Talk:Timur

Genocide
Do you think that the category is appropriate? On Category:Genocide perpetrators I see historic personages like Attila and Genghis Khan. However the terminology is apparently new. Otherwise I'll revert back. Beshogur (talk) 16:35, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

A genocide is defined as "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group." Systematic killing of populations as performed by Timur in several cases, including Delhi, Armenian territories, etc. corresponds to the definition of genocide. It shall be referenced as such for the sake of consistency.

The sources regarding the estimates of victims of Timur's campaigns are missing and shall be completed. Here are the three most recent and recognised references: - In "The History of the Mongol Conquests", John Joseph Saunders (1971) the author estimates that Timur's conquests caused the death of 17 Million victims. - In "Tamerlane: Sword of Islam, Conqueror of the World", the author Justin Marozzi (2004) estimates that Timur's conquests caused the death of 20 Million victims. - In "Armies of the Ottoman Turks, 1300–1774.", the author David Nicolle (1983) estimates that Timur's conquests caused the death of 17 Million victims.

The figures mentioned in the summary shall be updated to 20 Million as the higher limit. Suggested wording would be: "Estimates vary from 1 to 20 million with several Historian estimating the total number of victims to be around 17 Millions." with the above mentioned sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by As97wiki (talk • contribs) 18:03, 25 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Helen Fein, one of the editors of Teaching About Genocide, is described as a scholar specializing in genocide on her Wikipedia page. In addition, the page Genocides in history (before World War I) has a section about Timur's campaigns that cites sources labeling them genocidal. CJ-Moki (talk) 22:49, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

just checked that, it's poorly sourced actually, page nrs are not even present. Beshogur (talk) 04:55, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2023
(The claim that Timur gave himself the title "gurugen" or "son-in-law" could be mistaken with the title "Gur-khan" that was assumed by non-royal blood kings of Mongols. First, in the Secret History of Mongols, Jamukha a non-royal blood given himself the title "Gur-Khan", while Temujin assumed "Chingiz-Khan". Second, Chingizid king Ligdan khan from the 16th century addressed himself as Chingiz-Khan in a letter he sent to Nurkhachi baatar of Manchuria. Third in the Mongolian language someone giving himself the title gurugen or son-in-law is unintelligible considering that mongolian language mostly kept its originality since 13th century. Sarahyoungasian (talk) 03:01, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * This has nothing to do with gurkhan, which comes from Turkic kür (whole). Gurkan is Persianized version of Mongol khüregen (хүргэн). I don't understand what's the issue here? Beshogur (talk) 14:49, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Nashville whiz (talk) 10:37, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Tamerlane
No one uses Timur. Why is this article using this name. Are we going to change Plato to "Platonas", write Napoleon with an "é"? this is ridiculous. can we proceed to a name change? 212.72.139.134 (talk) 09:41, 8 July 2023 (UTC)


 * No. Beshogur (talk) 09:49, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Year of Birth
Why is the year of Timur's date of birth listed as 1336 in the infobox, but 1325 at the beginning of the article? I can't edit the page as it is semi-protected. Thanks! 2600:6C64:5800:2B4:D0DD:428:66BC:8B03 (talk) 17:27, 1 September 2023 (UTC)


 * can you elaborate your edits? Beshogur (talk) 18:09, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Beshogur @2600:6C64:5800:2B4:D0DD:428:66BC:8B03 Hello, I have made changes to the beginning because in the subsection regarding the origins of Timur, the date traditionally provided in both primary sources is heavily criticized by a scholar who suggests a more plausible date between 325/330. AgisdeSparte (talk) 22:59, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I can't see 1325 either. Where did you get this number? Beshogur (talk) 09:57, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * 1336, although fabricated, is the most accepted birth date. I don't see 1325 as a consensus among scholars. Beshogur (talk) 10:08, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Death toll
Did Timur really kill 17 million people? That is, 5% of the world's population at the time? The source appears to be a 1999 Chicago Tribune article, but the figure seems very hard to believe. It's an incredible figure for 14th-century weapons. I am removing it. No precise figure should be added without a better source than that.

Semi-protected edit request on 20 November 2023
He was not muslim, He is Nasiry one of the Shia. According to all scholars of Islam, He ruled with genkiz khan rules only and he wasn't a muslim. Please fix it 41.37.133.94 (talk) 16:34, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * No WP:RS to support this. Also, Shias are also Muslim, see Shia Islam. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:28, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Timur Was half Turkic half Iranian according to the sources . He was known himself as the Shahanshah of Iran and Turan
Timur ancestors were From Barlas tribe which are from Eastern turks like Uygurs & Karluks. But his mother is Iranian and according to his forged family tree for his mother he connects his mother blood line to Epic Iranian Shah of Shahnameh (book of the kings) Mannouchehr. According to his letters to Muzaffarids he claims the Throne of Iran clearly and suggests to Muzaffarids to Open the the way for the Dignity of Iran (Timur). 3rd document about Iranian Prajudice of Timur is his biography book by the pen of his Iranian Lord Chancellor Nizam-i-din Shami who was originally from Tabriz. Inside Zafarnamah on page 10 in the last Paragraph he writes a Poem for timur and Calls him Shah_e_Darvishdoost means king protector of people and serfs Then the author proceeds and says Iran and Turan are under his Command. Here's the original poem : Tony.k95 (talk) 06:31, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * do you know what the word "forged" means? &#126;~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:41, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Epithet
@Beshogur It seems to be reliably attested in many sources, not sure what you mean "given by whom?" (Referring to the epithet). Noorullah (talk) 02:22, 3 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Can we compare this to Sahib-i Qiran? I wonder what's the original version of this, if you can provide it. Beshogur (talk) 15:23, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Beshogur Sure, I can try to look for it. As of now, I've only seen it in WP:RS secondary sources. Noorullah (talk) 16:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I mean, not to disrespect you, but these kind of names were given to all kind of tyrants. I'm not sure how appropriate this is since, Timur doesn't even identify like that unlike "Lord of Aspicious Conjuction". Beshogur (talk) 19:47, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Religion
There is a little evidence that He was Sunni but not all of historians consider him as Sunni, Sunni Historians in Ottoman and Mamlukid Empires like Ibn Khaldun and Ibn Arabshah consider him as Rafedi even his allience with Christians in the west against Ottomans, Mamlukids and even Abbasid Caliphate in Cairo is similar to Safavid allience with The west, more important that ibn Khaldun in his memoirs narrated that He don't respect Abbas and his household even He only respect Ali and his household, His destroying and lotting of Damascus, and even some historians notes that He has destroyed Mu'awiyah's tomb all of this will let us consider him as Pro-Shia even if He don't curse 3 Caliphs and even if we don't consider him as main sect of Twelvers thought his era was full of Pro-Shia Sufis who considers all of the Twelve Imams as true caliphs of Islam even Timurids in an unknown considered their dynasty as Alid Dynasty back to Muhammad ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib and the tomb stone of Timur is an evidence for that Alid connection with Alanqua and this Alid ancestor is a mysterious one, maybe they once considered him as the Twelfth Imam himself not a descendant of Muhammad ibn al Hanafiyah the famous Hero in middle ages. 94.252.141.71 (talk) 15:04, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Any reliable sources to match the "Religious views" section? &#126;~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:12, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Reverted Edit
@Beshogur Hello, I hope your doing fine and enjoying a nice time. Could you tell me why you reverted my edit on Timur Khan GamerHashaam (talk) 05:06, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Although I am not Beshogur, I suspect it's because an 1859 translation of a medieval text is not a reliable source, and because a narrative which involves Timur somehow teleporting from the Oxus to Sistan to the Arabian Sea in 1362, when he was nothing more than a warlord, is complete nonsense. &#126;~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:22, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, these stories are nonsense. Like Chechens defeating him, etc. Beshogur (talk) 11:55, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Its a medival text GamerHashaam (talk) 15:00, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If I am correct then the translation was from 1859 and at the time balochs didn't know English and per sandeman despatches they conserved in hindustani with him to communciate meaning the book was translated by a British scholar at the time GamerHashaam (talk) 15:04, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Sir Clements Robert Markham translated the page not to mention that Baluch Nationalism started in 1920s and 1930s thus I don't think it is biased not to mention that it was published by Hakluyt Society GamerHashaam (talk) 15:10, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If I remenber correctly at the time he served in Iran? GamerHashaam (talk) 15:01, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Sir Clements Robert Markham translated the page not to mention that Baluch Nationalism started in 1920s and 1930s thus I don't think it is biased not to mention that it was published by Hakluyt Society GamerHashaam (talk) 15:10, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Would you care to rewrite your comments so they are a) intelligible and b) in one paragraph, rather than five seperate comments? Really helps with collaboration. &#126;~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:13, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Alright
 * If I am correct then the translation was from 1859 and at the time balochs didn't know English and per sandeman despatches they conserved in hindustani with him to communciate meaning the book was translated by a British scholar at the time.Sir Clements Robert Markham translated the page not to mention that Baluch Nationalism started in 1920s and 1930s thus I don't think it is biased not to mention that it was published by Hakluyt Society. GamerHashaam (talk) 15:51, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * ...okay? Still doesn't change the basic fact that an 1859 translation of a medieval text which claims that Timur managed to teleport from the Oxus to Sistan to the Arabian Sea in 1362, when he was no more than a warlord, is nothing less than nonsense. &#126;~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:57, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Nah, he is right. I also saw Timur teleported. 46.221.150.123 (talk) 13:51, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * By about 1360, Timur had gained prominence as a military leader whose troops were mostly Turkic tribesmen of the region. He took part in campaigns in Transoxiana with the Khan of the Chagatai Khanate. Allying himself both in cause and by family connection with Qazaghan, the dethroner and destroyer of Volga Bulgaria, he invaded Khorasan at the head of a thousand horsemen. This was the second military expedition that he led, and its success led to further operations, among them the subjugation of Khwarazm and Urgench. GamerHashaam (talk) 04:08, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * According to the wiki page in 1360 Timur lead 1000 horsemen to invade Persia and he might as well headed for sistan most likely the northern region of zaboul GamerHashaam (talk) 04:07, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Beshogur@AirshipJungleman29 I am awaiting a response otherwise I would need to revert the edit, I request you to respond in 24 hours GamerHashaam (talk) 18:31, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I believe you did get a good response. Ruy González de Clavijo lived in the 13-14th centuries. Please see WP:RS, WP:PST, WP:AGEMATTERS and WP:SCHOLARSHIP. HistoryofIran (talk) 18:39, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * "he might as well headed for sistan most likely the northern region of zaboul" oh I see we've decided to completely forgotten about the source saying he reached the Arabian Sea. Anyone mind explaining how? "Well, he might have headed into central Sistan, and then he might have headed into southern Sistan, and then he might have headed south of southern Sistan, and then he might have reached the sea, and then he might have teleported back again." &#126;~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 07:23, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Perhaps he found Aladdin's flying carpet at the Arabian sea! @AirshipJungleman29 Noorullah (talk) 19:26, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * In his childhood, Timur and a small band of followers raided travelers for goods, especially animals such as sheep, horses, and cattle. Around 1363, it is believed that Timur tried to steal a sheep from a shepherd but was shot by two arrows, one in his right leg and another in his right hand, where he lost two fingers. Both injuries disabled him for life. Some believe that these injuries occurred while serving as a mercenary to the khan of Sistan in what is today the Dashti Margo in southwest Afghanistan. Timur's injuries and disability gave rise to the nickname "Timur the Lame" or Temūr(-i) Lang in Persian, which is the origin of Tamerlane, the name by which he is generally known in the West.
 * this is from the offical wiki page Timur GamerHashaam (talk) 19:30, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks for remembering which page we're discussing. Would you mind remembering where the Arabian Sea is ? &#126;~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:01, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Its on the coast of Baluchistan, Sindh and Part of Gujarat GamerHashaam (talk) 16:16, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Indeed. More to the point, it's 1000km away from Zaboul. &#126;~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:25, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 863 km and 8 days of walking can get you there like from zaboul to chah bahar GamerHashaam (talk) 18:10, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Excellent use of Google. Now that I know you're capable of reasoned thought, would you mind reading the links HistoryofIran posted above? Thanks. &#126;~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:19, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Ruy González de Clavijo is a third party to this source meaning he is neutral rather then pro timur or pro baloch, also I would like you to present some sources contradicting him which could imply the source of his work is unreliable for now. GamerHashaam (talk) 18:36, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It does not matter if he is a third party. He was a Castilian who spent two months in Samarkand in 1404. That means he is not a reliable source. If you want to know why, read the links above. &#126;~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:07, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * of course to document he has to spent time there GamerHashaam (talk) 21:40, 27 June 2024 (UTC)