Talk:Trafalgar Square/Archive 1

Move
WTF? Is there a rational reason for this move? Tannin

Seconded - you got here before me. Does anyone know of any other Trafalgar Square that's likely to merit an article? Deb 14:34 May 4, 2003 (UTC)

Edith Cavell
To the north of the square just where St Martin's joins Charing + road, there's a statue of a woman, 1930s style -- can someone find out who it is and who she was? -- Tarquin 15:44 May 4, 2003 (UTC)
 * [[image:trafalgarsqu.canadahse.arp.750pix.jpg|thumb|right|250px|Trafalgar Square ميدان تلفرجار بقلب لندت ]]


 * this one? --rbrwr

Yes! Wow. that was fast! Let's have an article on Edith Cavell, I've been wondering who she was every time I pass that statue -- Tarquin 17:01 May 4, 2003 (UTC)


 * Why didn't you look her up on wikipedia??? Deb 09:55 May 5, 2003 (UTC)

Pics
The square with clouds pic epitomizes the square best IMHO, it should be the one at the top. Stan 15:08, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Done! (and the leans straightened) - Adrian Pingstone 21:05, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * I was thinking top of the whole article actually - the panorama is amusing, but to me panoramas are more for extended study in conjunction with detailed text; they don't have the "grok at a glance" character that one wants from the first picture in an article. Stan 05:32, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Agreed, Stan. The moves have been done - Adrian Pingstone 14:45, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * I disagree, the photo I took which is at the top, is more of sky and the skyline than giving an idea of what the square looks like. Although the panorama is not perfect, it gives the best impression of what the square is like to someone who's never been there. What we really need is a shot from the top of St. Martin's of the National Gallery. ed g2s  &bull;  talk  14:53, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Pigeons
O/T: There are now relatively few birds in the Square, enabling it to be used for festivals, and hired out to film companies, in a way that was not feasible in the 1990s.

Huh? I thought it was the pigeons that made it a picturesque movie location. You want a token shot of a Londoner trudging through pigeons, you go to Trafalgar. Right? I suppose now they have to bring their own pigeons; how grand. - Keith D. Tyler &para; [ AMA ] June 28, 2005 20:55 (UTC)

It would be cool to at least have a link of one of those 3d panorama things you can do in quick time to look all around. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truth'soutthere (talk • contribs) 14:47, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:FAC?
Surely to goodness we can get this up to featured article standard relatively quickly? -- ALoan (Talk) 14:11, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Golden Cross House
Could mention of this be made, as it is just off Charing Cross: the Golden Cross, Charing Cross was one of the major Coaching inns of London.

Jackiespeel 18:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC) The Britanic Lions deserve a place here. This "compatible 3D" image is far easier to see without the required glassess than regular 3d technique. Please let it stay for a while, as children love 3D, and tend to have the glasses to see the effect.3dnatureguy 05:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)Would this smaller lion picture be allowed to stay.My kids loved those lions more than anything else in the square. The direct observation about young people sitting with the lions is left out.Nativeborncal 06:05, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Centre of London
Are distances really measured from Charing Cross? I was told by a traffic Policeman at my school that distances to and from London were taken from Hyde Park Corner.136.250.232.88 08:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC) Robruss24 08:47, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Dating postcard of Trafalgar Square
I am trying to date a postcard of Trafalgar Square. It has a statue of a horseman in front of Nelson's Column with a roadway between the two. There is a light pole in front of the horseman with four lights on separate arms. The roads are gravel and there are horse drawn buses. Is it possible to find the date when the roads were sealed? I would be grateful for any information regarding the date of my postcard. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.246.249.172 (talk) 13:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC). Sorry I forgot to sign. 60.246.248.86Faye (Melbourne,Australia)

Spring Gardens
The article on the Metropolitan Board of Works states that it was based in Spring Gardens, near Trafalgar Square: what became of the street?

Jackiespeel 18:04, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Street is still there, near Admiralty Arch. Probably too small for most maps. Paulbrock 03:45, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

E.Landseer's Lions?
Hi... not even up to getting into this but... seems E. Landseer's sculptures of lions are also in the square, thought they (and he) might be considered significant enough for inclusion?

Just a suggestion... --JT 19:49, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed I came here expecting to see information on thisOxyman 23:22, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

VE Day
I've removed the statement "A diary extract told how a father took his three children and wife to Trafalgar Square, and they all held on to a piece of washing line so they didn't get lost in the massive crowd." as I can find an online reference for it - can anyone help so it can be reincluded? Paulbrock 16:40, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Lions with dogs' feet
"The lion's feet are modeled after dog feet as Sir Edwin had never actually seen a lion". I've removed this statement from the main page, as I've found conflicting references, that mention Edwin having access to dead Lions from the zoo. Some refs do mention dogs' feet but they may well have got this from here... Paulbrock 17:37, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

GA Review
This article seems to meet the criteria for Good Article and I will review it formally, but I have a suggestion: there seem to be a lot of images for an article this size (see WP:MOS. Consider either a queue (see WP:IUP) or a gallery (see WP:PIC). Also, consider putting images like the fourth plinth photo next to that section.  These are only suggestions, but I think they comport with guidelines and will help this article be GA.   Argos '  Dad  01:10, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Queued Images
I've moved these from the main article, please return them as appropriate when the amount of text justifies their inclusion. Paulbrock 19:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Successful good article nomination
I am glad to say that this article which was nominated for good article status has succeeded. This is how the article, as of June 21, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:


 * 1. Well written?: prose is good, clear and concise
 * 2. Factually accurate?: article is well-referenced and accurate
 * 3. Broad in coverage?: the topic ios completely covered
 * 4. Neutral point of view?: no issues of POV
 * 5. Article stability? article is not subject to revert wars
 * 6. Images?: all are free or appropriately tagged and used

If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status. — Argos '  Dad  21:03, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Anti War Picture
One of the users added a picture of a rally in the Square, and the caption given is "Anti War Rally". Upon close examination, one of the signs there reads "Free Palestine Victory to the Intifada". Without discussing the political merits of these statements, this is clearly not an Anti-War Rally. These demonstrators are not calling upon their government to stop fighting in some foreign war. Intifada means armed revolt or resistance. They are rather calling upon people or governments in the Middle East to gather arms and wage a war against Israel, to violently achieve their political goals. Again, I am not contesting the political message of this rally - just that it is not Anti War. Pro War or Anti Israel would be a more appropriate caption. --PowerToKnow 17:52, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Other signs read "stop this bloody war" and Socialist Workers' Party. I suspect that the demonstration in question was indeed an anti-war one, but attracted other protesters with their own agendas. I have changed the caption, at any rate, since you're right about the cognitive dissonance of the old one. Doops | talk 21:36, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Statuesque
Who designed the Nelson statue? (I've heard it was E.H. Baily.) Worth a mention? Trekphiler 17:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Missing information
Who or what actually owns Trafalgar Square? Several sources on the web talk about Trafalgar Square as private property, but which of organisation or person(s)? This is often referred to in conjunction with the prohibition of commercial photography without the payment of a substantial fee, a fact not mentioned or explained in the article. TwoMightyGodsPersuasionNecessity 17:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Copyright?
I choose to post here, as this could potentially prohibit any licensing which allows commercial use of an image which was taken in Trafalgar Square, London. Obviously, this could ruin the article a little.

A Greater London Authority byelaw publication explicitly states:

Acts within the Squares for which written permission is required 5. / [...] / (11) take photographs or any other recordings of visual images for the purpose of or in connection with a business, trade, profession or employment or any activity carried on by a person or body or persons, whether corporate or unincorporate;

Now, there's obviously no problem in licensing any image such that it can't be used commercially (but this is prohibited in Wikipedia). But I wonder if a commercial licence is used, is it valid (or legal)? Or, is the licensing legal despite the explicit (or implicit) allowance of commercial use, but it only illegal to actually use it commercially. If the latter is the case, then no need to panic, but it might be worth noting it on image descriptions. Ian ¹³ /t  19:49, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think the byelaw poses a problem for Wikipedia. A person who takes photographs and licenses them under a free licence to Wikipedia (or the Wikimedia Commons) isn't taking the photographs "for the purpose of or in connection with a business", etc. If someone else subsequently decided to download the images from Wikipedia and to use them commercially, that isn't covered by the byelaw. What may also be worth noting is that the byelaw makes taking photographs of "an activity carried on by a person or body of persons" illegal without GLA consent. This means that if I do not seek the GLA's prior permission but take a photograph of, say, a demonstration taking place at Trafalgar Square, or even a performance artist, that is in breach of the byelaw. However, I believe that Wikipedia is not really concerned about whether the manner in which you obtain images is legal or not, only whether you license them to Wikipedia correctly. — Cheers, Truth's Out There  –talk– 19:11, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

French has appeared in the article
I have removed this chunk of French language from the article. Do with it as you wish!

Le overview
La place se compose d'une grande zone centrale entourée par des chaussées de trois côtés, et des escaliers menant au National de l'autre. Les routes qui croisent le carré font partie de la très occupée route A4, et avant 2003, la place ont été entourées par un système de circulation unidirectionnelle de tous les côtés. Passage souterrain l'es attachée à station de métro en travers de Charing permettent toujours à des piétons d'éviter le trafic. Les travaux récents ont réduit la largeur des routes et ont fermé le côté nordique de la place pour trafiquer. La colonne de Nelson est au centre de la place, entouré par des fontaines conçues près Lutyens en 1939 et quatre bronze en bronze lion s énorme sculpted près Sir Edwin Landseer d'Edwin ; on dit que le métal utilisé est réutilisé du canon de la flotte française. La colonne est complétée par a statue de Lord Nelson, amiral qui a commandé la flotte britannique chez Trafalgar. Du côté du nord de la place est National et à son est des Martin-dans-le-Champs de rue l'église. La place se touche The de mail (Londres) par l'intermédiaire de voûte d'Amirauté au sud-ouest. Aux sud est Whitehall, à l'est Strand et Chambre de l'Afrique du Sud, au nord route en travers de Charing et du côté occidental est Chambre du Canada. Aux coins de la place sont quatre plinth s ; deux les nordiques ont été prévus pour être employés pour statue équestre s, et sont ainsi plus larges que les deux méridionaux. Trois d'entre eux prise statue s : George IV (nord-est du Royaume-Uni, 1840s), Henry Havelock (sud-est, 1861, près William Behnes), et monsieur Charles James Napier (sud-ouest, 1855). Maire de Londres Ken Livingstone a de façon controversée exprimé un désir de voir les deux généraux remplacés avec les statues que « Londoners ordinaire connaîtrait ». dedans 1888 la statue du général Charles George Gordon a été érigée. Dans 1943 la statue a été enlevé et, dedans 1953, re-situé sur remblai de Victoria. La place est devenue un endroit social et politique symbolique énormément important pour des visiteurs et Londoners semblable, se développant au-dessus de son histoire de « esplanade peuple avec des figures des héros nationaux, dans le premier  de politique d'endroit du  du pays, » comme l'historien macis de Rodney a écrit. Son importance symbolique a été démontrée dedans 1940 quand Nazi des solides solubles des plans secrets développés pour transférer la colonne de Nelson Berlin à suivre German une invasion prévue, comme relié près Longmate normand dans le  si la Grande-Bretagne avait le  tombé (1972).

- Adrian Pingstone 13:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Well it looks like someone doing an in place translation by accident. The French block replaced the original Overview section, so I've reverted to an earlier version to correct that. From my rough knowledge of French, the translation looks plausible. Since the fr.wiki version of the article is quite basic, it would probably be worth sending a copy over there. -- Solipsist 15:55, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I've posted it to "fr:Discuter:Trafalgar Square". — Cheers, Truth's Out There  –talk– 05:33, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Top gear using the forth plinth
i can't offer any citations, but i wanted to put the mention out there, providing it hasn't already been covered.

i seem to recall an episode of the show top gear, i think in it's current run, with Richard Hammond being involved as a champion of Land Rovers. from what i remember, during the time that the plinth was as yet awaiting usage, they decided to commemorate Land Rovers by arriving and placing a small scale model of an original series land rover on top.

i've no idea if it stayed or was removed or what happened, any one who's been watching the channel Dave will surely have seen it, or else maybe someone remembers it from being on tv.

i hope i haven't concocted the whole thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.23.56.12 (talk) 22:24, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

No idea if it's true or not but doesn't sound like something particularly noteworthy in the history of TS? Paulbrock (talk) 01:31, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism
Somebody has vandalised this page with "it has bene a wiered thing for most people it looks like nothing important to. lol" can this be repaired? Sorry, don't know how —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.153.196.225 (talk) 20:37, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * ✅. I've reverted the vandalism. Thanks for pointing it out. — Cheers, Truth's Out There  –talk– 06:55, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Area
I came across this edit to the hectare page and had a look around for some confirmation. There is no info in Trafalgar Square about its area or dimensions. Any chances? Bleakcomb (talk) 21:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Edward Jenner
The article as it now stands (17th April 2010) contains an erroneous assertion that the 'fourth plinth' once held the statue of Edward Jenner. It references an editorial in the BMJ that has now had a correction published to it. I submitted the following in relation to the BMJ editorial and it is published in the online BMJ in full (as below) and in the print version of the BMJ of 13th April 2010. Can it be corrected?

"Over 200 years ago Edward Jenner developed an effective form of vaccination against the scourge of smallpox. In 2009 the World Health Organization (WHO) celebrated the 30th anniversary of the eradication of smallpox. Unfortunately, the threat of smallpox has not been completely removed. Stocks of the virus are still held in two centers, in Russia and the USA, and there is continued uncertainty over its ownership. The World Health Organization has built up a smallpox vaccine emergency stockpile of 32.6 million doses and in England there are plans in place to respond should there be a credible threat of an outbreak.

In 2003 a colleague and I proposed in the Lancet the removal of Calder Marshal’s statue of Edward Jenner from the Italian Garden in Kensington Gardens, where it has rested since 1862, and its restoration to Trafalgar Square. (1) In his Editorial reprising our proposition Williams states incorrectly that the famous ‘empty plinth’ in the North West corner of the Square started its life supporting the Jenner statue. (2) This plinth was however erected in 1841 and was designed for an equestrian figure that never materialized. The Jenner statue was erected in Trafalgar Square in 1858 on a site in the South West corner of the Square adjacent to the statue of Sir Charles Napier and is shown in a contemporary drawing of the Square in this position. (3)

I now believe that there are two good reasons why the statue of Jenner should be left where it is. Firstly, the statue is not a particularly impressive commemoration of such a benefactor of humanity. Certainly it can’t compare with the striking statue in Genoa by Monteverde showing Jenner vaccinating his own son. Secondly, as Warren Winkelstein suggests in a letter in response to our original piece, the very beautiful ponds and fountains of the Italian Garden surely constitute a more appropriate and tranquil location for the great man. (4)

1	Scally G, Oliver I. Putting Jenner back in his place. Lancet 2003; 362: 1092.

2	Williams G. Put Edward Jenner back in Trafalgar Square. BMJ 2010; 340: c1582.

3	Epsom J. Little honoured in his own country: statues in recognition of Edward Jenner MD FRS. J R Soc Med 1996; 89: 514-8.

4	Winklestein W. Putting Jenner back in his place. Lancet 2003; 362: 1942." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.181.61.201 (talk) 17:53, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

New panorama - an improvement?
Hi. I don't want to upset anyone, and I am not confident enough of my own judgement in this matter to revert it, but I must question whether this edit is actually an improvement. Personally I thought the previous panorama was clearer, and I liked the fact that it showed the whole of Nelson's Column. In comparison I find the new image a bit dark, and harder to understand. But it might just be me. What do you think? Best wishes DBaK (talk) 11:50, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, as the photographer of the previous panorama, I agree with you - it's darker, not as sharp, and doesn't have nearly the same vertical angle of view, so the column is cropped out. This happens a lot. I would welcome people replacing my images if they were genuinely superior, but most of the time they're replaced with something fairly poor, with no explanation in the edit summary, and I'm left with the impression that they are added purely out of vanity. I'll go ahead and revert the change. I'd be happy to discuss it further here, but I don't think its really necessary to wait for their input. &#208;iliff    «»  (Talk)  20:07, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I can appreciate the constructive discussion on my picture... but vanity? I added it based on it seeming to me to be a fuller picture, and wanting to provide what looked like a fuller panorama (minus the top of Nelson's Column).  No need to do a "who's is better" type deal, as I was merely trying to improve something... but yea, thanks for the vote of confidence in my "poor" picture... --User:StevieY19  —Preceding undated comment added 21:30, 4 July 2010 (UTC).
 * Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you personally, but as I said above, this tends to happen fairly often. What exactly do you mean by 'fuller'? The existing panorama was wider in vertical angle-of-view, was taken on a slightly nicer day, didn't have stitching faults... Call me biased, but I'm not sure where the improvement was in your image. &#208;iliff    «»  (Talk)  22:13, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I was looking at it from a first completed perspective. Looking between the two, the original is better.  Didn't see stitching faults either, but that's just me.  The weather was obviously nicer, ditto on the vertical angle. --User:StevieY19  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.114.90.16 (talk) 03:22, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Splitting fourth plinth into new article?
I think the fourth plinth justifies its own article. I would be willing to do this. What do folks think? 86.178.52.148 (talk) 20:37, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * In fact I'm in the process of doing that now. A bit messy but I'm getting there [note: I am the above IP] :) Egg Centric (talk) 21:25, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Why no mention of its bombing in WWII?
According to history.com, the square was bombed and they have a picture, courtesy of Corbis images. Providing a link to the actual picture and caption is difficult, but can be done if you're persistant. The link is here. Select Europe & Africa then the Battle of Britain. You'll now have three things to select from and again, select Battle of Britain. Finally select the 8th picture, or third to the last. It's history is important! MagnoliaSouth (talk) 22:36, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

File:Trafalgar Square 360 Panorama Cropped Sky, London - Jun 2009.jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Trafalgar Square 360 Panorama Cropped Sky, London - Jun 2009.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on March 15, 2011. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2011-03-15. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks!  howcheng  {chat} 21:20, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Birdseye view?
The article has some great photos! An overhead view would really add to it, if any Londoners can manage that. ʝungle jill  19:11, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I halfheartedly added this image of the Legoland Windsor Trafalgar Square, which should ideally be replaced by an image of the real square. ʝungle  jill  19:24, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Not a Borough
The City of Westminster is NOT a borough of Greater London. It was created in 1965 and it is a CITY of equal status as the City of London. The CofW has its own governing council and is responsible for streets and parks and everything under the usual jurisdiction of a city. Provincial Londoners may WANT to call it something else but it is the heart and soul of the governance of the United Kingdom. Dangnad (talk) 02:41, 6 November 2013 (UTC)


 * City status in the United Kingdom is a purely titular honour. The City of Westminster has no more and no less power because of its city status than any other London borough. Marnanel (talk) 23:46, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

The Queen in Right of the Crown

 * Trafalgar Square is owned by the Queen in Right of the Crown

Is there something we can link "the Queen in Right of the Crown" to? Is it different from being owned by the Crown Estate? Marnanel (talk) 01:47, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Trafalgar Square is administered by the GLA; I had presumed that they owned the land as well... Paulbrock (talk) 13:41, 22 April 2015 (UTC)


 * It's legal fiction; I've added a footnote to the article to explain it. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  16:56, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Feral Pigeons?
Can someone fix the line on the top paragraph... "It was well known for its feral pigeons until their removal in the early-21st century."

I doubt this is real or factual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.29.206.150 (talk) 02:53, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Obviously my time machine is not working, so you cannot borrow it to verify this, but I walked across Trafalgar Square more than a few times trying to avoid the pigeon poo. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  09:35, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Trafalgar Commemoration Parade
I think it's worth mentioning the annual Trafalgar Parade held by the Sea Cadets (www.youtube.com/watch?v=555SK1m5jBc?t=6m22s) as one of the Square's major events. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.148.216.139 (talk) 17:25, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Done. (Sorry about the wait) Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  09:41, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

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