Talk:Vyatka Land

Did you know nomination
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disambiguation from Vyatka and other links
Please could you check I have linked right from Vyatka thanks

Maybe https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4532145 worth a link

"Vyatka Land" or "Vyatka land" or just "Vyatka"?
I guess you should follow the 2017 English source Chidgk1 (talk) 14:31, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Should the infobox here be "subdivision"?
Also presumably you should edit the infobox in Vyatka Governorate to show this article as the predecessor? Maybe also explain how related to https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%8F%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%BE Chidgk1 (talk) 14:37, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

source?
, do you have sources for your claim that Vyatka land was a "tribal society beyond the northeastern borders of Kievan Rus'"? The sources in the article seem to consider it a part of Rus, e.g., Feldbrudgge The settlers founded an independent republic and Novgorod, despite several attempts, was never able to establish its authority in this faraway corner of the Russian North. Alaexis¿question? 20:18, 15 February 2023 (UTC)


 * 'Russian North' is a modern term. I would take that to mean the north of the Russian Federation, which did not exist yet in medieval times (nor did "Kirov Oblast", for example). I think we should avoid anachronisms. I read the article carefully, compared several maps, and concluded this area was never part of Kievan Rus'. E.g. File:Kievan-rus-1015-1113-(en).png, showing the greatest extent of Kievan Rus' around 1100 (excluding Vyatka Land), and File:Rus-1389.png, the map included in this article, from a time when Kievan Rus' no longer existed, and the Novgorod Republic was expanding northwards and eastwards beyond the borders of former Kievan Rus' (including Vyatka Land). That's how I came up with this geographic description. If reputable literature characterises it as a 'republic' rather than a 'tribal society', then feel free to correct me. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:09, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, I'd like to thank you for writing this article in the first place! It is very interesting and well-written. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:44, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your kind words! Regarding the lede, I think you are right that we can't say that it was part of Kievan Rus. However the sources do describe it as Russian, in the sense of belonging to Rus' (Русь), so I think we can safely use it. I've tried to reword the lede, please take a look. I'm not against describing it as a republic in the lede, however I like it a bit less since we know very little about the form of government of Vyatka. Alaexis¿question? 19:23, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Well, as you say, there is very little information about what Vyatka Land really was like. I've tried looking it up in English-language sources on Google Scholar and Google Books, but it doesn't result in much except saying that it was originally inhabited by Udmurt people who tried to stay independent from Muscovy. Most English sources appear to be poor translations of older Russian ones. Luppov and Kostomarov are comparatively outdated. Unfortunately there isn't much else.
 * I do wonder in what sense we should consider Vyatka Land part of Rus'; that would depend on what we mean by Rus'. As far as I can tell from the literature, Rus' refers to essentially three things:
 * the Rus' people: a medieval mixture of Varangians, early Slavs, Finno-Ugric tribes and others;
 * Kievan Rus': a state that existed in Eastern Europe from the 9th to 13th century; and
 * the Rus' principalities: any of the principalities of Kievan Rus' which were ruled by a local branch of the Rurikid dynasty and became independent before or upon its disintegration in the 13th century.
 * No. #1 doesn't seem to apply; we're talking about a place, not a people. Even if we did, it was initially mostly inhabited by Udmurt/Permian/Komi people (Uralic), and the Rus' settlers (Slavic) from the southwest only came around the 12th century (in the waning days of Kievan Rus'). To define a place according to a group of immigrants who have yet to arrive seems a bit of a stretch.
 * You agreed with me that No. #2 does not apply either; this region was beyond the borders of Kievan Rus'.
 * Finally, was Vyatka Land ever a Rus' principality? Well, it did not originate within Kievan Rus' as a principality, it does not seem to have gained its independence from another Rus' principality (e.g. Muscovy gained independence from Vladimir-Suzdal, which gained independence from Rostov, which gained independence from Kievan Rus'), it did not have a local branch of the Rurikid dynasty as its ruling house etc. In fact, if it is true that it was a 'republic', it might not have had any dynastic head of state either, just like the Novgorod Republic and the Pskov Republic. However, these latter two at one point did have a Rurikid dynastic prince, they were founded by Rus' people and were part of Kievan Rus'. Therefore, I don't think it makes much sense to label Vyatka Land Rus'. All I think we can say is something like Vyatka Land was located on the territory of what is now Russia. Compare the opening sentence of Novgorod Republic: The Novgorod Republic (Russian: Новгородская республика) was a medieval state that existed from the 12th to 15th centuries, stretching from the Gulf of Finland in the west to the northern Ural Mountains in the east, including the city of Novgorod and the Lake Ladoga regions of modern Russia. It doesn't say The Novgorod Republic was a medieval Russian state / Rus' state / part of medieval Rus', even though Novgorod arguably has a far better claim to that than Vyatka Land has. Let's avoid anachronisms. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 00:02, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * These are good points, I'll respond later. Alaexis¿question? 17:21, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The guiding principle of Wikipedia is to follow the reliable sources. In our cases the reliable sources don't have any doubts that the independent Vyatka was part of Russia
 * Rus - Ukraine - Russia: Scenes from the Cultural History of Russian Religiosity by Martin Putna, p. 137 Like Pskov and Vyatka, two cities of Russia's north, Novgorod became something like an Orthodox republic
 * Russia. A history by Ian Gray, [Vyatka's] continued independence stood as an obstacle to the unification of Russia
 * Feldbrugge (cited in the article) The settlers founded an independent republic and Novgorod, despite several attempts, was never able to establish its authority in this faraway corner of the Russian North.
 * It doesn't mean that we necessarily have to call it Russian in the very first sentence, but not mentioning it at all in the lede would do a disservice to the reader. Alaexis¿question? 20:38, 26 February 2023 (UTC)