Template talk:Culture of Poland

Image
I like the Stanczyk. Raczko's image was an improvement on what was there before, but I do think Stanczyk captures a lot about Polish culture much better. Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:51, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Silently substituting one template for another
In the last two weeks User:ClaretAsh – who joined the project from Australia in October 2010 – created a new Template:Culture of region on top of an already existing Template:Region culture. There was no discussion at any of the relevant portals i.e. Portal:Contents/Culture and the arts, Portal:Culture, or the country-specific portals such as our own WT:WikiProject Poland. He used Romania as the base for his new creation. Why Romania? Then, without as much as a word of introduction, he replaced the long existing Template:Culture of Poland with his own new template using a misleading edit summary "(Updating sidebar)" as if there was anything wrong with the old one. As a result, some arbitrary red links showed up at our template, with no relevance whatsoever to subjects already covered by our community such as Traditions of Poland, Festivals of Poland, Performing arts of Poland, Monuments of Poland; not to mention, the new pointless flagicon. What do you think? Poeticbent talk 16:11, 19 March 2012 (UTC) {| width="100%"
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 * width="40%" valign="top" |

Template used before:
Region culture
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Brand new replacement:

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 * Comment I shall deal with each of the points addressed above in turn.
 * First of all, can I ask why is it relevant when and from where I registered an account? My nationality and ethnicity is not relevant and to suggest that it is is very questionable. Are you saying it is relevant? Please be honest and tell me. Let's open that can of worms and see what happens.
 * Secondly, I did not create Culture of region on top of an already existing Region culture. They are quite separate, as the relevant histories will show.
 * I don't understand why a new template should be discussed at a portal. Notwithstanding the fact that portals and templates are completely different aspects of the Wikipedia project, the Portals at en.wiki have always been rather quiet parts of teh project, especially in recent times. As for querying at the country-specific WikiProjects, I suspect that if the users had noticed anything wrong with the existing sidebars, they would have fixed it already. In other words, that they haven't done much work with their respective templates suggests they don't see much that needs fixing. But I'll comment more on that later.
 * I don't know why you say I used Romania as a base. It's clearly labeled in the documentation as merely an example.
 * From where I stand, my edit summary was perfeectly adequate for such a routine edit as changing from an old sidebar to a newer model.
 * As for the redlinks, you might find that creating the articles (or redirecting to existing ones) might help. I've just done that myself for Mythology and Folklore. See how easy it is. Incidentally, it also shows how well you know your own topic as, clearly, they do have relevance to "subjects already covered by our community". Rest assured though, when I superseded the older versions of templates, I copied over the links, adding them to sections. Unless I felt a link to be completely irrelevant to a template about culture, or unless an existing link was already redlinked, all the article links were kept.
 * "Our template"? Seriously? Do you really want me to cite WP:OWN at you?
 * Please don't criticise me about the "pointless" flagicon. If you care to check the template code, you'll find it comes attached to portal-inline. For that matter, a review of the template history will also show that it wasn't me who added it.
 * As for what I think: I'm disappointed that you didn't notify me of this discussion. This may not be ANI or a similar discussion board but comon courtesy dictates that if you're going to discuss someone's editing, then you do the courageous thing and discuss it openly by notifying the user of your concerns. At no point, Poeticbent, have you discussed anything with me directly and at no point have you notified me that you've commenced this discussion. I also question why you'd open a discussion such as this, concerning as it does such a varied range of edits affecting so many articles, on the talk page of just one of the templates I've updated. If you have a problem with my editing, take it somewhere public such as ANI or RFCC, but first you should have discussed it with me first.

Now for the interesting part: 'Why did I supersede the existing templates?
 * The existing templates were based on several different meta-templates including region culture, navbox, sidebar, infobox and culturebox. Such a variety means that the respective templates all fail the principle of least astonishment. The end user simply did not know what to expect, especially so when we have cases such as Macau with its own set of sidebars completely different to anything else on WP. Also, for the editor, to have most of the "Template:Culture of X" templates as sidebars and for some to be navbars means the editor, upon selecting one, cannot know until it's opened whether it'll be a sidebar or a navbar. A reasonable person would expect that similarly named templates would be similarly structured. Incidentally, anyone who wants criticise me superseding Region culture would have to justify that template in turn superseding the older culturebox template. The only thing different I've done is to try to extend Culture of region across all relevant articles rather than just a few.
 * The existing templates were not deployed on similar articles. Some of the templates were on their respective "Music of..." articles but some weren't. Some of the templates were on their respective "Cuisine of..." articles but some weren't. Some of the templates were on their respective "Art of..." articles but some weren't. Most bizarre of all was that some of the templates hadn't even been transcluded to their respective "Culture of..." article. There were also at least two templates which had no transclusions at all, and I can think of one that was transcluded onto an article about a particular item of national costume but not onto the main article about clothing in that country.
 * Redlinks were mentioned above. However, may I re-emphasise that this is not a failing of the new template. Instead it highlights a (possible) shortage of articles. Even some of the earlier templates (which themselves appeared to be copied-and-pasted) were riddled with redlinks. An advantage of Culture of region is that gives a list of articles that should exist. In deploying the new template, I was not only disappointed to find how many countries did not have a relevant culture template but also how many lacked articles such as "Art of...", "Ethnic groups of...", "Festivals in..." and even "List of World Heritage Sites in...". I think the previous templates (Region culture especially) merely served to hide how many articles did not yet exist.
 * In going over each of the templates I've superseded, I also noticed a startling confusion therein between nationality and ethnicity. In several cases, the templates seem to have been modeled on the somewhat racist assumption that "one nation" = "one ethnic group". I question this state of affairs as it denies the possibility that people who don't speak a countries eponymous (dominant) language can contribute to that country's culture. That is blatantly racist, misleading and unencyclopedic.

All in all, the earlier templates were too varied in their bases to satisfy end-users expectations; they were too varied in their layout to satisfy the expectations of readers; they were not similarly deployed, again failing WP:ASTONISH; and, worse, by lacking a core listing of default articles, they served to hide a severe article shortage on WP. Overall, I think my work to deploy Culture of region has only improved the encyclopedia. If Poeticbent wishes a second opinion, though, I suggest he or she take it to a public forum such as WP:ANI or WP:RFCC where a greater diversity of opinion can be obtained. And don't forget to notify me.  Claret Ash  00:10, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Reply
{{Quotation|

Designing an infobox
It is a good idea to seek the opinions of other editors before embarking on a design of a new infobox or redesign of an existing one. Most requirements are already met by an existing infobox and most of the remainder can be met with a tweak. Unnecessary duplication leads to clutter and article divergence. Prototype your new design in your own user space. Once prototyped, propose the infobox changes to the appropriate WikiProject and gain consensus before deploying your new design in the template namespace.

For detailed guidance on how to design infoboxes, see Help:Designing infoboxes.
 * Help:Infobox}}

Below is the list of selected articles where Template:Culture of Poland is being used. Please look at the numbers. The least you could have done before silently embarking on this sort of major overhaul is to turn most of what you said above into a form letter and paste it here beforehand in order to initiate a discussion. Why didn't you do that? Poeticbent talk
 * Cinema of Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * History of Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Media of Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * List of Polish-language poets (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * List of Polish composers (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * List of Polish painters (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Polish literature (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Theatre of Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Music of Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Poles (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Young Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Sport in Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Poland/Periodization (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * List of Polish-language authors (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Positivism in Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Culture of Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Templates ‎ (links)
 * List of Polish musicians and musical groups (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Romanticism in Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Template:Culture of Poland sidebar (redirect page) ‎ (links)
 * Cinema of Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * List of Polish-language poets (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * List of Polish composers (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * List of Polish painters (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Polish literature (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Theatre of Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Music of Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Poles (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Young Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Talk:History of Lithuanian culture ‎ (links)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Poland/Periodization (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * List of Polish-language authors (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Positivism in Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Talk:Culture of Poland ‎ (links)
 * User talk:Appleseed ‎ (links)
 * List of Polish musicians and musical groups (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Romanticism in Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Enlightenment in Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Baroque in Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * User talk:Piotrus/Archive 6 ‎ (links)
 * List of Polish artists (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Renaissance in Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Culture of medieval Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Portal talk:Poland/Poland-related Wikipedia notice board/Archive 8 ‎ (links)
 * Socialist realism in Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Culture in modern Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Polish culture during World War II (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Polish culture in the Interbellum (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * List of Polish novelists (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Culture in the People's Republic of Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Template talk:Sidebar/Archive 1 ‎ (links)
 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Poland/Archive index ‎ (links)

and more. Poeticbent talk 02:15, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Enlightenment in Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Baroque in Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Template:Culture of Romania ‎ (links)
 * List of Polish artists (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Renaissance in Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Culture of medieval Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Poland ‎ (links)
 * Template:Culture of Croatia ‎ (links)
 * Socialist realism in Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Religion in Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Culture in modern Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Polish culture during World War II (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Template:Culture of Gibraltar ‎ (links)
 * Polish culture in the Interbellum (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * List of Polish novelists (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Culture in the People's Republic of Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)
 * Ethnic minorities in Poland (transclusion) ‎ (links)

Illustration.
Please respect the unspoken rules since every other template for European culture uses a national flag (arms for Belgium), not paintings/charts/photos/illustrations. No painting or photo can represent the broad variety of culture as such. Thank you. --Andrei (talk) 12:14, 31 May 2020 (UTC)