User talk:DGG/Archive 143 Dec. 2018

Tamar Bercovici
Hello, and thank you for the note at my Talk Page. I've asked for help at WikiProject Women in Red. Regards, Comte0 (talk) 14:49, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Bekir Fikri
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Bekir Fikri. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – December 2018
News and updates for administrators from the past month (November 2018). Administrator changes
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Technical news
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Arbitration
 * Voting in the 2018 Arbitration Committee Elections is open to eligible editors until Monday 23:59, 3 December 2018. Please review the candidates and, if you wish to do so, submit your choices on the voting page.

Miscellaneous
 * In late November, an attacker compromised multiple accounts, including at least four administrator accounts, and used them to vandalize Wikipedia. If you have ever used your current password on any other website, you should change it immediately. Sharing the same password across multiple websites makes your account vulnerable, especially if your password was used on a website that suffered a data breach. As these incidents have shown, these concerns are not pure fantasies.
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Obituaries
 * (Raymond Arritt) passed away on 14 November 2018. Boris joined Wikipedia as on 8 May 2006 and was an administrator from 30 July 2007 to 2 June 2008.

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Archive Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 03:36, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

reinstating SoulPancake page
hello, can you provide some insight into how to best go about reinstating the SoulPancake Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_132#Apparent_edit_war_between_SoulPancake,_Aviv_Hadar,_myself,_and_perhaps_at_least_one_other_unknown_party ? it was deleted back in July and we are trying to reinstate it.

any insight into specific areas that were deemed to fall under G11: Unambiguous advertising or promotion and how to best go about resolving those areas would be much appreciated.

we are hoping to resolve this ASAP. thank you for your time.

i look forward to your reply Themoonrightnow (talk) 18:49, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Arb case
Hi DGG. Given your recent vote at the Jytdog case, I was wondering if you thought the motion I brought up might be worth bringing to a vote instead? In short, cut out the problem topic area entirely instead of a blanket site ban. Maybe it's too late in the game and essentially buried at this point (I didn't realize we'd have this quick of a turnaround), but I figured I'd toss it out there for arbs as another option that might be more preventative sanction focused. I'd personally prefer to see the preventative necessity of a site ban explicitly justified over such a topic ban in the arb votes if that's going to happen by including both motions, but I'm planning to duck out of the case either way at this point most likely. Just curious if you thought it was a viable motion to bring up or has the train has left already? Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:07, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * There's a lot to be said for your idea, that " Jytdog is indefinitely topic-banned from any material relating to an editor's real-life identity, broadly interpreted."  I've tried to find many similar solutions in terms of topic limitations, and so have others, but they are very tricky to word. (My own idea was to limit him to article space and to talk pages when people asked him about his  edits. Another possibility was forbidding him to attempt contact with anyone off-wiki about a WP matter .    Yet another was forbidding him from dealing with matters involving COI.  (there are lots of  articles in fields he is knowledgable about that he could write or expand without getting involved in  that ) The specific wording problem with your idea is that many people do use their real name or some versions of it, including coi editors, and including even people writing autobiographies. It is possible to discuss these things without makign dwefiite accusations, but actual identies are usually implied to some degree whenever there is coi.
 * There is a broader problem. It seems clear that he has too great a degree of confidence in his own judgment and his own abilities. This can be seen also in matters not involving coi. He will sometimes therefore push  too hard about whatever he is working on. And though it's improved over the las year or two, it hasn't improved enough.
 * There are none of us here who is capable of making a judgment about what might or might not happen in any personal matter. It's presumptuous of us to pretend otherwise. Idid not join arb com to make judgments, but to solve problems. I don't really have a solution for this one.
 * I'm going to copy this onto the arb page. I wannt to thank you for persuading me to revisit it.  DGG ( talk ) 06:08, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I agree that the wording is definitely open for tweaking considering what you said, so it's really just meant as a first step of intent. If something like that does go through and that line still did get clearly crossed, I would agree that there's no WP:ROPE left at that point. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:04, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Have a situation here
At the article Emma Sulkowicz and Columbia University rape controversy I've elected not to engage yet, because I have other open discussion that this could seriously effect. In this section the user Nblund stated "We're not going to treat Cathy Young or Mona Charen as reliable sources, and we're not going to ignore one side of the debate or overemphasize an issue that is discussed elsewhere". As far as I can tell Cathy Young or Mona Charen are reliable sources. Over the past few months the group of editors on that talk page has been systematically removing criticism of Emma Sulkowicz and evidence that her accusation was false. For example this version included the Facebook message which was the key point of Nungesser's lawsuit against Columbia.

I've noticed that when men are accused of sexual misconduct it is immediately added to the lead (e.g. Brett Kavanaugh, James Deen, Steve Wynn etc). I attempted add her controversy with this edit I added "Sulkowicz has been a controversial figure in media and social media with bloggers and commentators accusing Sulkowicz of making a false accusation of rape". It was immediately removed despite being sourced. I know you like to make your own formulation without bias so I'll keep my beliefs in the Hat below.

I believe there are a group of editors using Wikipedia to promote political ideologies which directly violates WP:HERE Valoem talk contrib 13:25, 4 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I have managed to spend 12 years here without getting into article problems where it is almost impossible to avoid making judgments about people. To illustrate the difficulty, I'm sure you mean to send me a neutrally worded notice, but I would have said "evidence that her accusation may have been false."  I will look at all these, but not in the next day or two, and I will only get involved if  I think there is something actually helpful I can do.


 * I want to remind everyone that if you would like me to pay attention to an article, please just mention the article. I will read the discussion and form my own conclusions about what I ought to do. When you indicate what you would like to see done, I have the inclination to prove my freedom from being thought to be canvassed by doing something quite different. (smile)  DGG ( talk ) 17:33, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I actually hope you do not get involved I came here looking for advice regarding the calmest and strongest approach. I know from past experiences that if I open an RfC it is going to turn into a full blown war and I probably would be fully committed for six months. I'm trying to avoid that. I was hoping to see how I can prove Cathy Young and Mona Charen are reliable sources. I intented to open a discussion for that and then added their sources. Because you are a librarian I was wondering if there was a simpler way. Or maybe they are not reliable sources, I don't know. Valoem talk contrib 18:21, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I share your reservations about holding an RfC on this. I will look at the sources you ask about, --but I am also going to check outthe entire discussion, which will take more than one look.. I hope there is no urgency, for I am unlikely to get to it until next week.  DGG ( talk ) 02:14, 5 December 2018 (UTC).
 * No urgency, thanks for any feed back. Valoem talk <b style="color: Green;">contrib</b> 17:43, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Hey Valoem a ping would be nice here. As I stated in the very next sentence of the response you partially quoted: I'm open to including some additional discussion of the controversy, but multiple editors cited multiple issues with your edit which you made no effort to address. Instead, you responded with stuff like this and this. Those approaches, unsurprisingly, didn't actually gain much traction, but you didn't bother trying anything else.

If you want to address content concerns, you need to either attempt to address the concerns of other editors, or you need to follow the advise gave you here, and pursue another venue for dispute resolution. If you want to accuse other editors of systematically suppressing information, you need to gather diffs and take those complaints to WP:ANI. Ignoring everyone and then attempting to quietly appeal to another admin is not acceptable conduct. You are plenty experienced enough to know better.

@DGG: I appreciate that you're trying to be helpful and also remain neutral, and I can see that lots of editors look to you for advise. In this case, however, it seems like Valoem is bringing this issue to you instead of (rather than in addition to) making an effort to build consensus with other editors, and he's casting unfounded aspersions. I think the most helpful thing to do here would be to encourage Valoem to pursue his content disputes through the same avenues that every other editor uses. [[User:Nblund |<span style="background-color:
 * 1) CC79A7; color:white;">Nblund ]]talk 18:34, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * , By chance how did you come across this page? I wanted a private discussion, and due to the political nature of the debate which may be opened in the future, I advised against opening any ANI until the proper arguments of possible bias have been put forward. I still don't understand how you arrive at this page if you are not stalking me? <b style="color: DarkSlateGray;">Valoem</b> <b style="color: blue;">talk</b> <b style="color: Green;">contrib</b> 15:54, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I looked at your contributions. For good reason, apparently. I realize you wanted a private discussion, but that's precisely the problem. In the future, please ping editors when you start a discussion that involves them, and please refrain from making baseless accusations or threatening to take people to ANI if you have no intention of actually doing so. [[User:Nblund |<span style="background-color:


 * 1) CC79A7; color:white;">Nblund ]]talk 18:17, 11 December 2018 (UTC)


 * anyone who wants to have an argument with me, please do so here. Anyone who wants to have an argument with someone else, do it elsewhere.
 * But, anyone who wants me to look at something, can certainly ask me to take a look at it here and I think it quite inappropriate to discourage or criticize someone for doing so.    DGG ( talk ) 19:20, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Allied Media Projects article
Hi David, An editor at the Radical Education editathon on Sunday created a new article for Allied Media Projects. It was put up for speedy deletion; I and some others did work on editing it yesterday (more to come!) and contested the deletion on the talk page (it has been downgraded from speedy deletion to considered for deletion), but there is still discussion going on on the talk page and I'd be grateful if you have a moment to add any suggestions or thoughts. Perimeander (talk) 20:41, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I shall email you.  DGG ( talk ) 00:46, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Please Review Copyright Issue on Pure Storage Page
Hi David,

My name is Ian Wikramanayake, I am the social media manager at Pure Storage. It appears that a copyright issue dating back to 2012 recently caused an investigation on the Pure Storage Wikipedia page and requires admin attention to resolve the copyright issue in history. I’d greatly appreciate your help to resolve this issue, so the Pure Wikipedia page can be restored.

Ianwikramanayake (talk) 00:09, 5 December 2018 (UTC)


 * the matter seems to have been dealt with by another editor.Thearticle is at Pure Storage.  DGG ( talk ) 02:26, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Zenni Optical
Draft:Zenni Optical is at AfC but it shows that it the page Zenni Optical is protected from creation by you for what looks like continued recreation and sockpuppetry. Can you unprotect the page so I can move it to the mainspace? --CNMall41 (talk) 03:37, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Disregard for now, actually. --CNMall41 (talk) 03:48, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

re Carrying on
Regarding your recent Carrying on section: you alluded to not being able to "keep track of pages that [he] may have been watching." Would it be helpful to have his watchlist? Even if unable to log in, he can view his TP, and if it seemed like having his Watchlist would be useful in combating COI (or helping in any other way), then if we asked him there and he was amenable to the idea, maybe he could it email it to you or to somebody. He can't log in and access it now, but I bet he remembers the highlights. Would this be a worthwhile initiative? Mathglot (talk) 10:35, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * What I mean however was not that I would be unable technically, but that I am unable to deal with the work involved. He has been at least as active as I, and many more of the matters he dealt with are subject to continuing problems.
 * As you say, he is blocked, and cannot log in, and cannot see his watchlist when logged out. There is however a workaround, using the Related Changes feature at WP:Public Watchlist I or anyone could look at his edit history and construct a list of what needed to be watched. Like me, there are undoubtedly several thousand pages on his watchlist, and his edit history like my own  will involve many thousands of pages.  But your suggestion is useful, and something can be done along these line. I shall this weekend try to prepare a subpage in my own userspace of recent articles that he was involved with that remain seriously problematic, but nott hose that are trivial or -- more important--those involve carrying on continuing disputes. Other people will see them quite enough without such  assistance. I can use my own judgement for this, and of course anyone can add to it. There is no need to ask him and I do not think he would really be helped by being reminding about problems here that he cannot work on.
 * I'll give the page link here when I've done the work.  DGG ( talk ) 17:56, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Alternative Business Funding
David. I understand you were the editor who undertook the speedy deletion of Draft:Alternative Business Funding. In fact, it was deleted so fast I was unable to even lodge an appeal and I am concerned that this decision shows a lack of consistency in the decision-making process.

The entry was justifiable as an organisation which pioneered a product/service that led to a direct change in UK legislation. The entry itself was significantly amended following comments from the original reviewer to enhance the balance. The historical context and generic explanation of how a funding portal works was also amended to provide an even stronger encyclopedic element to this content. I ensured these elements were educational and balanced. The citations were all from independent, national publications or directly from UK Government sources. The G11 decision states: "because the page seems to be unambiguous advertising which only promotes a company, group, product, service, person, or point of view and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become encyclopedic" and yet there are numerous live Wikipedia entries in this specific sector to which this ruling would apply - not least Funding Options, the second of the three UK Government designated portals (NOTE: it is absolutely not my intention to see this page removed). The same could be said for the Wiki entries of products and services such as Funding Circle, CrowdCube, Zopa, and MarketInvoice (which has been flagged as having significant issues but remains live). Also, every UK bank listed in Wikipedia. Again, my intention here is not to have these pages removed but to demonstrate the inconsistency in this deletion decision. I would be grateful for your comments and an opportunity to review your decision and reinstate the page.Casius12 (talk) 14:43, 6 December 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Casius12 (talk • contribs) 12:50, 6 December 2018 (UTC) Hi David. Thank you for your response. I have objected to your proposed deletion of Funding Options, but will put together a reasoned argument for both as soon as I can. It was not my intention to demonstrate that the article was "almost as bad" - in fact entirely the opposite and I am sorry that this is your interpretation. It clearly wasn't the view of the Editor who found it acceptable in 2016. As I am sure you will understand, I am now extremely reluctant to discuss or debate other entries for fear of these also being subject to deletion. This has never been my intention and, given that I feel the deletion of the ABF draft is unfair, I don't wish to be responsible for a cascade of further similar decisions. Your comment about a Designated Portals entry is duly noted and this may, ultimately, have to be the compromise. However, I would prefer to address the issue of individual entries first. Thanks for your time - I'm sure we will be 'talking' further in due course. Casius12 (talk) 11:51, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia articles must show notability according to the rules in WP:N; in general this requires multiple substantial references from reliable third party sources that are not mere press releases or notices, and not advertising, nor promotional interviews where the person interviewed says what they please.. Of  your references, almost all were about the general method of Designated Funding Portals  (about which we do need an article) -- the others were mere mentions or promotional interviews. You are correct that the article Funding Options was almost as bad, and I have listed it for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Funding Options,if you do not think it should be removed, you can comment there, declaring your coi with a firm in the same industry.  If the consensus is to keep that article, I will consider reinstating yours as a draft. As for the others, one is a firm listed on the LSE, which we almost always consider sufficient for an article-- I shall look at the others.  DGG ( talk ) 01:34, 8 December 2018 (UTC)


 * You have some good points.


 * Dealing with the other articles is always a problem when comparisons are mentioned. I' m trying to think of a way to still look at them, but avoid the side effect, or at least not make it so obvious. But to be clear, once I see a  problematic area, I sometimes look at everything there, though it may take me a few years in some cases to go through them all.


 * Regardless of what happens to your particular article, one on designated portals will I think be a good idea. For areas here where there are questions of notability, my experience is that an article on the general field is always helpful. It helps show the field is important to those who have not heard of it, anddecreases the likelihood of deletion of articles on firms in the industry.  I'm in the US, so the term though not the concept is new to me, and I'm glad to know about it.   (In fact an article on the general field is helpful for all fields whatsoever. It can serve as the basis for  expansion. It also shows that you are interested in writing more than just on this particular company.


 * Our standards for articles in companies are higher and more consistent now than 2 years ago. But there should be no problem in having an article if you can find references that meet the criteria. If you can show them, I can undelete the article and add them, splitting out the part on designated portals. Our standards here are fixed on the quality of the references; myself, I think we should take importance in a field into account also, but that's a minority view, and tho I will say it in discussions, when I take admin action such as deletion, I always follow the orthodox rule as strictly as I can.


 * We are currently going through a phase where we are emphasising removing promotionalism .  The priority here is articles that are entirely or mainly promotionalism, but in practice it now also includes articles that are even somewhat promotional, and it has therefore has an effect on all articles on business (and nonprofits also). I'm not a zealot about this: any fair article about a good or useful enterprise will inherently have some promotional effect.  But the immediate need is to get rid of the undeclared paid editors who write straight advertising in violation of the terms of use, and about that I  and most of us here  are quite determined. We will never actually get rid of them entirely--the temptation will always be strong--but once we have the problem a little more in hand, then we can deal with the more difficult problem of  getting people to write balanced well sourced articles on organizations. I recognize the unfortunate side effect upon people who do declare properly. I however do not know how to avoid it. All Ican do is encourage people who want to write properly about important organizations to find really good references. DGG ( talk ) 16:53, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi David. Thank you for the considered response. I think there are a number of challenges here, all of which I appreciate. Let me try and address them in order:

1. Yes, having now been on the receiving end of this, it has a significant unintended consequence (i.e. deletion rather than comparison). I think the challenge you face here - and believe me I am really NOT setting you up for this, because you could collapse an entire house of cards - is that in the financial/business sectors, there will always be this tension between the commercial and non-commercial. So, for example, you talk about the legitimacy of LSE-listed companies. They still breach the literal rules of Wiki regarding the promotion of companies. The fact that they are listed only means they have public shareholders - they still remain commercial, profit-making organisations. It is really only a matter of scale. In the case of ABF, Funding Options, or the other companies I listed above, they are relatively small and mainly unlisted organistions, but the impact of the services they provide on the UK's SME sector is far more significant than the organisations themselves. As with the US financial services sector, UK's Alternative Finance Sector is complex and interlinked and, where players within the system are innovators or disruptors, there is an argument for them to be recognised by Wikipedia. If it would legitimise the entries for both Funding Options and ABF and allow them to be/remain posted, then would it help to provide links to some of the other organisations they work with (and each other)?

2. Thank you for this. I had assumed you were US-based and this is a pretty niche area - as the article says, there are only three portals in the UK and it took a change in our national laws to bring them to fruition. So, yes, this is fair comment and, depending on the outcome of this discussion, this may be the solution we will have to settle on. In fact, even if I can persuade you to retain the ABF and Funding Options entries, I would like to create a Funding Portal page anyway and can reduce the content on the ABF page as a result.

3. This is the bit I am REALLY struggling with. In your previous comments you stated: "interviews where the person interviewed says what they please.....-- the others were mere mentions or promotional interviews." Even after reading the Wiki guidelines, I am still struggling to get to grips with this. The articles cited in the ABF post, for example, were in UK National Newspapers - The Times, The Financial Times and the Financial Mail on Sunday - and all were undertaken by respected journalists. They were not published as advertorials (it was have to state this at the top of the article under UK media regulations). Of course a person interviewed can say what they please! But by being passed through the filter of a professional, independent third party (in this case a national newspaper journalist), there has to be legitimacy and verification to what they say backed by the journalist's own reaserch and credibitlity in creating the article. If you take your/Wiki's argument to its logical conclusion, then any citation involving a quote could render the 'quotee' (is there such a word) as a liar or fantastist simply by saying it. I have also just read your response to a discussion further down your page in which you state: "The content needs reliable sourcing, not necessarily independent sourcing. A person's CV is suitable for that." Is that serious? I was always taught that, in order to get a job interview, you should be embarrassed to read your own CV! I would suggest that a CV is arguably one of least reliable sources of fact about any individual. In a toss-up between CV and professional journalist, journalist wins every time. But I digress. After the comments of the original reviewer, I was diligent in changing some of the references to what I believed to be more credible and independent sources. On the one hand you/Wiki appear to want citations that are more than mere mentions, but on the other are critical of articles which focus entirely on the organisation cited as being 'promotional'. This suggests a case of having it both ways.

4. While I completely understand and recognise this objective, I think this is about picking your battles. Rather than questioning the motivation of Editors, success may lie in taking the approach you suggested at the end of your paragraph (and by engaging in this talk process): namely, educating ANY and ALL Editors to write balanced articles and understand the issues faced in sourcing, etc. Whether voluntary or paid, if they genuinely care about the content they produce and the way Wikipedia works, they will learn how to create/amend content that meets the needs of Wikipedia and respond to constructive criticsm and discussion from reviewers. Those that are purely 'copy monkeys' will very soon disappear as they are probably paid on results and will simply walk away from any challenge. It is also worth considering that someone that is paid and makes a successful living as a writer may well produce higher quality, better researched and better informed content than an enthusiastic amateur. Don't forget you still have the Editorial community to review and amend every entry and, again, you may find that the 'paid' Editors can add insight and additional value to entries, whatever their motivation. View this an an opportunity rather than a threat.

Regardless of the outcome, this dialogue has at least motivated me to do a little more entry reviewing where I can and where I feel I have enough expertise to offer comment. I have edited a couple in the past, but need to read more about the process before diving back in. Casius12 (talk) 16:25, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi David, just wondering if you have made a decision on this and on Funding Options. It seems that KEF is backing you up on deletion, but I'm not sure that he has seen this discussion thread. Casius12 (talk) 10:03, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Page length
Your talk page is currently 816,412 bytes long (with 370 sections). That makes it unusable for some editors. Please archive most of it, in smaller chunks. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:06, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * by the end of the year; but it will still be longer than you would probably like.  DGG ( talk ) 16:21, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Assistance in a COI-related case
Dear DGG, I was working this summer at the International Anti-Corruption Academy (IACA) as a Wikipedian in Residence. I was at that time using the account user:WiR IACA and was mainly focussed on writing the article Anti-Corruption. While doing my work there, I also noticed that the article about IACA itself could need some improvement. I was hence suggesting several changes, which were integrated by  but later on mainly reverted again by. After their edit, I tried to understand what exactly caused this revert but only received several times the assurance that they would soon have a look at the raised issues. After the end of my project at IACA, I was retiring the former account that was exclusively created for the purpose of the residency but asked a follow-up question to Jytdog like ten days ago. As they did not answer again, I checked their page and noticed that the account is retired/blocked. On their talk page, I saw that you were so kind to offer a review of problems raised on Jytdog's page and, therefore, thought about contacting you to ask you, whether you could have a suggestion concerning a proper way forward. I would not like to ignore Jytdog's objections against my suggestions by re-raising them through the requested edit-process but do obviously also understand that I will probably never receive a response from their side any longer. If you should have the necessary time, I would be super thankful for a short check of the respective discussion (even though there are several sections, the last one might be the most important one). Otherwise, I would obviously also be happy about any advice from your side, which steps I could take in order to avoid circumventing Jytdog's objections without conserving the status-quo for good. I would like to thank you already in advance for your efforts and want to apologize for this rather lengthy text. Please feel free to simply delete it, if it should be inappropriate. Best regards --Kid from Laxenburg (talk) 00:20, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * ,Iwill get to this, but it will take me at least a few days.  DGG ( talk ) 06:44, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * No reason to hurry at all, there is absolutely no urgency for anything to happen, I was more curious in general. Thank you very, very much! --Kid from Laxenburg (talk) 10:27, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

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Please comment on Talk:Road Warrior Hawk
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Road Warrior Hawk. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Assistance in a COI-related case
Dear DGG, I was working this summer at the International Anti-Corruption Academy (IACA) as a Wikipedian in Residence. I was at that time using the account user:WiR IACA and was mainly focussed on writing the article Anti-Corruption. While doing my work there, I also noticed that the article about IACA itself could need some improvement. I was hence suggesting several changes, which were integrated by  but later on mainly reverted again by. After their edit, I tried to understand what exactly caused this revert but only received several times the assurance that they would soon have a look at the raised issues. After the end of my project at IACA, I was retiring the former account that was exclusively created for the purpose of the residency but asked a follow-up question to Jytdog like ten days ago. As they did not answer again, I checked their page and noticed that the account is retired/blocked. On their talk page, I saw that you were so kind to offer a review of problems raised on Jytdog's page and, therefore, thought about contacting you to ask you, whether you could have a suggestion concerning a proper way forward. I would not like to ignore Jytdog's objections against my suggestions by re-raising them through the requested edit-process but do obviously also understand that I will probably never receive a response from their side any longer. If you should have the necessary time, I would be super thankful for a short check of the respective discussion (even though there are several sections, the last one might be the most important one). Otherwise, I would obviously also be happy about any advice from your side, which steps I could take in order to avoid circumventing Jytdog's objections without conserving the status-quo for good. I would like to thank you already in advance for your efforts and want to apologize for this rather lengthy text. Please feel free to simply delete it, if it should be inappropriate. Best regards --Kid from Laxenburg (talk) 00:20, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * ,Iwill get to this, but it will take me at least a few days.  DGG ( talk ) 06:44, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * No reason to hurry at all, there is absolutely no urgency for anything to happen, I was more curious in general. Thank you very, very much! --Kid from Laxenburg (talk) 10:27, 9 December 2018 (UTC)


 * 'TO DO''

Robert M. Epstein
I was browsing WP:REFUND and saw that you turned Robert M. Epstein into a live article. As far as I can tell, the entire content of that page, with the exception of some memberships in professional associations, is based on Epstein's own work and words. I am well aware that requirements for secondary sources are, shall we say, relaxed for people who meet WP:PROF, but that seems extreme. Furthermore, much of the content doesn't even seem based on the cited sources or even flat-out misrepresents them (in a way that promotes Epstein). Were you aware of these issues? This is a BLP, after all. Huon (talk) 18:33, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, I did not do it as well as I should have. As you recognize, the membership in the National Academy of Medicine is enough to pass WP:PROF, and in my opinion even a sourced stub saying no more than that would be sufficient for mainspace, though I myself never write anything that sparse.     The content needs reliable sourcing, not necessarily independent  sourcing. A person's CV is suitable for that. . But you are absolutely right there are some sentences that make claims that are not supported, and I did intend to go back to the article. I removed them now.  Thee's one I think could be supported but needs a cite and I marked it. I had meant to remove most of the material about university service, as I usually do; I removed it now. There's a running debate about whether to make improvements beyond those necessary to pass afd indraftspace or in main space; I take an intermediatep position, that they could be done either way. Of course, the danger of doing it in mainspace is that one might forget to go back, or, more likely with me, be diverted into other things,, so I should have done more here. Thanks for reminding me.  DGG ( talk ) 18:53, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * and my difficulty is that in reviewing deleted G13s to see what shouldn't have been deleted, a/I seem to be the only one doing it and b/ there is no single step process for seeing the contents, Both of these get me frustrated every time I do it, so I do get tempted to take do it as quickly as possible, which is not always a good thing to do. DGG ( talk ) 19:02, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Help with explaining NAUTHOR/CREATIVE?
Hi DGG, I have someone arguing that coverage (ie, reviews) for an author's works doesn't count towards notability for that individual, as that would be the author inheriting notability for the works. I'm going to try to clarify my viewpoints, but I wondered if you would be willing to help as well. I think that since the article was created by one of my students, they may be assuming that I'm making the argument to save their work. (I did spiffy it up by adding the reviews and some tweaks, but I wouldn't move bad work live, of course.) I think hearing it from another person would probably help reassure them. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 22:18, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Of course if you disagree, I totally respect that. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 22:19, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Reviews of their work are the principle thing that count for notability of an author. Ideally, substantial critical reviews from independent reliable sources. Authors do derive notability from their works, just as athletes from their performances, politicians from the office they win. What would possibly make an author notable except publishing notable works? Generally not their personal lives, and what else is there? Even prizes are normally for a particular work, though a few are for a whole career.
 * The question however is how many works, and what kind of reviews., I consider, and thousands of AfDs have uniformly confirmed, that the consensus here is that two or more notable works is enough .The usual problem comes from an author writing only non-notable works, and here I would be very reluctant to consider notability without very good sources about the author that are more than PR. The other likely dilemma is for an author who whas written a single notable work. A good case can be made forthe article being about the book, or about the author--I do not think it matters much, butI usually prefer the author because the author article has moreo f an opportunity for expansion as almost everyone who succeeds in writing one notable work writes others,  but I have always opposed having 2 articles in such cases, unless the author is truly famous; there have been only a frew genuine cases.
 * However, in practice it depends upon the reviews. Borderline significant reviews I do not consider sufficient, by which I mean the brief reviews in Publishers Weekly and the similar. I will look at the specific case later tonight.
 * And rest assured that if I disagreed with you i would say so.  DGG ( talk ) 01:32, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for trying to soften Jytdog ruling
Though I am still worried about your opinion of WP:N, thanks for your comment here. There, but for the grace of God, go all of us who care just a bit too much about the Wikipedia. Poor Dog. --GRuban (talk) 16:50, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Have a situation here
At the article Emma Sulkowicz and Columbia University rape controversy I've elected not to engage yet, because I have other open discussion that this could seriously effect. In this section the user Nblund stated "We're not going to treat Cathy Young or Mona Charen as reliable sources, and we're not going to ignore one side of the debate or overemphasize an issue that is discussed elsewhere". As far as I can tell Cathy Young or Mona Charen are reliable sources. Over the past few months the group of editors on that talk page has been systematically removing criticism of Emma Sulkowicz and evidence that her accusation was false. For example this version included the Facebook message which was the key point of Nungesser's lawsuit against Columbia.

I've noticed that when men are accused of sexual misconduct it is immediately added to the lead (e.g. Brett Kavanaugh, James Deen, Steve Wynn etc). I attempted add her controversy with this edit I added "Sulkowicz has been a controversial figure in media and social media with bloggers and commentators accusing Sulkowicz of making a false accusation of rape". It was immediately removed despite being sourced. I know you like to make your own formulation without bias so I'll keep my beliefs in the Hat below.

I believe there are a group of editors using Wikipedia to promote political ideologies which directly violates WP:HERE <b style="color: DarkSlateGray;">Valoem</b> <b style="color: blue;">talk</b> <b style="color: Green;">contrib</b> 13:25, 4 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I have managed to spend 12 years here without getting into article problems where it is almost impossible to avoid making judgments about people. To illustrate the difficulty, I'm sure you mean to send me a neutrally worded notice, but I would have said "evidence that her accusation may have been false."  I will look at all these, but not in the next day or two, and I will only get involved if  I think there is something actually helpful I can do.


 * I want to remind everyone that if you would like me to pay attention to an article, please just mention the article. I will read the discussion and form my own conclusions about what I ought to do. When you indicate what you would like to see done, I have the inclination to prove my freedom from being thought to be canvassed by doing something quite different. (smile)  DGG ( talk ) 17:33, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I actually hope you do not get involved I came here looking for advice regarding the calmest and strongest approach. I know from past experiences that if I open an RfC it is going to turn into a full blown war and I probably would be fully committed for six months. I'm trying to avoid that. I was hoping to see how I can prove Cathy Young and Mona Charen are reliable sources. I intented to open a discussion for that and then added their sources. Because you are a librarian I was wondering if there was a simpler way. Or maybe they are not reliable sources, I don't know. <b style="color: DarkSlateGray;">Valoem</b> <b style="color: blue;">talk</b> <b style="color: Green;">contrib</b> 18:21, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I share your reservations about holding an RfC on this. I will look at the sources you ask about, --but I am also going to check outthe entire discussion, which will take more than one look.. I hope there is no urgency, for I am unlikely to get to it until next week.  DGG ( talk ) 02:14, 5 December 2018 (UTC).
 * No urgency, thanks for any feed back. <b style="color: DarkSlateGray;">Valoem</b> <b style="color: blue;">talk</b> <b style="color: Green;">contrib</b> 17:43, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Hey Valoem a ping would be nice here. As I stated in the very next sentence of the response you partially quoted: I'm open to including some additional discussion of the controversy, but multiple editors cited multiple issues with your edit which you made no effort to address. Instead, you responded with stuff like this and this. Those approaches, unsurprisingly, didn't actually gain much traction, but you didn't bother trying anything else.

If you want to address content concerns, you need to either attempt to address the concerns of other editors, or you need to follow the advise gave you here, and pursue another venue for dispute resolution. If you want to accuse other editors of systematically suppressing information, you need to gather diffs and take those complaints to WP:ANI. Ignoring everyone and then attempting to quietly appeal to another admin is not acceptable conduct. You are plenty experienced enough to know better.

@DGG: I appreciate that you're trying to be helpful and also remain neutral, and I can see that lots of editors look to you for advise. In this case, however, it seems like Valoem is bringing this issue to you instead of (rather than in addition to) making an effort to build consensus with other editors, and he's casting unfounded aspersions. I think the most helpful thing to do here would be to encourage Valoem to pursue his content disputes through the same avenues that every other editor uses. [[User:Nblund |<span style="background-color:
 * 1) CC79A7; color:white;">Nblund ]]talk 18:34, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * , By chance how did you come across this page? I wanted a private discussion, and due to the political nature of the debate which may be opened in the future, I advised against opening any ANI until the proper arguments of possible bias have been put forward. I still don't understand how you arrive at this page if you are not stalking me? <b style="color: DarkSlateGray;">Valoem</b> <b style="color: blue;">talk</b> <b style="color: Green;">contrib</b> 15:54, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I looked at your contributions. For good reason, apparently. I realize you wanted a private discussion, but that's precisely the problem. In the future, please ping editors when you start a discussion that involves them, and please refrain from making baseless accusations or threatening to take people to ANI if you have no intention of actually doing so. [[User:Nblund |<span style="background-color:


 * 1) CC79A7; color:white;">Nblund ]]talk 18:17, 11 December 2018 (UTC)


 * anyone who wants to have an argument with me, please do so here. Anyone who wants to have an argument with someone else, do it elsewhere.
 * But, anyone who wants me to look at something, can certainly ask me to take a look at it here and I think it quite inappropriate to discourage or criticize someone for doing so.    DGG ( talk ) 19:20, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I didn't ask you to discourage Valoem from asking questions. I asked if you would encourage him to use normal dispute resolution processes. Refraining from casting aspersions, avoiding non-transparent "private discussions" and posting neutrally worded talk notifications are basic editorial courtesies - I don't think it's out of line to ask Valoem to abide by them and to ask you to offer a little support on that front. Valoem is claiming to have "elected not to engage", but he's actually posted dozens of times on the talk page and threatened multiple editors with ANI based on completely unfounded accusations. You aren't doing him any favors by failing to offer guidance here. [[User:Nblund |<span style="background-color:


 * 1) CC79A7; color:white;">Nblund ]]talk 19:57, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * "I looked at your contributions. For good reason, apparently", what does that mean? We are not in any open discussion why are you looking at my contributions? This sounds like a political agenda at work. <b style="color: DarkSlateGray;">Valoem</b> <b style="color: blue;">talk</b> <b style="color: Green;">contrib</b> 03:31, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
 * As I already said, . Anyone who wants to have an argument with someone else, do it elsewhere.   I will comment on the matter at hand on the talk page if I comment on it at all.     DGG ( talk ) 04:32, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for trying to soften Jytdog ruling
Though I am still worried about your opinion of WP:N, thanks for your comment here. There, but for the grace of God, go all of us who care just a bit too much about the Wikipedia. Poor Dog. --GRuban (talk) 16:50, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

User:ThoughtNoodle
Hi DGG. Since you mentioned on Jytdog's user talk that you going to try continue on with his efforts with respect to COI/Paid stuff, I wonder what you think about. The contributions do sort of indicate (at least to me) that there might be some undiclosed paid editing going on. The editor has previously denied this before on their user talk, but there lots of overlap and an undeniable connection between the articles they are choosing to edit. FWIW, this is the kind of thing I typically asked Jytdog about to get another opinion before actually interacting with the editor-in-question. However, there's an added bonus in asking you since you are also an admin and therefore any post from you to this editor might carry a little more weight than something from me. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:57, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Of course the likelihood is being a paid editor, but some of the articles may represent genuine interests of their own. Ihave never seen the point of repeatedly asking an editor after they deny it. But see Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Safari Industries.  DGG ( talk ) 18:22, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Fair enough and thank you for taking a look at this. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:19, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Jingle all the way!!
Instead of giving presents 🎁 this year, I'm giving my opinion. Get excited!! 🎅🏻🎄🤶🎁 <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme ✍🏻📧 03:08, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

PROD Hearing (person)
I noticed you did some work on Hearing (person). I'm just letting you know that I have proposed this article for deletion.CircleGirl (talk) 21:38, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:David Wolfe (entrepreneur)
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:David Wolfe (entrepreneur). Legobot (talk) 04:23, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

ArbCom
''The spread of votes for the elected and top 2 unelected candidates was very small as compared to past elections. I am going to regard the result as a random fluctuation rather than an indication of anything. .     DGG ( talk ) 17:16, 14 December 2018 (UTC)''

Although I am still upset about some of the things, but not seeing you for another term is more upsetting. There is now more establishment than ever, but less, if not non-existent at all, member that are willing to uphold the terms of use on what this project was and should continue to be about. But I suppose more productive work are done on the sidelines. Alex Shih (talk) 08:25, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Huh. That sucks. You had my vote, for what it's worth. Guy (Help!) 14:17, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Really sad more so as you had the Second highest number of supports after GorillaWarfare. Tactical voting appears to have done it.Really cannot see any reason to oppose you.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 16:26, 14 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Same here - you had my vote as well. ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79)  (｡◕‿◕｡)  16:40, 14 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I thank you for re-running and for promoting stricter action on COI issues while you were on ArbCom. I'm sorry you didn't make the top six this time. Perhaps another year. Softlavender (talk) 17:33, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
 * 😞 I share the same sentiments as Alex. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme ✍🏻📧 03:06, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
 * ditto the above:( Coolabahapple (talk) 13:41, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Christine Mitchell
Thank you. Thank is helpful and succinct commentary. MaynardClark (talk) 22:26, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Hello & Thanks
Hi DGG, I’m glad that you have checked my article “Alliance School in Tehran”, I appreciate that. It’s important for me that DGG who I believe will be in the next Arbitration Committee checks my work. I love to work on Wikipedia but Unfortunately routine engagements do not let me put enough time on it. My interest range includes human rights, especially in my homeland Iran, historic sites and events and. . .. I translated “Alliance school in Tehran” from Wikipedia Persian, as it was a historical relic and I like to continue this way. I appreciate if you can guide me to reach this goal. Thank you again. Alex-h (talk) 12:37, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Sigmund Freud Institute
Dear bradv, dear Cassiopeia, dear DDG, though being an intensive user of the Wikipedia for many years, as a contributor, I am still a bloody rookie. Learned a lot from you three guys but obviously not enough. My request: would you please have a look at the SFI entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Sigmund_Freud_Institute in regard to its acceptance. Since my latest exchange with bradv (documented on the talk pages), I put several new references into the entry. The notability, which from my understanding & observation is a big issue in the intern Wikipedia discourses, seems to be given, alone because of the very special, fascinating history of the SFI before, during and after Hitler-Germany. Thank you for your attention, happy to hear from you.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Rudyguy21 (talk • contribs) 18:43, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

Thank you DGG, I appreciate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rudyguy21 (talk • contribs) 19:06, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
 * , Perhaps you could also translate the deWP article on Karl Landauer? You can do it directly in article space--no need to use draft .  DGG ( talk ) 19:16, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I consider a translation. Thank you for asking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rudyguy21 (talk • contribs) 09:11, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Mark Sisson
Hi as you are more experienced than Wikipedia than me I wanted to ask you about this entry. I just spent ages looking for reliable sources for Mark Sisson and they appear to be lacking. I am thinking about submitting it for deletion. There are hundreds of primary sources that mention him or websites advertising his products, but no neutral reliable secondary sources. Any ideas what to do here? MatthewManchester1994 (talk) 22:16, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I suspect that he is notable as an author--his diet books arein a remarkable number of libraries. There should be reviews for them.  DGG ( talk ) 00:38, 17 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Problem is, can't find any reliable reviews. I have access to various journals, I am a fan of checking up on book reviews, but I can't find anything. He is mentioned in the The New York Times but only in passing. MatthewManchester1994 (talk) 02:15, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Paul Ryan
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Paul Ryan. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Karl Landauer
I quickly translated the Landauer entry and built it into the EN Wiki here at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Landauer The DE article lacks any references - nothing new. After all, I was able to identify a "Weblink" as a reference and repurpose. So the EN Wiki has at least the point "references"; the DE Wiki shows nothing comparable. Therefore I sent an email to the Sigmund Freud Institute (SFI), which would not exist without Karl Landauer and his sacrifices for psychoanalysis in Germany. The researchers there could - in addition to their mission - go in search of better references. Karl Landauer is an essential part of the SFI history - that should motivate. I am not a native speaker and presumably, the article needs some improvements. The SFI people are informed also in this regard.

Please understand this article as a personal thank you for your swift reaction in regard to the SFI entry. Please do not expect me to become a regular Wiki contributor; I elaborated this entry predominantly for the significance of the SFI in the context of the shattered German history. I will continue contributing to the Wiki from time to time.

rudyguy21

- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rudyguy21 (talk • contribs) 06:45, 18 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I worked on it, because I'm interest in the history of psychoanalysis myself,. . I do some translation of  deWP articles from time to time, and I too find that the differences in referencing requirements between de and en WP are almost always a problem. I think of it as the deWP assumes that it is being written by people who are  competent in dealing with their material, while the EnglishWP  assumes that it's written by people who have a minimal academic understanding.  DGG ( talk ) 06:58, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Keep?
You voted keep in 2007 in Janssen-Cilag (Articles for deletion/Janssen-Cilag). I am going AFK now, was AfDing it but no time for 2nd one ATM. Would you do the honors, or do you still think it's notable? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 10:31, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
 * , what is AFK?? DGG ( talk ) 20:31, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Away from keyboard. —Cryptic 20:48, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
 * What Cryptic said. I am back online, do ping me if you decide to AfD it as I'd obviously support it. Yes, I used to be more inclusionist as well. Wonder if it's common for 'old hands' to become more deletionist as we get older (more cynical? :>)? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:15, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I was somewhat more inclusionist in 2007 than I am now. I will revisit the article.  DGG ( talk ) 20:51, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

your opinion please...
Could I ask you to take a look at Mathew L. Golsteyn?

Thanks! Geo Swan (talk) 16:52, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Possibly more to the point, WP:BLPN. --GRuban (talk) 22:57, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, I replied at the BLPN, which is where the discussion is, but it helps to read the article first. To summarize what I say there, a classic example of when not to use BLP 1E. it should perhaps go as a footnote explicating our rule.  Further discussion goes there, not here.  DGG ( talk ) 00:29, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Books & Bytes, Issue 31
<div style = "color: #936c29; font-size: 4em; font-family: Copperplate, 'Copperplate Gothic Light', serif"> The Wikipedia Library <span style="font-size: 2em; font-family: Copperplate, 'Copperplate Gothic Light', serif">Books & Bytes

Issue 31, October – Novemeber 2018 <div style = "margin-top: 1.5em; border: 3px solid #ae8c55; border-radius: .5em; padding: 1em 1.5em; font-size: .9em"> French version of Books & Bytes is now available on meta!
 * OAWiki
 * Wikimedia and Libraries User Group update
 * Global branches update
 * Bytes in brief

Read the full newsletter Sent by MediaWiki message delivery on behalf of The Wikipedia Library team --MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 14:34, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Sreyash Sarkar‎
Hi What do think about the above articles revision history? I think it stonkingly bad and the article should be deleted. I put it through an Afd, and several good references turned up, which I missed, closed the Afd as keep, then it was found the keep votes were all socks, with exceptions and subsequently blocked, The revision history is exceedingly bad. The subject is notable, as he has some excellent references, in British and Irish poetry journals. I think the process should be to create a new clean article from the several good references that available that validate DOB, and notability, etc. I put a speedy delete tag on it, although I think it possibly the wrong one. Can you please take a look. Thanks.  <font color=" #3399ff" face="Papyrus">scope_creep <font face="Papyrus">Talk  01:47, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
 * there are two choices: either let it get deleted ,by speedy G5, and start over, or make a substantial edit right now, and remove the speedy tag,  and   fix it. From what you  say, the first choice seems easier. As for actual notability, I cannot judge in this area.  DGG ( talk ) 03:24, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
 * G5 hasn't worked. Is it possible to get it deleted, and I will create a new article next week. He is notable.  <font color=" #3399ff" face="Papyrus">scope_creep <font face="Papyrus">Talk  09:29, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
 * so I see. This is one of the common examples wherein some cases we ought to delete prior work by a banned editor, but the rule is inflexibly otherwise. Insuch a circumstance, the choice is between afd and rewriting. I point out that rewritingcan be as radical as seems appropriate,even to replacing the entire prior material. What's interesting about WP, is the many ways to justify things. DGG ( talk )

Please comment on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

International Journal of Pharma and Bio Sciences
Hi, I originally created this article because the journal was in Scopus. It was also on Beall's list. Scopus delisted it after a few years for "publication concerns", meaning problems with peer review and such, basically confirming that this is a predatory journal. The only thing that conceivably makes this meet NJournals is the Scopus listing, but given that this was, in fact, only transient, I'm not sure any more that we should take this as conferring notability. I'd like to hear your opinion about this. If you feel this should stay, I'll remove the PROD that I placed (and revert the article to before the whitewash that went undetected last year). Thanks. --Randykitty (talk) 09:30, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Once notable, always notable.  DGG ( talk ) 14:38, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with that, but my question is more whether a few years of indexing in Scopus (at a time when they were less critical than they are now after the big cleanup that they did a few years ago to get rid of junk journals) is enough to make a journal notable to start with. If the answer is yes, then "once notable, always notable" applies. If not, then it was never notable to start with. --Randykitty (talk) 15:21, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Savory & Moore has been accepted
<div style="border:solid 1px #57DB1E; background:#E6FFE6; padding:1em; padding-top:0.5em; padding-bottom:0.5em; width:20em; color:black; margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> Savory & Moore, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created. The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on the article's talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.  DGG ( talk ) 04:25, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Ballot harvesting
Hello DGG. Happy Holidays and New Year. Could you please have another look at this draft? I added some additional sources. Several court rulings including Supreme Court Involvement, allegations from the GOP about election rules in California amd election outcomes there, as well as the NC election for a U.S. House member where one of the candidates is alleged to have used ballot harvesting as a means to commit election fraud make this subject au courant and I think notability is well established. I am confident the subject will attract further editing and updates as editors and the media hash out the issies involved. Thanks for your kind consideration and your good work revoewing drafts. FloridaArmy (talk) 05:16, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Is this terminology standard? DGG ( talk ) 05:31, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
 * It is the only term I've heard used to describe the illegal activity that is resulting in a do over of two elections in the US. Running around collecting mail in ballets from random people to fill out and send it. Clearly notable just looking at the title.  Legacypac (talk) 05:57, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Just a point of clarification, while ballot harvesting is illegal in and of itself in North Carolina, I think the allegations are also related to how the absentee ballots were obtained and what was done with ballots. To DGG's question, I have not seen any other teminology used. It seems to be standard at this time. FloridaArmy (talk) 14:51, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
 * the article is currently in mainspace--I am not going to challenge it, but it might make sense to have it refer to the specific races involved,  DGG ( talk ) 20:37, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes ballet harvesting is the act of collecting mail in ballets and submitting them is generally illegal. Page needs work but I accepted it. Legacypac (talk) 20:40, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
 * It could equally be argued that prohibiting it is voter suppression, but that's my POV. I have a suspicion that those in favor of the practice in any given instance may use a very different term, and perhaps the current one is polemical. But I do not edit in this field at the present time, so discussion belongs elsewhere.  DGG ( talk ) 20:45, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Death of Elaine Herzberg
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Death of Elaine Herzberg. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Maroon 5
The article Maroon 5 appears to be serving a very commercial purpose with footnotes referring to YouTube videos of their work, such as [this]. I'm shocked to see this listed as a "good article". Any recommendation on how to cut out the commercialism in articles like this about big time bands? I see this stuff all the time when I google a band and wonder why we tolerate it. We almost need a special article to tell us how to get rid of this. Does that exist, possibly at WikiProject_Musicians? I wonder if it is hopeless? Please let me know what you think. (Anyone else who wants to comment before DGG, I am all ears. Since DGG wants to respond first, please feel free to post on my talk page and provide a link to it here if you do.) --David Tornheim (talk) 05:35, 26 December 2018 (UTC)


 * There are two subject areas where I do not feel competent to work: athletics, and popular music. And there quite a few WP processes I prefer not to get involved with, and one is GA, and the other FA. The relevant place to look is WP:GAR.If you're concerned more about general standards than this particular article ,then the dicussionsn goes to the either WP:Wikipedia:WikiProject Music or Manual of Style (music) . I do know that for major writers or classical musicians or creative artists,I very much appreciate this level of detail. My general feeling is that the only way to get it in fields that interest me is to accept it in fields that interest others. Consensus means we put up with each other.  ( It might be a valid question of whether this band is major enough for such coverage, but that's something I cannot judge.)  DGG ( talk ) 05:42, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
 * It's not a question of detail. As long as the detail is grounded in reliable WP:SECONDARY sources, I have no problem.  The problem is that I do not see the Youtube videos of their songs as secondary.  It is my belief--I could be wrong on this--that the "official" version that is on Youtube involves some kind of contractual financial relationship between the band and Youtube (regarding advertisement/royalties), which is why some versions on Youtube are "unauthorized" and we are not allowed to link to them because of copyright infringement.  And if this is so, our page on the band that refers to the "official" Youtube video--as a reference--helps facilitate the profitability of that relationship.  It seems like a COI problem.  (One might try to dismiss this COI argument by saying we are helping with New York Times (NYT) advertising revenue every time we use them as a reference, but that is different because there typically is no financial relationship between the articles we use from the NYT and the subject of the article.  If there is, we are required to be careful.) --David Tornheim (talk) 09:49, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm glad to discusst he general problem of proportionate coverage here, but not as it applied to any particular popular musician DGG ( talk ) 05:42, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
 * That's not the issue. The band is huge.  I even like the band.  I just want to be sure all coverage is reliably sourced, and also written in neutral point of view.  It doesn't look that way to me, based on the issues I raised above.  Also, as with other bands, there is also the concern that coverage that appears to be secondary might really just be the result of a press release.  My sense is when the band is touring, there is a massive amount of monetary outlays promoting the concerts, so differentiating advertising from truly independent coverage is not always so easy.  This article on the band's use of social media to promote itself gives a sense of the money involved and major corporate advertising connections needed to go big.  Is it just because of talent?  I think not. I think it is mostly about money and good PR, something I think both of us are equally concerned about with regard to Wikipedia.  --David Tornheim (talk) 10:09, 26 December 2018 (UTC)


 * There are a number of industries built in large part upon hype. In such fields, you are completely right that it is difficult to distinguish NPOV sources from PR.  In particular for some genres of music it is impossible to distinguish--what makes a group notable is the publicity it gets, not its actual music.  This is true to some extent even in the world in general.  PR contributors I trust have told me,  what I should have realized myself, that the goals of the best PR is to get genuine news and magazine accounts written about their subject, and that essentially all magazine articles or newspaper features about most topics are to some extent based on PR no matter how high the quality of the source that publishes it.
 * What I think this means for WP is that for material about organizations & people connected with them & some fields of sports and entertainment, it makes no sense to use the number and type of sourcing for notability,  but we must base our inclusion criteria on known or presumed  real world importance, and judge it by the most objective means available  For content we should consider everything no matter how commercial as a possible source, but judge it for what it is worth (for an example, the words "leading" or 'famous" is unreliable no matter where published. It's just part of the PR boilerplate & if a reputable journalist copies it, they're not being as responsible as they pretend to be.
 * The difficulty is that this requires the sort of judgment many enWP contributors do not have.  The first step in this direction would be an explicit rule, that the extent and detail of an article depends upon the importance within its field, as  judged by either objective criteria or by true experts, not upon the number of sources.   DGG ( talk ) 02:55, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
 * We seem to agree on the problem about PR. I agree that having true experts commenting on quality means much more than mainstream sources.  Film critics agree that directors like Godard, Kieslowski, Tarkovsky and Antonioni are highly significant compared to 95% of mainstream film.  But IMHO it's harder to find "objective" experts who are able to judge the works currently on the market without influence by the PR industry and nepotism, other than, say, awards at the Cannes film festival, Sundance Film Festival, Venice Film Festival, and Berlin Film Festival--but even these are subject to similar influences that you see at the Academy Awards (see Academy_Awards which includes sections on commercialism, bias, lack of diversity, and sentimentalism).
 * I think there are recognized source for film, even new film, and even new film out of the mainstream, but it takes experts in these sub-genres to find them, and I am not. This is much more the case than it was 12 years ago: popular culture of all sorts is an academic field, and academics write books and articles. I have not had time to get back to the NYPL Film division fo do any actual work there for several years now, but we can use the criteria of recognition by experts even in these areas. I'd like to encourage any WPedian who knows and uses academic sources in this field to come forward.   But there's another factor, even for critically insignificant art, if it is nonetheless popular enough ,we ought to cover it, and here we need people who can judge the various source for popularity. Contrary to WP dogma popularity is one form of notability so is excellence, merit, influence, and recognition. Any of these count in any field.  DGG ( talk ) 04:54, 27 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Did you see my comment above about the Youtube video issue? --David Tornheim (talk) 04:20, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I am ignorant about the relationship of youtube to the artists they record. Thinking about fields I do know about, there are many cases of major differences between the published version and the authors' preferred version. In discussing them, we need to talk about all released versions, , though we need not necessarily link to them. That's what we do with film and books. There are certainly cases where the critically preferred version is, and also where it is not, the authors official version.  Art is among other things, meant to sell, and the version that is legally sold can usually assumed to be the basic version or the purpose of discussion.   The question of authorial intention is a very difficult one, and I have never subscribed to the critical theory that a work means what the creator says it means, or even what he intends it to mean.
 * More generally, a WP article about will normally have at least the by-product of promoting the subject it discusses. An article about anything good or interesting in even the most NPOV terms will have a promotional effect. Often, this even extends to subjects where the NPOV view cannot help having have negative implications--some people will still think, bad as it is, it might be interesting.    Almost every article here on a book,  film, or published music has the effect of promoting it, and the financial benefit will usually go both the creator and the publisher.  DGG ( talk ) 05:27, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Request
Draft:Pramod Kharel 2 is submitted for review. As you being the protecting administrator please see the draft and accept if it meets the criteria. All the citations are reliable. -- Binod Basnet  (talk)  12:45, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
 * , This time around ,there seems to be enough information to make an article, though I have no way to evaluate the sources. I unprotected. .  DGG ( talk ) 16:18, 27 December 2018 (UTC)``
 * Thanks DGG. Thank you so much. -- Binod Basnet  (talk)  02:52, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Facto Post – Issue 19 – 27 December 2018
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 19:08, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Leandro de Moura Ribeiro: self-promotion article
Hi. I would like to report what I believe to be a self-promotion article.

This article supposedly talks about a Brazilian personality. Still, there is no article about this person in the Wikipedia written in Portuguese. More than that, an article about this person was once created and soon after excluded in the Wikipedia written in Portuguese, since it talked about a clearly non-notable subject.

References 1, 3, and 5 come from self-published sources. Reference 2 is a mere proficiency test result. Reference 4 does not talk about the person in the article. References 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 do not talk about him directly and, besides that, they come from local and very small newspapers (there are no written in Portuguese articles about "midiamax", "Campo Grande News", "MS Notícias", or "Folha Integração").

Finally, the author of the article is the person that the article talks about. Diogo Ladeira Sales (talk) 17:56, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

MfD
WP:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Naman Ambavi - promo - also, SPI was closed with IPs blocked and warning to user. Article was moved back to draft, then to MfD. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme ✍🏻📧 09:05, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
 * the end result seems satisfactory--is there any problem with it? DGG ( talk ) 20:42, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Agree - the end result was a good one. Thanks. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme ✍🏻📧 04:42, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Tamika Mallory
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Tamika Mallory. Legobot (talk) 04:23, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Gerhard Lomer article
Thought you might be interested in improving this article about McGill University librarian. Happy New Year! --Bbarmadillo (talk) 07:54, 30 December 2018 (UTC)