User talk:DGG/Archive 147 Apr. 2019

The "No Nazis" essay
Hello DGG,

It's me again. I'm the same IP editor who was commenting in this discussion. Could you please take a look at this? There seems to be an attempt to shut down discussion about this issue, and I think it needs to be discussed.

Thanks, 2601:42:800:A9DB:7C8C:99A8:4EE9:72F1 (talk) 05:35, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

AfD of interest
A few years ago you commented (not voted) in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Interface: a journal for and about social movements (2nd nomination). Now it is at AfD again, and I'd highly value your opinion in this borderline case: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Interface: A Journal for and about Social Movements. Cheers, --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:43, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Request
Dear DGG, I'm grateful for your detailed critique and have tried to rewrite the article Draft:BrainStorm Cell Therapeutics following you suggestions, is it ok now ? Tzahy (talk) 14:49, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

About: Cigniti
Hi DGG,

You wrote at []:

I have edited the article, incorporated all your inputs. Could you please review the page and let me know. I have ensured everything neutral.

--Subhendupattnaik (talk) 06:18, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
 * it still reads like a web page about the company. I shall let someone else review it.  DGG ( talk ) 02:39, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

NPR Newsletter No.17


Hello ,


 * News
 * The WMF has announced that Google Translate is now available for translating articles through the content translation tool. This may result in an increase in machine translated articles in the New Pages Feed. Feel free to use the tag and gently remind (or inform) editors that translations from other language Wikipedia pages still require attribution per WP:TFOLWP.


 * Discussions of interest
 * Two elements of CSD G6 have been split into their own criteria: R4 for redirects in the "File:" namespace with the same name as a file or redirect at Wikimedia Commons (Discussion), and G14 for disambiguation pages which disambiguate zero pages, or have "(disambiguation)" in the title but disambiguate a single page (Discussion).
 * db-blankdraft was merged into G13 (Discussion)
 * A discussion recently closed with no consensus on whether to create a subject-specific notability guideline for theatrical plays.
 * There is an ongoing discussion on a proposal to create subject-specific notability guidelines for chemicals and organism taxa.


 * Reminders
 * NPR is not a binary keep / delete process. In many cases a redirect may be appropriate. The deletion policy and its associated guideline clearly emphasise that not all unsuitable articles must be deleted. Redirects are not contentious. See a classic example of the templates to use. More templates are listed at the R template index. Reviewers who are not aware, do please take this into consideration before PROD, CSD, and especially AfD  because not even all admins are aware of such policies, and many NAC do not have a full knowledge of them.


 * NPP Tools Report
 * Superlinks – allows you to check an article's history, logs, talk page, NPP flowchart (on unpatrolled pages) and more without navigating away from the article itself.
 * copyvio-check – automatically checks the copyvio percentage of new pages in the background and displays this info with a link to the report in the 'info' panel of the Page curation toolbar.
 * The NPP flowchart now has clickable hyperlinks.

Six Month Queue Data: Today – Low – 2393 High – 4828 --MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:18, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: Daisy Tanwani
Hello DGG. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of Daisy Tanwani, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: per WP:CSD, I'm assuming that Ritchie333 also checked (and decided against) whether other criteria apply when he declined the G11. Thank you. So Why  11:14, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
 * seems headed for unanimous deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Daisy Tanwani, notifying   DGG ( talk ) 17:30, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, I got a second opinion from and the conclusion is while it didn't seem possible to write an article at this time (implying that AfD would be reasonable) it didn't seem to meet the criteria of CSD. In this specific case, an additional concern was that Indian women tend to bring up less sources from a web search than subjects in the west. Ritchie333 (talk)  (cont)  17:39, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * You are right that  that local papers are available from the US, but not India. However, when they get national  coverage, that might be quite sufficient, if the coverage were independent instead of PR.  The problem for the ones we see here  is the irresponsibility of many Indian sources.  (and many US etc. sources as well, of course, but there's more likely to be something real)   DGG ( talk ) 18:04, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * SYSTEMATICBIAS does not remotely  apply for any Indian (woman) CEO, operating from a posh business area, in the 21st century. Just no. And, it's quite untrue that local Indian papers are not available over web; every major vernacular daily has an online presence and their archives date back at-least to the 2000s. Some even have digitized stuff till the 1960s.
 * That being said, you cannot view local newspaper articles of the 1800s over web and that's a hindrance to ours' judging notability of characters of those time spans. There is a major ongoing project to digitize old newspapers (whose publishers have shut their shop, long back) but it's way too slow and  fund-crunched. Still, archives of yester-century's leading vernacular newspapers like Amrita Bazar Patrika, Jugantar et al are slowly made available for free viewing and searching. &#x222F; WBG converse 19:16, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm very glad to hear the increasing availability of sources. It might be useful to compile or identify a guide to them, and how to locate them. There's of course also the problem of translation--GT is not at its best with Hindi, but seems borderline usable; I have no idea how it handles other Indic languages.  DGG ( talk ) 06:32, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: GiveBack GiveAway
Hello DGG. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of GiveBack GiveAway, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: currently at AFD with ATD suggestions, so clearly not uncontroversial enough for speedy deletion. Thank you. So Why  11:15, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: Astral Airways
Hello DGG. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of Astral Airways, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: as the parent company of AirSWIFT and subsidiary of Ayala Corporation, significance is indicated (at the very least, it can be merged to either article per WP:ATD). Thank you. So Why  11:21, 25 March 2019 (UTC)


 * I guess you're having a bad day of it. :-/ Just remember that unless deletion is vitally important (which is basically G3, G10 and G12) it never hurts to defer to PROD or AfD. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  17:50, 26 March 2019 (UTC)


 * I consider keeping advertisements out of the encyclopedia almost equally impt. The key thing is that I do not delete singlehanded --except G3/ G10 --so there is always review.  DGG ( talk ) 17:57, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

ESMO Corporation
The creator has denied being paid to write the article but I found off-wiki evidence that shows they are employed by this company and another that they have created a draft for. To avoid running afoul of WP:OUTING, could I email you a link? --Drm310 🍁 (talk) 14:36, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * yes.  DGG ( talk ) 17:37, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Nadiem Makarim

 * Hi DGG, i believe this guy worth for a pages in wikipedia.. Maybe i havent add enough sources yet.. I would add more soon. Thanks for viewing and advises.. --Kungkang (talk) 00:27, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Notice of Conflict of interest noticeboard discussion
There is currently a discussion at Conflict of interest/Noticeboard regarding a possible conflict of interest incident with which you may be involved. The thread is ‎Abhijeet Safai-- advocacy & COI. Thank you. &#x222F; WBG converse 15:40, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

UNESCO edit-a-thon articles
Hi, I kindly request you to consider taking a look at this list of articles created during an edit-a-thon at UNESCO on International Women's Day, earlier this month. List is at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Women_in_Red. KCVelaga (talk) 00:14, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I will get there this week.  DGG ( talk ) 05:27, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

just so you know
This was far from optimal, but it wasn't an ad. The machine is historically important, but largely superseded by postwar technological advances; I'm not sure anyone's manufacturing them any more, much less selling them. DS (talk) 15:07, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * , you are of course correct--the problem is the inflexibility of the built-in templates --I should have used a custom one to say "written as if it were an ad, not an encyclopedia article" .We used to be able to use a standard template, but modify it;, but it seems the function is now lost--I used it extensively.  DGG ( talk ) 00:15, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Copyright violation of a problematic article
No idea what you were thinking when you created Jean-Claude Jitrois (April Fool's?), but not only did you write a totally unattributed translation of a French Wikipedia article, which is not allowed and a copyright violation; but you also decided to copy an article with multiple tags indicating that it was considered a problematic article on frwiki. Why would you knowingly add an article that reads like an ad to enwiki? The sources often don't support the statements (e.g. "Jean-Claude Jitrois becomes then Jitrois : The stretch leather" is sourced to, where the only mention of Jitrois is "Le Combat Leggings de Jean-Claude Jitrois, moulant mais pas trop, entre rock et biker avec ses jeux de Zip asymétriques." Ending the article with the "sentence" " E [11]. " also shows a lot of care. If it hadn't been a copyvio, I would have moved it to draftspace. As it stood, I just deleted it. Fram (talk) 08:05, 1 April 2019 (UTC) So basically it is a complicated edit conflict. You didn't check the full history either, or you would have seen there was a draft already. (You would of course have seen it had you moved the article to draft) I intend to make the corrections on the draft, and move it back. You can then choose between AfD or an apology to me.  DGG ( talk ) 17:34, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
 * , despite what the history might seem to show, I neither created it or translated it. Rather,
 * 1) I found it among the new pages for review  at 1:50 or so  April 1,  where it had been moved from draft space by its author,  on March 18  leaving an edit summary "translation in english of the french wikipedia page : Jean-Claude Jitrois ", which is not ideal attribution, but is the minimal attribution according to the lede of WP:Copying within Wikipedia
 * 2) I immediately added an "advertising" tag at 1:54 April 1, , and considered what to do with the article. My first thought was indeed G11, and I too saw the tags on the French article.
 * 3) I then read it more carefully, and thought that he was in fact possibly notable: I   noted a well- sourced claim to  Officer of  the Legion d'honnour, awarded to Jean-Claude Jitrois as a designer. In addition, he had apparently written books as "Jean Claud Costa" with the source give as  a link to the BnF , where I found rather to my surprise that they were published by  Presses universitaires de France and that "psychomotricité " is a respectable subject.  (This of course leaves open the possibility that they are not in fact the same people).   I therefore decided the article was worth fixing.
 * 4) Since the text was an obvious machine translation, contained promotional name-dropping, and needed extensive format and other cleanups, I did it, as I normally do, in stages.
 * 5) While I was working on it, very reasonably moved the unfixed version to  Draft:Jean-Claude Jitrois  at 2:07 [ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Jean-Claude_Jitrois&diff=890390166&oldid=890388523-- this was a good alternative way of handling it if one saw the possible notability but  did not want to immediately fix the article. The version there is the version I originally saw. You will notice how very  much worse it was before I started.
 * 6) He quite properly did not leave a redirect, but my working version was still open as an Article.
 * 7) I saved it at 4:38, after getting about 3/4 of the way. I was perfectly aware it needed further work--the other references needed checking which would include removing the bad ones., the list of his books and description of his pre-fashion career needed clearer presentation, the material on the Metropolitan Museum show needed to be clarified, there were various infelicities of expression and proofread for such thingsas stray characters from the moves  deletions, I needed to check that the claimed collaborations with the notable artists was real,  I needed to provide the full attribution for the translation, & especially I needed to verify that he did indeed create stretch leather which seems to be implied in the article. (and I needed to consider if I wanted to go back and at least partially fix the worst promotionalism in the French WP. I very rarely do--I am aware of my inadequate skill with  their conventions, but deletion of the worst material is easy enough.
 * 8) Although I usually work later than 4:38 UTC, I exceptionally went to bed early (for me). I should have added an underconstruction tag, but I fell asleep first. I apologize for that.
 * 9) Because the earlier history had been moved, the minimally adequate translation attribution was no longer there, but I did not see that. I generally do not go back to the history after I save.
 * You kept a new page open in your browser for more than 2 1/2 hours, and then saved it without noticing whether anything had been done to it in the mean time, with an edit summary which reads like "copied"? Please hold your breath waiting for that apology... Fram (talk) 17:41, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Normally there is no need to check, because the system finds conflicts--the page disappearing in the meantime is a little unusual. The edit summary was "cpyed" , the usual abbreviation for  " oopyedit.,"  which is what I did.  DGG ( talk ) 18:09, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Nomination of Ülo Altermann for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Ülo Altermann is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Ülo Altermann& until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Fram (talk) 08:11, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Deletion Policy Proposal
I was hoping you might consider tweaking your proposal offered in the X5 discussions and submitting to WT:DEL since a bit of an amorphous discussion on the issue has started and I think your proposal might help bring some structure and a useful idea to it. Nosebagbear (talk) 10:13, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

University of Southern Maine - edits needed - DGG - thanks!!
Hi DGG:

You recently communicated with a member of our university about our Wiki page, and we have some serious edits needed, and you offered to help us.

Our greater University of Southern Maine community has expressed great concern (from current students, to alumni, to faculty and administrators, to community supporters) that our Wiki page does not at all reflect the university as it is in 2019, and it's missing information/facts about our programs, campuses etc. in addition to needing to be updated with current information. And the current page's History section is not only out of date, but it's highly unbalanced.

So our team has taken time to go through and edit (with cited sources) much of what’s occurred since the period in 2014 when yes, the university did go through budget crises and staff/faculty layoffs. We’re not asking for that to be removed from the page, but we do request that it be set in context as past history and edited to not take up three pages of content (when other universities with much graver controversies such as Michigan state have only a few paragraphs on their pages). We understand Wiki is not a PR page, so we’ve kept it to facts that anyone can look up. And information that people researching the university would want to know about it.

So if you can, please review this document, and if it meets with your approval, please add the text from this document to edit the University of Southern Maine's Wiki page -- https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dA5IL0VP5wzTsgjfHfSbS9Vc6doVUVQCEgvVgcuonj4/edit?usp=sharing  -- we’d greatly appreciate it. Please let me know any timeline for getting the changes made, and please contact me (or Alan Bennett at USM with whom you communicated earlier) for anything else we can do on our end.

DVPortland (talk) 19:00, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

You are certainly correct that the negative material in the article is greatly overemphasized and given undue prominence. I shall deal with that in the next few days; I must apologize that i did not get to this sooner. (And I will subsequently try to update the article a little). But the reason we strongly discourage those associated with an institution to write about it, is not just that they will introduce unjustified praise, and remove justified but negative material, but they will fail to understand what shows importance or even quality from the perspective of an encyclopedia. Though you recognize that WP is not a place for PR, the suggested additions include phrases like
 * "USM LAC is committed to being a national leader in interdisciplinary education, serving as a resource for the community, providing an educational experience for its students through degree programs that are responsive to changing cultural and workplace demands and that are available to a non-traditional and diverse student body"
 * "offers a wide variety of majors and programs that aim to prepare students for further study and/or their careers."
 * "Students develop thoughts and positions on complex, multi-faceted issues by considering diverse perspectives and conflicting-yet-plausible ideas. "
 * "Support faculty and staff commitment to excellence in scholarly accomplishments regionally, nationally and internationally."

This is entirely jargon, with trite catch phrases that have been overused to the point of meaningless, phrases that every educational organization in the world likes to use about itself, and that nobody rational pays the least attention to. Its at least intended as straight undocumented praise; whether the actual effect of writing such material is to reflect positively on the institution is another matter. The most absurd of it is the attempt to show progress:
 * "Like a Maine spring USM is slowly and beautifully emerging from a dark winter,” said [the] incoming President ... “I am honored to be asked to serve at one of New England’s best universities during this powerful transition"    DGG ( talk ) 07:56, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Dear DGG - your response, albeit perhaps a bit harsh, is actually greatly appreciated. By all means, ignore anything that smacks of PR hyperbole. Not being experienced Wiki editors, we were pulling things from newspaper articles and our own website to use at least as a jumping off point (mea culpa -- yes, our current President waxed poetic in the local newspaper - quite over the top, as noted)... I'm not being sarcastic when I say thanks for the eye-opening information about how this works! So please feel free to use any facts that appear in the document that can be updated/included or use them for your own research (some of the programs on the current Wiki page, are no longer even programs we offer at USM, and some things that really should be included or listed more prominently, aren't on there right now). Provable, legit progress has been made at USM, and we hope the page can reflect that. Also, is the history of how someone was hired, really that important to include? That section just seems a bit off kilter and the bulk of the history section, seems like the opposite of PR hyperbole, it looks like someone with a negative agenda had at the site, which we hope could be balanced by accurate current information. Many thanks for your assistance here! — Preceding unsigned comment added by DVPortland (talk • contribs) 20:15, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm gradually working on it .  DGG ( talk ) 08:59, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Jay Haviser
Hi DGG, could you take a quick look at this guy and tell me if you think he might meet WP:NPROF? I'm not sure he does, but I'm the first to admit I'm not the best basically useless at judging academic notability. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 16:10, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
 * borderline. One edited book, and one coauthored vol in a well known general series. There are also some papers. Anthropology and especially archeology are very tricky to judge, in the absence of holding a major position,, because the literature is extremely specialized.  DGG ( talk ) 01:38, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Hmm, ok. I might take it to AfD to get broader opinions; I'll ping you if I do. I appreciate you looking at it for me! &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 04:01, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: Daisy Tanwani
Hello DGG. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of Daisy Tanwani, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: per WP:CSD, I'm assuming that Ritchie333 also checked (and decided against) whether other criteria apply when he declined the G11. Thank you. So Why  11:14, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
 * seems headed for unanimous deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Daisy Tanwani, notifying   DGG ( talk ) 17:30, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, I got a second opinion from and the conclusion is while it didn't seem possible to write an article at this time (implying that AfD would be reasonable) it didn't seem to meet the criteria of CSD. In this specific case, an additional concern was that Indian women tend to bring up less sources from a web search than subjects in the west. Ritchie333 (talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  17:39, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * You are right that  that local papers are available from the US, but not India. However, when they get national  coverage, that might be quite sufficient, if the coverage were independent instead of PR.  The problem for the ones we see here  is the irresponsibility of many Indian sources.  (and many US etc. sources as well, of course, but there's more likely to be something real)   DGG ( talk ) 18:04, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * SYSTEMATICBIAS does not remotely  apply for any Indian (woman) CEO, operating from a posh business area, in the 21st century. Just no. And, it's quite untrue that local Indian papers are not available over web; every major vernacular daily has an online presence and their archives date back at-least to the 2000s. Some even have digitized stuff till the 1960s.
 * That being said, you cannot view local newspaper articles of the 1800s over web and that's a hindrance to ours' judging notability of characters of those time spans. There is a major ongoing project to digitize old newspapers (whose publishers have shut their shop, long back) but it's way too slow and  fund-crunched. Still, archives of yester-century's leading vernacular newspapers like Amrita Bazar Patrika, Jugantar et al are slowly made available for free viewing and searching. &#x222F; <b style="color:#070">WBG</b> converse 19:16, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm very glad to hear the increasing availability of sources. It might be useful to compile or identify a guide to them, and how to locate them. There's of course also the problem of translation--GT is not at its best with Hindi, but seems borderline usable; I have no idea how it handles other Indic languages.  DGG ( talk ) 06:32, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Nadiem Makarim

 * Hi DGG, i believe this guy worth for a pages in wikipedia.. Maybe i havent add enough sources yet.. I would add more soon. Thanks for viewing and advises.. --Kungkang (talk) 00:27, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

UNESCO edit-a-thon articles
Hi, I kindly request you to consider taking a look at this list of articles created during an edit-a-thon at UNESCO on International Women's Day, earlier this month. List is at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Women_in_Red. KCVelaga (talk) 00:14, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I will get there this week.  DGG ( talk ) 05:27, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

just so you know
This was far from optimal, but it wasn't an ad. The machine is historically important, but largely superseded by postwar technological advances; I'm not sure anyone's manufacturing them any more, much less selling them. DS (talk) 15:07, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * , you are of course correct--the problem is the inflexibility of the built-in templates --I should have used a custom one to say "written as if it were an ad, not an encyclopedia article" .We used to be able to use a standard template, but modify it;, but it seems the function is now lost--I used it extensively.  DGG ( talk ) 00:15, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Nomination of Ülo Altermann for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Ülo Altermann is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Ülo Altermann& until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Fram (talk) 08:11, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

The Way to Divine Knowledge by William Law, (1752)
Dear DGG, we have “talked” before, so I have taken the liberty to address you for help. Last year I added several new pages on Wikipedia with subjects such as John Sparrow, Hendrik Janssen van Barrefelt (Hiël), expanded some articles such as the one on William Law, George Cheyne and John Byrom. I also added two new pages on William Law’s “Appeal” and “The Way to Divine Knowledge”. They all have been accepted without any objections, but now I noticed that Rosguill has added on March 26, 2019, the following message on the page of “The Way to Divine Knowledge”: “This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page”. Now first of all there is no talk page re this article. Secondly, I really have no idea what Rosguill wants. He wants me to include “real world context” (or: “the subject should be described from the perspective of the real world”). The book was written in 1752 and I think I have given enough “real world perspective” in the article. He also suggests that the lead section “may need to be rewritten”. The lead section gives “real world perspective”! Then he states that the article “contains too many or too lengthy quotations”. The subject William Law dealt with in “The Way to Divine Knowledge” is extremely complicated and for that reason I have kept very much to Law’s own text. In this way the reader would not have to fear my interpretations, but would be able to follow Law’s own words and as a result the reader can draw his or her own conclusions. Any changes to the text will not improve the content, in my opinion. Is it absolutely necessary to keep this message of “multiple page issues” hanging over this article? Best regards, Gerda, Hanengerda (talk) 14:37, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
 * in this particular case, I think you should be abbreviated a little. Accounts of the ebb and flow of a constructed philosophical dialog are best reserved for the really famous ones, those of seminal significance, like Rameau's Nephew.   The important part here is not what the imaginary opponents say, but what Philosophicus says in Law's voice. If a fuller text needs to be presented due to its unavailability, why not add the entire pamphlet to Wikisource?  And the article does need context at the end, to show its reception & its place among Law's works. That is what is meant by "perspective of the real world"
 * The work by Law which I do think needs detailed description is the one for which is is actually famous to anyone at all interested in any aspect of the era: A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life. All religious or even serious writers of the period refer to it, many of them refer to it as a life-changing work -- and we don't have even an article on it. I'd really like to see you write it, as I think you're  possibly the only person here who can deal with it as it deserves. And when you do, please discuss in detail the reception.
 * btw,Every article has a talk page. It's up at the top left. If nobody has written or posted  anything on it, it'll be red and needs to be started.  DGG ( talk ) 17:53, 4 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Dear DGG, thank you very much for your response! I found the talk page. I have deleted larger parts of the quotations and shortened the text. I really believe, and hope, that by doing so to have improved the readability quite a bit. I have also added some information on the reception of The Way to Divine Knowledge in the eighteenth, nineteenth and twentieth centuries, so as to give some “real world perspective”. And indeed, you are right, Law’s work that was mostly appreciated was A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life (1729) and the earlier A Practical Treatise upon Christian Perfection (1726) was also very well received. The later works after 1735 were rather more controversial. Perhaps I will add a new page on A Serious Call and its reception in the near future. I agree that William Law does deserve more appreciation. Best regards, Gerda Hanengerda (talk) 11:34, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Tegan Marie Draft
Hi, my draft of Tegan Marie was declined from you due as it "read more like an advertisement" and I'd like to understand which part of it you think is a violation against the rules and standards from Wikipedia? I tried to use as much as possible good reliable sources and cited almost every fact. It's my first completely fresh article and I'd like to bring this article to the public. I already asked at the Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk but didn't get an answer since March 30th. Heubergen (talk) 18:25, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

The Way to Divine Knowledge by William Law, (1752)
Dear DGG, we have “talked” before, so I have taken the liberty to address you for help. Last year I added several new pages on Wikipedia with subjects such as John Sparrow, Hendrik Janssen van Barrefelt (Hiël), expanded some articles such as the one on William Law, George Cheyne and John Byrom. I also added two new pages on William Law’s “Appeal” and “The Way to Divine Knowledge”. They all have been accepted without any objections, but now I noticed that Rosguill has added on March 26, 2019, the following message on the page of “The Way to Divine Knowledge”: “This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page”. Now first of all there is no talk page re this article. Secondly, I really have no idea what Rosguill wants. He wants me to include “real world context” (or: “the subject should be described from the perspective of the real world”). The book was written in 1752 and I think I have given enough “real world perspective” in the article. He also suggests that the lead section “may need to be rewritten”. The lead section gives “real world perspective”! Then he states that the article “contains too many or too lengthy quotations”. The subject William Law dealt with in “The Way to Divine Knowledge” is extremely complicated and for that reason I have kept very much to Law’s own text. In this way the reader would not have to fear my interpretations, but would be able to follow Law’s own words and as a result the reader can draw his or her own conclusions. Any changes to the text will not improve the content, in my opinion. Is it absolutely necessary to keep this message of “multiple page issues” hanging over this article? Best regards, Gerda, Hanengerda (talk) 14:37, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
 * in this particular case, I think you should be abbreviated a little. Accounts of the ebb and flow of a constructed philosophical dialog are best reserved for the really famous ones, those of seminal significance, like Rameau's Nephew.   The important part here is not what the imaginary opponents say, but what Philosophicus says in Law's voice. If a fuller text needs to be presented due to its unavailability, why not add the entire pamphlet to Wikisource?  And the article does need context at the end, to show its reception & its place among Law's works. That is what is meant by "perspective of the real world"
 * The work by Law which I do think needs detailed description is the one for which is is actually famous to anyone at all interested in any aspect of the era: A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life. All religious or even serious writers of the period refer to it, many of them refer to it as a life-changing work -- and we don't have even an article on it. I'd really like to see you write it, as I think you're  possibly the only person here who can deal with it as it deserves. And when you do, please discuss in detail the reception.
 * btw,Every article has a talk page. It's up at the top left. If nobody has written or posted  anything on it, it'll be red and needs to be started.  DGG ( talk ) 17:53, 4 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Dear DGG, thank you very much for your response! I found the talk page. I have deleted larger parts of the quotations and shortened the text. I really believe, and hope, that by doing so to have improved the readability quite a bit. I have also added some information on the reception of The Way to Divine Knowledge in the eighteenth, nineteenth and twentieth centuries, so as to give some “real world perspective”. And indeed, you are right, Law’s work that was mostly appreciated was A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life (1729) and the earlier A Practical Treatise upon Christian Perfection (1726) was also very well received. The later works after 1735 were rather more controversial. Perhaps I will add a new page on A Serious Call and its reception in the near future. I agree that William Law does deserve more appreciation. Best regards, Gerda Hanengerda (talk) 11:34, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Tegan Marie Draft
Hi, my draft of Tegan Marie was declined from you due as it "read more like an advertisement" and I'd like to understand which part of it you think is a violation against the rules and standards from Wikipedia? I tried to use as much as possible good reliable sources and cited almost every fact. It's my first completely fresh article and I'd like to bring this article to the public. I already asked at the Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk but didn't get an answer since March 30th. Heubergen (talk) 18:25, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Here she is
Author's blp Quincy D. Newell.

My $.02: Religious studies is a form of quite popular scholarly writing. For example, hands down, best-selling among the oxford univ press's titles are those involving Latter-day Saints studies. (Think about it. Approx. as many LDS as there are Jewry in the world, with both camps' being approx. evenly split between US residents and citizens living elsewhere. Now, compare number of academic venues that publish Jewish studies to those publishing its LDS cointetpart. Aha! an under-served market ) So methinks that because folks who write stuff in Mo. Studies garner more readers than wd be the case otherwise, this often also earns them more notability than they might otherwise. (It's being difficult to objectively prescribe what should be notable from out of what's been published as serious scholarship, muh-thinks one's simply observing/describing what is of note via a function of what measure of attention it's gotten in the public eye might suffice to a certain degree as one's arbiter.)--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 23:58, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I would be every reluctant to make any such comparison. For one thing, the nature of Christianity means all biblically-related Jewish studies are also of interest to traditional Christians., while on the other hand Mormon studies is a significant part of general interest in the American West.  But as I understand it, the usual  word for Jews is Jews; Jewry has negative connotations at least to me, as in "organized Jewry" used in an opprobrious sense. .   DGG ( talk ) 06:29, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
 * "Mo."-es (many of whom who'd bristle at this shorthand, its being typically used by folks making light of them), as of last year, also happen to be disowning the very appellation of "Mormon" for themselves and their religion, as hd bn gvn 'em (except they still accept itw/in purely historical usages)...in favor of the more accurate, if till now mostly self-used, Latter-day Saints (while they in addition r deprecating its acronym LDS, that'd bn essentially their own localized coinage, while They're at it). See "Associated Press coverage of post-Mormon Latter-day Saints full of irony — or is it mockery?" :~) --Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk)
 * Wikipedia's Katherine Maher tweets that when journos etc. take more stock of women academics etc.'s work, Wikipedia can follow suit. Well...note that in this religious studies scholar and ethnohistorian Q.D.Newell's case, Dialogue journal and the Maxwell Institute hv pub'd interviews w her.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 15:34, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I appreciate that more-recently accepted members of exclusive groups must haze those trying to pledge:"I and a small group of like-minded friends received when we pushed for a Jewish studies program at Michigan. For over three months, we met with Jewish professors in the history, political science, philosophy, and Near Eastern studies departments. The result was that only one professor, Zvi Gitelman, a recently arrived young professor of political science, openly supported our efforts. At one of our final meetings, after listening to the excuses the professors put forth as to why Jewish studies was not a credible academic field, I burst forth: “You identify as Jews when you give lectures or talks to Hadassah ladies or Jewish organizations for money. But your Jewish sensitivities vanish when we ask you to support Jewish studies at the university.” We launched our campaign for Jewish studies at the same time the African-American students demanded that the history department hire a black professor to teach African-American history. The department responded that they would be happy to do so, but they could not find a qualified black academic to fill the post. However, the black students reacted to this rejection much differently than we did in our campaign. First, they locked all the office doors in the history department. Then they and their white student allies invaded history lectures and disrupted the classes by shouting and banging on pots and pans. After three or four days of tumult, the history department announced that they had found a “qualified” black instructor. They hired Harold Cruse, who authored the book, The Crises of the Negro Intellectual (1967). What we activist Jewish students learned from this was that a little militancy could pay off. ... 'Anti-Semitism and the Birth of Jewish Studies: A memoir of discomfort—and progress—as a graduate student at the University of Michigan in the 1960s', Robert Rockaway, Tablet"
 * "The 'Mainstreaming’ Of Jewish Studies: A growing number of universities now offer Jewish studies programs. And some are even headed by non-Jewish scholars", Steve Lipman, New York Jewish Weekly
 * "the Association of Jewish Studies (www.ajsnet.org) listed more than 200 Jewish Studies programs or departments and 230 endowed positions at North American colleges and universities" ("Jewish studies conference celebrates 50 years of explosive growth in the field"), Penny Schwartz, Jewish Telegraph Agency
 * "At City College, which is in Harlem, she’s hardly unusual: the Jewish studies program includes students from Bangladesh, Egypt, El Salvador, South Korea, Slovakia, Poland, Kyrgyzstan, Peru, Trinidad and Thailand, as well as the Bronx, Harlem and Queens. 'This is the only Jewish studies program I know of where 95 percent of the students are not Jewish,' says Roy Mittelman, who directs the Michael and Irene Ross Program in Jewish Studies. Many of the students are children of immigrants — a long tradition at City College...." ("Where Jewish Studies Captivates Non-Jews: City College’s unique program serves as a cross-cultural bridge", Sander Brawarsky, New York Jewish Weekly
 * "one alumna put it, “How do you study Abrahamic traditions without Judaism?” Another affirmed that her study of Judaism was essential to her understanding of Christianity and Islam. Teaching Christianity and Islam without Judaism in the mix is curricular supersessionism." --Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 18:37, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Interesting though they may be, I do not see the immediate relevance of these analogies. The subject of the article is a mainstream academic & notability should be judged accordingly.  DGG ( talk ) 05:59, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * When u dont understand smthg I argue - I presume i must be missing smthg. So right now I'm pondering what this might be!
 * Dan Peterson is a notable Islamic studies scholar, sure. But even better known as the founder of the Maxwell Institute etc. - which promotes scholar-discipleship w/in a Latter-day Saints context: Maybe comparable to scholarship w/in the context of the bible college/Catholic c./yeshiva/madrassa than that of the present-day secular univ.?
 * Anyway Peterson suffered some small collateral damage from an ideological coup at BYU. His Max Institute's director had renamed Dan's journal Mormon Studies Review. In its 1st issue w this monicker Dan published one side of the argument of faithful discipleship through scholarship vs the assumptions underpinning secular religious studies. Of necessity, folks who were Mormon Studies scholars but not Latter-day Saints were put within a low position within the schemata of faithful discipleship-and-scholarship that this issue proposed. The Max Inst's director responded via palace coup. Dan took his journal's now-sacked editors and "forked" from it what's now ≠ the Interpreter Foundation. In the journal's archives, the Peterson issue was re-re-named ("posthumously") as having retained Peterson's journal's earlier  name of F.A.R.M.S. Review. The "new" Mormon Studies Review was recast with an issue # 1 under BYU's Spencer Fluhman w the new journal's inaugural board or whatever it's called made up of Mormon studies scholars who also have mainstream scholarly bonafides, their all also happening to share a distiction their not being from BYU. Fast forward to 2019. The Max Inst had slowly come to the realization that Dan had been right in the 1st place. The journal's new board, selected by its proprietors @ the Univ. of Illinois, now actually has BYU people on it - along with all sorts of scholars whose bonafides are in religious studies as a whole not Mormon Studies in specific (ironically - or not - with a fairly large %age of them not Latter-day Saints).
 * Who is to be this UofI journal's co-editor? Quincy of Hamilton Col.: who is known for researches involving 19th c. indigenous peoples and African Americans, women, and Latter-day Saints.
 * Is the journal an important venue w/in Mormon studies? As opposed to the scores (200 and change?) of fully-funded positions in Judaic studies, donors who are predominsntly Latter-day Saints and the church itself has funded three. Quincy isnt one of them. But she is what she is: known for her researches to date and also as this (sole) "review journal" - for the Mormon studies' sub-field's - (& w its now being published outside the Latter-day Saints' "zion curtain) co-editor....--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 20:47, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) (fyi, just as a peripheral point) " bible college/Catholic c./yeshiva/madrassa than that of the present-day secular univ.?"  are not alike,  madrassas and yeshivas are purely religious institutes, teaching a traditional religious curriculum, and  can be of great importance within their own traditions, but cannot really be compared to a Western college, as neither consider anything outside their own tradition relevant.    A modern Catholic or Jewish university, like  Notre Dame or Georgetown or  Yeshiva University,  are almost totally secular for all subjects except theology.  Bible colleges are somewhere in the middle--most current ones offer some degree of a religiously-oriented secular curriculum as well as traditional narrowly focussed   preparation for the pulpit.  BYU is far as I can tell from the AAUP report expecting greater conformity in non religious subjects than most current Catholic universities, but quite similar to what those universities would have expected 80 or 100 years ago.
 * 2) I am not familiar with the Mormon periodicals, and their history, so most of what you say about that is new to me. I was not even aware of the  Maxwell Institute, whichI looked at yesterday for the first time. It seems at present reasonably ecumenical and the site goes to some pains to hide its Mormon roots.  I am taking a look at the others.
 * 3) Almost all studies of the christian religion as such are done by Christians. Most denomination make a point of including work from other denominations. But studies of the Jewish religion as such are done equally by Christians and Jews.  The reason, of course, is theat the OT is part of the Christian religion, and the Christian religion from the start has based its role as the continuator/replacement of the Jewish religion, and has regarded its interpretation of the fulfillment of OT prophecies as one of the arguments for the truth of Christianity. Because of this, even the modern academic literatures are to some extent separate.  Even today, there is alway a certain suspicion of motive, and it is sometimes not without reason.    (Most academic departments, on the other hand, make a point of being open to outsiders as faculty)
 * 4) More generally, there is always considerable ethnocentrism about what historian and other academics study. Certainly there are English books and journals about French history and literature and philosophy, or for that matter the French church, but it is impossible to study the subjects in depth without knowing French. For smaller national or linguistic groups, this is a much more acute problem.
 * 5) The test of a journal is twofold, not just who publishes in it, but where its articles are cited.


 * Again, all of this is interesting, and remains just background to the argument about the reliability of a particular source to a particular point. It is unnecessary to convince me about the need to take a flexible view of sourcing.  I think both of us are writing here for others. (and I'm going to close this thread now, please)  DGG ( talk ) 22:11, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Donors Trust
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Donors Trust. Legobot (talk) 04:24, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

April 17: WikiWednesday Salon and Skill-Share NYC + April 4 and 5: LaGuardia Community College Translatathon 2019
(You can subscribe/unsubscribe from future notifications for NYC-area events by adding or removing your name from this list.)

Edits to the Ravi Kailas Wiki Page
Hello,

Needed your help with the edits you made to the page I had created on Ravi Kailas ( Ravi_Kailas ), where you had added the "advert" tag. While the tag is clear, could you let me know what are the specifics to be addressed in the article, with regard to that tag? I'm hoping this is the right forum to ask you.

Thanks!

--Nelson Hyderabad (talk) 06:37, 5 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Extensive business jargon, minor awards only, unsourced claims to "first", praise of his philanthrophic intentions, and the coincidence of the article appearing in WP just before his first book is about to be published.  Since you have written no other articles, it is reasonable for me to ask yo uwhether you have some sort of conflict of interest. Please see WP:COI for our rules--if there is, you must declare it.  DGG ( talk ) 22:20, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Request on 17:13:03, 5 April 2019 for assistance on AfC submission by ShelleyPressley
I have submitted an article multiple times and have not received any feedback. It was denied in Oct., and since then I have fixed the requested changes and resubmitted three times. Can someone help me understand what I may be doing wrong?

ShelleyPressley (talk) 17:13, 5 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The main problem is that it is written like a webpage for the society, not an encyclopedia article. Please avoid jargon and lists of officers, and write what an ordinary reader who has heard the name of the society might want to know. And it does need at least one outside reference.  And link to the article on their journal, because the   journal is very important.  DGG ( talk ) 04:40, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Do sources of donor money influence scholars' conduct?
Of course. A strident voice in criticism of Buddhism [full disclosure: I consider myself Buddhist] isn't going to find purchase on many Buddhist studies panels. And rightly so. But can this can get pernicious? Witness the case reported in the Washington Post this morning. It seems..."Last May, Columbia inaugurated the Sakip Sabanci Center for Turkish Studies, funded by a $10 million gift from Sabanci Holding, one of the largest industrial and financial conglomerates in Turkey."But then..."A senior Turkish diplomat readily acknowledged making calls to Columbia, once members of the “Turkish American community . . . gave me a heads up” that Aslandogan was scheduled to speak. His participation “is quite unacceptable to us, categorically,” said the diplomat, who spoke on the condition of anonymity under rules set by his government."See also Columbia Spectator, Middle East Forum's "Campass Watch", Daily News.

More:

Wikipedia:"Cleveland is the Louis Henkin Professor of Human and Constitutional Rights at Columbia Law School. In 2014, she was nominated by the United States and elected to serve a four-year term as an independent expert on the United Nations Human Rights Committee."Cleveland-penned April 3 op-ed in The Hill:"The [Turkish] purge has targeted both alleged supporters of Fethullah Gülen, the exiled Islamic scholar blamed for fomenting the coup attempt, and independent civil society groups. The centerpiece of this assault is the indictment on March 4 of 16 leading civil society activists on charges of 'attempting to overthrow the government, or partially or wholly preventing its functions' during the Gezi Park protests that erupted in Istanbul over five years ago. The 16 include Osman Kavala, a businessman and philanthropist who has been detained in Turkey since October 2017; Hakan Altinay, an academic who headed the European School of Politics in Istanbul; Gokce Tüylüogu, head of Open Society Foundations in Turkey; as well as a novelist, a playwright and other intellectuals and activists involved in education, social sciences, and the arts."Wikipedia:"Steven A. Cook is the Eni Enrico Mattei senior fellow for Middle East and Africa studies at the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). He is the author of False Dawn: Protest, Democracy, and Violence in the New Middle East (Oxford University Press, 2017). He is also the author of The Struggle for Egypt: From Nasser to Tahrir Square (Oxford University Press, 2011) and Ruling But Not Governing: The Military and Political Development in Egypt, Algeria, and Turkey (Johns Hopkins University Press, 2007). Cook contributes regularly to foreign policy journals such as Foreign Affairs, Foreign Policy, The Atlantic, and The New Republic. He also runs a blog about Middle Eastern politics and history."Cook-penned punditry @ mag For.Policy re travails of the NBA's Enes Kanter:"there have been previous Turks in the NBA, including Mehmet Okur and Hedo Turkoglu, to name just two. But none of those predecessors—unlike Kanter—was ever targeted for arrest by Turkey as a result of his religion. Kanter is, in addition to being a Knick, the highest-profile and most outspoken disciple in the United States of the cleric Fethullah Gulen. ... ... ... the Turkish government has branded the Gulenists as terrorists, likening an organization that calls itself Hizmet, or “Service,” to al Qaeda. And it’s indisputable the group did some odious things during the decade or so when it was allied with the AKP such as fabricating evidence against their opponents, enabling the detention of journalists, illicitly recording Turkish officials, and engaging in questionable financial practices at Gulen-run charter schools. Does any of this make Enes Kanter a terrorist?"

Of course. A strident voice in criticism of Buddhism [full disclosure: I consider myself Buddhist] isn't going to find purchase on many Buddhist studies panels. And rightly so. But can this can get pernicious? Witness the case reported in the Washington Post this morning. It seems..."Last May, Columbia inaugurated the Sakip Sabanci Center for Turkish Studies, funded by a $10 million gift from Sabanci Holding, one of the largest industrial and financial conglomerates in Turkey."But then..."A senior Turkish diplomat readily acknowledged making calls to Columbia, once members of the “Turkish American community . . . gave me a heads up” that Aslandogan was scheduled to speak. His participation “is quite unacceptable to us, categorically,” said the diplomat, who spoke on the condition of anonymity under rules set by his government."See also Columbia Spectator, Middle East Forum's "Campass Watch", Daily News.

More:

Wikipedia:"Cleveland is the Louis Henkin Professor of Human and Constitutional Rights at Columbia Law School. In 2014, she was nominated by the United States and elected to serve a four-year term as an independent expert on the United Nations Human Rights Committee."Cleveland-penned April 3 op-ed in The Hill:"The [Turkish] purge has targeted both alleged supporters of Fethullah Gülen, the exiled Islamic scholar blamed for fomenting the coup attempt, and independent civil society groups. The centerpiece of this assault is the indictment on March 4 of 16 leading civil society activists on charges of 'attempting to overthrow the government, or partially or wholly preventing its functions' during the Gezi Park protests that erupted in Istanbul over five years ago. The 16 include Osman Kavala, a businessman and philanthropist who has been detained in Turkey since October 2017; Hakan Altinay, an academic who headed the European School of Politics in Istanbul; Gokce Tüylüogu, head of Open Society Foundations in Turkey; as well as a novelist, a playwright and other intellectuals and activists involved in education, social sciences, and the arts."Wikipedia:"Steven A. Cook is the Eni Enrico Mattei senior fellow for Middle East and Africa studies at the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). He is the author of False Dawn: Protest, Democracy, and Violence in the New Middle East (Oxford University Press, 2017). He is also the author of The Struggle for Egypt: From Nasser to Tahrir Square (Oxford University Press, 2011) and Ruling But Not Governing: The Military and Political Development in Egypt, Algeria, and Turkey (Johns Hopkins University Press, 2007). Cook contributes regularly to foreign policy journals such as Foreign Affairs, Foreign Policy, The Atlantic, and The New Republic. He also runs a blog about Middle Eastern politics and history."Cook-penned punditry @ mag For.Policy re travails of the NBA's Enes Kanter:"there have been previous Turks in the NBA, including Mehmet Okur and Hedo Turkoglu, to name just two. But none of those predecessors—unlike Kanter—was ever targeted for arrest by Turkey as a result of his religion. Kanter is, in addition to being a Knick, the highest-profile and most outspoken disciple in the United States of the cleric Fethullah Gulen. ... ... ... the Turkish government has branded the Gulenists as terrorists, likening an organization that calls itself Hizmet, or “Service,” to al Qaeda. And it’s indisputable the group did some odious things during the decade or so when it was allied with the AKP such as fabricating evidence against their opponents, enabling the detention of journalists, illicitly recording Turkish officials, and engaging in questionable financial practices at Gulen-run charter schools. Does any of this make Enes Kanter a terrorist?"

A piece published this morning in Ahval, the Turkish-, Arabic-, and English-language news website blocked inside Turkey:"Cook said any irregularities had been of Cleveland’s own making. 'From what I understand, sometime in the middle of last week she began demanding that additional Turkish voices be added to the panel and that Alp Aslandoğan be removed,” Cook said in comments to Ahval. A source familiar with the organisation and closely involved with the Columbia event agreed that the university’s statements did not reflect reality. 'Columbia's statements are total rubbish. What happened is that the Turkish Consulate called the Human Rights Institute and put pressure on the provost. It is sad to see this is happening to a reputable U.S. university,' the source told Ahval."--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 18:46, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Inside Higher Education: "'If the co-host had objected to the composition of the panel at the beginning, I would understand that,' Aslandogan said. 'But after the event is actually publicized and promoted on social media, I think is very suspicious.'" ... ... ... 'This event has been on the books as far as I understand for several weeks -- I think for months. Why are you canceling it at the 11th hour and secondly why is the provost stepping in?' asked Ciddi, the director of Georgetown's Institute for Turkish Studies and a panelist. 'I’ve organized a whole bunch of events in my time at Georgetown. I’ve never seen a provost, a person of that high caliber, stepping in to not hold an event.'"--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 20:30, 5 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The best known government examples are the Confucius Institutes and the various Cold War projects in Europe financed by the US government.  The best known commercial ones, US Pharmaceutical companies and Big Tobacco. But it is also true that this can be the only source is some fields, and that such sponsors will sometimes fund anything even very peripherally related in order to say they sponsor independent research, and will if sophisticated make a point of having some contradictory to their usual direction, snd will certainly do something very noticeably different if they want to change direction or public perception.


 * I am always willing to talk about Wikipedia here. I am also very willing to talk about politics and religion, but elsewhere.   DGG ( talk ) 01:55, 6 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your comments. (Yes, I was referring to terminologies a "dual" trad./sorta secular yeshiva-college, a Catholic US college (e.g. Christendom College, Front Royal, Virginia; Thomas More College of Liberal Arts, Merrimack, New Hampshire; Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, California; Northeast Catholic College, Warner, New Hampshire; Wyoming Catholic College; Benedictine College, Atchison, Kansas) or perhaps an Indonesian madrassa: This site says"In order for students to adapt to life in the modern nation-state, in the 1970s the Muslim-dominated Department of Religion (now the Department of Religious Affairs) advocated the spread of a newer variety of Muslim school, the madrassa. This kind of school integrates religious subjects from the pesantren with secular subjects from the Western-style public-education system. Although in general the public believes that Islamic schools offer lower-quality education, among Islamic schools a madrassa is ranked lower than a pesantren. [Source: Library of Congress]"--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 07:47, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) It is not being Catholic that is the key characteristic of these school, but their extreme traditionalist orientation; there are similar non-Catholic colleges.
 * 2) This is emphatically not the typical definition of a madrassa. Your source clearly indicates that this is one type of nontraditional madrassa, represented by government supported schools in Indonesia ,but not by the privately traditional madrassas in Indonesia, and the source distinguishes them clearly from the traditional madrassas in the Middle East.   DGG ( talk ) 06:05, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Modernity is not a destination but a direction of travel. A dolly on its track has an oscillating pendulum whose pendant leaden weight spirals by turns in a counter-direction of revanchism. I cite (the first) bible colleges as a non- Latter-day Saints example of a "revanchist" tendency of some sort, trying to get where Princeton's theological seminary had been many decades or more previously. Speculating that the principle I'm imagining might be more universal than this I glomm on roughly I dunno Roman Cath./other Abrahamic religion's ed. institutions. I hadn't really been thinking of Georgetown/Notre Dame when I did so though but was trying to refer to some place or another within Roman Catholic higher education where the sticking-with-it with concern whatever certain intellectual heritages and cultural traditions might be thought especially exemplary. As for yeshivas, I have no genuine idea what per se may or may not be taught there though. Sure, my landlord for a couple years in southern Florida was a Hebrew day school and yeshiva very near Lincoln Rd. (which is the northernmost border of what's called "South Beach") but I didn't pick up terribly much about this particular institution through mere osmosis. In fact, the most recent acquaintance I've had with this topic was to hear by passing reference about the mere fact that memoirist Tova Mirvis studied for a summer at a yeshiva(?) college (or whatever the place she went to in Israel was called). Yet all I picked up was that her study there was more--um modern--than not, simply due its even taking place (as (1) a women studying talmudic wisdom; albeit one who is (was) of the most "Modern"(!) "fringe" of the Orthodox). Yet, back to BYU: The Max's director Bradford was a trained religious studies scholar who recognized that what Dan Peterson and Co. was doing, despite how great it was not or was, was simply not that--meaning religious studies. That said, the Max still holds the B. of Mormon/Pearl of Great Price as (ancient) Scripture. Bradford's successor, Fluhman, nonetheless is wise to gift its Mormon studies journal to the Univ./Illinois.(*) _____(*) (Nauvoo, Illinois, is where the main body of the Saints came from 'fore they trekked w Brig. Yg. to the valley of the Great Salt Lake.)_____ Maybe they just wanted a non-BYU entity for BYUers to get published in, I don't know. ((That said, I imagine it may not have been wise to have had the Lord's university's imprimatur either on speculations grounded in philosophies competing with that of the Latter-day Saints' gospel or else on too much free inquiry as might have the potential to sway the masses of believers' opinions away from things their church's highest elders might want to conserve and/or preserve(?)))......--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 21:23, 7 April 2019 (UTC)


 * fwiw, Yeshiva is a term used by all branches of Judaism in the US for what is essentially a high school, with the proportion religious/nonreligious content very variable, but in the Orthodox tradition it also means the most advanced stage of rabbinic education basically the combination of college+theological school in Christian traditions. (the c/ts distinction has a long history going back to the 13th century university, tho the first colleges in the Colonies/US combined them.  ( I'm not linking to our article on yeshivas, because it's too disorganized).


 * But what is the point you are trying to make? In particular ,what is the point you are trying to make with respect to WP? And especially, what is the specific discussion at issue?  DGG ( talk ) 00:36, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Phillip Barlow sez (see LINK:

"the invitation to join Utah State University meant the opportunity to help build from the ground up the first religious studies program in the state where students could major in the study of religion. It was also one of the first such enterprises in the Intermountain West.

"It further meant the opportunity to experiment with and model what a balanced and rigorous academic study of the church and the wider culture and history of 'Mormonism,' as it was traditionally labelled, could look like and be. A professorship primarily dedicated to this effort had never before had official and permanent station at a university either because the subject was not previously understood as sufficiently important to warrant it or because different constituents feared such a position might be used either to foster the Church’s agenda or, to the contrary, to undermine the faith of students.

"Probably the greatest accomplishments under my watch and that of my partners was (1) to dissolve much of those polarized fears; (2) to demonstrate to an increasingly wide circle of students and the public that the rigorous and fair study of religion matters to human affairs whether or not one is personally a believer and whether one majors in religion, in international business, or in science, art, or philosophy; and (3), to attract the support of generous and visionary donors to put the religious studies program and the Arrington Chair on a secure footing after perilous economic times.


 * My meager point is just abt...a dichotomy: How educated-and(yet)-truly religious folks intersect deal with secular academic inquiry. Something I argue is innately interesting/meriting of encyclopedic coverage even in unusual cases eg my article creation Hamichlol--despite its scarcity of independent sourcing--improves WP 'cos of the foregoing and, too, in light of the there being not an utterly miniscule extent of the Haredi population throuout the world. But what I'm mainly seeing is my cluelessness thinking I'm engaging you in productive dialogue, DGG, when what comes back in your replies-- along w so much thoughtful help(!!!)-- is exasperation with my electronic impression I'm so cluelessly effecting of Joe Biden vis a vis ur WP project personal space.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 00:38, 9 April 2019 (UTC)


 * not exactly. I cannot engage in serious political (or religious) discussion here. because if  I talked about my views in detail,  I wold not be able to  remain as a neutral party on WP with respect to WP discussions. I had the feeling you were trying to induce me to do what I try to avoid.  DGG ( talk ) 04:17, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – April 2019
News and updates for administrators from the past month (March 2019). Technical news
 * In Special:Preferences under "Appearance" → "Advanced options", there is now an option to show a confirmation prompt when clicking on a rollback link.
 * The Wikimedia Foundation's Community health initiative plans to design and build a new user reporting system to make it easier for people experiencing harassment and other forms of abuse to provide accurate information to the appropriate channel for action to be taken. Please see meta:Community health initiative/User reporting system consultation 2019 to provide your input on this idea.

Arbitration
 * The Arbitration Committee clarified that the General 1RR prohibition for Palestine-Israel articles may only be enforced on pages with the ARBPIA 1RR editnotice edit notice.

Miscellaneous
 * Two more administrator accounts were compromised. Evidence has shown that these attacks, like previous incidents, were due to reusing a password that was used on another website that suffered a data breach. If you have ever used your current password on any other website, you should change it immediately. All admins are strongly encouraged to enable two-factor authentication, please consider doing so. Please always practice appropriate account security by ensuring your password is secure and unique to Wikimedia.
 * As a reminder, according to WP:NOQUORUM, administrators looking to close or relist an AfD should evaluate a nomination that has received few or no comments as if it were a proposed deletion (PROD) prior to determining whether it should be relisted.

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Archive Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:57, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

AfD help
Hi. I opened an AfD on New Market Mall, but something went wrong with adding it to AfD, Articles for deletion/New Market Mall, where I didn't realize it had already been deleted several years ago. Not sure how to fix it so that I don't break something. Could you please help? Thanks.  Onel 5969  <i style="color:blue">TT me</i> 15:24, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi again. Another editor showed me how to make the correction.  Sorry to bother you.  Onel 5969  <i style="color:blue">TT me</i> 16:47, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

How to access deleted page
Hi. There was a first version of the Draft:Amy Wax page, which you deleted here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Amy_Wax&action=edit&redlink=1

Then there was a second later version, that was promoted.

Would it be possible to post a link to the first version, so we can see what was not input into the second version (which copies and includes most of the first version--but not all of it, leaving out for example many footnotes that were in the first draft it seems to have mostly copied)? --2604:2000:E010:1100:A066:E3A3:DD44:3FFC (talk) 16:01, 8 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Please restore the page. In addition to the above, tho it was deleted as a non-controversial deletion, it's restoration would be helpful and its deletion is actually controversial. Thank you. --2604:2000:E010:1100:24DD:DC3A:BBCB:6ED6 (talk) 17:15, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Rocket Lab
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Rocket Lab. Legobot (talk) 04:24, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Request on 18:13:18, 9 April 2019 for assistance on AfC submission by Bhw2104
Thank you for your comments! It is no problem for me to edit the document to remove adjectives and other non-neutral phrasing, as well as to remove titling (i.e., Rabbi and/or Dr.).

However, your main concern is the lack of "sources" and I am uncertain as to how to address this -- as my main source for the data in this write up was my reviewing of Harry Linfield's source documents (publications and personal papers), many of which are contained in archives at the Jewish Historical Society's Center for Jewish History. Whenever a quote appears, it is from the specific document/work referenced. All other non-quoted information (e.g., dates, names, etc.) are taken from these source documents as well. Consequently, I do not know how to note a "source" beyond how I have done so, as I do not know of any biography of Linfield beyond his NYT obituary. Please advise, and thank you for your time and effort.

Bhw2104 (talk) 18:13, 9 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The difficulty is WP:Primary--a problem which frequently occurs for archive-based articles. The are possibilities: first, a description of the archive written by the arhivest is a suitable secondary source. Second, our article on the sponsor of his publications, The Amerian Jewish Committee, lists several histories of the organization. It would seem likely that they might refer to him. Third,library publications probably make reference or give short reviews of the American Jewish Year Book, Fourth. have you checked the various Jewish magazines and newspapers of the period? Many will not be in English, so there may be some problems.    But let me know when yo uhave done the basic cleanup.  There is no problem with notability -- a full NYT obit is sufficient evidence for that.  DGG ( talk ) 19:32, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

History merge for deleted draft?
Hi DGG. I noticed this conversation where an IP has requested that the history of the Draft:Amy Wax article be restored. Would it make sense for you to do a history merge with Amy Wax? According to the IP the edits should predate the current article so there shouldn't be any merging issues. Sorry if this is the wrong venue, but that editor is contesting the deletion and I figured this would be the quickest way to make it happen. If it needs to go through some other process just let me know or maybe make a comment at the above linked conversation. Thanks. - Paul T [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Psantora&action=edit +]/C 02:22, 11 April 2019 (UTC) Almsot all of it was deleted as copyvio, so I do not really see the point . DGG ( talk ) 03:16, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Pierre Desir (filmmaker)
As the AFC approver,

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Pierre Desir (filmmaker) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Pierre Desir (filmmaker) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. duffbeerforme (talk) 12:07, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Harry Sebee Linfield
Thank you for your help! I have edited as best I could and resubmitted the piece on Harry Sebee Linfield. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bhw2104 (talk • contribs) 15:53, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I did somecopyediting and moved it to mainspace. Thanks for continuing with it.  DGG ( talk ) 06:13, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Zak Smith
Hi DGG. I am concerned about some possible BLP issues in the above article. Unfortunately I recently became involved in my capacity as an admin here so I am reluctant to either edit the article or talk page. But I was wondering if you could have a look at the "Personal life" section where there are some very negative claims about the subject. In particular I am not comfortable that the cited source meets the standard in BLP. Your input would be appreciated. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:20, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Never mind, its being discussed at BLPN. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:48, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Confused
Hello. I'm confused. I wrote you twice asking how to access a page you deleted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG/Archive_147_Apr._2019#How_to_access_deleted_page

I also asked you to please restore the page. You had deleted it as a non-controversial deletion. As I pointed out, it's restoration would be helpful and its deletion is actually controversial.

You never responded. And then you deleted both of my messages. I do not understand why.

If you are too busy, or not feeling well and not up to it, please just let me know where else to ask for it to be restored so I dont bother you. By just deleting both my messages you leave me confused. --2604:2000:E010:1100:ADE0:7B70:646A:4642 (talk) 15:38, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
 * , I removed it because I thought there was no further need for it, since there was nothing substantial not in the present article that wasn't copyvio, and we do not restore copyvio. But I see there's an infobox that needs to be added. So I've put it at User:DGG/Amy Wax temp  DGG ( talk ) 21:27, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. This will be helpful. There are footnotes there that are helpful. Also - as the admin wrote, any issues were addressed ... https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:DGG/Amy_Wax_temp&diff=891237124&oldid=890983584 .. so this was not a case of restoring copyvio at all. --2604:2000:E010:1100:5556:69C2:7421:D539 (talk) 08:20, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Request on 09:25:24, 18 April 2019 for assistance on AfC submission by Aldebaran62
Hello David, first of all, thank you for reviewing my article on Bode Galerie & Edition. I understand that you got the impression that it reads more like an advertisement than an entry in an encyclopedia, but that was not was I was aiming for. Bode Gallery is a contemporary art gallery from Germany, which expanded to Asia in 2014. This is why many non-German speakers would like to know more about it and what makes an English Wikipedia-article so important. They do not only sell art, but also take part in international art fairs and create exhibitions of great art-historical importance, for example the exhibition "Music inside the painting" by Max Ackermann, which brought the pioneer of modern German art to Asia for the very first time in 2018. Also, they provide a platform in Germany for Asian artists such as Woo Jong-Taek and connect with South Korean galleries. I tried to write from a neutral point of view and to use as much independent sources as possible. From my point of view the article therefore meets Wikipedia’s standards, but if you have any tips on how to improve it I would very much appreciate it. Thank you for your assistance and understanding. Aldebaran62 (talk) 09:25, 18 April 2019 (UTC) Aldebaran62 (talk) 09:25, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I recognize its importance, but it needs to be shown. I don't make the decision of whether or not to ultimately keep an article, and some articles on galleries have lately run into some skepticism in discussions. If there is an article on the gallery in the deWP say so in a note---I will adjust the link to it.   The enWP  is a little different from the deWP: we expect somewhat more detailed sourcing .  The most important step would be to check if we have articles on each of the artists exhibited or mentioned, and link to those articles. (if they have articles in deWP but not enWP, link to the deWP articles) . . Ideally, here should be an outside reference for each exhibition-- surely they were all reviewed in the professional journals. If the exhibitions were historically of great significance, there should be good sources for that. Sources not only document the article, but lead people to further information. Try not to use words or praise or significance without  an actual source to quote. And it would help the reader if the references showed not just the link, but the full information of author and title and publisher and date---our style is in WP:REFBEGIN--it is different from deWP and considerably more complicated. To avoid delay, let me know when you've done this and I will re-review. I apologize for the lack of specific relevant information in our automatic notices, so I appreciate itthat you have asked for details. .  DGG ( talk ) 15:37, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Draft Article
Hello DGG, With thanks for helping me in the past, May I bring you this case? it's been about five months that one of my articles is in draft. Draft:Baskut Tuncak. It’s been a long time I worked on the article and improved it, but it is still there. I believe it is somehow hidden and nobody sees it. I wonder if you could check this forgotten article and let me know if there is anything else I have to do. Thank you. Alex-h (talk) 21:29, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
 * please add the years for all of his degrees and appointments. Combine the descriptio s of the fields in which he has worked   into a single paragraph. He ha probably published some things in law journals or elsewhere. Find them and list them. Rewrite the references according to WP:REFBEGIN so they show not just the title, but the publisher and name of the publication or website, and the date published. It has to be visible without following the link, so the reader know which links to follow and the strength of the evidence. Then let me know, and I'll review it.  DGG ( talk ) 19:14, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * DGG, Thank you for your advice. I will work on it and let you know when it's finished Alex-h (talk) 12:09, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

draft:Victor Kord
Hi David, Please take a look at this article for possible promotion.
 * not promotion exactly. More the use of claims such as "definitive" --and, btw, are any of his works in a major museum?  DGG ( talk ) 05:44, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
 * hi, have added some words about some of the collections that have kord's works. ps. he was also a part of Lyrical Abstraction exhibition at the Whitney Museum of American Art, (have wikilinked his name in anticipation of article going live:)) Wikikit stalker - meowr! Coolabahapple (talk) 00:43, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

draft: Steven Damelin
Hi David, Please take a look at the revision of the Steven Damelin's article (geapsu). The revision addresses all your comments carefully. Thanks very much for help. Geapsu (talk) 15:09, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

==Please Comment== Could you comment please on this: Articles for deletion/Sanjay Razdan (2nd nomination). The last one was unattended.  scope_creep Talk  12:14, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I commented, and so have others.  DGG ( talk ) 17:22, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Please Review
The draft you've deleted, @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:List_Biological_Laboratories,_Inc. I've made changes to just state the facts. Thank you. Warriorscode —Preceding undated comment added 16:52, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Knoema up for deletion
This is a huge repository of data and statistics. As one of our resident librarian editors, I thought your opinion might illuminate the matter. Best to you. Cheers 19:30, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I commented there.  DGG ( talk ) 05:45, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Draft:Safa Kabir
Hello, you have declined my draft Draft:Safa Kabir. You have written that, she is not notable. But, she is a notable actress in Bangladesh. You can see her article on Bengali Wikipedia. And recently she had said that she doesn't believe in afterlife. For this she had faced much controversies on Muslim majority Bangladesh. Later, she has apologied. The news has published in Bangladeshi media and in international media (like Daily Mail, AFP, Channel Asia etc) too (you can search Safa Kabir Afterlife). For this I want your review about my draft again.Smnsbd1971 (talk) 05:30, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I declined that there was no notability shown in the article as it existed. Another administrator removed it, reasonably enough in my opinion, for being promotional.  DGG ( talk ) 05:45, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Today's Wikipedian 10 years ago
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:20, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Enough 3rd-party sourcing yet for this blp that had failed AfD April 4th?
Draft:Clarice E. Phelps. Also - Articles for deletion/Clarice Phelps (2nd nomination) regarding biography's previously speedy deletion--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 21:18, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I have never opposed an accurate and proportional article. Sometimes the only way to get one is to start over. I want to thank you for  your persistence, and furthermore, I restored a paragraph about the awards; tho local, they will perhaps clarify to the reader why there is an article about the subject. The paragraph is perhaps more likely to stick if it is I who added it.
 * I additionally want to make clear that I strongly support the idea behind the effort to add people from a wider range of backgrounds and accomplishments to WP; There was a need to keep it with rational bounds acceptable to the community as a whole, but I think we have done enough in that direction, andcan adopt a more positive approach.      DGG ( talk ) 06:03, 27 April 2019 (UTC)


 * well, I tried. It did not stick. deleted it as db-repost, without notifying me. See my comment at User talk:Iridescent I have not yet decided about Deletion Review  DGG ( talk ) 04:55, 28 April 2019 (UTC)