User talk:Drmies/Archive 63

DYK for Erika Sunnegårdh
Thank you for your contribution to the wiki Victuallers (talk) 12:27, 27 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Did you know that a blue duck attacks the German Main page right now? I guess with 28 bites, - had to happen on the 28th ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:22, 28 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Translation question. English:  "It's a wholly modern 2600 game that's actually fun and as awesomely weird as old 2600 games like Frankenstein's Monster."  What is this sentence in Germaneze, pleez?  As you can prolly guess, *I* am ridiculously unqualified to even guess.  In particular, the "awesomely weird" tidbit is difficult to translate properly, with all the Merikan connotations thereof.  Is there a German phrase with meaning akin to "cult favorite" or somesuch?


 * awesomely weird == ehrfürchtig komisch
 * awesomely-weird == ehrfürchtig-seltsam
 * awesome-weird == Prima-seltsam / genial-seltsam
 * weirdly awesome == unheimlich genial
 * cult film == Kultfilm
 * cult classic == Kult-Klassikers / Kult-Klassiker
 * cult favorite == Kult Lieblings
 * These suggestions are from goog and bing machine-manglizations. Thanks. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 18:52, 28 January 2014 (UTC)


 * The sentence is in the article, with a translation which has been criticized as old-fashioned, but will stay until we find a better, not one of the above. ;) - see also (and vote - RfB - for so much insight if you have the privilege), --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:06, 28 January 2014 (UTC)


 * herrlich verrückt, i.e. "nicely insane". Not far off, IMO. I risked mucking it up to modify a parallelism. They will now eat me alive. The German speakers, not the ducks. Yngvadottir (talk) 19:16, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Härligt förryckt... ugh, that sounds REALLY weird in Swedish ... Hafspajen (talk) 15:33, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * "verrückt" is not insame, not literally at least, what's "rücken" (what you do with chairs)? move a bit out of place. "herrlich" has "Herr" in it - like Lord, I thought that matched "awe" a bit. - The darn duck will not eat you, but breath fire and lay Plutonium eggs, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:23, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Geil! OK, don't say "rukken", the Dutch version, since that can only be used in one context. Also, whenever "geil" pops up in Dutch, in a conversation you're in, you probably need to extricate from the situation, unless of course that conversation is with your partner. Nap time! Herrlich! Drmies (talk) 19:55, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * While in German, "geil" has become the most common slang for everything people want to praise, forgetting the original meaning. Next word would be "oddity", at the moment it's "Kuriosität", - you hear that it sounds wrong, too formal, but as someone else added it, I politely keep it. - One thing s good about the German WP: the original stays, be it English or Dutch, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:04, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Zomi/Zo
I don't know if you recall these articles, but I reverted Zomi to Zo after discovering what I thought was copyvio although it turns out the editor had replaced a redirect with material copied from his website. I've been trying to discuss this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Burma (Myanmar) with this editor who a major COI. So far I've had no response to the actual issues I've raised although one other editor responded earlier agreeing there's a mess. I can understand if you have no interest, but any comments would be useful. Dougweller (talk) 12:45, 28 January 2014 (UTC)


 * We are getting somewhere here with 2 experienced editors involved ( although the Zomi nationalists, if that is what they are, aren't really responding to any discussion ), but if you ever have time... Dougweller (talk) 19:06, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I read the whole thing and I am not clear at all on any of it. Why not let kwami and Bejnar write it up and take it from there? It might be easier if there is specific content to discuss in article form, even if that content is debatable and nothing might be left of it. For now, I don't know what to say or think. Sorry--I'm useless here and now. Drmies (talk) 19:48, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. A 3rd editor is also being helpful (I misunderstood his first couple of edits), so I'm optimistic. Dougweller (talk) 14:04, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Old Fashioned and the story of the IP expert
Holy moly! Things really exploded after I went to bed. So now I'm fat and an alcoholic? Awesome! The crazy thing is that I actually thought things were winding down and that OP was going to start behaving in an appropriate manner. Wow! SQGibbon (talk) 17:25, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Oops--didn't realize you were a drunk also. Yes, I saw their latest post on ANI, the one with the quotes from 1840 and the dozens of blank lines, and decided someone else could clean it up. I went to bed too, but I finished reading The Gorilla Hunters. I hope you did something useful, Gibbon! (At least no gibbons were shot in that book.) Drmies (talk) 17:35, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Gibbons? Gorrillas?  Can  you two please stop monkeying around?  p.s., cleanup on aisle four.  74.192.84.101 (talk) 18:36, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Hindu_Kush
Dear local linguists of high esteem, and unclubbable talkstalks like, does this modern phrase, the title of yon article, have an etymology which literally translates as "Killer of the Hindus" ... and if so, does this literal translation refer to the dark times when slave-traders would transport humans out of the Indus valley, through said mountains, often resulting in the death of a large percentage of their captives? Long-running battle over the etymology of this phrase, which stretches back to at least 2005, and governs 80% of the talkpage content, has recently come up at the wp:teahouse this week again.

Talk:Hindu_Kush is a good place for commentary, if wikiReliably Sourced... please leave any unreliable comments you may wish to make, here on Friend-of-Moosezilla's user-talkpage, thank you very much. Mayhap the current participants in the article-talkpage discussion, , , and will wish to be alerted of this new parallel schmooz-fest. And mayhap they'll soon wish they  did not so know! ;-)   Thanks for improving wikipedia, folks. &mdash; 74.192.84.101 (talk) 18:36, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Eh, does it, or does it not? What do the reliable sources say? Wait--this is an India topic, so it can't be that easy. Drmies (talk) 19:27, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * "May you live in interesting times." :-)     Sources say it means that, some of them anyhoo.  Yngvadottir found one, see Talk:Hindu_Kush.  Apparently, from scanning the page, some now-offline version of Encyclopedia Americana also gave that etymology.  Quite a few folks have shown up with folk-citations ("dictionaries of the people of the time" or mentions of the related words in Sanskrit or of the related words in Kurdish or whatnot) which suggest alternative explanations.  There is questioning of *both* words:  some people, including the person from the teahouse Khabboos, say that the "Hindi" phrase is actually supposed to apply to all residents of the subcontinent, regardless of their religion, and says National Geographic backs them up (I don't know if this is the case... I also don't know if they mean the 1958 one cited already or some newer one).  Other people on the talkpage also say the name is non-religious, giving "folk sources".
 * But the big question is whether Kush means slaughter, or kill, or killer, or something benign (various options... "mountains" and "[other] side [of the border]" being two). Our existing subsection is Hindu_Kush, and it looks like about half of it &mdash; including a blockquote &mdash; is about the killer-of-hindus theory.  WP:UNDUE may apply.  But as you say, it isn't that easy... but if the wording can be improved, or the sourcing bullet-proofed beond just 1958 nat-geo and 1993 encyc-americana that will prolly help.  74.192.84.101 (talk) 23:51, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have faith in Yngvadottir and won't butt in. After all, the last time two academics got together to hammer something out in India they had to settle it with a fist fight. Drmies (talk) 14:38, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * "Killer of the Hindus" ... how .. appropriate, somehow... ehrfürchtig komisch - Hafspajen (talk) 14:56, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Notice of a discussion that may be of interest to you
There is a Split proposal discussion on the Gun politics in the U.S. talk page that may be of interest to you. Lightbreather (talk) 04:43, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Personally identifiable information
Hi Drmies. I was hoping an admin might redact the personally identifiable information someone just posted on my Talk page. This happens to me a lot and I usually ask User:Crisco 1492 for the redaction, but because he hasn't responded to my ping at Talk:ExactTarget and I saw you were active just last night, I thought you might be able to respond more urgently. CorporateM (Talk) 16:08, 29 January 2014 (UTC) You might want to take a look at Editor is going around posting links to his own SPS conspiracy theory site and refering to himself in the 3rd person as if he were a reliable source. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:54, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Did I get it right? Drmies (talk) 16:19, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Lol, I think he/she usually just redacts the personally identifiable information and not the whole post. Perhaps I am just jaded, but I rather presumed it was just trolling, which is why I didn't answer. Still to avoid the appearance that I am trying to cover something up as the question relates to paid editing, I think the post should remain, just not the "Mr. ". CorporateM (Talk) 16:24, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Crisco is a total he. There's a picture somewhere out there--he's not the best-looking Canadian; that's probably (with Bieber a close second). OK, I should be on your payroll now. Better? I even removed the gender identifier, so as to not upset your hypothetical vagina. Hej, maybe Bjarne Stroustrup should hire you for a quick job on his article. Drmies (talk) 16:49, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * picture --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:12, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * He is kind of cute looking, I think... What, I think Dennis Brown was just fine too. What is this irrational high sense of aesthetic craving? Mies? :)Hafspajen (talk) 18:37, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Did you see mine? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:54, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Number 4 in the row, yes!! Flashy! Those big choirs and musical ensembles makes one feeling like flying on music! Hafspajen (talk) 19:00, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Can I pay you in adulation and entertainment? 1 bad joke per hour? My massive vault filled with gold is currently snowed-in ;-) CorporateM (Talk) 17:05, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I love bad jokes, Corp. What does blue paint taste like? Gerda, you have a Boniface connection? (That's you in front of the middle row of panes, right?) Hafspajen, my beauty is the only thing I have, so I am going to try and get out of it what I can. It's not going to last much longer. is much nicer than he is pretty, but that's not saying all that much since he is incredibly nice, and he is sorely missed. I'm not going to ask him to come back/be more active, there's better things in life than wikiing off, but he sure made the place run better. Drmies (talk) 19:28, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * What does blue paint taste like? Buy some and taste it? Hafspajen (talk) 20:15, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I guess you mean me, I stand in front of a window, but not the middle one, right. (Independent singers stand last row ;) - a nod to the pic cropper, missed) - My interests (no COI, thank goodness, because in church choirs you sing not for money) are linked under "occupation", --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:11, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks Gaijin. I've left a note, and I'm glad to see at least they took it to the talk page. You know, I wonder what that document says about the NRA and the Sandy Hook shooting. Drmies (talk) 19:20, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm flattered, but you give me too much credit. The busy season has started at work plus I'm spending every spare moment researching legal cannabis: the industry, law, culture, etc. and working with some rather interesting and notable people in that field.  Interesting stuff, full of misconceptions. Charlotte's Web oil vs. Dravet Syndrome is particularly interesting.  Dennis Brown &#124; 2¢ &#124;  WER  23:06, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Dennis, it's really nice to see you again. Drmies (talk) 00:40, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * agree, sad enough to miss 28bytes even if he is happy. His "darn duck" was quite successful the first day, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:48, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Cute? Oh my. CorporateM, somehow I didn't receive that ping. Let me take a look. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:00, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Sigh. I don’t like when people doubt my verdicts. Hafspajen (talk) 23:12, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Heh, I don't think anyone really does like that, but it's a necessary part of things. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 23:22, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course! What would the scientific process be without doubt? Or ANI? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:24, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Are you going to scientifically doubt that Crisco is cute? Hafspajen (talk) 23:33, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Sounds like fun! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:01, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * We should let this escalate so we all end up at ANI over this. Hafspajen, we have established that you are not Jimmy Wales, but we don't know if you look like him or not. And you need to be pretty in this conversation. Perhaps you can send a picture via Ansiktbok, and I'll gladly accept her verdict. Drmies (talk) 23:55, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, my. No. Hafspajen (talk) 23:57, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:01, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * You dooo?Hafspajen (talk) 00:03, 30 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Only on Wikipedia (and only on Drmies' page) do a bunch of dudes get in a discussion over which are more attractive than others. I have to say, if I was doing traditional marketing, I wouldn't get to partake in such "interesting" discussions "at work" but then it's 7:20 p.m. my time and I'm listening to jazz and drinking a vodka 7, so the "at work" line got blurred out of existence a long time ago.


 * In any case, there's only one way to settle it, which is for all involved Wikipedians to submit ourselves to HotOrNot.com and see who gets the highest rating. CorporateM (Talk) 00:21, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I haven't been near that site since high school... which shows how much of a babe in the woods I am. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:24, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * You're just trying to sneak in something: that you're a babe. What if Hafspajen turns out to be a 6'8" blue-eyed Dolf Lundgren clone? We'd all look like fat fools. Drmies (talk) 00:40, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Until he karate chopped us in our double chins. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:47, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Hope there is no guidline than has to force me tell you such things... Prefer to be enigmatic. Hafspajen (talk) 01:27, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

←Both better looking, and a better singer than Beiber. Although the good doctor has not yet witnessed me singing The Gambler into a wooden spoon, after a few too many cocktails. --kelapstick(on the run) 03:30, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Another one
Here is more personally identifiable information from the latest sock of a well-known banned user. No doubt done on purpose to antagonize me. CorporateM (Talk) 19:11, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I zapped the edits and left him a note, but if you believe him to be a sock of a banned user, may I suggest SPI? Yngvadottir (talk) 19:29, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * No point. He's been blocked so many times from so many different accounts. Wikipedia has no mechanism for dealing with someone that persistent. OTOH, it would be better to only redact the personal information and not the whole post. Any hour now he will begin screaming censorship. CorporateM (Talk) 19:45, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Again
God dam it - this is like wackamole. There is another one here from an editor that should know better, "as old as ". This is probably partially my fault, for ever telling anyone who I am. Sorry to be such a nag - arrrggghh! CorporateM (Talk) 22:12, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

How's your French?
has twice now created a (presumed) autobiography in French, Van tarek benali, which I have now twice deleted A7, the first time in response to a tag. I've left a note on their talk page in (probably bad) French and English, which includes a link to their talk page on the French Wikipedia (where the article was deleted three times and they are now blocked). For non-admin stalkers, their other contributions here include creations of the article in other places - including their user page. Could I get other eyes on this; perhaps I'm being too harsh, perhaps someone can get them to stop with better French, perhaps it needs to be salted, I dunno, but twice from me is probably enough. Yngvadottir (talk) 17:14, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Comment from someone other than the intended recipient I blocked the account. They were spamming their article in user space and overwriting article talk page content; they know full well that self-promotion is not allowed as they were told so very clearly when they were blocked on fr.wikipedia ("ne lit aucun message, et ne vient que pour faire sa publicité"). It's self-promotion of a clearly not notable musician, no matter how intelligent he claims to be or how many musician friends he claims to have. --Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 17:43, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I was hoping to avoid that :-( Yngvadottir (talk) 18:11, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Windsor Park Mall
Drmies, you posted over two weeks ago that you were "looking at it", which I took at the time to mean that you were reviewing it. Do you still mean to review it soon, or should I call in a new reviewer? (If you will be reviewing it soon, then just post there.) Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:20, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Editor of the week
Hey, did you know abut this project before today? I didn't. Seems like you have to make nominations on a non-talk-page, right?Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:10, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes I did--I put up someone for the award last year (and they got it), but I don't remember the details of it. Did I not do it right? Drmies (talk) 03:19, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * , now I see what you mean. You were right. Note what I've done, and I hope you don't mind I scrapped one line that is no longer relevant. Thanks, and sorry for being dense. Drmies (talk) 03:55, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Too bad you can't nominate an admin. But you can still nominate a non-admin!  Hint, hint, hint.  Seriously, that pic at the top left of your user page is sooooo gross.  Which is the admin?  :-)Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:45, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Drmies, I awarded a WER barnstar to Kelapstick instead. Also, you are invited to comment at WT:EotW on how to recognize under-recognized administrators, if you wish. Thanks for your support of EotW.  Go  Phightins  !  19:06, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Drmies (talk) 19:25, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * And thank you two (too). I am both honoured an humbled.  Now I must return to figuring out why iTunes took a major crap on this computer. --kelapstick(bainuu) 23:44, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Also Doc, I forgot to mention, couple weeks ago I spent a few days near the top of Mount Ellen, it was bloody cold up there, and the air is thin. They are looking for gold. I am not sure if I will be returning though, at this point it looks like unlikely. --kelapstick(bainuu) 23:47, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * What do you mean, Almost-Editor of the Week: are you still on the mountain? Or do you mean returning to the mountain? It looks like a pretty bleak mountain; if I were you I'd take a pick axe to the Jungfrau and get someone to pay me for it...? Drmies (talk) 00:22, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I don't think I am returning to the mountain. Swiss alps are great if you like majesty, chocolate watches, and skiing, but you don't get near as many random cows on the road as in utah or Nevada. --kelapstick(on the run) 00:49, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Question...

 * I've been looking over some of my old contributions and I came across this. I'm confused; do you have a problem with my editing or something? You've been going at me a lot lately.  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 07:32, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what exactly Drmies' issue is, but I'm going to take an educated guess that it might have something to do with appearing to be more interested in posting on ANI than writing articles. To be fair, I do the odd comment on ANI, but it's always with a view to getting discussions closed down and everyone back to article work, and it's where your focus should be too. Now, a quick scan through your contributions suggests that's not actually the case and there is a good corpus of article work, but there's a lot of little gnomish edits on there, and for better or worse, the "big players" on Wikipedia get the recognised meritocracy by doing serious research and article writing. In summary, do less of this and more of this. Ritchie333  (talk)  (cont)   12:42, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I can put it bluntly: yes of course I had a problem with that edit, which is why I commented on it, twice. "In fact, BabbaQ, your version seems to be less neutral because for whatever reason, you appear to have a problem with Yokio having a successful career in Sweden", you said, in a third opinion, and there is no evidence at all for some problem BabbaQ has. It's bad faith to assume the worst, and accusing a party of IDONTLIKEIT is, in my book, a pretty bad showing of bad faith. I am still not sure you ever got the point, since you simply walked away from this one. I'm glad that at least you changed your signature. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 18:19, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course, stuff like this is very helpful, and thanks for keeping the joint clean. Drmies (talk) 20:41, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Watching

 * Well isn't that special. A bunch of living creatures from all genera (or types, or whatever) watching me. I guess I should start shaving more often so I don't look like Warrington's walrus. Drmies (talk) 18:21, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * OOOps. Warrington (talk) 18:23, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Isn't anyone alarmed by this username User :HalfOfAMind Ophelia 1894.jpgajen (talk) 19:37, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm. Run-of-the-mill vandalism. It's painful that they're messing with your favorite mammals. Drmies (talk) 22:58, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Hm. You are my favorite mammal. - :) And the very next second they do mess -- OUUU, they're messing with my favorite mammals!! Now what is that, dog seen from an UFO??Hafspajen (talk) 23:10, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

2A
I know you dont like the gun topic much, which is part of why I am coming to you (Nixon_goes_to_China). Could you drop in on Talk:Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution Hipocrite is insisting on removing highly sourced content (high quality neutral sources, no hints of fringe anywhere), and overriding a very recent consensus discussion on what the wording should be, claiming that "Similarly here we should not take sides in an active dispute and state that the second amendment, regardless of current judicial interpretation, factually agrees with one side of an active debate" (When SCOTUS is the supreme authority on what the constitution means, and that meaning has been repeated in many reliable sources) Gaijin42 (talk) 22:07, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know, Gaijin--I haven't had time to read the whole discussion, just the first half of it, and the edit itself. It's a question of weight, in part, but it's also a question of law, and I think you should probably ask someone who knows: ping ping. As for the reference, that's a text book, and while I have no doubt about the reliability of Wolters Kluwer (they're Dutch, after all) I am loath to cite text books especially in contested articles like this one. But, like I said, I've not looked at the entire discussion--and the next part of my answer will depend on whether you want me to look at this as if I were an admin, for instance, looking at an RfC or as an editor participating in a discussion. I can play both parts, I think. But ask Brad first, or someone else who couldn't afford a real Ph.D.  Drmies (talk) 23:17, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I was asking for the admin hat, to step in on edit warring against established consensus and reliable sources. (There are MANY sources other than that book, this would be a super simple thing to overcite). However, it seems that the situation has resolved itself into a tense collaboration, but unfortunately Newyorkbrad will likely be aware of it already as Hipocrite added this incident into the ongoing Arbcom . Gaijin42 (talk) 23:20, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * PhD.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:24, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I probably shouldn't say anything new because of that ArbCom case. A year from now I won't be under such constraints. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:56, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Brad, just for my sake then, can you please comment, generally, on whether this is accurate or not: "The constitution means what SCOTUS says it means. This is one of the foundations of the entire system of law in the US. We can discuss dissents and criticism later, but the amendments mean exactly what SCOTUS majority says they mean." Thanks, Drmies (talk) 00:50, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I am not NYB, but would just like to say that that opinion is common, though many (e.g. me) disagree with it. Similarly, some people believe that a falling tree makes no sound if no one is there to hear it.  It's BS, but common BS.  I believe the Constitution does have independent meaning even if SCOTUS does not follow it.  Public officials are wiser to do what SCOTUS says, usually, but they are not obliged to agree.Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:01, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * On a philosophical level, you have a point. On a practical level, you don't. the legally applicable meaning of the constitution is defined by what SCOTUS says. However, one could certainly argue that they have wrongly decided something, based on prior precedent or on the spirit/text of the constitution, but that argument has no legal ramifications unless SCOTUS reverses themselves, or an amendment is passed. Gaijin42 (talk) 01:08, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * It may have no legal ramifications, but it often has political ramifications. A related issue is whether the judges are bound by oath to anything, or instead are merely sworn to uphold whatever it is they decide to say, which would be a somewhat meaningless oath.Anythingyouwant (talk)

 Box 1: Judicialus supremus? ...Judicial supremacy asserts that the Constitution is what the judges say it is, not because the Constitution has no objective meaning or that courts could not be wrong but because there is no alternative interpretive authority beyond the Court. As Justice Robert Jackson once ironically noted to somewhat different effect, "We are not final because we are infallible, but we are infallible only because we are final." It is this authority to say what the Constitution means—not merely to refuse to enforce laws that conflict with the Constitution—that has historically been subject to the greatest challenge and which raises the most interesting questions about the theory and practice of constitutionalism. —

Recognizing the constitutional significance of nonjudicial precedents poses serious consequences for both judicial supremacy and constitutional theory generally. The first is that their extensiveness, finality, and other features demonstrate why judicial supremacy is not a fact of constitutional life. It is not possible to credibly claim judicial supremacy as the distinctive pervasive feature of constitutional law, because it is not. Moreover, as we have seen in this chapter (and even more in the next chapter), nonjudicial functions significantly shape both the Court and its doctrine. — Drmies, as to your curiosity question, here are a few sources. Our own article (never trust wikipedia!) on Judicial review is a good starting place Judicial_review_in_the_United_States Or SCOTUS's own page (possibly biased as to their own power? ;)  Historically there are some interesting questions. The court essentially gave itself this right in Marbury_v._Madison but its been that way for 200 years now, so its pretty settled. short of a revolution or major constitutional amendment it is what it is. However, here is a well writting criticism of the current state, by the Library of Congress which does raise some interesting points also, here is a tea-partyish source making some of the arguments along what I think Anythingyouwant may be thinking of using quotes from the Founders  As I stated in my reply above, the argument has some philisophical/historical (and perhaps political)  merit, but as a matter of legal practicality it does not. I too would be interested in s analysis if he thinks it is far enough away from the arbcom dispute. Gaijin42 (talk) 01:23, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * In my view, the question is very simple: which has precedence, the U.S. Constitution, or the U.S. Reports?Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:26, 31 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ,, , it is my understanding that the Supreme Court has ruled that the Second Amendment protects individual gun rights (and "individual" means something like "not necessarily being part of a militia"). Such a ruling, even though it is the law of the land, is an interpretation of the Second Amendment in all of its weird syntax and punctuation. As an interpretation, it is susceptible to re-investigation and re-evaluation, and it is entirely conceivable that a future ruling will change it. Not likely, but conceivable. The second sentence clarifies the role of the Supreme Court and its interpretation of the amendment (and the current legal situation) sufficiently: I think that the "individual" should go from the first sentence. There is no doubt that it guarantees the right for Americans, so that can confidently be stated. But we cannot sit here and honestly propose that rulings can never be overturned--so really, an template or something like that is called for if you want to keep "individual" in. Drmies (talk) 20:38, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * ofc rulings can be overturned, but qualifying statements like that would mean almost no aspect of US law could ever be described as a fact. For example, almost every social/liberal right is the result of a supreme court ruling - right to have an abortion, right to have birth control, right to have gay sex, right to remain silent (Miranda rights) etc. Right to desegregated schools, List of landmark court decisions in the United States All of these are theoretically subject to judicial overturn or constitutional amendment, but we don't describe any of them in terms of "As of now" etc. We just describe the current state of the rights and limitations. (along with any notable arguments for change/criticisms, but those arguments are not listed as part of the current state of the law)Gaijin42 (talk) 20:56, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * No, that's not correct: we don't "just describe the current state", and even if we did, the "disclaimer" that this is an interpretation still stands. That the current state of affairs is the result of the interpretation of the Supreme Court is a matter of fact. If the Second Amendment would "literally" and unequivocally guarantee the individual's right to own a gun the Supreme Court wouldn't have had to rule on it. Again, I wish that would answer that question. Brad, what is your rate--$300 an hour? I'll PayPal you $5 for a minute of your time. Basically, all you have to do is say I'm right. Or maybe there's a more affordable paralegal in your office? Drmies (talk) 01:30, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Statements such as "[t]he constitution means what SCOTUS says it means" are not correct (see Box 1). The Court's authority to interpret the Constitution is restricted to the cases and controversies that come before. In Heller the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep a gun in the home for self-defense. The ruling did not add the word "individual" to the Second Amendment. What the Constitution "means" is wholly dependent on the question being asked. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 08:14, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Excellent arguments and sources. I do not disagree, but I do not think it materially changes the discussion at hand. The discussion is probably moot as a consensus has been achieved on the article in question but : I entirely agree that there are other mechanisms for constitutional change/interpretation and that the court may only rule on cases that come before it. Perhaps a better way of phrasing the assertion is "When/if SCOTUS rules the Constitution means something, it does mean what they rule." In this case the question of individual self defense rights came before the court. I agree that they did not add the word individual to the constitution, but do you think it is a fact, or merely a pov that the Constitution does at this moment protect an individual self defense right to a handgun (possibly only in the home) (not unlimited, subject to at this time unknown boundaries and possible regulation)? If the latter, do you think the Constitution protects pornography, gay sex, the right to have an attorney present at questioning, desegregated schools, the right of Black people to vote, the right to an abortion (also subject to somewhat ambiguous regulations) etc or are those also just povs/opinions? Gaijin42 (talk) 15:47, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * My comments and the sources supplied speak to the question asked above concerning the accuracy of the statement: "The constitution means what SCOTUS says it means. This is one of the foundations of the entire system of law in the US. We can discuss dissents and criticism later, but the amendments mean exactly what SCOTUS majority says they mean." Rephrasing the question as "When/if SCOTUS rules the Constitution means something, it does mean what they rule" does not substantially change the question or the answer. I cannot answer your last question without first knowing when you stopped beating your wife. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 02:01, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Gaijin's last question deserves a serious answer. Of course, the right of black people to vote is very explicit in the Fifteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, so we don't have to describe it as a result of judicial interpretation or discretion or decision.  But as to rights that are a result of judicial interpretation or discretion or decision, some are more entrenched than others, and some have more basis in the text of the Constitution than others (and some may have no plausible basis at all). Generally speaking, many western democracies have done without judicial review of legislation for constitutionality, and their people have done pretty well at determining what rights need to be protected, and what rights flow from natural law.Anythingyouwant (talk) 13:32, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The reality is that it's all a set of checks and balances. As I recall when Congress made a law creating gun free zones in schools, the law was subsequently found to be unconstitutional to which the Congress went back and added that all firearms that cross state lines are prohibited in school zones (something along those lines) making that law valid under the federal charter but the executive branch doesn't quite have a budget to fully enforce that measure by putting federal officers at each school and local authorities are under no obligation to enforce federal statutes (talk about checks and balances).  With respect to the Second Amendment, the Supreme Court has ruled it as an individual right and likely won't get reversed due to precedent unless the court learns a whole lot more.  Even the new Supreme Court justices say they'll respect the precedent.  Now, How that is interpreted by the lower courts and local legislatures remains to be seen....but clearly New York, Massachusetts, California and a few other states follow a very collectivist interpretation of what it means to "keep and bear arms" (and also what size big gulp you can buy - don't believe me? try to get a concealed carry permit 6 years after Heller in NYC - good luck.  The right of new Yorkers to bear arms is infringed in my humble mind, but the ruling has had an effect in states like Illinois already and likely there will be other consequences to the SCOTUS rulings of Heller and McDonald and there likely will be other challenges) meanwhile other states like Arizona, Mississippi, Arkansas and others infringe less on the individual right (but they still meddle).  If the Congress wants, they can remove the Second Amendment and the First but they would need 2/3 vote and ratification by the states and even then they would likely run afoul of the 9th amendment and the personal right to life which the supreme court alludes to also breathing life to the right to self defense and by extension the right to keep and bear arms (grandma needs that 44Mag to defend against the gang terrorizing her neighborhood).  Beyond that, you have the constitutions of the states, who are sovereign, so removing the second and first amendments would still mean that those rights stand in the individual states that choose to recognize them.  So Even then if the bill of rights were wiped off the face of the constitution and all the constitutions of the states, we liberals take comfort that no piece of paper grants nor binds our inalienable rights.  What most don't understand is that the founding fathers were radical liberals of a kind that modern day people don't quite grasp and they put in a whole bunch of checks and balances into the apparatus to keep interested parties from abroad, men of zeal and anarchists, monarchists or the uneducated from tearing down what was built. Wasn't it Jefferson who said, "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."-Justanonymous (talk) 20:24, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

evidence window
the evidence window is closed fyi, but I personally dont object to you giving evidence. The window was also extended several times, so you may get leniency there, but I want you to be aware so you dont get spanked unknowingly. Gaijin42 (talk) 01:24, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The evidence posting ended at 23:59 January 29. Did you get an extension? Malke 2010 (talk) 01:32, 31 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't know--who do I ask? I didn't see a "closed for business" note. Gaijin, you are proving once again what a nice person you are, when you know that we're totally on opposite sides. Kudos to you. Drmies (talk) 02:19, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * just because we disagree politically doesn't mean we can't be friends. I make it a point to have at least 50% of my fiends to be from the opposite side of my little worldview. What fun are friends that just mirror our own views and how would I ever learn anything! :-)-Justanonymous (talk) 22:33, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I read an online essay somewhere the other day about Facebook's profitability, and how it works (or doesn't, according to the author). Can't find it right now, but it had a great line containing the words "Facebook" and "echo chamber". I was interested to find that Facebook itself has "documentation", and this is interesting--I'm four or five paragraphs in. That they would argue that there's lots to be gained from more distant friends stands to reason, of course; the older I get, the more I do think that we (or I) have a tendency to stay in our own echo chambers too much. Drmies (talk) 01:21, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

evidence Response
Brief response here, because I am way over my evidence limit already, but I respect your views and would like to respond to clarify.

The "facts" are supported by more than Halbrook etc. Yes you raise a good point about the possibility of error in the NYT, but There is no doubt the laws were passed/decreed. There is no doubt announcements about the confiscation were made (although one should always mistrust the honesty of statements by the Nazis). There is no doubt there are plenty of primary sources (diaries, orders, telegrams) discussing the confiscation. All of these are documented by plenty of Holocaust histories (although admittedly they are mainly mentioned in passing and not making any sort of tyranny argument)

the "fringe" sources are needed for nothing more than their opinions. The only question really is are there opinions notable enough or significant enough for inclusion. (Or at a meta level, is the Godwining controversy notable enough) If so that then addresses your next point about the filter being used to discuss facts - The facts which are made notable by being discussed in secondary sources. (Although halbrook does go into good length actually about the Weimar laws, particularly in his new book). Halbrook is a very notable commentator and author on gun laws. He is quoted repeatedly by the supreme court on gun laws and gun history. (As is Kates, one of the other academic authors)

This is an argument that has been being raised in US gun control debates literally since Hitler was still in power (1941, Edwin Hall, quote at the top of my evidence page) To say it isnt notable or hasnt had an effect on gun control is a tough stretch. Yes, this is an argument made by partisan gun rights sources. But the arguments for gun control are also generally made by partisan gun control sources. Controversial political topics by definition are mainly going to focus on the arguments of partisan sources. It would be a pretty empty article if nobody who had a POV could be quoted. (The argument has also been made to a lesser degree internationally, but I freely admit its most notable in the US by a long shot)

Even if you consider the historical argument completely fringe, its been very notable in the gun control debate, and should be covered at a meta level (which I think the current article state does actually - its not asserting the arguments as truth, its saying that the NRA and others make the argument, and then goes into quite a bit of detail in the counter argument). You can actually source the entire paragraph to sources arguing against the argument, without changing any text imo.

My main complaint against Andy and Goethean are the gaming. Complaining that things arent sourced, and then deleting sources is about as WP:DE as it gets. Deleting content that has been in place in some form since 2003, claiming no consensus, while there are ongoing RFCs is disruptive. Note that some editors such as Scolaire, FirachaByrne etc are also making strong arguments against inclusion, but they are doing so using actual sources, actual discussion not deleting the content and saying "It violates policy, no need to discuss". If I am on the losing end of consensus, I will be dissapointed, but that is the way the wiki works. But everyone deserves a fair process of building consensus. Gaijin42 (talk) 02:33, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * And my response to Drmies is: if Grump is not reprimanded in any way for calling everyone and his mother a lowlifesonofabitch, then I hope that I can be allowed to start saying such things too.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:38, 31 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Yeah, its pretty obvious that the NPA/CIV rules are meaningless once you get to a certain level of notability on wiki. Unless an admin notices within a few seconds the block is "punitive, not preventive" and nothing is done. Andy, Eric, lots of big examples of this. (Probably myself here and there). It needs to be enforced with some teeth, or it needs to be dropped, but right now its a cudgel against the newbies basically. Gaijin42 (talk) 02:41, 31 January 2014 (UTC)


 * On the other hand, if arbcom takes a hardline on anyone, its prboably a hardline on everyone, so bans/blocks all around. I think leniency and some policy guidance is the best we can hope for at this point unless its mutually assured destruction we are looking for. Gaijin42 (talk) 02:44, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Leniency is fine as long as I get to be foulmouthed.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:46, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, I'll foulmouth you all day long if you want. Listen, Andy is not likely to be punished for anything (and, for the record, I believe his language is typically much worse than was Goethean's, whose sometimes exasperated sarcasm you all (erroneously) took for personal attacks. His foul mouth is bad, but ANI has proven that it takes much more than that to get blocked (let alone topic-banned), and the problem (well, your problem, not mine) is that Andy is usually pretty knowledgeable in his policy and guidelines. And I wouldn't say it's a matter of being new--I tend to think that under some circumstances bad words are allowed if the person uttering has built up some credit, proving that they're here for realsies. Some things are never (or hardly ever) OK. I'll block for racist and homophobic cussing, which I think is unacceptable. "Lowlifesoneofabitch"--meh, as Writ Keeper would say. It's not polite, sure. But, on the other hand, there are lots of impolite things that don't involve cussing. Anyway. Gaijin, thanks for your comments. I may get back to them later. Drmies (talk) 03:15, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I think you hit on the key point in understanding this site's apparently inconsistent approach to incivility. If an editor's track record shows that they have a clue and are dedicated to the goal of building a serious, respectable reference work, then occasional outbursts of incivility might be handled with polite discouragement rather than a block. On the other hand, if an editor's track record indicates that they're here to push their ideological agenda, or edit tendentiously, or degrade the quality and accuracy of the encyclopedia, then uncivil outbursts are likely to be treated more severely. This isn't really a "double standard"&mdash;it's a single standard, in that editors are handled in accordance with their overall commitment to and suitability for the project, rather than on narrow grounds of word choice. MastCell Talk 19:14, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * At the same time, someone who is not me might well argue that someone who knows how to write and who's been here a long time should know what not to do. I don't have an easy rebuttal for that, I'm afraid. Then again, it's usually not the bad-faith uncivil POV pushers who get baited--from personal observation. Drmies (talk) 19:38, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I think the rebuttal is that being here a long time tends to lead to burnout. We don't do a good job of dealing with editorial burnout, nor of providing support for good editors. Instead, we just wait for them to slip up and cuss someone out, then run to AN/I because "they've been here long enough to know better". (See rule #2 for the typical career arc of an intelligent, dedicated Wikipedian). MastCell Talk 19:59, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * True. But there's also an intractable problem of varying social backgrounds - regional (for example, different places really do have different lists of unmentionable words, and in some the idea of a word list is taken as unsophisticated) - and the elephant hiding under the lampshade, class. Some of you may have to trust me on this one: snideness and straightforward use of "profanity" are class markers for some of us, which is distinct from markers of education. For others, of course, they're more simply ways to assess honesty. But that's about as far as I dare go, especially since I am not a sociolinguist :-) Yngvadottir (talk) 20:08, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Just FYI Seraphimblade asked about a comment on the ArbCom workship regarding late evidence. I think the focus of the original complaint/question and therefore the response question would be about Hipocrite putting new diffs into the workship, but since you did make late commentary, you might want to make a brief mention in that thread too. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:43, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Dog back
Now why would anyone take a picture like this - and put it in the lead infobox instead of the picture that is there, in English Cocker Spaniel and        Cocker Spaniel‎; am I the one who is lost here or what? Twice. See messing with mammals   Hafspajen (talk) 04:09, 31 January 2014 (UTC) Back for the third time, this time an IP, from Honduras, Bird's-eye view is the only place this can be. Hafspajen (talk) 04:57, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Frog-style (like a Miniature Schnauzer). I wonder if it runs like a MS? (back legs in unison like a horse). Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 07:51, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Why? Cause it's their own dog! I should put that picture of Sadie in the infobox in Barbecue grill. Drmies (talk) 16:49, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Please comment at ‎'s talk, this is getting out of hands, please? He did it 7 times now. Look at this edit and this - and now he is back with an IP. He did this twice before,  is from Honduras. Hafspajen (talk) 16:51, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I've reverted some more and warned the IP. Both IP and account should be blocked if it happens again, of course. Drmies (talk) 17:02, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I make a prophetia nocturna. It will. Soon. (Countri is Inglad y es un withe cocker spaniel, he said) Hafspajen (talk) 17:05, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * No, it was two IP, I was right from the begining. Hafspajen (talk) 17:46, 31 January 2014 (UTC)




 * This image is just as bad, you just can*t have those poor quality images in the lead. The tiles are red now, and one can't se any of the dogs feathures, Hafspajen (talk) 21:03, 31 January 2014 (UTC).

These pictures are not as good pictures as the ones removed, so it is the reason why we remove them time to time, but they keep coming back. The author is putting them back all the time. There is a conflict of interest when promoting one’s own pictures. Even if I do understand the creator’s feelings for liking their own pictures, it’s not a good enough reason, adding pictures that are not up to wikipedia standards. One can not jump into an article and replace the leading picture in this random way. There is a conflict of interest when promoting one’s own pictures. We chosed that picture and the new ones arenot at all as good as the lead picture, so leave it alone, please. One can't have a sitting dog in the lead. When you see other editors don't agree with your additions, you must discuss that, but no, he just keep adding the same very bad pictures all the time, even when I explain to him why you should stop doing this and why those pictures are not good enough. And unless you have an extraordinarely wonderful picture that is much much better that the lead picture - the lead picture stays where it is.
 * Handled by --and for that, we thank you. Drmies (talk) 21:10, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, thank you all, hope he will not go on with this, with his IP -, as he did before. Hafspajen (talk) 21:17, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Autoblock. Drmies (talk) 21:20, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Talkback
FYI - because you were mentioned. No diffs were cited of course. I had to  reply  to  the message on my  tp but  my  policy  for a while now has been simply to  ignore attacks from  people who  appear to  persistently harbour an antipathy  towards all  things admin. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:22, 31 January 2014 (UTC) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:22, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm sure Epipelagic would disagree, saying they don't blah blah "all things admin", that they're only pointing at some admins, etc. Saying I made "crass attacks" is just so much hot air, even if there were diffs to back it up, because I haven't made any "crass" attacks, or even "attacks" as far as I know. Thanks for pinging me: I see no reason to respond to them. If they want to claim that I'm just another admin who isn't building content but just hinders the work of content builders, well, I'm sure they wouldn't: I think my content-building record speaks for itself, and I'm on the record as opposing (civility?) blocks for content builders like Eric. I don't think I was around (as an admin), or I just missed it, when he got blocked for "sycophant"--no one should be blocked for that. (I think, Kudpung, you and I have different opinions on Eric and that's fine.) I think Eric's criticism of the admin system is nuanced enough for my taste, and at any rate Eric knows what it's like to be blocked unjustly (as do I), so I'll have to allow him leeway. Epipelagic does not know that, and for the life of me I don't know what specifically they're pointing at, which content builders are or were hindered by which admins (I certainly wasn't hindering them in this comment. The only two cases that I know of that might fit that bill are Rob and Kiefer, but in both cases they weren't done away with by one admin, or one small group of admins. Personally, I'd like to see both come back. Both were blocked/banned for disruption of various kinds and were judged to be net negatives, I suppose, but I didn't support the site ban for Rob and, for better or for worse, I was not involved in Kiefer's ArbCom case. Or, in other words, whatever. Water off a duck's back. Take it easy Kudpung, Drmies (talk) 16:33, 31 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I just  thought  it would be right  to  link  you  to  that  discussion especially  as you  were mentioned but  where there were no  links to  support any  of the claims that  were made. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:05, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Administrators Noticeboard Incidents
I am having a problem with User:Ryulong and a couple of other editors who object to some of my recent categories. I'll admit some of them could have been divided into two precise categories instead of one vague one, however unlike alternative reproduction artificial wombs in fiction is a common science fiction theme and technology. I realized fairly quickly the categories which had almost no examples or were too subjective. However the value of mythological rapists is being called into question; as if of historical slave owners. I think both are serious concerns; but particularly that Category:Slave owner is being so opposed. I was going to list people other than U.S. presidents; however there are a lot more slave owners than convicted murderers so the list will be gigantic in the end. Thank you for the alert in the past about the notice board, I was unable to edit for a few days which is being called a lie. CensoredScribe (talk) 07:59, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, and Ryulong is having a problem with you! This is an ANI matter, not one for my talk page. I won't say you're forum shopping cause that's not nice--but posting on Jimbo's talk page and on mine? I will defend some of your categories, but I think, as do others, that you have gone a bit far. Drmies (talk) 16:41, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * In my view after thinking about it, we probably ought to have a category for slave owners, as long as reliable sources verify each of the entries. But when the first four entries added to the category are past presidents and founding fathers of the U.S., then suspicion that the motivation is pointy or POV pushing is certainly justified. Properly and neutrally populating categories is much more work and much more useful than simply creating categories. Some of the sci-fi related categories may be legitimate, but rapid creation of quite a few controversial categories is problematic. Cullen 328  Let's discuss it  03:21, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I've been racking my brain about that category too. On the one hand, sure, I suppose it matters (but I'm on the record as saying that birth year is in many regards trivial); on the other hand, that's every notable Southern planter, politician, and officer, making it relatively meaningless. Besides, one may well argue over what "slave" means, given sexual slavery and economic indenture. That's one of the problems with categories--they suppose that things can be easily categorized and that the labels are meaningful and well-defined. On Facebook, I am apparently a "she"; I must have checked that box when I signed up. So I get ads about weight loss and Rachael Ray on my sidebar. Now, I know what my plumbing is, but what it means, that's an entirely different matter. I drive a Prius, but according to the ads I see when I watch football (Broncos!) I'm probably not much of a man. Drmies (talk) 03:48, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

I seriously think slave owner will be the largest category and should be, I will go through it listing confederates and nazi camp wardens, scientists and corporations which used nazi slave labor. I'm not sure how many presidents before Lincoln other than Adams did not own slaves; that would have been a good question to have been asked in school. Thank you for being just. CensoredScribe (talk) 04:14, 1 February 2014 (UTC) Category:Mythological rape victims is being depopulated; Category:Fictional rape victims and Category:Rape victims should also be created; I believe you should be the creator. I've proposed the slave owner category on the talk page for slavery. To answer your question, I think that corporations such as IBM, Siemens, and Ford that used slave labor should be listed as slave owners. When I proposed the emperor from Star Wars was a slave owner, the argument against this was that he did not personally have slaves around. That would also exclude Hitler from being a slave owner. However owning people from a distance is still owning them, even if you never meet. CensoredScribe (talk) 23:40, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm just? Hmm. But this is getting more and more problematic. If Nazi camp wardens are slave owners, then do you equate forced labor with slavery? And which Nazi camps--there were many different ones. In Belzec and Treblinka the life expectancy was maybe a couple of hours, so that's hardly "enslavement". And the warden--did they wardens personally "own" their prisoners? What about the lower ranks? And wouldn't Hitler count as a slave owner then? Are you adding him? And Pol Pot? IG Farben used forced labor, but did they "own" them? And if so, at which level of management? The janitors? Middle management? The board? Are you limiting yourself to slavery in the Southern US (if a plantation owner had slaves, and his wife and/or children are notable by our standards, do you tag them?) and the Nazis? No, CensoredScribe, you are raising more questions than you're answering and that's in part why you're in hot water at ANI. Drmies (talk) 04:42, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, the husband of Caroline Lee Hentz rented two slaves. Doesn't that make her a slave owner in the same way that a Nazi camp warden is a slave owner? Drmies (talk) 04:42, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh god no. Those categories are disgraceful, and I would strongly object to their creation. Claiming Hitler was a slave owner shows that you have absolutely no idea about history. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 23:45, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * That's a pretty novel interpretation of things, and not what categories are set up for. Per the policy I can't believe I didn't get a policy wonk ping : A central concept used in categorising articles is that of the defining characteristics of a subject of the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having. (emphasis original) Even if it is true that Hitler and Emperor Palpatine were slave owners by proxy (and I'm not conceding that they are quite yet), that is not a descriptor that is commonly or consistently applied to either of them, and so they should not be part of a "slave owners" category. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 23:47, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * This is clearly becoming a subjective category which is the opposite of what categorization should be. Categories should not display an argument or a point of view, they are tools for organizing articles, not make some point. Without a limited and clear definition of what constitutes slavery and slave owner, these categories should not be created. This is too controversial to allow for ambiguity, for I to have one understanding of what is slavery (owning a human being) and a different editor have a varying understanding (including concentration camps). This should all be discussed among editors before the category is created or there will be confusion.
 * And there is NO way that a category on Rape Victims is going to survive more than a day. This has already been discussed at length in the past and the category was deleted. One editor doesn't get to reverse consensus-based decisions without entering into a conversation first. Liz  Read! Talk! 01:51, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Mythological rape victims will survive, if I can help it., are you aware that long, long ago I recreated the Rape victims category? I'm still interested in why Lucretia's suicide is worthy of being categorized but the very cause of that suicide isn't. Seriously, read that article and explain it to me. Drmies (talk) 05:53, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I depopulated most (but not all) of Category:Mythological rape victims because the articles did not mention rape or sexual assault, and the few that did mention rape were not "rape" in the sense as it is used now ("The Rape of Europa", "The Rape of Ganymede", "The Rape of the Sabine Women", etc.).— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 13:22, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * No, I wasn't aware, Drmies, that you had once recreated the Rape Victims category. Liz  <b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 23:23, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

I think one of the most evil and powerful human beings in history owned slaves and that much is obvious. I'm sure someone can provide a reference he selectively freed some people from camps to use them as spies for his genocide, or some other purpose, perhaps some comfort women. There has to be at least one case in recorded history; I'm simply asking what it is. I did post this on a talk page. Maybe he only owned 10 people for a month as he sent them on suicide missions. I also don't believe that the theory Hitler may have raped a particularly attractive Jewish woman has never been proposed by an academic. That seems like at least a question pursued in a book, given Hitlers possible relationship with Wittgenstein has been covered. Though I suppose wikipedia doesn't even mention the sex slaves of Moammar Gadhafi either. Again these are questions for talk pages; not things I would add to an article. I asked whether Hitler counted as a slave owner, I knew George washington counted. Hitler probably did things like that; and clues may exist somewhere; asking if anyone knows where they might be is a legitimate use of a talk page. CensoredScribe (talk) 03:49, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * You're not even sure what is true and historical and who qualifies as a slave owner. Your own uncertainty is a sign that who this category should be applied to is ambiguous and subjective. Those are two qualities that shouldn't be aspects of a Wikipedia category and are signs of a category that will be contested and, likely, deleted.  Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 05:35, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * CensoredScribe, are you for real? Hitler freeing camp victims to use them as spies? Raping Jewish women? Your "That seems like..." sentence is very ungrammatical--but you're saying that a possible relation with Wittgenstein (I assume you mean Ludwig Wittgenstein?) could provide proof of Hitler having raped a Jewish woman? This is crazy talk: you're in Area 51 territory, and I'd appreciate it if you kept Von Daniken-style speculation off my talk page. Drmies (talk) 05:53, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Any objection to adding Category:User talk pages with trolling here? Johnuniq (talk) 10:34, 4 February 2014 (UTC) Yes your talk page is not the correct place to be having this conversation; my apologies. I should have just said Hitler owned slaves by proxy; I should not have proposed yet another unsourced Hitler conspiracy theory; even a slightly more plausible one. That would be like listing Hitler as an arsonist for ordering the Reichstag building being caught on fire; a more commonly proposed theory; which is still just a theory. Knowing Ludwig Wittgenstein in grade school would obviously not prove Hitler was a rapist, just that he knew Wittgenstein and that Wittgenstein is probably the Jew of Linz as proposed by Kimberley Cornish in her book. That Hitler knew Wittgenstein which is the only theory I've tried adding to Hitlers page; as it is mentioned on the page for Ludwig Wittgenstein. Clearly there is no evidence Hitler ordered any of those things even once; however Wikipedia does include historical theories and books on them; if Wittgensteins page and The Jew of Linz are any indication. There would need to be a reference obviously; and I doubt any reference suggests Hitler broke his own racist rules like Strom Thurman or raped anyone. However such a reference may exist so asking if anyone has seen it is reasonable if kept to talk pages of the appropriate article. There are plenty of less contested examples of slave owners however; it just seemed bizarre the list of slave owners would include several U.S. presidents but not Hitler. CensoredScribe (talk) 15:06, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Or Category:Users who are too incompetent to edit Wikipedia to CensoredScribe's talk page? Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 10:49, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Johnuniq, Luke, take it easy, please. CensoredScribe, my talk page is an open space but I like to keep it happy, and while you are more than welcome to have and continue a conversation over those categories, this is just crackpot speculating. Plus, you never addressed my other points: is the wife is a slave owner also a slave owner? For instance. Drmies (talk) 15:21, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * has never survived as a category, because it is simply too broad and all-encompassing, and would apply to too many famous figures who owned slaves in quite different historical circumstances. Additional, this is not DEFINING for the vast majority - they are known to the world not as slave owners, but as presidents, emperors, kings, tyrants, etc. This is certainly something that could be added to their biography is sources are there, but it doesn't work as a category.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:58, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Right. Drmies (talk) 23:41, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Myth and narrative
Hey, I just thought of something related to your comment at that AfD about Genesis on the difference between myth and narrative. It occurred to me that there is a real difference, in that a narrative is a particular instantiation of a myth. A token as opposed to a type if that kind of jargon doesn't bother you. For a story to be a narrative it has to be realized in a particular text whereas there may be many tellings of a myth, each one a separate narrative. In the case at hand, the article is about the actual old testament text, and so *must* be called narrative. If there were other incarnations of the story in other texts, and the range of these different narratives of the creation myth became notable enough to have an article about it, we could then sensibly have both Genesis Creation Narrative (about the old testament text) and Genesis Creation Myth (about the many narratives of the myth). With many creation myths there is no existing narrative or else many not especially notable narratives, so would make sense to use the word "myth" in the title rather than narrative. So I guess I'm saying that I don't agree that there's no distinction between narrative and myth, as you argued at the AfD, but we do agree that this article should be kept. Anyway, feel free to ignore this if it doesn't interest you. It's just something I was thinking about.&mdash; alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 12:43, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Hey Alf, thanks for your note. I'm a bit cold and really should do some real work, so I can only respond briefly. I can see where you're coming from, pointing at the difference between general (myth) and specific instantiation (narrative), but I am a bit less strict in those divisions. For something like Gilgamesh that seems valid but for Beowulf (if anyone still wants to call that a myth) not so much, since we have only one text. I shouldn't say there's no distinction at all (did I? if I did, I should modify), and in the Genesis case your argument strikes me as valid. But let me tell you also that I was profoundly confused by the multiplicity of articles related to that whole affair and it would require some time and energy to figure it all out, even in my head. Is that AfD still open? Shiveringly yours, Drmies (talk) 16:47, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Still open, although it could obviously be closed early. Anyway, stay warm!&mdash; alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 17:02, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Warmer now. Listen, when you said "Creation", above, you meant "flood", I suppose? We actually have the myth part, in Flood myth (an article that's half external links). If it's a myth, it can't just be Genesis, so to speak. OK, I tweaked the opening sentences somewhat (and removed some REALLY redundant wikilinks); see what you think. Yes, that AfD is ready for closure, given the flood of keeps. Drmies (talk) 18:31, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I meant "flood." Same argument, though.  So we should have Flood Myth and then Genesis Flood Narrative.&mdash; alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 18:55, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yep--flood myth being by far the more interesting and important one. And what I should have said at the AfD was not "the distinction" but something like "this particular unexplained distinction". Drmies (talk) 20:25, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Quick learner
this is a funny one: starts yesterday, knows where to find user-icons, starts reprimanding an IP right away. Quick learner! Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   20:07, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, the IP may have been studying the matter for more than a century. Drmies (talk) 20:28, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Only in this life, or also previous ones? (Real life, I mean, though there may be different opinions on what's "real") Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   20:43, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, it is still better then gebruiker Psycho. Hafspajen (talk) 17:57, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Hindu Kush thing is now at AN/I
Hello Drmies, authoritah demands that I notify you, that your talkpage discussion with me above, hath been linked at a noticeboard. Sorry!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Khabboos

Thanks for improving wikipedia, talk to you later. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 02:57, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Great. Well, right now I'm just pruning here and there. Did I miss a memo? When did India become hot ticket number one? Drmies (talk) 03:09, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Ask .  Cullen <sup style="color:purple;">328  Let's discuss it  03:24, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, no, it is user? Voltaires fault. (Maybe he should be called used? )Hafspajen (talk) 03:31, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * When I appeared at the scene?  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   04:58, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't flatter yourself, Joshua. Bescheidenheid siert de mens (though I like your moxie). And if I were you I'd stay away or you'll just get blocked again. Drmies (talk) 05:03, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   05:07, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * [Dude, I'm kidding--geintje, meneer Sonneberg.] What's funny is that there seems to be relatively little caste warfare. Joshua, didn't I see you involved in some parapsychology or something? And isn't there something somewhere about Hindu theology? These are very different issues from a few years ago., have you been that effective? Drmies (talk) 05:17, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

I can't help it! I'm more at the Corinne-side of the spectrum, I'm afraid. The past few days were great for cathching up some good sense of associative humor from you, Hafspajen and 74. See the loooong story. Anyway, the "friends" may as well be Blades, and not Superman. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   05:54, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Just send me an email with the names of all your alternate accounts so I can make them immune to prosecution, and I'll send you the number of myTaoist vegetarian. Drmies (talk) 17:22, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Mies, I am disappointed. Ugh. Taoist vegetarian... How about that Bacon? Hafspajen (talk) 19:40, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

IBAN related problem
As you will probably recall, the name of Soccer in Australia is a controversial issue. I have probably been the editor most strongly defending the consensus established, and then repeated twice more in the past two years, to use that name. This has involved repeatedly pointing out the flaws in the arguments of those wanting to change it, and reverting the changes that often happen several times a day, against that consensus, in many articles.

While I lay no claim to owning the article, I have put in a lot of effort to defend that consensus, the kind of activity I regard as important in Wikipedia.

Right now we have a brand new section created with this edit.

Now, I have a huge amount to contribute to that topic. The editor involved, who only recently began to "care" about this particular article, knows that. The IBAN effectively tells me to not respond. I seriously question that editor's motives. He has offered no new evidence, apart from a claimed vote count. I believe that creating the thread is a deliberately confrontational act, possibly trying to bait me. He's certainly not going out of his way to make peace.

Where do I go from here? Should I start my own thread on a similar topic? (Slightly mischievous suggestion.) HiLo48 (talk) 05:42, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm. Maybe (haha, no). HiLo, if you can--succinctly--make the case that you were there before and that Skyring possibly followed you there recently, maybe you have a point. But this would be a balancing act: you should suggest that you are being followed there without claiming ownership over the article. Alternately, you could argue that this is indeed baiting, but the required burden of evidence might well be high, and no one reads long paragraphs anymore. I wonder if the policy wonks (,, , --just to pick a few) have any ideas--folks, is this something HiLo could/should bring up at AN? Or should he just suck it up? Drmies (talk) 17:19, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that's a pretty clear case of baiting from Skyring. Whether it is provable is another matter, but it would require a pretty good explanation as to how it isn't baiting from Skyring... Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 17:21, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd have to review the history of the discussions to reach any conclusion. If HiLo wants to argue that Skyring's post is baiting or effectively a violation of the IBAN in and of itself, the safest course would be to take it to ANI (where the ban was imposed), although I suppose AN is also an acceptable forum.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:28, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I really don't want to "argue" this anywhere. I do have a reputation, perhaps partly deserved, some of it certainly not, and every time I make a complaint at AN/I, there's a massive pile-on of critical posts, including from some Administrators, telling the world how bad a person I am, rather than discussing my concerns. I just want to be able to continue what I regard as useful work defending a consensus on the article in question, and feel prevented from doing so in the thread I've mentioned. HiLo48 (talk) 04:21, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I always prefer AN for such cases: it's less of a slugfest, dramafest, trollfest... HiLo has a pretty bad reputation, as the last thread indicated, and that has a tendency to disturb legitimate complaints. Drmies (talk) 18:41, 1 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure I've ever been called a "policy wonk" before. "Public wanker", yes; "policy wonk", no.  I seem to find myself on HiLo's side on this one  D  P  20:47, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Policy wonk and public wanker are, of course, not mutually exclusive. In any event, I think Drmies is buttering us up hoping we'll do his job for him. Worked, too. :-) I don't really mind; he's always helping me out.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:02, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm glad we agree on some things, wonkishly or not. Now what do we do? I have chastised HiLo in the past for various things and our relationship, if we have one, is rocky to say the least, but I agree with him on this one. Who will cast the first stone? Drmies (talk) 21:07, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Yak yak yak yak yak yak ... some talk, Ents [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Skyring&diff=prev&oldid=593455112 do]. NE Ent 21:12, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, sure. The response is below--thanks. Then again, while you were shuffling electrons around, I played outside with the kids, drank coffee, cleaned up, went grocery shopping, made a rub and applied it so some spareribs for tomorrow, cooked minestrone (with delicious Dinosaur kale (nice article!), cooked tapioca pudding, ate dinner, did the dishes, and drank a New Belgium Shift. So yak yak yak? Drmies (talk) 01:30, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It is pretty obvious gaming of the system for an IBAN editor to develop their interest in a topic which just coincidentally is the one most likely to irritate their opponent. If a polite "please stop" is not productive, may I suggest returning the matter to ANI and asking for a Skyring/Pete topic ban to be added to the IBAN. It is obvious from the comment below that NE Ent's request is not enough. Johnuniq (talk) 04:12, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Can something please be done to bring that AN/I discussion to a close, one way or another? It's reaching the stage where editors who don't like me are starting to post unsubstantiated claims about me again. And the thread is not really supposed to be about me. Pete is now running a farewell thread back at the Talk:Soccer in Australia page, continuing to argue against my position with "facts" I believe I have repeatedly shown to be wrong. I don't think any of this helps Wikipedia. HiLo48 (talk) 21:39, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced
Hi, in this discussion, I was surprised when you said: "Support. 172's arguments would be valid if there were actual content in the article: there isn't." Apparently the bulk of that article's content got trashed misplaced, but has since been restored, and this additional material added. You may want to look at the rest of the article and re-evaluate your merge position. I appreciate your candid remarks over at the AfD. Thank you. 172.129.34.141 (talk) 20:09, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm, yes, I see that now. But I see two problem still. 1. Your scientist talks of "gun culture", not "gun cultures", and thus the promise of the title isn't fulfilled. 2. As other editors have argued in their edit summaries (trashing your content, I suppose), there's really too much from one person, one book. So in general I would certainly have supported a trimming (down to a couple of sentences, maybe), though maybe not complete removal, and so I don't see enough valid content ("valid" in my opinion, of course) to keep the article. Thanks, but I'm sticking to my guns, for now. But another thing is I don't really care which way it goes--I just want one discussion over with, so we have only half a dozen or so left. Drmies (talk) 20:54, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

What's going on?
I find a note on my talk page from User:NE Ent, asking that I remove a contribution on one page because I haven't edited a different page. Odd.

Looking further, I find the source is here on this page, so I'm copying my note to NE Ent here. Talk amongst yourselves, please.

Thanks for your note, but I think you're looking at the wrong page history. My contributions here have been ongoing for some time. August 2013, going by the page history and this diff. There may be earlier edits, but that one predates the IBAN. Further discussion on the RFC for name change, where I supported the current title. After doing a little research I find that "Soccer" is now deprecated amongst media and sports organisations, accordingly I now support a name change to reflect the changed reality.

This seems to be a majority position amongst editors, going by the !vote here. There are some points raised in the discussion immediately preceding, where my position is made quite clear: we should set aside our own personal opinions and look for good sources. My feeling is that whatever I might have called the game fifty years ago as a schoolchild in Victoria, the name has changed, especially over the last few years,

Do we have any guidance on where to proceed? My understanding is that both participants to an IBAN are able to participate in !votes for RfCs and so on so long as there is no interaction. I think every editor involved is entitled to a voice in that sort of discussion, and if any editor were to lodge a !vote in the ongoing "Gauge Support" discussion I would not seek to have it removed on a spurious technicality. It is a matter of fairness and commonsense. --Pete (talk) 21:33, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Gerda Nicolson
If you or any of your page talk stalkers want to look at this lovely article, please do. I came across it because I was looking at the contributions of an account that is problematic. That user made only a minor edit to the article, and I wasn't even concerned about that, but the article itself was amazing. It had no footnotes, only two external links, one to IMDb and the other to an "unofficial" site (the site of a 28-year-old who is obsessed with the actress). Nonetheless the article was both horribly written and had some rather astounding claims:
 * She was in London in 1959 and "it has been recognised that she attended nearly every stage performance during this time."
 * "Nicolson went on to later say that the producer awarded her with the role on account of her stunning legs."
 * "Gentle and feminine, Gerda Nicolson was a very popular member of the Prisoner cast."
 * Take a look at the Legacy (part of this section was copied from IMDb trivia) and Own Awards sections.

Nothing, of course, is susbtantiated. In any event, I gutted the article, but it's been restored by the other account with a warning on my talk page about vandalism (since removed by me). I'm not touching the article again because I don't want someone to claim I'm WP:INVOLVED. Of course some people may understandably believe that I shouldn't have slashed it, and that's fine. Anyone who looks at the article can do whatever they deem is appropriate. Looking at her IMDb page, it sounds like she's sufficiently notable to have an article here. It just needs to be written by someone other than a fan or fans. Considering that she's been dead for over 20 years, it's unlikely there will be a lot on the web, but I haven't checked.--Bbb23 (talk) 02:27, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm. Well, I pruned. (I see no need to cut it all--only some of the claims were non-neutral or outlandish, in my opinion.) Some of the claims, a quick Google search verifies, can be sourced, but I found only snippet views and I'm a bit loath to use those. We could leave it to the experts, like . I left a note for the editor. Drmies (talk) 03:53, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Mrm7171
Drmies, I am concerned once more. Mrm7171 has again launched destructive edits. You can see the recent activity on the talk page of the journal Work & Stress and the talk page of industrial and organizational psychology. Iss246 (talk) 04:05, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Iss, I can't be the one to judge possible disruption on that talk page and in the article by myself, at least not right now and to the point where I decide on a block--certainly the previous block reasons don't apply, and there's no edit warring. Now, there was serious disruption back in October, but I can't see easily whether this is a continuation of that session (where I see, basically, Mrm going up against three or four others and not getting their consensus for his edits). I think you need to decide whether this (and perhaps issues in other articles) are serious enough for another ANI thread. I can't make that decision for you nor can I foresee how it might go. Drmies (talk) 05:10, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi Drmies. Please refer to my comments at base of Talk:Work & Stress. Also the recent and civil consensus building on the occupational safety and health article between my self and 2 other editors. My edits on the organizational psychology article are content related only, and civil. In no way are my edits disruptive. I also thought it was wise to instead ask for another independent editor's, (MarkViking's) comments about the multiple reverts made by iss246 on the 17th January as Mark was involved in developing consensus on that contentious article. I also today chose not revert, and instead have asked iss246 and any other editors if we can discuss this multiple reverts issue instead. Thanks.Mrm7171 (talk) 04:53, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry to bother you again
Looking at this diff, I can't help but feel that the message has not been appreciated. Looking at WP:IBAN, we see, "For example, if editor X is banned from interacting with editor Y, editor X is not permitted to … make reference to or comment on editor Y anywhere on Wikipedia, whether directly or indirectly;"

That discussion with a third party looks to me to be about as direct a reference as you can get.

Apart from the specified exceptions listed immediately following. I am now making use of one of those exceptions to ask you to issue a gentle reminder, if I may presume upon your goodwill once more. --Pete (talk) 20:21, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Pete, I can't look at any right now, I'm sorry: my shift is over. On my to-do list is to ponder even more whether I should take the previous matter to AN: I was pondering that already yesterday but the toolserver was down and I couldn't check what I wanted to check on that soccer/football page. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 20:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * That's okay. By raising the matter here, I trust the point will be appreciated. No further action required there.


 * On the other matter, I'm not aiming to be obnoxious. I guess if one is looking to be offended, one will be offended no matter what. Language is something I'm interested in, and I'm charmed by the way it is changing. I see it all over the world, phrases now moving with viral speed through the public consciousness. The dictionaries - and Wikipedia, I suppose! - are struggling to keep up. It's a different world to the one I grew up in. What hit me was the speed with which media outlets embraced the new usage of "football" over the long-familiar "soccer". I hadn't noticed, but now my eyes are opened, it's everywhere. --Pete (talk) 20:42, 2 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Pete, I won't make much of this (I mean "I" as in "me", not as in "if I were you"--obviously you feel differently). You are welcome to ask at AN whether it is deemed a violation; I suppose technically it could be deemed thus. Drmies (talk) 23:03, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Request
Hi Drmies, if you have time, would you look at Menstrual synchrony. There is an IP who does not understand the meanings of "methodical" and "methodological". I have already reverted 3 times, and although I think it falls under a 3rr exception, I'm not going to revert again, but the changes as they stand are ridiculous, so maybe a third party can explain it to the IP better than me. --I am One of Many (talk) 23:00, 2 February 2014 (UTC) "Methodical flaws" is possible, I suppose, but it's awfully strange and doesn't fit the bill here. Drmies (talk) 23:09, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Fascinating topic. Strange that there seems to be some doubt about it--isn't it common sense borne out by experience? (And why a references from The Straight Dope?) Drmies (talk) 23:05, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * reverted a final time. I left an edit warring note, since I don't think anything can be added to the explanation already given.
 * It turns out that once the theoretical problem of what synchrony means (phase locking or some type of probabilistic phase locking) was pointed out together with methodological issues that created biases towards the statistical detection of synchrony, it could not be replicated. One of these days I'll get around to finishing this article because it is very interesting case in science. Cheers. I am One of Many (talk) 23:38, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I take that back: it's perfectly appropriate here in a meta sense, taking it to mean to make the same incorrect change three or four times in a row. Drmies (talk) 23:12, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * In the sense that some of the methodological problems were repeated in several studies (though not after they were clearly pointed out).I am One of Many (talk) 23:38, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Just curious
Why did you think that "88" was an unfortunate name? It makes me think of the piano. Something to do with German artillery in WW II? As I said, just curious. BMK (talk) 04:30, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * BTW, thanks for not reading me the riot act during my unfortunate meltdown recently. BMK (talk) 04:32, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * (tps) Eighth letter of alphabet repeated= Heil Hitler (often used as a tattoo by idiots). I'd be interested to know what 786 means-it appeared a few years ago as Islamic graffiti (pre 2000). Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 04:58, 3 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Unless they are Chinese, because the Chinese think that 88 is a lucky number, stands for dubble happiness and brings wealth.. Hafspajen (talk) 00:10, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks, I didn't know that. BMK (talk) 12:40, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Yep, all that. More or less tongue in cheek, though. One can't choose one's IP any more than one can choose being straight, or beautiful. Drmies (talk) 15:10, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * BMK, I'll read it to you later if you like. Been kind of busy with IBANs and gun control and stuff. Good thing there's no more football to distract me. But you know you have a tendency to rub people the wrong way sometimes...and I say this out of love and affection. Also, the whole family is singing musical songs these days, especially at breakfast. Can we trade places until this blows over? Drmies (talk) 15:12, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * One of the side effects of some of the meds I'm taking is that many everyday phrases remind me of the same or similar phrases in various song -- rock songs, folk song, show tunes, children's songs, TV theme songs -- and I feel... not "compelled" exactly, but "interested" in singing part of that song. It's completely suppressible, so it's not like it's making me a social pariah, but it is a bit odd. Be careful, once your family gets the musical theatre bug, it may never go away. BMK (talk) 21:13, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

The 88 thing is very common in the neoNazi movement. 786 seems less controversial, seems to be the equivalent of some Jews/Christians using G-d instead of spelling out God, or saying "The lord" instead of YHWH etc. (stolen from the internet, unreliable, possibly wrong, but seems likely to me)

"786" is the total value of the letters of "Bismillah al-Rahman al-Rahim". In Arabic there are two methods of arranging letters. One method is the most common method known as the alphabetical method. Here we begin with Alif, ba, ta, tha etc. The other method is known as the Abjad method or ordinal method. In this method each letter has an arithmetic value assigned to it from one to one thousand. The letters are arranged in the following order: Abjad, Hawwaz, Hutti, Kalaman, Sa'fas, Qarshat, Sakhaz, Zazagh. This arrangement was done, most probably in the 3rd century of Hijrah during the 'Abbasid period, following other Semitic languages such as Phoenician, Aramaic, Hebrew, Syriac, Chaldean etc.

If you take the numeric values of all the letters of the Basmalah, according to the Abjad order, the total will be 786. In the Indian subcontinent the Abjad numerals became quite popular. Some people, mostly in India and Pakistan, use 786 as a substitute for Bismillah. They write this number to avoid writing the name of Allah or the Qur'anic ayah on ordinary papers. This tradition is not from the time of the Prophet -peace be upon him- or his Sahabah. It developed much later, perhaps during the later 'Abbasid period. We do not know of any reputable Imams or Jurists who used this number instead of the Bismillah. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:53, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * This reminds me that I'm teaching Dr. Faustus soon--the name of Jahweh, forwards and backwards anagrammatized! Drmies (talk) 01:02, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

A Fight for a Good dog Barnstar



 * Sadie was a bad dog today. I caught her napping on the couch again. Drmies (talk) 19:55, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, bad bad napping... dog - !!Hafspajen (talk) 22:28, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Why is everybody crazy when it comes to dog articles? A whole tall story tale here. Sigh Hafspajen (talk) 00:18, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Haha, a cute puppy named Zoe, and you just removed it? did you try sourcing it? Drmies (talk) 15:04, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Language problems
My recent facebook posts about a "safety" after the first "offensive snap" has resulted in my friends and family asking me who was the person I was snarky with and then later apologised to. No, I'm not making this up. Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 11:47, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * You know, I hadn't thought about that, but I see it now, yes. My kinfolk back home has no idea what this sport is all about, of course--how does one explain the magnitude of the Iron Bowl to a furriner? (I went to the last one in Birmingham.) Drmies (talk) 04:23, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Fix a page move
Have you got time to fix a couple of errant page moves? We had Goud Saraswat Brahmin but someone moved it to Gaud or Gawd Saraswat Brahmin and then also did something very weird at Gaud Saraswat Brahmin. They've basically ignored COMMONNAME and were probably unaware of how we treat alternate spellings but I don't have the powers to fix it. The situation should be:
 * Goud Saraswat Brahmin contains the content proper, as it did until recently
 * Gaud Saraswat Brahmin and Gawd Saraswat Brahmin redirect to that content. The latter is a redlink at present but I'll sort that one out. - Sitush (talk) 11:57, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I got this, hopefully correctly. Yngvadottir (talk) 13:50, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, that looks right to me. Thanks very much. - Sitush (talk) 14:10, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * , you mean "ta", right? Don't confuse me, man. Drmies (talk) 04:20, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

copyright help
While trying to find an article on a particular starfish named "Crown of Thorns" I stumbled across Crown of thorns. The wording of several sections had a strong copyvio smell to me, and then found http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04540b.htm Normally at this point I would go straight to CSD as copyvio. But then I also found https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/Crown_of_Thorns which appears to have mostly the same content. So with the copyright problem resolved, it seems like we may be left with WP:V WP:RS WP:POV issues. the 1913 encyclopedia doesn't really have any footnotes or anything, so we are basically saying our content is WP:V to itself, and since its a catholic source, its not going to be the most neutral on anything that could cast doubt on the official line - Its not a huge deal here, we are basically just describing historical-ish legends (The relics section) but it seems odd. I would put good money that there probably a few thousand articles exactly like this (one per entry in the original source) so I cant imagine this hasn't come up before, but I dunno what to do. Seems like any real attempt to clean this up is going to just open up a ginormous can of worms. I think i may go over to my corner and ignore the issue :) Advice? Ideas? Gaijin42 (talk) 21:01, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I might could have a look after dinner. The Catholic Encyclopedia is in the public domain now. Its reliability is a mixed bag: sure, they're "POV", but I hate using that term as a kind of generality--as if Catholics can't be objective. Having said that, specific claims will need to be used carefully: there's a thread on ANI involving Matthew, where an apparent convenient yardstick is used: no theological sources older than 50 years--but I may be abbreviating unfairly here. Drmies (talk) 23:50, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The only section where I see real difficulty is "Purported remnants", sourced to an archived personal website. I don't really have a reason to doubt its correctness, but there must be better sources out there, though I don't know of a single monograph dedicated to it (not really my field, and I haven't looked around much yet). The thorns in Charlemagne's possession can probably be written up; he had a lot of relics, and both he and his hagiographers made much of them. BTW, this is the kind of article that one can really sink their teeth into, since there are legends, possibly historical accounts, afterlives, and uses, not to mention illustrations from church art. Drmies (talk) 00:29, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I found references (from local newspapers) for two of them. Both date from the Counter-Reformation, and I wouldn't be surprised if most of them (or, most of the ones outside of France and Italy) date from that period. Just imagine how exciting it must have been to acquire one of those thorns. Anyways, don't take my word for it: Patrick J. Geary's Furta Sacra is a blast, and accessible to the lay person as well--and Furta sacra (the concept, not the book title) deserves an article. Drmies (talk) 00:43, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Something odd is going on
I was looking at a discussion and a username caught my eye (Sportsfan 1234) being quite similar to Sportsfan5000, whom are both probably the same person. But that led me to Benjaminolympique, who posted a series of odd help requests to several user talk pages. I suspect this is a bot of some sorts. Any idea as to what is going on?Two kinds of pork (talk) 05:11, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm. If I had to guess I'd say that Benjamin is a good-willing but somewhat inept editor who does a lot of copying and pasting in those admittedly odd requests. I'd seen 5000, I think, and didn't know until just now that they were sock-blocked (I'm not familiar with the master). One does wonder where 1234 comes from all of sudden, racking up hundreds and thousands of fairly gnomish edits, but I don't see a similarity with 5000. It is interesting, however, how the layout of the talk page messages by 5000 and Benjamin are similar, but their edits run concurrently. So I don't know what to think of it, sorry. Drmies (talk) 05:42, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by "they were sock-blocked?" I'm confused. Two kinds of pork (talk) 20:06, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Blocked as a sockpuppet account: see User:Sportsfan5000. Drmies (talk) 20:11, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * What a coincidence. I think I added an extra "s". The user is actually Sportfan5000.  Look at the history of this new article.  1234 edited it minutes after it was created? Two kinds of pork (talk) 20:16, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Holy hit, that' confuing--what are the odd? But why would 1234 and 5000 be the same? Good-hand bad-hand accounts? That strikes me as odd. Maybe checking their edit overlap will tell you something? Drmies (talk) 20:31, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Animals are creatures of habit, e.g. the same naming convention. I suspect he meant to edit under one account and not the other, but I've no idea why one would do that. Seems a pain to log out and login again.Two kinds of pork (talk) 20:35, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

It wasn't "a well-explained and productive edit"
Maybe you should read the source cited: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2368023.stm (Even a vice-mayor of the city who visited the scene had to be treated for gas poisoning.)

Spending 10 seconds to use the magic of google, you'll learn it was Valery Shantsev who was there. He's entered the building and 4 hours after the assault reported on the successful operation, but he did not say a word about casualties. Instead he said: "I saw dead terrorists. I myself saw Barayev, an Afghan and an Arab." (there was no Afghan). I guess they treated him just in case (and gave him the antidote).

About the SOBRs, afair they've entered with no gas masks for some reason, through the ground level entries. They then spend time vomiting and fainting after they entered the show room. (Obviously, the FSB did not inform the MVD about the gas.)

If I start re-writing this article, I'll end with what I did with this very related article after just several hundred edits (starting point looked like that, that is was even worse).

I also (more) recently rewrote OMON, who were there too (even if just standing around and scratching their asses). And by this I rewrote my own article, which I've originally write in the 2000s.

This is "productive edits". --Niemti (talk) 09:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * What does "even" mean in that sentence? Why is a vice-mayor so important? Are they normally immune to gas poisoning? Or, why didn't you explain this, one way or another, in an edit summary? That also takes ten seconds. Drmies (talk) 15:16, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

What? Let me think. It's important because the "harmless sleeping gas" was, I don't know, a poison? Why didn't you see there's a ref there? It takes 1 second to notice. --Niemti (talk) 19:40, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Think harder. You're making some vice-mayor important, for no reason that I can see. Your comment is not all that different from the IP's below, which also indicates that every little detail is important. (And who said I didn't see a ref there? I even read the article.) Tell you what, a deer jumped through a shop window in Wetumpka. It's sourced. Where would you like to add that? Drmies (talk) 19:49, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Maybe you think harder. As a result of the gas and a bungled first aid effort, 130 of the hostages died. Those who did survive inhaled large quantities of the knockout gas, the ingredients of which remain secret. Russian president Vladimir Putin maintains the gas was harmless (...) "There's a way to check that. Let him take his own children, and make them breathe it," says Marat Abdrakhimov. On this fourth anniversary of the gas attack, the survivors are again calling for a thorough study, to determine if the chemicals used on them were in fact poisonous. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/4-years-later-moscow-hostages-suffering-25-10-2006/ Why did they treat the vice-mayor (yes, an important government figure, even in the Soviet times when he was the Party first secretary for Moscow, and he's now governor of Nizhny Novogrod region, and who went in a gas mask) for just small possible contact with the "harmless" "gas" (we don't even know it was a gas, it might have been a nerve agent), at the same time while former hostages were dying and they were refusing disclosing what's killing them, or giving an antidote to the ordinary people DYING in completely unprepared civilian hospital? That's why "even". The article is badly written altogether, but your stupid deer comparison is insulting to the innocent human victims. --Niemti (talk) 09:07, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * This OR, theese connections and conclusions (and the load of "even") are best placed in a letter to the editor or on a blog. Drmies (talk) 02:56, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

woozle effect
Thanks for asking me what "yelling" had to do with my edits that were so quickly reverted.

I have a physical disability that makes typing very difficult. So it's frustrating to try and improve a wiki page to see it instantaneously reverted when the edit:


 * might have been discussed first on the talk page
 * discussed on my talk page
 * improved
 * reorganized

I find that sort of instant reversion a violation of what I had thought was the wiki prime directive: assume good faith as well as "improve don't just delete".

So I see a few things:

ONE: Woozle effects as seen in popular culture, Stephen Colbert's Wikiality and Elephant Prank are prime examples.

TWO: Woozle effect used in academic research: Google Scholar has 440 examples of that.

THREE: An AFD that is clearly motivated for 'political' reasons, IE, it's feminist vandalism from a Reddit subreddit

FOUR: My desire to improve the article in a way good for WIki, good for everyone.

BUT YES, I AM ABSOLUTELY TIRED WITH WIKILAWYERS REVERTING EVERY LAST LITTLE THING BECAUSE THEY WOULD RATHER BE JUDGE AND JURY AND NOT BE COEDITORS.

SO:

You tell me.

Where is the best place to place cultural examples of the woozle effect in the article? Where is the best place to cite its uses in academic papers?

And tell me why anyone would ever want to edit the wikipedia when it's know how swiftly edits are reverted and not first improved? 184.101.115.101 (talk) 18:53, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Just drop the all-caps. Well, if you have one, even just one, academic article that discusses Colbert and elephants, feel free to re-add the content. How about you add Colbert's commentary to every single article? He has an eagle in his opening clip--maybe that should go in Bald Eagle. The place to cite academic discussions (not just "use") of the Woozle effect is in Woozle effect. The place to mention that Colbert used the word is on Facebook, maybe. Or Myspace. Drmies (talk) 19:54, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I can supply 184 with the perfectly-kosher-yet-still-allcaps description of what they experienced: WP:NINJA-reverting.  :-)     It is a bad thing, even though the WP-namespace-page is kinda funny.  There was a time when WP:PRESERVE was respected, and WP:AGF also extended to folks with few edits.  But collaborative editing is pretty selectively applicable nowadays.
 * Recent evidence at Chanakya. There is a person dubbed 117 deleting things for no apparent reason, in a series of three edits.  ClueBot rollbacks them, but simultaneously a user manually reverts the middle-edit.  So because of the double-revert, once auto and once manual, the article ends up with a "birth" section followed by a second identical-duplicate "birth" section.  Obviously a bug.  Easy to fix:  delete one of the dupes.  98 fixed it, and is ninja-reverted by Stiki.  Later, 106 fixes it, and is ninja-reverted by TW.  They both get talkpage-template-spams.  They both were making their very first edit evah.  For obvious reasons;  this was low-hanging-fruit.  But we are too busy-busy to appreciate them, so we revert their improvements, and leave them a form letter about how they were "not constructive".  Result:  they leave.
 * As for this woozle-thing... 184 is fed up, sure, because they want *help* not reversion. If they did something wrong, they want somebody to explain what was done incorrectly and/or *help* them fix it and/or *help* them learn how.  Reverts are a slap-in-the-face.  Is wikipedia supposed to be adversarial?  If not, how do we make it so beginners don't perceive it as adversarial?  Please don't say, we redefine 'revert' as instead the "we love you so much we just placed your edit in the holy history hole" because that's not gonna work.  :-)   &mdash; 74.192.84.101 (talk) 13:56, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * If someone starts adding some notes from a journal article and they make a mistake of some kind, sure. If they're making some academic case, however poorly, sure. But if such matter on the talk page is accompanied by a herd of elephants and an American TV personality in the article, it's a different matter. Drmies (talk) 02:47, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Dagosnavy
Dagosnavy is an old wiki-friend of mine from wayback, normally one of the milder editors you come across. Hence, I was kind of surprised to see you blocking him for 72 hrs on a first offense. I've known the guy for something like 7 years and I can honestly say I've never seen him behave like that before. After reviewing the talk page history, not exactly his finest moment. I agree with your comments that neither behaved like adults.

We of course both have experience of that particular IP editor, you may recall a previous incarnation. If it were a named account behaving like that, well they'd have been site banned years ago. And from my personal knowledge, he has behaved in exactly the same way for the last 3 years whether you respond civilly or not.

The thing is many editors have a tendency to revert when confronted by a foul mouthed Ip editor and may not examine the edits in the detail they otherwise might have. They simply assume they're a vandal. So at least part of the reaction he engenders is down to his behaviour, not to excuse the response but it does go someway to explaining why Dagosnavy behaved like a WP:DICK. You'll note in the link above, that I more than went out of my way to engage with the guy and the response I got. I rather think its not the way wikipedia treats IP editors (which I agree is often less than optimal), rather the guy behind that IP enjoys abusing editors as being an IP there is no long term sanction.

I do wonder though, if blocking both for 72 hrs is sending the right message. That IP has been blocked something like a dozen times that I'm aware of and that would have led to a long block for a named account for recidivism. A block of a long term productive editor (with a clean block record) on a par with an editor who has a long history of abusive behaviour. Wee Curry Monster talk 20:12, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your response. You make valid points, though the edit warring and the extent of the insults was serious enough to warrant 72 hours--but YMMV, of course. And I have to tell you I was surprise to see all that coming from someone who's been here so long. [Oh no! That car discussion! Yeah, I remember that now.] I tell you what, if would place another unblock request, acknowledging the edit warring in the article (which means, in my book, acknowledging that the edit that started it all was not vandalism) and on the IP's talk page (the IP had the right to make those reverts on their own talk page), then I could easily support such a request: I hope you noticed that I wasn't trying to be a typical abusive admin asshat in my somewhat lengthy note on their talk page. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 20:25, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * No worries, I have given him some fairly frank advice on his page and I hope he takes it to heart. I did notice your message giving some good advice but I think he may be feeling a bit hard done by at the moment.  Take care, regards, Wee Curry Monster talk 20:34, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Cough,, cough. Regards, Wee Curry Monster talk 08:55, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Khm
The user was blocked because he/she had way too poor Swedish. Really poor. Wonder if this is a reason too block? Hafspajen (talk) 20:40, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Who? Drmies (talk) 00:58, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * You mentioned that -but now they think it was a sock. He was editing the Swedish wiki using a mega-crapy bad Swedish, so somebody blocked it.   -this is how I speak Indonesian. Hafspajen (talk) 01:06, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * .By this edit I say he is not Swedish but uses Google translation to make fun of people, btw he is blocked indef.Hafspajen (talk) 01:23, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Right. I was wondering whether you were referring to, who does not appear to exist. Well, yes, blocked. Bye Bye Till The Next Time. Drmies (talk) 02:17, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Khm was a cough, however one may say that in English. Hafspajen (talk) 07:16, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Ha, I never even heard that song! Thanks! I just had a blast listening to "Putain Putain"--the best attempt at writing out the lyrics is here--out of order, but nicely trilingual. "Vachement bien", "as good as a cow"--that always made me laugh in French class. Drmies (talk) 20:21, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

One intersecting edit in two months.
Hey, I haven't interacted with User:Two kinds of pork for over two months, since we interacted here on your page back then. But since then I made one edit where I added the word "self-reportedly" and it's somehow evidence of undue harassment and conspiratorial "following". I don't mind civil disagreement, but I don't think this calls for veiled threats on my talk page. I recognize that this accusation against me is, of course, the biggest disaster that ever happened to anyone ever, but I thought I should mention the attitude I got for it, just in case I ever appear on the same talk page as him in the future, in three months or so. (And if my thinking's off about this, I trust you to let me know.) Thanks! <span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#01110f;font-size:66%;">__ E L A Q U E A T E  22:05, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * This isn't the first time I've noticed you editing a random page after me, and I asked you about it. You pretty much confirmed you were monitoring my editing history.  I asked you to stop.  This has nothing to do with drmies talk page, as you admitted that you were watching my contributions. IIrc the last time you did this you also used the "undo" button instead of just making your additions.  I wonder why you did that then and now, and I suspect it was so I would get the mail flag box.  This can all go away.  Just don't creep after me.Two kinds of pork (talk) 22:32, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * If I hadn't used undo to revert your deletion, would you accuse me of hiding an edit? You're not being monitored. Don't mischaracterize a single common edit after months of any contact as "watching". I said I stumbled onto a curious edit you made on a baseball player today, after noticing some of your odd comments on a noticeboard. What I "admitted" is that it was coincidental. The last time (again months ago) I looked was when I noticed your diffs being deleted from a page history and I was good-faith checking if you had a history of vandalism. I think your threshold before dropping accusations of sinister intent is a little low here. If you're spoiling for a fight or looking for a conspiracy against you, count me out.<span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#01110f;font-size:66%;">__ E L A Q U E A T E  00:17, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I can't judge whether there is stalking going on from one or two edits, no one can. If editor X accuses Y of stalking and Y says "I'm not", then AGF dictates pretty much that X build a case. If Y has indeed never been to article Z, and shows up after X, maybe, but even then it's not necessarily stalking, since that requires the intent to harass. I don't know if there's bad blood between the two of you, but if there is, why don't you talk it out and figure out a. if you all can't promise to make an effort to stay way from each other or b. if you call can't go ahead and edit something together? It's a strange experiment, maybe, but who knows. Also, Two kinds of pork, I hope I'm not offending you by saying that I cooked you for seven hours in a slow cooker with orange juice, lemon juice, cumin, and Mexican oregano, and then I cut you into small pieces. Tomorrow you are going to be fried in your own fat (skimmed that off the top), and I will call you carnitas. So, pork fat and pork--I can call that Two Kinds of Pork. Elaqueate, you may come by and bring the tortillas, and we'll sit down at the table of brotherhood. Come on y'all, certainly you have better things to do. In the end, is Dock Ellis a better article? Remember, we're here for a Greater Good. Drmies (talk) 00:47, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Hungry now. Thanks for the words. It's given me something to consider about how edits can be perceived over and above intent.<span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#01110f;font-size:66%;">__ E L A Q U E A T E  01:13, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, at your kitchen, it sounds like the policy is Assume Good Food. (I just thought of that and had to add it, because when is that ever going to come up again?) <span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#01110f;font-size:66%;">__ E L A Q U E A T E  01:45, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, and nicely done! but it's also torture, since I have one daughter who's the cutest kid in the world and refuses almost everything. She's not going to eat the carnitas tomorrow, so there may be some Two Kinds of Pork left. Yes, how things appear is sometimes more important than you think, and one cannot always control appearance. I am still learning to which extent all this here is not WYSIWYG. Drmies (talk) 02:12, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Industrial/organizational psychology
I need the help of a veteran editor like yourself on the industrial/organizational psychology talk page. Iss246 (talk) 02:41, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm. I don't know what the question or dispute is--I do know that I rarely see such a full talk page. Is every single edit so controversial that it requires extensive discussion? A talk page like that gives me a headache. Drmies (talk) 04:20, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Iss246 left this note for me as well. I don't have time to deal with this today.  This volume and style of communication is pretty typical for Mrm7171, and it usually takes a couple of hours to figure out what's going on.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:33, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi Drmies. I have made a lot of edits to this article recently. It still needs a lot of work. 90% of these individual edits have not needed discussion and were not controversial. Importantly all discussion on talk has been civil to date, as you can objectively see from the edit history. These are also important topics relating to a specialized area of the psychology profession, i.e. organizational psychology, rather than an article on something abstract or relatively meaningless. I believe we are close to achieving consensus on a final point or two, as you can also see on the talk page. If not, we will need to use the appropriate dispute resolution process, rather than use up space on the talk page.Mrm7171 (talk) 07:09, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * If any kind of mediation is needed, it should come from the experts--either at WikiProject Medicine or at Third opinion. I can't do much more than profess my ignorance. Drmies (talk) 18:32, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * There are already three editors at the page, so it doesn't qualify for WP:3O. I'm personally not willing to ask even more editors to spend several hours a week, for months on end, trying to facilitate these never-ending discussions.  But perhaps Cas and MastCell would be willing to very quickly glance over the situation and giving their opinions about what they'd do next to resolve this.  Talk:Industrial and organizational psychology and Mrm7171's talk page are sufficiently typical of what's gone on for months elsewhere that it shouldn't be necessary for them to look at all of the pages.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:41, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry,, I responded before I saw your earlier note. Yes, I agree. But here's the thing--let's not be too hasty pointing the finger just at Mrm in regard to the use of pixels, since their opponent also has a tendency to be somewhat wordy. Anyway, maybe Casliber or MastCell have something better to offer than my nothing. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 18:44, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi Drmies. Apologies for again posting here on your talk page, but I need to make a few points. I tried to be brief, neutral and diplomatic in my comments above, but after just reading whatamidoing and iss246's further comments, have decided I've remained silent for too long. Given that my objective edit history recently prove my point, I can't have whatamidoing's baseless comments sit here undisputed. If you look at my editing history over the past 4 days Talk:Industrial and organizational psychology and a number of other articles I have made significant contributions to over the past week, whatamidoing's flippant and derogatory comments above are completely unjustified and in my opinion, uncivil. I would appreciate an apology from her as a fellow editor, but don't expect one. Further I would appreciate iss246 not 'running' to busy administrator's like Drmies every time someone doesn't agree with his/her editing. I think Beeblebrox's excellent advice to both iss246 and myself a few weeks ago was 'spot on'. I at least, have taken note of Beeblebrox's 'wikipedia and real life wisdom.' Finally without taking up more space on your talk page here Drmies, thanks for your comments above. Conflicts in the past have without any doubt been 'two way'. I think if whatamidoing was to actually look at my edit history over the past week, she may consider that personal apology more seriously. Anyway I don't think any further editorial input will be required from already busy medical editors. We have been building consensus on these important articles.Mrm7171 (talk) 00:02, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


 * The i/o entry contains a section on occupational stress. In a nutshell, i/o psychology has a fine record of research on the connection of occupational stress to workplace problems such as counterproductive workplace behaviors (e.g., a worker sabotaging someone else's efforts), in other words, problems that are not directly health related. On the other hand, i/o psychology does not have much of a history in the area of occupational stress and health. One sentence I deleted gave the false impression that i/o psychology did important work on occupational stress and health; however, the sentence centered on an article, although published in an i/o journal, that principally concerned biomedical research already completed on occupational stress and health. My efforts have been in the direction of maintaining the section on occupational stress but not misleading the general, nonspecialist encyclopedia reader into thinking that i/o psychology made an important contribution to research on occupational stress and health (e.g., heart disease). I have made many efforts on the i/o psychology talk page to get that point through to another editor. Too often I have had to repeat myself again and again. I made a little bit progress, but sometimes there is backsliding. That is why I wanted your input and user:WhatamIdoing's input. Iss246 (talk) 20:18, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * No apology necessary, esp. since I am not sure what precisely the complaint is: I cannot, for the life of me, see the forest for the trees. I was teaching summary writing today in a lit class, and memo writing in a business class, and I think next time I will show the students that talk page as an example of how not to do it: only those already invested in the topic will care enough to overcome that hindrance of walls of text. I'm sorry, but I have to call it as I see it, and I apologize--I'm sure you're both of eminent good faith, and Mrm, I thank you for the less-personal tone of your comments, but I just can't read those pages, including y'all's own talk pages. Drmies (talk) 00:12, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Mammals and...
Keeping a promise to my mentor this week by not making material changes to gun-control articles. In the meantime, I'm reading - and sometimes commenting - on interesting talk pages. One link lead to another and here I am.

Mammals > Cocker Spaniels > English Cocker Spaniels > Gun dogs. Yes. Gun dogs. I grew up around hunters. I used to show dogs (Basenji). I have heard of sporting dogs, hunting dogs, bird dogs, even smell hounds. I'm wondering if the editors of that page have said or will say anything about the Second. Lightbreather (talk) 04:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Ha, I saw the same thing, actually, since dog editor Hafspajen pointed me to some weird going-ons on the Cocker Spaniel pages. Did you hear the wolf hunting story on NPR? Drmies (talk) 04:15, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * No. I missed that. I listen to NPR in the car, and I've been spending most of my time in the house since I got sick. I'll look it up on the interwebs. Lightbreather (talk) 04:32, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I only watch Boston Terrier since we own a lovable one, and German Shepherd since a dear friend of 42 years had one who died about six months ago and so I improved that page a bit to make her feel better. I hope its not a COI to improve the encyclopedia to comfort a grieving pet owner. Because if so, I am screwed.  Cullen <sup style="color:purple;">328  Let's discuss it  04:41, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Terriers. God love 'em. My last dog was a terrier mix. What a piece of work he was, poor messed-up little man. He was a rescue dog. At the time, I was reading about mix breeds. One book said of the terrier: Heart of a lion, unusually large teeth. That was my Eddie. He left us last summer, all terrier to the end.
 * Shepherds are great, but too big for me. Now we're babysitting my son's ancient, rescued Chihuahua, because they have a new baby. Between Ed and Bella, it's been like a doggie old folks' home here for a couple years. Lightbreather (talk) 05:01, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The most recent I found (Jan. 10) was about Big Carnivores; the most relevant to wolf hunting was from Sept. 25. Both look interesting, so I shall listen now - accompanied by a large glass of chocolate milk. Mmmm.
 * Dieser Link auch scheint sehr interessant. (My German is from high school, so I had to use an e-translator.) Lightbreather (talk) 19:46, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Hey, where'd I see a question about milk-delivery sources? My grandpa was a dairy farmer in Illinois, and I spent my prepubescent years in Wisconsin. I own milk bottles. I drank milk from bottles in school. And I remember the milkman. (But no, he ain't my daddy.) Lightbreather (talk) 19:51, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "Melkboerenhondehaar" should be in my archive somewhere--as usual, though, I refer all milk packaging remarks to . The wolves story came out of the proposal to take it off the Endangered Species-list in the lower 48 or something like that. Montana was front and center in it. My milk comes in cartons, unfortunately. I remember the old Dutch milk bottle: it was lovely and rounded, and the vanillevla that came in those bottles was much better than the stuff in a carton. Drmies (talk) 00:07, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Zimmerman is back...UGH!...again
Please see here, here, here, and here. The account being used is User:HZ100, an obvious sock of User:Hollisz, which is a sock of parent account User:Zimmermanh1997. It might be time for a rangeblock. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> Neutralhomer •  Talk  • 18:12, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I have notified User:Arjayay‎ about Zimmerman. I have also tagged the current account (HZ100) with a sockpuppet template.


 * I believe a rangeblock and an SPI are needed. This user doesn't appear to "get it" and doesn't appear to be deterred by the blocks in place. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 18:23, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I blocked the account. There is an SPI for Zimmerman to which you can add this and other accounts, and possibly ask for CU. Drmies (talk) 18:40, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Sourcing - am I a complete numpty?
What's the deal in academia nowadays? Am I being a complete numpty at Reliable_sources/Noticeboard? Should I be making a distinction between what is acceptable academically and what goes on at WP? - Sitush (talk) 18:19, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Oh, and did that interlibrary request ever work out? It related to William Beach Thomas. No worries if not - I won;t be using snippet view! - Sitush (talk) 18:23, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Refresh my memory, Sitush--I'm old. Drmies (talk) 18:40, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Not as old as me, although my looks may deceive ;) Musty, John (March 1985). "H. J. Massingham and W. Beach Thomas". Antiquarian Book Monthly Review 12 (3 (Issue 131)): 94–102. - Sitush (talk) 21:05, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Done, Sitush. I looked at the RSN note and broadly agree with you, but I'll look again and comment if need be. Drmies (talk) 21:10, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks re: the journal. Regarding RSN, my query here was more along the lines of what standards should we aspire to, rather than suggesting you might comment in the thread. It seems that you're more or less akin to me. It is a bit much to expect it to actually happen given the infinite variety of people involved with the project but I do think that we should at least be aiming for an academic rigour and it disappoints me when experienced contributors think otherwise. - Sitush (talk) 21:42, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Dude, most of our articles are on manga, monster trucks, YouTube personalities, and K-pop spinoffs. What kind of rigor are you expecting? A Google snippet as a reference is more than what most of those articles get. Drmies (talk) 00:05, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

?

 * Q: How can you tell that an elephant has been in your refrigerator/ice box?
 * A: By the footprints in the butter/cheesecake/cream cheese. Hafspajen (talk) 18:25, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * How do you get a Dutch olifant in your car? You put the olie in the engine, and the fant on the backseat. Drmies (talk) 18:45, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Hafspajen (talk) 18:50, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I doubt that it would fit. Nice, though! Listen, Twike needs some serious help--half of it is a promo piece. Strap yourself in and let's go. Drmies (talk) 02:23, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, now, you Twike't it yourself. Hafspajen (talk) 13:01, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Category:Giantesses in fiction and other categories needed for gender bias
Thank you for your help on ANI; I created this category as giant does not have a gender neutral version of the world that comes to mind. I also think it's important to notes giantesses are actually more common than giants in fiction. DC and Marvel comic witches have their own category yet wizards do not. I will propose this at the categories for discussion. CensoredScribe (talk) 23:04, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I apologize for removing this. I was doing a mass revert because this category he is describing to you is completely useless and your user talk was one of the links I hit.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 23:34, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * No harm, no foul. CensoredScribe, giantess is a perfectly acceptable word in my book. That those categories also need gendering is not clear to me. As for DC and Marvel, I think Wikipedia would look a lot better if those topics weren't covered like they're the most important thing in the world. But that's just me and my Enlightenment idea of what an encyclopedia is: no [xxx--laundry list deleted]. Drmies (talk) 00:03, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I think Lilith as Karina is mentioned in her article as being a giantess yet Ryulong is reverting this. CensoredScribe (talk) 01:19, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Drmies can you tell him to stop? He seems he actually listens to you.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 01:25, 6 February 2014 (UTC) I would accept being banned if it stopped Ryulong from editing talk pages and reverting discussions over gender biased category names. I think categories for creation because it needs to be it's own page; categories for discussion still says nothing about creation. CensoredScribe (talk) 01:34, 6 February 2014 (UTC) Ryuong has been shutting down my attempts to even discuss whether giant should be split into giantesses and giants, articles is one thing, talk pages is another. I'm glad my revision was so quickly noticed; you're right; trying to prove giantesses are more common than giants isn't worth losing the ability to mention some obscure environment saving bacteria, which is non fiction, references and useful to non otaku. CensoredScribe (talk) 01:55, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I think first that you should let go of all those sticks at ANI. I don't know what this is about--I have no idea who or what Lilith and Karina are., please take this advice: do not add people, characters, or anything to any category unless you are absolutely sure, based on reliable sources, that they fit in that category. "Mentioned in her article" is just not good enough: you need to be able to prove it. Moreover, it needs to be a defining characteristic in some way. I would imagine that being a giant probably is pretty damn defining, but Ryulong wouldn't revert if he didn't have a reason. Ryulong is kind of like a bulldog: he bites and doesn't let go, and barks all over the frigging place, and you just want to kick him out of your yard, but he's usually not that wrong. And you're still not out of hot water, though Ryulong's 500k of contributions will most likely prevent any action from being taken (it's a well-known ANI boomerang, Ryulong): disruptive activity in categories is disruptive, and is as such blockable. Admins don't need an ANI thread on a topic ban to warn and/or block you for disruption. So PLEASE use common sense and exercise good/better judgment. One more please, to both of you: go discuss things elsewhere, like on an article or category talk page. Drmies (talk) 01:36, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Scribe, don't be stupid: nothing like that is worth being banned over, and at any rate we don't accept self-immolation by one editor on the condition of behavior modification in another. Drmies (talk) 01:37, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Scribe removed your comment, so I've reverted per WP:TPO. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:49, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Karina as Lilith and giant is going nowhere; I left a note on Talk:Lilith. Ryulong, I'm surprised you didn't use my argument: you should have. Both of you need to stop edit warring, probably, and both of you should be aware that edit warring does not require the bright line of WP:3R to be broken. (Consider this a non-templated notification.) I don't understand what this CfD thing is supposed to be; CS, I'd drop that proposal if I were you, but that's just me. If I were you, I'd do a bit more watching than editing, and I'd be watching especially the work that does, cause he knows categories. And then you may want to check the ANI archives (and Google) for the shit storm unleashed by JohnPackLambert a while ago. And this mention of shit storm reminds me that I meant to leave a note for  and : I watched Ice Twisters the other day, and that's all I have to say about that. Drmies (talk) 02:09, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "Charlie, Joanne and Damon rush to the university to use its satellite to punch a hole in the ozone layer to extinguish the storms." That is all. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:36, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * All I know is that CensoredScribe keeps adding the cfd template onto Category:Giants in fiction and Category:Fictional giants but he doesn't realize that there should be something on WP:CFD about them. I assume that's what he's complaining about.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 03:58, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * CensoredScribe, this is probably correct. Slow down. Research your stuff and pick your battles carefully, then fight them in the right place. Drmies (talk) 04:18, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * CensoredScribe is doing the right thing by nominating those categories at CFD for discussion; they can no longer create new cats directly, so CFD is a reasonable place to propose a split. It looks like it won't be done, but at least then the community has ruled on the issue. Ryulong, I think it was not fair to revert those templates to the giants category; instead you should have asked CS to start the discussion at CFD. CensoredScribe, if you want to help with categories, there is a massive backlog of pages that simply aren't categorized where they should be - many categories are in need of diffusion, and many gendered categories are in need of de-ghettoization. Shoot me a note on my talk page if you want pointers here - ultimately I feel wikipedia has more than enough categories in general, and what we're lacking is categorization of pages into places where they belong, not new and finer slices of categories. Especially fiction, which I generally stay away from because it's such a wide universe that any categorization is bound to run into problems, why not look at the real world, and find ways to more precisely categorize real-world objects into the categories we already have?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:40, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Obi, thanks for weighing in. I appreciate your note and your tone. Drmies (talk) 18:52, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * You and K can sure pick some good movies, Drmies. Did you see my post about my lovely portmanteau: idio-crazy? I wonder if will like it?  Lady  of  Shalott  18:44, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, but I prefer it without the hyphen, even though it helps give emphasis. When he said "I apologize to anyone who has taken offense at that", I assume he was apologizing to Hitler supporters for comparing Obama to him. He is convincing in one way: it's hard to believe that he is the result of millions of years of evolution. It's scary to think that he holds a national legislative office, and that he serves on the House's science committee. M AN d ARAX  •  XAЯA b ИA M  02:24, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * LordessofShalott, was that post off-Wiki? I couldn't find it. In perusing your recent edits, I did, however, find an article with something interesting: in an attempt to downplay the degree of homosexual behavior in animals, a male giraffe simply sniffing a giraffess was classified as sex, while anal intercourse between two males was merely a greeting or show of dominance. M AN d ARAX  •  XAЯA b ИA M  22:35, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I did, but I have yet to look up Paul Broun. You know I'm not the greatest appreciator of portmanteaus, but OK, now that I looked over his article, yeah. Careful, BLP violation! Holy moly--that we can have people, elected officials, presumably with a college degree, say that kind of xxxx nonsense. I'm glad you find the humor in it. Drmies (talk) 18:52, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I saw the blu ray of Mega Shark vs. Mecha Shark at Walmart yesterday. Naturally I bought it for Mrs. Kelapstick for Valentines Day. --kelapstick(bainuu) 19:19, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

"Colossusesses" use is useless. Let us use less. Use "Colossus". <span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#01110f;font-size:66%;">__ E L A Q U E A T E  22:08, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * We should probably create a category for Superheroines to match :)--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:24, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Since this is basically an old Daffy Duck quote, he was probably thinking of the one based out of Rhodes rather than the one from Ust-Ordynski, but yours works as an example too.<span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#01110f;font-size:66%;">__ E L A Q U E A T E  22:40, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Can we change "Mothers" to "Fatheresses", and change "Fathers" to "He-Mothers"? --Orlady (talk) 22:52, 6 February 2014 (UTC)GustaveDore She was astonished to see how her grandmother looked.jpg
 * Love this idea, Orlad or Orlady! It is simply brilliant stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hafspajen (talk) 05:29, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

ani
Can you close the thread I started on ANI? I think its handled now and doesn't need admin action anymore. Gaijin42 (talk) 03:14, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Sure thing. But Gaijin, talk (more) first please: you're also under scrutiny at the ArbCom case, and it is not unlikely that someone can think of ANI threads as a subtle kind of, well, you know, pressure. Lightbreather seems to have taken it in stride, but still. I have no idea how that ArbCom case is going, or how it's going to be going, but behavior is part of it, of course. Carry on, folks. Drmies (talk) 03:47, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I admit I escalated too quickly. I saw 3 of them on my watchlist that had obvious errors, and went to talk to her about it. When I saw her contribs and saw like 20 more it made me feel like I had to make sure it stopped quickly. The ANI was probably a mistake though. Gaijin42 (talk) 03:51, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * No problem, Gaijin. I hope Lightbreather feels the same way. Drmies (talk) 04:13, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Gaijin42: My husband has gone to sleep, but I can't. So here I am at midnight writing a response to post on Drmies' talk page because it feels semi-safe to me and I want to get a few things off my chest.

First, though I won't hold my breath, I'd like an apology for the part you played last fall in the stoning I endured on the assault weapons ban talk page re: the word "cosmetic." My sins were these: 1. Having the audacity to suggest that word did not (does not, at least not unqualified) belong in one section of that article. 2. Having the nerve to try and defend such a notion. 3. Having zip, nada, nyet knowledge of Wikipedia policy.

Second, I'd like an end to the comments that sort of support me, but come across more like I'm a bloody threat to The Project and if I don't *slow down* it'll all come crashing down - and soon after civilized society as we know it, too.

Third, the hand-wringing it's-all-out-of-my-hands now comments. It seems to me there are other pro-gun editors who respect you and follow your lead. I think you could lead by example in collaborating with me and editors like me who are simply trying achieve or improve balance in some of the gun-control related articles.

Gun control! Gun control, right? If I went and tried to change the name of the Gun control article right now to Gun violence prevention, I'd have a half-dozen pro-gun editors looking to put my head on a platter, just like in the pictures on Drmies' user page. And a dozen or more standing by to swoop in if things got out of hand. The things is, I could probably make a good argument for it, because the term has become well-used in many sources. But don't worry! Although I think GVP does better express the mission, so to speak, I'm also a trained journalist, and I'd much rather use two words than three.

So, four: How about you and I go over to the "Right to keep and bear arms" article and switch its name/redirect relationship with "Gun rights"? Gun rights is used with much more frequency among sources than "right to keep and bear arms." I know the pro-gun guys prefer the term, but this isn't about them/you, is it? It's about what a preponderance of reliable - and in this case, because it's a controversial subject - verifiable, and high-quality sources use. Also, check out WP:AT policy under Deciding on an article title.

Finally, thank my mentor, StarryGrandma, that I'm the WP editor I am today (and brought that ANI to a swift death). Six months ago, I was "this close" to falling into the trap so many seem to have fallen into here, and she gave me a hand up. If anything good came out of all those weeks of grief, it's that I found that good, good woman who showed me, and keeps showing me, that we're all meant to stay professional here. This post will probably disappoint her, but you really crossed the line today. My cheeks are chapped from the turning. Good night, and may tomorrow be a better day for all of us. --Lightbreather (talk) 07:24, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Disruptive editing?
Hi Drmies. I've got the feeling that this is (further) crossing the line from "discussion" to "disruptive editing", given WP:DISRUPTSIGNS "Does not engage in consensus building" and WP:NOTGETTINGIT. It just drags on and on, since last summer, despite extensive replies and accommodations by me, and responses from several other editors. His last response to these additions, which he requested: "Why does this article now contain so much of repetition content? The same stuff is present in the lead as well as the section "Roots of Hinduism."" Also, this remark "It would be better for us to discuss the reliability of these Dravidian historians and writers" (emphasis mine) feels tendentious. What do you think? Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   06:41, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Joshua, this is one area where I simply cannot say what I think, because, for instance, I don't know what the denotations and connotations are of "Dravidian". You put it in bold, so I think you mean it's POVish or something like that--you see, it's that lack of knowledge on my part that makes me a poor candidate to check this out. I'll ping a couple of people who know the subcontinent much better--what's up, , , ? Drmies (talk) 16:57, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Meanwhile, I'm learning further; see the picture.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   17:26, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll try to take a look at it. I'm likely to be the only one of the pinged who does - the others are all inactive afaik. - Sitush (talk) 18:07, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * BTW, the Dravidian issue is almost certainly going to be the old chestnut of Brahmins vs the rest of India. There's no doubt that historic Brahmins have a lot to answer for but, as so often, people ascribe to present-day populations the actions of people who lived many years ago. These are deep-seated divisions. - Sitush (talk) 18:12, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I've removed most of this "Aryan-Dravidian" stuff already, precisely because of these divisions. But it's clear that it's deep-seated.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   19:24, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Gun rights "renames"
GJ sure got me stirred up tonight. Working on categories today is when I found this little gem.

Check out the "G" and "R" pages listed under Category:Gun politics. Gun control? Yes. Gun rights? No. It's Right to keep and bear arms.

The article "Gun rights" was created October 2002. First it was a redirect to "Gun politics." Then (2007) it redirected to "Right to bear arms." Then (May 2008) it redirected to "Right to arms." One month later (June 2008), it redirected to "Right to keep and bear arms" - though that article's history indicates that it was created in January 2012. What the heck happened, I wonder? (Without wading through history at this point, I can't tell.)

This is not Wiki-kosher, is it? A preponderance of sources refer to this political concept as "gun rights." But as I hinted to GJ above, if I show up at that article by myself and boldly change it... Lightbreather (talk) 09:05, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The article's title refers to "arms" yet the article seems to be about handguns. Whence artillery, knives, swords, nunchakas, hand-grenades et al? Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 11:35, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Handguns and rifles mainly, which makes sense since that has been the main focus of the debate and laws for a few hundred years. But Knives in particular are making waves and should be discussed more. I made a post to this effect in the 2A article a bit back. Talk:Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution. We do however have Knife_legislation that could probably be integrated more.


 * The US is on a wave of scholarship, court cases, and law changes generally liberalizing knife laws. State level preemption in particular is running hot and heavy, arguably riding the coat-tails of Heller and McDonald. Switchblade laws are also becoming less popular, and major carve-outs have been made federally specifically exempting "Assisted Opening Knives" from being counted as switchblades.


 * Conversely in the UK/AU you need to be 18+ to buy curved butter knives and curved butter knives with no edge, and no points are explicitly included as "offensive weapons", and there are serious proposals for banning pointed chefs knives . ("Who needs a chef knife").


 * Both directions are probably valid examples of the slippery slope argument being not a fallacy. Past knives, Scalia has personally opined (ie not in a ruling) that "keep and bear" specifically means something you can carry, so artillery and tanks would be exempted from the right, but there is some historical precedent for cannons in particular to be included. Interestingly, it is perfectly legal to own both tanks and cannons in the US almost everywhere They are Title I NFA arms which require a background check and $200 tax, but cannon in particular are ironically easier to get than say a fully automatic AR-15, because there is no ban on their import or manufacture for civilian use.  Gaijin42 (talk) 16:00, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Good thing you can't carry a cannon into an elementary school so easily. Lightbreather, I would not be so bold as to change names. This is ArbCom matter also, and going slowly and building consensus is the way to go. Boldness is fine, methinks, but not in big matters, like article titles. I'm a big fan of RfCs, because of their formality, and I think that's probably the way to go here (though I admit I just came out of class and haven't even looked at this article or its history--and Marie de France makes for much better reading). Gaijin, I have two chef's knives, and I hope they last me a long time. Drmies (talk) 16:51, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It was a rhetorical question. I would have been astounded if GJ had actually agreed and said: your policy arguments are convincing; I WILL help. Lightbreather (talk) 17:24, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, it sounds like a good class. I miss school. I'm a Sor Juana fan. Also, Hildegard of Bingen, but I have read a little Marie. Lightbreather (talk) 17:36, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

"an abusive obsessive"
Of course, if someone used their talk page to refer to you (after spending a whole day insulting you) as "an abusive obsessive" you'd be totally cool with it. Odd, I thought you had a clue. Never mind, scratch you from my list. Thanks for your support in the past mind you. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:43, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I've heard worse about me, on and off wiki. I'm not cool with that (nor am I cool with Tenebrae's diatribes), but there's not a lot I can do about it. It's entirely possible that I don't have a clue, of course. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 20:28, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It's just terribly depressing how suddenly previous colleagues melt away when the going gets tough. So Tenebrae calls me all names under the sun and you suddenly say "What do you care about what Tenebrae says on their talk page".  The answer is because I care about what people say about me, particularly when they refer to me as "an abusive obsessive".  Especially when he is blocked for personal attacks.  I had hoped you'd get that, but clearly not.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:35, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not melting at all, but I just don't see the point. Others do; for all I know Tenebrae got their block lengthened by now. I am not a great believer in civility blocks, and you're not exactly Dr. Civility yourself (nor am I, I am well aware of that). Yeah, they heaped a lot of unwarranted abuse on you, and in saying that I'm going further than those who think you baited them and deserve a block yourself. But you've repeated their abuse terms five times in that ANI thread after first citing them and personally I think you should try and let it go. Besides, we've given people at least some leeway in "venting" on their own talk pages while being blocked, or even after being blocked; I don't know where you stand on that, but it seems to me that this is accepted by the community, if grudgingly. Of course I care about what people say about me, but if it's someone who's already blocked, and that block is endorsed (at least not overturned), then it's clear to me that such abusive words are simply hollow and come from a certified abusive-language user. I like the gift as I like the giver. So I'm sorry that Tenebrae feels compelled to continue their tirade, and I'm sorry that this hurt your feelings--that's understandable, but as an admin I think that more and heavier blocking is unwarranted. A judgment call with which you're free to disagree--but saying that I don't have a clue is a bit much. I know what it's like to be insulted, and I know what it's like to be blocked, and I know that as an admin I want to be really careful about civility blocks. Why don't you let them stew in their own juices until the block runs out? If they persist, there are courses of action to take which in the long run are probably much more productive than calling for a longer block. Drmies (talk) 20:47, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Funny thing is, all this chatter about "admin" is bollocks. I never ever entered this discussion as an admin, just as an editor.  There seems to be an odd anal blockage when it comes to the fact that an admin may have an editorial argument to make.  There was never any threat of admin usage, never any misuse of admin privileges, nor (as far as I can tell this time round) any accusation of such.  If you'd rather I relived myself of the tools, fine.  If that makes it easier for me to have such discussions and more likely for me to have the series of personal insults taken more seriously, I'll do that straight away.  Besides that, I'm still looking for the evidence that would suggest I need to be blocked, this so-called "baiting".  You seem to acknowledge this, please demonstrate how anything I've "baited" is equivalent to being called a "freak" or a "wart" or a "Crazy".  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:25, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Bollocks? I didn't say anything about you as an admin, and when I said "unwarranted abuse", wasn't it clear that I didn't think you were baiting? I said at ANI you should have disengaged earlier, but that doesn't mean I accused you of baiting. Drmies (talk) 21:31, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Enough said already. I'm getting a clear picture of the way AN/I works, if you're not in the party, you're not in the party.  Fine.  Thanks for your advice, sorry to see that personal attacks are so low value these days.  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:39, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I just checked; Tenebrae has not heaped more insult on that page. If they had I would have removed their talk page access. It seems as if the cautionary words by two other admins have had an effect. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 20:49, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Nope, it's just when he's not active. Suggest you wait a day or so before finalising that judgement, maybe in around four hours or so.  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:17, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Sealed trains (carrying URLs)
I saw this a few hours ago, and found it vaguely interesting/amusing. I also thought that, given his (very) slight similarity to the review's author as regards the topic, someone you know might find it interesting and/or amusing too. I decided not to mention it on that person's talkpage, since doing so might be inflammatory and such. So I decided to put it in a sealed train (by posting it here) to be conveyed to the right place if appropriate.

The other question is why sealed train is a redlink. Despite what Google thinks, I don't agree that only that one Russian guy travelled on such a train. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:55, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 *  The Swedes to him are self-righteous, tight-arsed miserabilists only distantly connected to the human race. well, maybe they are... but sounds a bit hars, no? Hafspajen (talk) 22:32, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Hafspajen, I've never met a Swede (outside of the Sjöwall and Wahlöö books) that I didn't like. Demiurge, that subject's article is t e r r i b l e. Anything is better than nothing--you can always use it to simply verify that a book was written and reviewed, and thus worthwhile mentioning. I'd remove the guy's bibliography right off the bat... Drmies (talk) 23:07, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Demiurge, not all travelers are equal. Drmies (talk) 23:18, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * There is more:    The Danes are aggressively jingoistic, waving their red-and-white dannebrog at the slightest provocation. Norwegians are the most insular and xenophobic of all the Scandinavians, and it is true that since they came into a bit of money in the 1970s the Norwegians have become increasingly Scrooge-like, hoarding their gold, fearful of outsiders. (About the Icelanders) We need not detain ourselves here too long.  Only 320,000 – it would appear rather greedy and irresponsible – people cling to this breathtaking, yet borderline uninhabitable rock in the North Atlantic. Further attention will only encourage them.The Finns are epic Friday-night bingers and alcohol is now the leading cause of death for Finnish men. Oh, well, wonder what he would say about the Dutch... art loving drug addicts? Hafspajen (talk) 23:39, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Drmies, you lost me. "that subject's article" seems to be a determined redlink, as it deserves. I don't see what you're recommending? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:54, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I mean Michael Booth's article, Demiurge. My other comment, about inequality among travelers, was in relation to my redirect for "sealed train" to Lenin. Sorry if I was obtuse. Drmies (talk) 16:36, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I get it now. (Maybe we are two peoples separated only by common languages that originally looked lots like Beowulf, and the steadily growing North Sea.) Incidentally, does your talkpage have a lot more angry arguments on it than it used to, or am I just scrolling up/down too much? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:50, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Page protection
Doc, I've protected your talk page. You seem to have drawn the wrath of an IP hopping troll. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:12, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * @User:Crisco 1492: I think a RevDel'ing of those vandalism/PA edits by the IP are in order. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> Neutralhomer •  Talk  • 08:03, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * RevDel coming right up. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:06, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank ya, kindly. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> Neutralhomer •  Talk  • 08:07, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * @User:Crisco 1492: While you're at it, can you look at rev-deling this IPs contributions. I suspect its the same troll. GabrielF (talk) 08:07, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Done the worst. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:15, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Looks like that Hong Kong guy knew how to play by the rules, after every three edits he changed the computer to avoid the computer getting blocked. (warn first three times...) Not that it helped. Hafspajen (talk) 16:06, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Wow. Thanks for looking out for me. Well, the trolls will troll. Wonder if they know who helped write the section Antisemitism and what all those difficult sentences, like in the note on James Carroll (author), mean. Drmies (talk) 16:33, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

COI
I see a COI coming up here:
 * "The indian government is setting up a network for indian scholars,indian historians and archaeologist to govern indian public affairs on Indian history, this means that a indian editor will be used by the government to give Indian scholars,historians,archaeologist the majority references while locking the yoga page and Hinduism page"

Or am I just going nuts? Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   09:45, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Jonathan the Husky, the mascot for the University of Connecticut standing next to an inflatable representation of himself.Hafspajen (talk) 22:57, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


 * You see?!? They're everywhere!  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   05:03, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Who? the indianscholars? Or the woolfs? Hafspajen (talk) 13:35, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Regrading linking an ANI discussion
Shouldn't they be done? Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 17:15, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "It". No, it should not be done for reasons I gave at Talk:Adi Shankara. You are suggesting to other editors that Sitush was brought up on charges and that, therefore, their comments should be taken with a grain of salt. What would be more justified is if you said, "I went before an administrators board and claimed that Sitush was editing disruptively but my claim was laughed out of court". Drmies (talk) 17:21, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * You mean it is ok to link that ANI upon quoting "I went before an administrators board and claimed that Sitush was editing disruptively but my claim was laughed out of court" ? I don't mind... if you want I can edit my recent comment. Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 17:26, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * No, leave it be. Drmies (talk) 17:27, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

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To be continued.
You have blocked this users acounts, who were abusing multiple accounts: (Kipper90) and left one to edit, asking noy to go on edit warring, but it still does. Hafspajen (talk) 19:22, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I think should be made admin, and then she can deal with it. Say,  is unrelated, right? Drmies (talk) 19:31, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't know. I really don't. If unrelated, both have same mania. Hafspajen (talk) 19:45, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for improving wikipedia. Hafspajen (talk) 21:19, 8 February 2014 (UTC)