User talk:Grayfell/Archive 8

Donald Gary Young
Would appreciate your review and edit as needed of today's history. Thanks. --Zefr (talk) 21:51, 20 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Yup, I've posted a comment on it, thanks. Grayfell (talk) 22:24, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Sockpuppet investigation
Notifying you because the filer didn't. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:34, 21 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks for notifying me. While by itself, this is more amusing than anything else, I suspect it might be dredged up by other editors with an ax to grind, so I'm requesting that it be deleted. Grayfell (talk) 23:09, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Supply Side Economics
You undid my edits to supply economics. After searching google scholar where papers are published that makes an argument, supply economics did have an impact on GDP and unemployment. However, all papers that were published, are by economists that favor support supply side economics. They are economists no different then Paul Krugman. My question, should I waste my time going through google scholar to reference the papers, or will it seem to be a conflict of interest? Which brings me to my other question, Keynesian economists are stated all time defending their position, so why can't supply side economists do the same? Nobody is arguing the revenue stream problem that Paul and other Kenesian points out but there is evidence made by supply side economists that the Regan and JFK tax cuts did grow the GDP and cut unemployment.(User talk:Madsalty) 08:22, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Hello. I'm not really sure I understand what you are asking. Supply-side economics and the Laffer curve are controversial to put it mildly, but there are some reputable economists who support them. Supply-side economists have built walled-garden for themselves, so it's better to summarize based on independent sources, but that's kind of subjective. Citing papers by sympathetic economists isn't a conflict of interest. Just advocating something isn't a conflict. If you wrote the paper and were adding it to the article, or the author of the paper was paying you to add it to Wikipedia, that would be a conflict of interest. The important thing to keep in mind is due weight. Opinions should be presented in accordance with their prominence in reliable sources. It's also much better if the sources summarizing these positions are WP:SECONDARY. If not that, they should at least be from recognized experts like Krugman, in which case it should be attributed to that expert.
 * I reverted your edit because linking hard GDP numbers to supply-side economics must be done by sources. Saying that it was "put to the test" is somewhat ambiguous, and would need to be more clearly explained, economists, even those who are sympathetic to supply-side, agree there were other factors than just taxes, so attributing successes or failures needs to be explicitly done by sources, and likely with attribution. Peter Ferrara's position would have to be presented as his opinion with clear attribution, and the lead is not the place to do that, at least not without discussion on the talk page first. Additionally, Forbes give almost no editorial oversight to articles published by "contributors", making it a poor choice for something that's placed as being of prime importance to the topic. (Forbes has become a borderline blog-hosting service, at this point). If Ferrara's point is lead-worthy, it should be found somewhere more reliable. If it can't be found, it doesn't belong.
 * I would suggest starting a proposal at Talk:Supply-side economics so that more editors can chime in. Grayfell (talk) 09:25, 25 October 2016 (UTC)


 * You answered my questions perfectly. I have a better understanding on what's required. Thanks for the reply and your time. I appreciate it. (User talk:Madsalty) 06:43, 25 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Madsalty, this is a question you should bring up on the article's talk page. In terms of substance, part of that edit is synthesis - the part about the continuous growth between 1984 and 1990 based on BEA stats (and I think you might be looking at nominal GDP anyway) and it's also original research. The other parts are not really about supply side economics - a fiscal stimulus, even if carried out via tax cuts is a demand side policy.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:11, 26 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Supply-side economics emphasizes economic growth achieved by tax and fiscal policy that creates incentives to produce goods and services. In particular, supply-side economics has focused primarily on lowering marginal tax rates with the purpose of increasing the after-tax rate of return from work and investment, which result in increases in supply. <--- Supply-Side Economics by Arthur B. Laffer (GDP) in the U.S. was 3.4 percent per year, and 3.8 percent per year during the 1983-1989 Reagan expansion alone. <-- From the papers I cited. When you do the math it's about 4% annually. Reagan proposed a phased 30% tax cut for the first three years of his Presidency. The bulk of the cut would be concentrated at the upper income levels. The economic theory behind the wisdom of such a plan was called supply-side or trickle-down economics. <---Reaganomics: supply side economics in action by Bruce Bartlett.


 * If you guys want to leave the page as is, fine.. But if you read it, it's not even remotely balance, Should just be called criticism of Supply Side Economics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Madsalty (talk • contribs) 04:59, 26 October 2016 (UTC)


 * If anywhere, this should be posted to the article's talk page instead. Grayfell (talk) 05:07, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Hi Greyfell
Got our message about the removal of the external link I've added to Wix.com Thanks for informing, you are saying they seemed to be inappropriate for an encyclopedia. The Wiki article says "many independent reviews named Wix as one of the best free website builders", but there was no confirmation of it. So I managed to add a link to reputable source with the review of website builders, that actually named Wix #1 for beginners. http://websitesetup.org/website-builders/ it should have made this information more reputable, haven't it? Anyway, not sure it is the right place to post this, as you can see I'm new here :)

Multimrnk (talk) 09:52, 31 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Hello. Thanks for starting a talk-page discussion. There are a couple of overlapping issues. Is Websitesetup.org reputable? Maybe, but I don't think it is by Wikipedia's standards. It might be a perfectly fine resource for some, but it looks like a one-man site without any editorial oversight or the "reputation for fact checking and accuracy" required by Wikipedia's guidelines. It's basically Robert Mening's blog, right? So who is Robert Mening? See WP:SPS for how blogs relate to Wikipedia's policies.
 * The part you added a source for was a very promotional claim which would've needed to be rewritten based on much, much better sources. The article had a lot of what are known as WP:WEASELs and WP:PEACOCKs, although I previously removed most of them. I guess I missed that one. I've removed that line and adjusted the paragraph to be less promotional. A source is definitely better than no source, but the problem ran a bit deeper than just the source. The page Manual of Style/Words to watch and WP:SOAP would be my recommended reading for that, if you're curious.
 * If you have any more questions, let me know, but I'm not going to be able to answer for the next few hours. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 10:13, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! Will read all of the above guides for the next references! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Multimrnk (talk • contribs) 10:19, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Edits to page on Graphology
Hi Grayfell, thanks for your advice on providing a summary/reason for editing and I have changed my preferences as you suggested. Have learned a lot in the last few days. Best regards, Geeveraune (talk) 10:00, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

A Different Drum - Revision History
I see that we're going to have an ongoing relationship here regarding the page for A Different Drum. You seem to be infatuated with correcting my edits. Are you stalking me? Opticon98 (talk) 22:56, 4 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Hello. I can see why that might be irritating or distressing, but stalking is not what's going on here. I use the Help:Watchlist feature to keep track of articles I'm interested in, which is a very common practice and is a feature that's available to all registered editors. The watchlist allows me to see when articles I'm interested in have been changed or updated. Since your earlier edits to that page introduced some unexplained issues, such as removing template:infobox record label and template:for with this edit, I have been checking that page when I see it on my watchlist to make sure the changes are okay. As far as I know that's the only article we've both edited, right? I sometimes glance at other editors' actions through their user contributions page (which every editor has), but only follow up if there is some specific sign that there's a problem, such as spam or vandalism, which is not the case here. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 23:54, 4 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I can assure you that I am anything but a vandal. I'm a really nice girl. You just don't know me yet. I've been on Wikipedia for many years but lost access to my previous account due to my ex-husband, and his malicious ways. I have more than 25 years invested in the Synthpop scene globally, and have personally met many of the bands on A Different Drum, Synthphony Records, Section 44 Records, KMA Records, Ninthwave Records, Metropolis Records, and many other of the labels. I've attended many concerts and festivals since the early 90's, and contributed to much of the content here through my experiences and knowledge. You'll be seeing me around. Cheers! Opticon98 (talk) 17:45, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

SMART HDD Standard Censored?
The early IBM HDs must have had some diagnostic information. Without an online manual one has to guess as to the parameters provided. Yet otherwise coverage of this improvement in the article is really lacking (separate from the SMART technology article).

In the modern era the S.M.A.R.T. HDD telemetry provides about 120 parameters out of 256, as for some reason the idiots that created the standard did not use UNSIGNED INT16 in the specifications. IBM's original HDDs must have provided at least 5 to 7 HD running parameters as a bare minimum.

Ergo, based on an average HD providing about 40 operational parameters ... this leads to a 7 times increase in provided data. Why anyone would want to censor this is beyond me, as HDDs are slowly verging towards the ash heap of history (due to the Flash Memory technology). Eyreland (talk)


 * What? I don't think calling this "censorship" is productive, and calling it that on my talk page is really not productive. See WP:FREESPEECH. Discuss this on Talk:Hard disk drive, and listen and respond to what other editors have to say. Do not remove anyone else's comments, like you did with this edit. Thank you. Grayfell (talk)

Best way to cover DC cannabis topic? Your input requested
Please see here: Talk:Initiative_71

Goonsquad LCpl Mulvaney (talk) 23:20, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Your approach to the Reader page
There are probably many people like me who do not use this platform very often nor, because of other responsibilities and interests, do we have time to use it often, and yet we try to contribute meaningfully, fairly and even boldly.

My very limited experience of your editing style, limited to one page, and reading through this Talk page, is that you seek to be fair, to encourage neutrality in how people are editing, and you are interested in building the community.

That said, some of the ways in which you are interacting and your choices of editing are not aligned with these intentions you have.

My own experience of editing The Reader page included that my contribution was continually challenged and changed by you. Rather than seeing my evident knowledge on the subject as an asset, you viewed it, from the outset, with suspicion, and you continually eliminated my work. You justified doing so with a flourish of Wiki-regulations and jargon.

At The Reader and my personal Talk pages, I've taken much more time than I probably should have to explain where I believe you were wrong in your editing. I imagine some people, after reading through these notes, may find your editing unquestionably wrong, anti-collaborative, and alienating.

With your superior knowledge of this platform comes a responsibility to use this knowledge to foster the collaboration of others, and thereby build the community and the value of information on this platform, rather than use it to push them away.

Clearly, I'm not the only one who feels this way. Elsewhere in this talk section, another editor has experienced something similar in which s/he said, "I do think that your editing is very heavy-handed and somewhat arbitrary- and not always in accordance with Wiki Policies...The downside is that this approach is likely to discourage other editors from making new contributions."

I think it would be more fair and a wiser move to see others' contributions who have considerable knowledge on a subject as a result of place, proximity and experience and who are clearly trying-- as I have-- to live up to the ideals, rules and values of Wikipedia, to allow them their say. If you don't do this, and you use your superior knowledge of this platform to get others to do what you want, you're essentially pushing them away from the platform, which I know you don't actually want to have happen.

Most recently, although I'm not sure what the notification means, you wrote something at my Talk page to the effect that my role as an editor may be taken away if I don't comply with certain rules and that you will soon enlist other editors to make sure I comply with other requests of yours.

All of this you are directing at someone who rarely uses this platform and tries to use it fairly to the best of their ability. Is that not being somewhat heavy-handed and needlessly intimidating?

Thank you for reading this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiBalandina (talk • contribs) 04:36, 18 November 2016 (UTC)


 * No, I did not use another account (that would be against the rules), and I did not ask the other editor to revert your changes, that was their own call.


 * The message I left on your talk page was a boilerplate warning about edit warring. I wanted you to understand Wikipedia's "bright line" about three reverts in 24 hours. I warned you about that so that you can keep contributing, because if you continued as you were without understanding that, you very likely would get blocked. If that's a threat, it's a threat the same way a speed-limit sign is a threat: it applies to everyone, and now it's on you to follow it. Not explaining that would be doing you a disservice, would it not?


 * I accept that people are going to complain about me on my talk page when they don't agree with what I've done, just like I accept that very few are going to notice when I do something they agree with. What, exactly, does any of that prove? By the way, the editor who left those comments you quote has made many, many edits since then, and has been very active in adding reliable sources to many different articles.


 * I understand that you want to contribute based on your expertise, but as I've been trying to explain, it's just not that simple. You are not the first person to be frustrated by this, but it's so fundamental to the project that it's not negotiable. Let me explain that another way, because it's very important. We do not ask you to prove who you are. There are rules about paid editing and sock-puppetry, but for the most part, Wikipedia tries very hard to preserve the privacy of individual editors. Outing another editor is forbidden, in fact. That protection of anonymity means we cannot take your word for it, because that would require us to know who you are. That is why we need, need, NEED reliable sources instead of personal familiarity. Does that address some of your confusion? If so, please tell me how I can explain this more clearly in the future, because it's a recurring problem.


 * So, for that and other reasons, your edits weren't going to work, and multiple other editors seem to agree with me. What, exactly should I have done differently? It was as you left it for months until another editor cleaned it up, again. You reverted without addressing the problems. Remember that you have no basis at all for making assumptions about our individual knowledge or personal history. What, exactly, should the other editor have done differently? Does her assessment not count? I tried to discuss this with you in multiple forums months ago, and all I got for my trouble is veiled insults and edit warring. Now a third editor has reverted. What, exactly, should they have done differently?


 * As I said above, I can live with being called heavy handed. So can you live with working with other editors, and can you agree to be civil about it (which is required by Wikipedia's policies)? Are you willing to work with the three editors who have reverted your changes? If not, you're going to have a hard time here regardless of my attitude or behavior. Grayfell (talk) 05:17, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Your editing choices and your interactions are more than "heavy-handed", they are pushy and reveal an overriding sense of your own rectitude and an incapacity to be influenced by others who disagree with your choices.

You have continually eliminated any possible positive statement made about The Reader Magazine, a sixteen year old publication in Southern California, which mostly as a result of your insistence, you have reduced to a single article written by a graduate student, who was subsequently sued for libel.

Most recently, you have argued that this article accusing the publication of plagiarism is so important that it be included in the second sentence of the entire entry on the publication, even though it is mentioned in the body of the entry. Your response is that it is proper to include it as it "summarizes" the publication-- according to who? You? You have eliminated positive, cited content to the point that the entry is so sparse that someone looking for information on The Reader Magazine-- because of you-- knows practically nothing about it, including information that is verified, cited and independent.

The positive statements about The Reader you argued to eliminate (and did eliminate) include cited statements made on record and in an article about The Reader Magazine by "Mr. Magazine" himself, Professor Samir Husni, a globally-recognized thought leader in the magazine publishing industry. Why would you would eliminate his critique of The Reader but not a graduate student's critique? Your rationale for eliminating his cited article and statements drifts into absurdity: you claim that Mr. Husni's article may be self-promotional, or that it appears online only even though the article you center upon, in the Columbia Journalism Review, is also only available online, and never appeared in print.

Please stop including that The Reader was accused of plagiarism more than once, and it should not be mentioned so close to the beginning of the description of the magazine. It colors the rest of the entry-- and let us not forget that this was an article written by student sued for libel, which is not immaterial. The rationale for making it somehow a "summary" is totally subjective, and it is unfair.

Second, please allow for "Mr. Magazine" or Samir Husni's statements about The Reader to be seen, because he is a distinguished, recognized authority in magazine publishing. To assume that his statements and article are not independent is to not assume good faith and is irrational given his position in the publishing industry as one of its leaders, and the credibility he has earned over decades.

Finally, The Reader Magazine is one of only 1,961 companies globally that has earned the designation of B-Certified (along with Seventh Generation, Etsy and others). Why have you, again taken this cited information away from the description? What I hope others see here is that your editing has been heavy-handed to the degree of unfairness. How? You have stripped down the description of The Reader to a negative caricature or cartoon. You've done this, even though information is available from independent and even non-profit publishers and globally recognized third-party institutions. So your style is actually materially hurtful to others-- all done in the name of your ballyhooed (and actually non-existent) neutrality, wrapped in your generous use of Wiki jargon, and ultimately unfair.

ThanksWikiBalandina (talk) 02:32, 22 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I have moved your comments to the appropriate section, per talk page guidelines.
 * Obviously we are both coming from very different places here, but I am certainly NOT removing any "possible" positive statement. I am trying not to judge content exclusively by how positive or negative it is, but instead based on encyclopedic significance as determined by the reliability of sources.
 * Wikipedia's guidelines say that leads should summarize the basic details (founding date and location, etc) and major points raised by the article, as determined by sources and consensus determined on the article's talk page. All of this should be sourced (either in the lead, or in the body). If there are no sources and the content is challenged, it's removed. That's just how this works.
 * So, with that in mind, is Husni the only reliable independent source you know of? You've made your position on his interview with Theodore very clear, but I still do not think that the flattering quote from the intro is appropriate. Content from the interview could be used for either non-controversial details (which it already is), or maybe for attributed comments from Husni or Theodore in response to other, reliably sourced content such as the plagiarism accusations. Husni's blog is a blog, even if he is an expert, and it would need to be weighed accordingly.
 * As another editor has mentioned on your talk page, if being a B-cert company is significant to the article, then it should be possible to find a reliable, independent sources commenting on it. If it's not, then I do not think it belongs in the article, no matter how rare or common it may be, or how notable other companies who have received it are.
 * Being sued for libel is only material to the extent which it is discussed by reliable sources, (which seems like it's inviting the Streisand effect, but that's a digression). If this mere graduate student journalist was convicted of libel, or the publications issued a retraction, then that would belong in the article, and we could discuss, on the article's talk page, how best to present that information. Has that happened? Do you know of any reliable sources at all which support that?
 * I sincerely do not mean this as any sort of threat, but having the article deleted is another option. If you do not like the plagiarism accusation being so prominent, and you cannot find any substantial, independent sources which discuss the paper in general to offset it, then you can propose that the article be deleted based on a lack of notability. I kind of doubt it would survive the discussion, but I'm not interested in trying to get it deleted just to prove a point. If you want more info on that process, let me know. Otherwise, there's not much more to be said without going around in more circles.  Grayfell (talk) 07:54, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Nomination of First World privilege for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article First World privilege is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/First World privilege until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Letsrestoresanity (talk • contribs) 05:16, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Article about Sheila Sri Prakash
I have no ties to this living person. I am a tenured Professor of Architecture and Sustainability at the NUS (National University of Singapore). It is my opinion that the article about Sheila Sri Prakash is adequately backed by the numerous inline citations, references and reputable institutions that she serves, not the least of which include the United Nations and the World Economic Forum. Furthermore, as a woman who entered this field in the 1970s from Asia, she is undeniably a trailblazer, social innovator and pioneer. Would you clarify your credentials/extent of expertise, to comment on the field of architecture and disclose any ties to the topic of this post, along with any conflict of interest with any others, as it appears that you are repeatedly trying to undermine the reputation of this living person? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.14.185.67 (talk) 00:36, 25 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I do not have a conflict of interest, and my qualifications are not relevant, because Wikipedia relies on verifiability, not original research. The place to discuss this further is Talk:Sheila Sri Prakash. Grayfell (talk) 00:44, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Julius Evola
Please bear with me. Trying to clean up this article. Need help removing bogus citations. Never done that before. Dlawbailey (talk) 09:37, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll take a close look, but it will have to wait until tomorrow. Good luck. Grayfell (talk) 09:51, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

The articles referenced about Steve Bannon do not in anyway substantiate the claim that Bannon was "influenced" by Evola. They merely refer to the fact that Bannon mentioned Evola in reference to Alexandr Dugin and Euroasianism. Referring to a philosopher is not the same as claiming to be influenced by them. The articles mentioned were but click-bait smear articles intended to smear Bannon for ideological reasons. Spenglarian (talk) 18:47, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
 * The NYTimes article says But some on the alt-right consider Mr. Bannon a door through which Evola’s ideas of a hierarchical society run by a spiritually superior caste can enter in a period of crisis. - perhaps it should be reworded to better reflect this, instead of removed entirely. Seraphim System  ( talk ) 19:18, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Andrew Orlowski photo
Seriously you need a better photo.

Especially when yours is stolen from fucking flickr and cropped.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/farber/153592927

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.155.210.91 (talk) 04:41, 29 November 2016


 * It was uploaded to flickr with a creative commons license. Calling that "stolen" is just silly. If you know of a better photo which has a compatible license, go for it. Grayfell (talk) 04:51, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Draft:Mi Pay
Thanks. Grayfell for sparing your valuable time on the article. However, every brand has different products and services and there are dedicated pages for them as well on Wikipedia. For eg. For Apple Pay and Android Pay. Hence, I created this for Mi-Pay. In future, I will pay heed to what you say, particularly, for products that are less noticeable. Gupta Dindayal (talk) 12:06, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Dear, I want to know, whether this article would be moved to the mainspace automatically after being reviewed or I need to do it manually. Please help!Gupta Dindayal (talk) 12:10, 29 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Hello. Do not move the article into mainspace. leave that to other editors. Notability is determined by sources. Having a notable parent company does not mean the product is notable (see WP:NOTINHERITED) The sources for Mi Pay are thin, so it would be better to clean up Xiaomi and add a brief mention of Mi Pay there. Adding a full article about this product is promotional, since it makes Mi Pay look more important than sources support. Wikipedia is not a platform for advertising. Articles like this need to be reviewed carefully for that reason. Grayfell (talk) 22:49, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Let's talk
Hello Grayfell,

I've seen you deleted some of my edits and I would like to know why. I added some paragraphs + external resource to hack up my data, don't you like them or just being picky? — Preceding unsigned comment added by M.Becks (talk • contribs) 13:06, 29 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Hello. Sorry, I should've left an explanation on your talk page. The links you were adding were to a set of commercial sites which don't appear to meet Wikipedia's guidelines for reliable sources. See Identifying reliable sources. If the information cannot be supported by reliable sources, it should not be included on the pages. Because you were adding these to many pages in a row, this is a form of spamming, which is prohibited. Adding links to the 'see also' section is even more of a problem, because it's promoting the site and implying it has authority or official status without providing context. For this reason I am reverting your changes again. I hope that answers your question. Grayfell (talk) 22:57, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your explanation. I think these sites are positioned as trustful resources on its industry/market, also their writers have strong presence in sex work field. — Preceding unsigned comment added by M.Becks (talk • contribs) 09:43, 1 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Do you know of any independent sources discussing these sites? Wikipedia's standard for sources is "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". This means that sources should have some verifiable presence among outside analysts. Any discussion of the sites' journalism or editorial policies or similar, or if not that, outside articles about the sites' business history might be useful.
 * Writers with a strong presence is a good start, but it's not enough. If the contributors work has previously been published by other, reliable sites, that would mean they could be quoted as expert opinions, but those are treated differently, and such sources are only used for statements of fact with caution. WP:SPS explains this in slightly more detail.
 * It looks like there was some discussion of this in the past, also: Articles for deletion/Escort Ireland. A concern raised there was that there are a lot of sites with very similar names, which is a source of confusion even among sympathetic, reliable sources. No idea what to do about that, but worth keeping in mind.
 * Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 09:57, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Please reference the policy
"Let someone else add this if it's so important". Could you please reference which Wikipedia rule this falls under? TariqMatters (talk) 19:29, 1 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Hello. I have responded with a template message on your talk page. Sorry it's boilerplate, but it covers the issue more comprehensively than I could alone. I'm sure you've also noticed the two banners across the top of Tariq Nasheed. As a first step it would be a good idea to try and address those issues, but only on the article's talk page (Talk:Tariq Nasheed), not directly. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 23:22, 1 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Looks like you're violating "Assume good faith." But, I notice from other messages on this talk page and your contribution history that it's a pattern with you.  Probably one of the reasons why WP has lost so many editors, from what I hear.  Keep it up! TariqMatters (talk) 16:28, 2 December 2016 (UTC)


 * There are histories behind all of the other posts on this talk page. Some of them are well-meaning but ticked off. Some of them are long-term trolls who've since been blocked. Some just want clarification of something, or to point out a mistake I've made. Some don't agree with me because they think I'm part of some ideology they hate. How does any of this reflect on you having a conflict of interest?
 * If you want to actually explain how I was not assuming good faith, I'm willing to listen. If not, well, I'm glad I don't work retail, otherwise I might have to tolerate snotty comments like that without responding. That would feel kind of dirty, y'know? Like a violation of my principles. Fortunately AGF doesn't mean I have to act like a doormat, and I'm not paid for this either way, so... Grayfell (talk) 23:15, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Trilateral Commission
Trying to game the system with this edit of yours after you reverted my edit in this manner doesn't put you in the greatest light as it just proves that you are just trying too hard to push your POV. If you have further problems with my latest revert of your reversion, do be more constructive in your attitude and take them to the talk page first. Flaggerton (talk) 07:58, 2 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The burden is on you, there, bub. See WP:BRD. If you think Alex Jones, a fringe radio host, is on the same level as Noam Chomsky, on of the most cited academic in history, there's not much more to be said. Grayfell (talk) 08:57, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Peter Marino projects to add
Hi Grayfell, I identified a few of Peter Marino's notable projects and put a revision in my sandbox []. How does this look? Thanks for your help! Emikey-34 (talk) 16:12, 5 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I don't have time to give it a more thorough review, but I do notice some problems. Some of the refs might be messed up. One of the links is to the NY Times, while the formatting says its for the Telegraph. This kind of thing makes it really hard to verify, and sources don't support the statements they are attached to. That's not going to work, obviously. It looks like the dates are still poorly supported, as well. The "Palace Maker" article says the first Barneys work was in 1984, while your edit says 1985, and the Surface article currently used for the statement vaguely asks if it was the late 80s without getting a clear response. I will have a closer look when I get a chance. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 22:59, 5 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks for noticing the citation issues. It's great to have an extra set of eyes.  When I cut and pasted the citations I forgot to change Telegraph to NY Times.  I just corrected it.  The text and rest of the citations are correct.  I also just changed the date formats so they'd all be consistent, and found a specific source that confirms 1985 for the Barney's project date.  Thanks again for your help. Emikey-34 (talk) 16:04, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Kash Shaikh page
Which parts in particular should be removed or improved? Thank you for your help. A.s.jones (talk) 17:57, 10 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I have posted information about the article on Talk:Kash Shaikh. The excessive use of buzzwords and heavily promotional language strongly suggests that you may have a conflict of interest. Worse, much of the content you added (such as, but not limited to, birthdays) was not supported by any source, suggesting that you have direct knowledge of Shaikh. If you are affiliated with Shaikh, you need to read about that here: Conflict of interest. If you are being compensated for editing the article you are required to disclose that. Review Paid-contribution disclosure, as this is a policy with legal considerations. This is not optional. Please respond confirming that you have read this. Thank you. Grayfell (talk) 23:23, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Hello and thank you for your note. I have no affiliation with Mr. Shaikh or his company besomebody. I downloaded the app a year ago and love the concept. I also have been following the movement during that time. I am not paid in anyway nor would I ever seek to be. I'm new to Wikipedia, but I'm very familiar with the rules and guidelines. I understand you're doing your part as a community leader, but I must say I am shocked by the unsubstantiated assumptions you've made. I was excited to contribute to the community and spent a significant amount of time researching everything prior to publishing. I used credible sources, including the actual organizations that gave awards ("ie Brandweek") and media (USA Today). I did not use any sites directly affiliated with Shaikh or his company. Moreover, I studied other biographies of living persons on Wikipedia to emulate the style and format of "proper articles" such as Gary Vaynerchuk, Kathryn Minshew, SaulPaul, Mark Zuckerberg, etc. I believe much of what was removed from my contribution was unnecessary, however I will look at the sources again and make the appropriate edits. Thank youA.s.jones (talk) 23:50, 13 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you for responding. I don't agree that my assumptions were unsubstantiated, since you included content such as his high school and birthdate which were not supported by sources. I think it's obvious why this indicates a conflict of interest. COI editing is a problem on Wikipedia, and spam damages the project and undermines efforts of impartial editors, so it's not something I take lightly.
 * Please note that two of the four articles you cite as examples have banners across the top mentioning the serious problems they have. Actually, I just added one to SaulPaul also, as it also has many problems. It's frustrating, but Wikipedia doesn't go by precedent, and the huge number of articles here means there is plenty of junk that slips through the cracks. Awards specifically are frequently abused on Wikipedia. The rule of thumb is that WP:SECONDARY sources should be used for non-notable awards, and such sources should clearly explain why the award is encyclopedically significant. The organization that gives an award is not independent of that award, so this is needed distinguish significant accomplishments from fancy acrylic paperweights. Grayfell (talk) 00:08, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Actually, his birthdate is available on his public Facebook profile page, I had seen other articles reference birthdates in this way. I know now not to use those as precedent. Also, in one of the references you removed from a newspaper it referenced Shaikh as a Klein High School grad, also publicly available on his profile page. I appreciate this feedback and understand your concerns. It's cool how passionate you are about protecting the integrity of Wikipedia. I want to do that as well. I will be making some additional changes and then I will let you know. I would appreciate you letting me know if the edits/updates I make are in line with Wikipedia's ethos. I won't use other articles anymore as references." A.s.jones (talk) 20:39, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Talkback
Jtrrs0 (talk) 15:19, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Chris Hayes journalist
Hi there, your comment about reverting my edit was "see talk," but I saw no discussion there, other than the one I posted tonight. Amywestervelt (talk) 05:35, 17 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Hello. It took me a couple of minutes to type a response. Check again, please. Grayfell (talk) 05:40, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Creditseva page
Hi Grey

I have been trying to create a wikipage with the name Creditseva since a week and i am facing issues in this process. I have been modifying and improvising the content quality everytime you have suggested changes. Inspite of doing this at a regular basis, i have been seeing that my content is a promotional content and it looks like an advertisement. I have referred all the guidelines mentioned by you after you have reviewed the Creditseva wikipage. I fail to understand the reason for the content to get approved by you without the tag of advertisement or promotional content

Could you please help me on this, as in what has to be exactly removed in the content provided by me. As you had mentioned recently, there are no peacock words in this content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mratnam176 (talk • contribs) 10:14, 20 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Hello. Three things:
 * You already posted this exact comment at talk:Creditseva twice, and I already responded there. What's the point of me posting a reply if you're not going to bother to read it? You do not have to answer that. Just go to talk:Creditseva and discuss the article.
 * You still haven't responded on your own talk page to the question about having a conflict of interest. Two editors have tried to explain this, so please read your own talk page User talk:Mratnam176 carefully.
 * As is explained at the top of my talk page, post new comments at the bottom of the page. Not near the bottom. Please see Help:Show preview and start using that to avoid these kinds of mistakes in the future.
 * There is no reason to continue this here. Again: respond to the questions on your own talk page, and then read my response on the Creditseva talk page. Thank you. Grayfell (talk) 10:25, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your prompt response Grey. Sorry for asking the same question at two different pages. I am not accustomed to the Wikipedia page, so it was difficult to understand where i was going wrong. Thank you for giving me direction and showing me the correct path in such a clear way.I am working on the guidelines mentioned by you, after i have completed making the changes, i will update you on this talk page. Please review so that i can post it finally on the wikipage in such a way that it is free from any errors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mratnam176 (talk • contribs) 10:40, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi Grey

I have made the necessary changes in the Creditseva Wikipage by improvising the content quality and removing all those words that made you feel its a promotional content, kindly review it and please remove the promotional content tag. Mratnam176 (talk) 09:16, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Yo Ho Ho


Doug Weller talk is wishing you Seasons Greetings! Whether you celebrate your hemisphere's Solstice or Christmas, Diwali, Hogmanay, Hanukkah, Lenaia, Festivus or even the Saturnalia, this is a special time of year for almost everyone!

Spread the holiday cheer by adding to your friends' talk pages.

Stefan A-T Page
Thank you Grey for looking in on the page I created - I have seen all your edits and agree with them - I took off the Advert warning as I thought you had done a superb job of returning it to it's former glory - if you disagree - please let me know what else needs doing and I'll get on it - still learning the correct form! Commanderjameson (talk) 11:39, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Cuckservative reversion
Hello, I noticed you have made a revision to the how tag that I added to the article on Cuckservative. I've added a section to the talk page highlighting some of the questions I have with the accusations of racism. Feel free to comment here Sawta (talk) 21:53, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Regarding Arsh Shah Dilbagi
Hi! I'm new to Wikipedia and have been editing low stakes pages. I do not understand how that content appears to be promotional. If so, please help fix the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SteveDorf (talk • contribs) 07:33, 30 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Hello. Please read talk:Arsh Shah Dilbagi. That you have only ever edited this one topic is a red flag that you have a conflict of interest. Please read carefully what I've posted on your talk page and respond there. Thank you. Grayfell (talk) 07:36, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Thank you very much, I appreciate it! Grayfell (talk) 00:03, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Red pill and blue pill reversion
Hello, I noticed you reverted the edit I made to Red pill and blue pill on the grounds that "Women's hypergamous nature" is a fringe opinion and should not be stated as a simple fact. I understand that the issue of hypergamy is very controversial and that the opinions of /r/theredpill are a minority. I apologize if my edit came off the wrong way but my intention was just to point out one of the primary issues/opinions that the subreddit discusses regardless of whether they are generally considered to be true or not.99.252.156.13 (talk) 20:57, 6 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Okay, fair enough. The source does mention the hypergamy thing, but it says it's "one or two layers deeper" than the basic overview it gives. I think the underlying point is probably clear enough from the preceding sentence, also. Last time I looked, this was the only reliable source I could find which discussed the subreddit in depth, and the article shouldn't give undue weight to this otherwise obscure topic. So how important is it to explain the subtleties of this one subreddit on a "other uses" list? The main concern I have is that we don't present this as an uncontroversial fact. Grayfell (talk) 21:08, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

White supremacy reversion
With regards to your reversion, the language "real or perceived" is literally more neutral than the innate assumption that all systems in which white people hold the majority of social or financial capitol are operating under deliberately manufactured white supremacy. Consider a country like Sweden which until recently has not even had the chance to practice white supremacy politically due to its overwhelming native Swede majority: as its immigrant population increases the state has been incredibly accommodating. The notion of white supremacy is not a system of government, it's an ideology with various implications depending on social climate and history. Therefore, implying that suggestions of its existence in all given systems are automatically true is the biased stance. Saying "real or perceived" prevents generalizations in the global context.

Nerdcatcher (talk) 13:18, 10 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia goes by reliable sources, specifically sources about the topic being discussed. Saying that Sweden did not practice white supremacy because they were too white shows a poor understanding of the term as it's used in this context, and seems like original research. The place to discuss specific content issues is the article's talk page, talk:White supremacy. Thank you. Grayfell (talk) 19:58, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Meaning of Life
Re. your reverting my edits, there wasn't a word of original research. All fully referenced as David Benatar as I was just in the process of adding. Balance is needed in this section as there are scores of points on the good in life and one line on the bad. Perhaps you could add this balance? Pipkin2.0 (talk) 00:19, 11 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Hello. I will start a discussion at the article's talk page in a moment. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 00:23, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I've taken it from the same text as referenced at antinatalism David Benatar. Sound reference, if a somewhat unpalatable subject for some. Pipkin2.0 (talk) 00:29, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Recent edits
You made some minor edits to List of sports team names and mascots derived from indigenous peoples (thanks) without commenting on my proposed split/renaming. Since it has been a month since I placed the notice I will proceed with the process.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 16:15, 12 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. I will post a comment in support of that on the article's talk page. Grayfell (talk) 04:09, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Regarding Rajdweep Dey
Hello Grayfell, Thank you for your advices. I have removed the promotional words from the page Rajdweep Dey. Please remove the advertisement tag as it is not an advertisement. Rajdweep is a famous playwright, lyricist from the state of Assam, India. I have given some reliable sources also. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Axomiya deka (talk • contribs) 09:43, 21 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Hello. The article still needs much, much better sources. "Famous" is determined by reliable sources, which you still have not included in the article. The advertising tag has been removed, but that doesn't fix the article's more serious problems. If you cannot provide reliable sources (not IMDB), then the article will be deleted yet again. Grayfell (talk) 22:44, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Summaries are usually better than direct quotes. / Brianna Wu
If you say so. Personally, I feel such summaries fail to accurately capture what the person was trying to convey for the sake of shortening an article by a few characters. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 02:47, 22 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I agree that it's more accurate, but it's also selective. A quote like this takes a Wikipedia editor's choice of a journalist's assessment of the article subject's comments of what was relevant at the time they gave the interview (in response to an unknown question or talking point) and raises that quote to lasting encyclopedic significance. These are choices editors have to make, but picking one direct quote out of several makes the POV problems worse. If you want to make the case for that particular quote, you should do so on the article's talk page. Grayfell (talk) 03:10, 22 January 2017 (UTC)


 * No, I wanted to discuss it in general, rather than that particular quote, but it is the example we have at hand. Do you honestly feel that a Wikipedia editor choosing to summarize what the person wanted to express raises fewer POV issues than quoting them directly?  (In this case there were no questions in the article, or I would have included a "in response to the question X" the person responded "Y".)
 * As this is our example, do you not feel you stripped something from what Wu said by removing the sentiment that "so many terrible things are going on"?
 * Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 05:24, 22 January 2017 (UTC)


 * That's kind of a loaded question. Presenting a quote without the surrounding context of the quote's source also strips something from what a person says. Whatever I may have stripped from what she said was not unambiguously important for clarifying her position. If its significance is not obvious from the source, then the quote's inclusion is subjective, because it's conveying something based on one editor's assessment of its relevance, not on the source-article's emphasis of the point. If this specific point were in some way confusing, or were controversial (as opposed to being about  a controversial figure) or were being emphasized by a third-hand source, I would support its inclusion. This isn't the case. It was one of three paragraphs quoting her, and it's not clear why that one was better than "I think the next step is for women to reach inside of ourselves and find that courage and run for office to change some laws." or "It's so imperative that people of my generation, native to technology, that we step up and make our voices known." (I do not believe any of those quotes belong, in case that wasn't obvious.) It's clear from the source that her decision to run was not just about Trump, so using that quote while ignoring the larger context provided by the article is non-neutral. That's why quotes are so tricky. So to answer your question, yes, I believe my summary addresses a POV issue introduced by your direct quote. To extend this to an "in general" sense, this issue comes up pretty often. For several reasons, I feel that if a short summary works well, it's almost always (but not always) going to be more neutral than using a lengthier quote. Grayfell (talk) 06:18, 22 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I know I used quotes again, but it is hard to rephrase tweets. If you can find a way to do it, please do. Cheers, SVTCobra (talk) 20:32, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Sebastian Gorka
I'm willing to wait on secondary sources that will be coming regarding the reckless driving criminal convictions. But why remove the entire paragraph including the weapons charge and upcoming sentencing of Feb. 3, 2017, which is well sourced? (I can and will add two more sources, including the WSJ and the Hill) This charge is quite relevant. Where do you propose this paragraph go on the page then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anon3579 (talk • contribs) 05:14, 27 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I've replied at User talk:Anon3579, to consolidate conversation to one place. Grayfell (talk) 05:23, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

White Pride redoux

 * Thank you very much, I appreciate it! Grayfell (talk) 02:23, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Giving Copyright Permissions
Thank you for the input on why the material I added on my company's page was removed. I have a question, however. If I follow the procedure for giving copyright approval for the material from our website, will the OTRS pending template show up for all viewers, or only members of Wikipedia? Logan!1989 (talk) 01:46, 3 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Hello. Before I answer your question, I must insist that take a look at Wikipedia's guidelines on having a conflict of interest: Conflict of interest. You may also find Plain and simple conflict of interest guide helpful. I reverted your edits to EBSCO Industries because they were too promotional. Wikipedia is not a platform for advertising. That's reason enough to remove that material, so donating the content to Wikipedia would not be sufficient for inclusion in the article. The OTRS pending template would be posted to the article's talk page:Talk:EBSCO Industries. From there it would be visible to all users. For the above reasons, I do not think donating that material would be productive, however. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 03:25, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

T.S. Pettibone
Do you consider that Brittany and Nicole Pettibone should be merged into one article named T.S Pettibone? They are working with Lauren Southern, InfoWars, and are heavily influential in the alternative right movement. It would seem that it would carry a Wikipedia page, but it definitely requires work on independent third-party sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Can1r53 (talk • contribs) 04:26, 4 February 2017 (UTC) WP:SOCK


 * Hello. I'm not sure, but my first thought is that they should not be combined. Right now it looks like most sources discuss Brittany as the "Pizzagate expert" while some other sources discuss the twins' fiction career. I will take a look for more sources when I get the chance. I'll also set-up the talk page for the article to make it easier to discuss in a place where more editors are likely to contribute. Grayfell (talk) 05:58, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Also
Would you consider Brittany Pettibone as starting with alt-right or conservative in the description? I've seen both listed, but she seems to be freely associated with the alt-right movement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Can1r53 (talk • contribs) 04:31, 4 February 2017 (UTC) WP:SOCK


 * Yes, I tentatively think alt-right would be appropriate, but... Describing people by their political affiliations needs to be handled carefully, and especially for alt-right figures. Some, like Mike Cernovich, embraced the label early on, but than distanced themselves as it became more clearly known as a euphemism for white supremacist. Cernovich has personally tried to remove the term alt-right from his Wikipedia article, which is an example of how things can get complicated. If sources are clear that Pettibone is an alt-right figure, and consistently define her as such, that could be put in the lead. If it's merely frequent, or tangential, it's probably better to discuss on the article's talk page. You should take a look at WP:BLP also, if you have not already. Grayfell (talk) 05:58, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Hello from Picnicin
Hello Grayfell, Thanks for the welcome, Hope its ok saying Thank you here! Picnicin (talk) 02:07, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Hi from Reggie.
Hello Grayfell, is there a means to reach you privately? If yes, do let me know. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reggie Olubunmi Atere (talk • contribs) 08:34, 14 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Hello. I would much rather use talk pages. If you absolutely must contact my privately, you can send me an email through Wikipedia. On the Desktop version, this is done by clicking "Email this user" on the left-hand sidebar of this talk page. I will not respond by email to users I do not know and trust well, however, so again I would strongly prefer all communication be held on talk pages. Grayfell (talk) 09:07, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Farrell Edits
Here are my complete edits and reasons. Please reinstate my changes...

Eliminated:

Before writing further about men's issues and empowerment, Farrell spent years researching incest, including the ways people who commit incest justify their actions and (controversially) the potentially positive impact on family life. In a 2015 article in Mother Jones magazine, Mariah Blake summed up his findings and quoted him on the topic: "In a 1977 interview with Penthouse, Farrell explained that some saw incest as 'part of the family's open, sensual style of life, wherein sex is an outgrowth of warmth and affection.' The magazine also quoted him as saying that 'genitally caressing' children was 'part of a caring, loving expression' that helped them develop healthy sexuality." These ideas threatened his reputation; as Blake reported, "Farrell maintains that he said "generally caressing" and that the magazine conflated his ideas with those of his subjects. "'The question is, how does a man or a woman justify having incestuous relations?' he told me. 'I was reporting how people justified it. In most cases the article made that clear, but in some cases what the people I interviewed had said got mixed up with what I said.'" In the face of reputation-damaging public reaction, Farrell ended up not publishing the book.[16] Reason: The only sources, pornography and a radical feminist magazine’s attack whose purpose is to discredit the men’s issues movement’s leaders rather than report what is being said, is not a source worthy of Wikipedia. Re; Mother Jones, the comment section documents how people attending the conference covered by Mother Jones reported a completely different experience, such as half of the keynote speakers being women, including women of color, such as Senator Cools of Canada. Eliminated: Not all responses have been positive, as Mariah Blake notes in Mother Jones, and some readers have taken Farrell's claims to an extreme degree--using them as justification for violence, for example. As Blake notes, "It wasn't until recent controversies drew attention to the men's rights movement that Farrell began to feel his ideas were having a real impact. During an interview on NPR's All Things Considered in September (2014), Farrell suggested that men's rights activists were tackling the very problems that may prompt young men to go on shooting rampages. 'We're all in jeopardy,' he said, 'if we don't pay attention to the cries of pain and isolation and alienation that are happening among our sons.'[60]" The audience for his Twitter feed has found some of his tweets problematically sexist, such as "Does the [new edition of] Myth of Male Power start with a naked woman? See Warren Farrell's 2014 ebook. #mensissues."[61]

Replaced With: While Farrell’s 2015 TEDx presentation on The Boy Crisis, and his interviews related to his Why Men Earn More  have received broadly positive responses, he has also been controversial in both liberal and conservative circles. His support of Clinton in interviews with worldwide media also The Fiscal Times http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2016/05/10/Hillary-Plays-Woman-Card-More-Men-Are-Being-Dealt-Out; Yahoo https://www.yahoo.com/news/men-rights-pioneer-backs-hillary-000000407.html were protested by some men’s rights advocates. Conversely, his statements on media such as NPR catalyzed the objections of some feminists. Farrell reminded feminists of the man-hating of some early feminists, such as Valerie Solanas’ SCUM Manifesto (Society for Cutting Up Men), and that it didn’t block him from finding feminism’s best intent. He argues that this compassion needs to be applied to men--that “it’s important to understand that anger is often vulnerability’s mask,” [See both http://www.npr.org/2014/09/02/343970601/men-s-rights-movement, and http://www.ttbook.org/book/men%E2%80%99s-rights-movement-then-and-now] that it is better to hear anger than to allow a volcano of repressed emotions to explode into school shootings. The 2016-17 release of the documentary, The Red Pill, [FN: http://theredpillmovie.com/ ] depicting feminist producer Cassie Jaye’s journey from her initial intent to do an attack piece on men’s rights activists, to her documenting why men’s issues should also be feminist issues, has had an impact on the popularity of Farrell’s The Myth of Male Power. It features The Myth of Male Power as the “red pill” that, once read by feminists, led to many becoming men’s rights activists. [FN: Besides Farrell, Fred Hayward, Harry Crouch, Paul Elam, and Steven Svoboda are featured, each originally feminists who became disillusioned.] The Red Pill also features Farrell as supporting the portions of feminism that expands women’s options, but objecting to the portions that he feels demonize men and undervalue the family and fathers.

Reason: Re: the eliminated paragraph, there is no evidence of anyone taking Farrell’s claims as a justification for violence. Re; Mother Jones, the comment section documents how people attending the conference covered by Mother Jones reported a completely different experience, such as half of the keynote speakers being women, including women of color, such as Senator Cools of Canada. A radical feminist magazine’s attack whose purpose is to discredit the men’s issues movement’s leaders rather than report what is being said, is not a source worthy of Wikipedia. The eliminated paragraph only cites Wikipedia’s general page on NPR, which says nothing about the show being referred to. The replacement is the actual quote and a summary of the two NPR shows in which Farrell and NPR dealt with this issue. It is now in the context of both criticism and praise, in Wikipedia tradition.

Unseen remnant (talk) 21:37, 21 February 2017 (UTC)


 * I have multiple objections to these changes, but the place to discuss them is the article's talk page, not here. Grayfell (talk) 21:40, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Good evidence to support... but problem.

 * https://www.altright.com/2017/01/25/a-deplorable-at-the-deploraball/
 * https://altright.com/tag/brittany-pettibone/
 * https://altright.com/author/bpettibone/
 * https://www.altright.com/tag/lana-lokteff/
 * http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/why-the-alt-right-is-celebrating-trumps-win-w452493

Brittany Pettibone is an extensive editor of the website. But there is no non-primary documentation that I could find about her and the website. Would it be okay to include a primary source due to its importance and the lack of current mainstream attention to it. She has a huge influential following, notability, and in my opinion should be included in it. Same thing with Lana Lokteff of Red Ice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by YorkvilleFan (talk • contribs) 01:32, 22 February 2017 (UTC) Editor is a sock puppet


 * I think it's time to move this to Talk:Richard B. Spencer, but without reliable secondary sources, it looks premature to me. The greater lasting significance of altright.com has not been established yet, and we should guard against WP:RECENTISM. It seems like it could be another minor site in the walled-garden Spencer and his friends populate. Honestly, I'm not sure that Pettibone's article would survive WP:AFD at this point, either. Wikipedia reflects sources, and if something lacks reliable coverage, that is not Wikipedia's problem to solve. It's a necessary blindspot. I would advise patience to see if more sources pop up, but perhaps other editors might have a better suggestion. Again, the article's talk would be the place to find out. Grayfell (talk) 01:36, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

The Red Pill
I noticed you removed Breitbart as an unreliable source. Is Breitbart unreliable on this article in particular because they supported the film, or has Breitbart been deemed unreliable in general? If the latter, please point me to the discussion page where this was decided. Thanks, --SVTCobra (talk) 04:26, 22 February 2017 (UTC)


 * A bit of both, I guess. Breitbart isn't reliable for statements of fact per many, many discussion at WP:RSN and elsewhere. Its use for opinions, and move reviews specifically, has also come up multiple times at WP:RSN, and it's never pretty. In that case some leeway is given for using it for attributed opinions. One example was a lengthy debate which was very heated and very specifically tied to context. That discussion was about using a review by Christian Toto. Toto writes about film specifically, and is a member of Broadcast Film Critics Association (which isn't as prestigious as it sounds, but is better than nothing) and so his opinion holds more water. Yiannopoulos was nominally tech editor, not film editor, and was not in any way recognized as an expert on movies that I know of, making him even less reliable than usual. Incidentally, that discussion also reaffirms that Breitbart isn't reliable for facts. Grayfell (talk) 09:31, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Talk requested on Richard Spencer
I am contacting you in regards to the article, Cuckservative. There were a number of recent edits/reverts regarding whether or not Richard Spencer should be listed as either a Nationalist, Supremacist, or Identity Activist.

Please take a moment to review the talk section I have generated here and provide whatever information you wish to convey on the matter. Thanks. Sawta (talk) 17:41, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Your edits to Bhargav Sri Prakash
I am looking to understand the basis upon which you continue to revert edits to Bhargav Sri Prakash, as you repeatedly revert edits that have references to recently peer reviewed publications at Stanford Medical School, as well as a recent article on CNBC-TV18, as "puff". Both of these would be considered reliable sources for reference per wikipedia standard. Would you consider editing the contribution instead of just reverting it without even a discussion. It appears that your interpretation of the evidence presented in the scientific literature is inconsistent with the facts, as you assert that such research is based on psychology. Would you please disclose any conflict of interest with this subject and/or the need for misrepresenting the work of a living person? I am not a seasoned wikipedia contributor or power user but I am just a researcher. Should such baseless reverts of contributions prevail because of your administrative privileges, without as much of a willingness for a discussion on the talk page, then I guess I would just be more inclined to stop contributing to wikipedia. 2601:647:4D01:1100:95B6:66C:8B0F:C260 (talk) 04:27, 7 March 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm not an administrator. That article has strong signs of having been edited by paid editors in the past, so accusing me of a "conflict of interest" is bizarre and misguided. The place to have this discussion is the article's talk page, but those sources were not nearly as persuasive as you are presenting them here. Wikipedia favors WP:SECONDARY sources, especially for medical claims, per WP:MEDRS. Again, this is not the place to go into further detail. Grayfell (talk) 04:33, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Do not abuse your power.
You disagree with me, and then threaten to block me and accuse of an edit war, which is also what you are doing. I don't understand why you accuse me of original research when I GAVE YOU THE SOURCES, THEIR VIDEO, WHICH WAS RACIST. Stop reverting my edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samuel Williscroft (talk • contribs) 23:30, 8 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Hello. I'm not an admin or anything so I don't know what power you think I have, but nobody is allowed to edit war. Do you understand the difference between published research and original research? If not, you need to slow down and check that out. There are problems with your edits, and reverting to them over and over isn't going to fix those problems. If you have questions, the talk page is a better place, because if you keep edit warring, you'll be blocked (by an admin, not by me). If you want to discuss the videos, the place to do it is talk:BuzzFeed, but you'll need sources which specifically say "these videos are racist" or "these videos have been criticized for being racist" or something like that. The videos themselves don't work as a source here, no matter how racist they are. Grayfell (talk) 23:37, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Tri Delta edits
Hi there, you seem to disagree that an individual who has been on a Disney Channel program counts as a notable member. This seems to be a bit subjective, however, and simply because you do not feel this program is as notable as others, I ask that you avoid letting your opinion get in the way of sharing this information. Furthermore, a clip of the program is accessible online, but it is hosted on Vimeo and is not permitted to be linked in the Wikipedia article. If you simply perform an internet search of "maddy snow globe girl show us your stuff", the first video result is a clip from the program. There is also an Instagram post with thousands of likes and comments regarding the program, (https://www.instagram.com/p/77kWxbHMB-/) but I suspect that is not an ideal source either. Her linkedin profile as well as the Rhodes College Tri Delta facebook page both corroborate the fact that she is a member of the chapter. As such, there are independent sources proving that she is both notable, and a member of Tri Delta. Therefore, I ask that you stop removing her name and info from the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.157.249.55 (talk) 03:14, 10 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Hello. Wikipedia has guidelines for who is and is not considered notable. This is specifically to avoid subjectivity. Sources need to be reliable, and they need to be independent of the person being covered. This means that social media, like Instagram, LinkIn, Facebook etc., are not usable, because they aren't really independent of her or of the sorority. They are not reliable by Wikipedia's standards, either. The shows she appears on are not independent in this case, either, so video clips probably won't work. Please take a look at Notability (people) for more on this. Lists of people, such as the sorority article, have similar guidelines. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 03:24, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Reverts
When you have a problem with part of an edit, fix it, instead of lazily reverting the whole thing and throwing away hours of someone else's work in five seconds.Jwray (talk) 02:20, 13 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Right now I am barely restraining the urge to tell you to go fuck yourself.Jwray (talk) 02:21, 13 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I don't really care about your (lack of) restraint. The burden is on you to establish consensus for contested edits. The sources were not good enough and the wording was loaded and editorializing. Take it to the article's talk page. Grayfell (talk) 03:14, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Template:Nazism sidebar
Because of a multiplicity of new options, I've withdrawn the RfC you participated in and replaced it with this one Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:42, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Removing notable alumnus from Lancaster Country Day
Hi Grayfell,

I'd appreciate it if you stopped defacing Lancaster Country Day School's page by removing my contributions to notable alumni. If you would like proof of the validity of the edits, I'd be happy to chat about them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.59.53.74 (talk) 01:58, 14 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Hello. I do not accept your comment that I am "defacing" the page. If Ralph Drake is notable, it should be possible to meet Notability (people) guidelines. If those guidelines cannot be met, he is not considered notable by Wikipedia's standards. Being a computer scientist isn't inherently noteworthy, and being an "innovator" is a peacock term, not a real title. I recommend discussing this at Talk:Lancaster Country Day School instead, so that other interested editors can participate. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 02:07, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Art+Feminism @ Portland Institute for Contemporary Art (March 18, 2017)
You are invited to the upcoming Art+Feminism edit-athon, which will be held at the Portland Institute for Contemporary Art (415 Southwest 10th Avenue #300, Portland 97205) on Saturday, March 18, 2017 from 10:00am – 5:00pm. For more information, visit Eventbrite.

Hope to see you there! -MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:46, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Thrillist Media Updates
It looks like someone from the corporate side of Thrillist (Grp9) is trying to delete public information about the CEO of TMG and now Group Nine Media, Ben Lerer. Thank you for handling that. Lerer is currently in a public battle with employees over unionization efforts.

Carlstreator (talk) 22:13, 14 March 2017 (UTC)carlstreator

Copyright specifics please
@Grayfell Hello, please specify what you mean by copyright. I work for Isagenix and everything (perhaps with exclusion to the Dr. Oz fact) that I updated is facts from our website and/or from our health blog in which we have permission to use.There is a ton of misinformation in all sections on the page that needs to be updated, this is not self promotion. Melizdean (talk) 03:44, 21 March 2017 (UTC)Megan
 * Hello. I will respond in more detail on your talk page for consolidation, but for emphasis, read WP:COI. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 04:00, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Copyright Pampers page
@Greyfell Hello, I had seen you had revised my edit to the Pampers page and I understand why some was taken off however the UNICEF portion was written exclusively by me and there should have been no issue with the copyright there. Sorry about that, thanks.Sorry I believe I signed correctly if not my apologies.--Cmitham (talk) 13:22, 22 March 2017 (UTC) @cmitham--Cmitham (talk) 13:22, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Multiple Sclerosis Foundation
Hi Grayfell,

Thank you for the warm welcome. Twice now. I was not aware of the username policies when I created my original name - MSFocus.

This is about the page for *Multiple Sclerosis Foundation

I'm brand new to editing Wikipedia. I do work for the organization and wanted to maintain that transparency with my usernames.

I did not intend for the changes to be promotional, I just wanted to create an informative page, since our page in it's current form does not provide a lot of information.

Please let me know which changes I have submitted that need to be re-written in order to comply with Wikipedia rules.

Thank you

Tony at MS Focus (talk) 18:20, 28 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Hello. I appreciate your transparency. To consolidate discussion in one place, I will start a new section on the article's talk page: Talk:Multiple Sclerosis Foundation. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 19:32, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Paul Joseph Watson
Hi,

I'm new to this but I can see you keep reverting the additions to PJW's page. I don't understand how someone's own YouTube videos are not valid sources? I will continue to push to have these links as I think they provide an important aspect of PJW

Thanks

Tom230184 (talk) 20:54, 28 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Hello. You are describing edit warring, which is not allowed on Wikipedia. Please see Talk:Paul Joseph Watson, where I have started a new section on these issues. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 20:58, 28 March 2017 (UTC)