User talk:Pppery/Archive 14

TfD text transclusion suppression
Hello. Could you please take a look at a few diffs I have provide? I'm still a little confused.

This is in regards to this TfD tag of yours, an unregistered user's apparent attempt to help and my response. which is somewhat confirmed when I noticed an edit by User:Jdcompguy.

All the above rather begs the question: Shouldn't this suppression somehow be done automatically? In fact, what is supposed to be doing. Naively, this looks to me to be precisely the automated suppression needed, but is not working? Perhaps something happened on WP:THURSDAY?

Thank you for your time. DB1729 (talk) 02:04, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The system is working exactly as intended; the transclusion is not supposed to be suppressed, and would not be if it weren't for people trying to declare their templates to be special snowflakes that are above the law. The purpose of  is explained at Template talk:Tfm/Archive 1 if you really want to delve into technicalities. * Pppery * it has begun...  02:11, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the explanation. I really wasn't sure if the text was intended to be suppressed or not. I guess it just looked odd to me to see it in a hatnote. Cheers! --DB1729 (talk) 02:20, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Sierra Leone Constitution
You deleted almost the entire article that I worked very hard to write on the Sierra Leone Constitution because it was "unsourced." I am going to change it back to the original unless you take the liberty of doing that yourself. The sections that you deleted was a summary of each section the Sierra Leone Constitution that would have been very valuable to the people who live there but don't have the time to read all 97 pages of it. Those sections did not warrant citation because they very clearly came from the text of the constitution itself (see Constitution of the United States which has minimal citations in the sections that summarize the text). Almost anyone (but apparently not you) understands that. I suggest that you read it to understand that my summarization was not disingenuous. I am insulted and disappointed that you cannot see the value that this article has. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael.c.gallego (talk • contribs) 00:37, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Verifiability is a core policy. The burden is on you to properly source material you add, not on me to find sources for it. Articles (or major sections of articles) should not be based on Primary sources such as the constitution itself. * Pppery * it has begun... 00:43, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * "A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge." The text of the constitution is straightforward. I merely summarized it. Michael.c.gallego (talk) 00:58, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @Michael.c.gallego saying I am going to change it back to the original unless you take the liberty of doing that yourself is not acceptable. Wikipedia relies on consensus - if someone reverts your edit, the onus is on you to discuss the issue and find a solution. Making demands of other editrs like this are unacceptable. It's also rude to quote fragments of policies out of context to try to negate what others are saying to you - Pppery is quite right in their assessment. I will give you more feedback on your talk page. Ian (Wiki Ed) (talk) 15:56, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

So ...
What is this "tool" you are referring to? Steel1943  (talk) 02:29, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * In some cases, for small categories, closers just implement the result by manually editing each page in the category being renamed. In some cases Cat-a-lot is used. More fundamentally, all that actually needs to happen to implement a CfD is for all pages to be removed from a category, and the process of how it is done does not matter. * Pppery * it has begun... 02:37, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedians who stands with Ukraine nomination for discussion, reply
Well actually, you should nominate it for deletion. I understand what you mean, I just wanted to express to Wikipedians how Ukraine is in bad condition due to war crisis. But that okay, maybe I should think about it. By the way, can you give me a favor on helping me improve these pages, Miss Earth 2022, Template:Country data Australian Aboriginal, and Independence referendum, if you wish to. Have a good day. User:LikeRealTimes I got you a message!📩  13:57, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm a firm believer in the principle of consistent enforcement of the rules, not declaring that the war in Ukraine is special enough to be given an exception. And I see no reason why acting on that principle requires me to improve some unrelated articles, none of which are in obvious need of improvement. Finally, please don't use templates in your signature. * Pppery * it has begun... 14:04, 14 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Thank you, I now understand. Hope you can bring maintenance to Wikipedia. LikeRealTimes (talk) 14:08, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Gerrit open changes
Hello!

Since you helped me some days ago with the Jenkins outputs I thought you'd be a good choice to quench my curiosity on this topic. Does every open task have to be closed (abandoned/merged) sometime or is there no "policy" on this? I was seeing that the list of open tasks extended as far back as 2013, spawning 223 pages. - Klein Muçi (talk) 09:57, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * In an ideal world, people would review every patch. Wikipedia is not an ideal world, as people only review the patches that interest them (and I'm not aware of any policy requiring them to do otherwise). This, incidentally, is the main reason I quit actively contributing to Gerrit some years ago. * Pppery * it has begun... 11:57, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I see. Yes, I remember you mentioning that to me some months ago in a conversation at Trappist's talk page if I'm not wrong. Are backlog clearing drives a thing? Is there even somewhere where we can discuss such things? Why doesn't Gerrit have a forum venue where we can actually discuss about projects in general beside the individual patch comments? Or do these discussions happen in Phabricator/MW:Project:Support desk? Soon 10 years will have gone by since the oldest open patch is still open and waiting for review. Maybe such very old patches should be abandoned en-masse. (Or ideally reviewed en-masse and mostly abandoned.) - Klein Muçi (talk) 13:17, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * They will be likely be abandoned en mass when GitLab replaces Gerrit. I've not been following Wikimedia development closely enough to answer any of your other questions. * Pppery * it has begun... 13:22, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, I knew nothing about the GitLab initiative. You gave me something else to read about. :P Thank you! :) - Klein Muçi (talk) 13:59, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Hello!
 * Sorry for bringing back the dead but I had another question related to Gerrit and thought that the answer to it might be a short one so might as well not start a new thread.
 * Can you maybe explain to me what exactly has happened here in regard to the JenkinsBot actions? Why was it set as a failure -1 and then verified removed and then it got verified +2? What does the gray color coded verified removed exactly mean? - Klein Muçi (talk) 12:55, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The first time the patch was +2ed on May 3 the tests failed and Jenkins-Bot applied "verified -1". When it got +2-ed again today, Jenkins-Bot first removed the old -1 ranking to re-run the tests (what "verified removed" means). The tests then passed, so Jenkins-Bot applied "verified +2" and merged the patch. * Pppery * it has begun... 13:56, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I understand. Do you have any idea what might have changed in the background to make such a thing possible? I mean, the first time failing and then succeeding without me actually doing any changes to my patch? Of course, reading the failure reports might have given us a clue what might have changed but apparently it's too late for that, so that's another question: What happens with these failure reports? Where exactly do they live and when do they get deleted? Is there somewhere you can go and take a look at all the failure reports that are generated currently, even those not related to your patches? - Klein Muçi (talk) 14:31, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, here we sort of have the opposite of my example above. Jenkins-Bot +2-ed something, it then removed its verification and +2-ed it again. Why would it need to do that? :/ - Klein Muçi (talk) 14:40, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The reason for the removing and re-adding of a +2 is that different kinds of tests are run when a patch is +2-ed compared to when it it initially proposed. I really don't know the answer to any of the other questions you've asked. * Pppery * it has begun... 14:59, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, so removing the verification is generally a needed step before approving assuming I have set up myself for patch autoexamination by the Jenkins-Bot. My patches will always be marked by it because of that and even if they're +2-ed, JB will have to remove and re-add the +2 again when the merge procedure starts. Thank you! - Klein Muçi (talk) 15:08, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Feedback Request Service
Thanks a lot for re-adding my name to the FRS list. It keeps on saying that I have not edited in the last 6 months, and that is why it has removed my name from the list. But, that is wholly not true. I have always edited, and am always editing. What is wrong with this bot? Do you have any idea? ItcouldbepossibleTalk 02:11, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
 * WT:FRS. I emailed the operator a while ago about the bug, but they aren't very active and haven't responded. * Pppery * it has begun... 02:13, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all you help. ItcouldbepossibleTalk 02:16, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Invitation to comment an RfD
Hello. The RfD at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 May 4 has been stalling for quite a long time now, I guess because the consensus or lack thereof is not clear enough. Could you come and gie your opinion so that the RfD can hopefully be closed? Thanks in advance. Veverve (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Invited
Homestuck Spirograph Logo.svg Invited SBurb Logo.svg Hello Pppery: You are invited to take part in my new game show. Previously, you took part in my last YouTube-related event, so you may enjoy this one! If not, I still appreciate all you do. Cheers, &#8211; MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖

&#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times"> MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 04:36, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Module chart
Hey there!

Some months ago you helped me solve a problem with Module:Chart and thus I was thinking if you can consider making a small modification to it. Can you enhance it so when you hover over a bar (in a bar chart) a line is drawn from it to the x axis together with a number showing the exact number that the column is supposed to represent? Is my explanation clear? As it currently is, you can only know the value of the columns approximately. - Klein Muçi (talk) 11:03, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The module already supports that feature in some cases. See, for example, Module:Chart. I think that the only time it doesn't is when that feature conflicts with hovering over links to show the article they point to, and I don't feel like writing code to remedy that conflict (if doing so is even possible). * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 13:25, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
 * You're right on that I suppose. The case that gave me this idea was exactly what you describe. But, oh well... :P :) - Klein Muçi (talk) 21:11, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

New page reviewer granted
Hi Pppery. Your account has been added to the " " user group. Please check back at WP:PERM in case your user right is time limited or probationary. This user group allows you to review new pages through the Curation system and mark them as patrolled, tag them for maintenance issues, or nominate them for deletion. The list of articles awaiting review is located at the New Pages Feed. New page reviewing is vital to maintaining the integrity of the encyclopedia. If you have not already done so, you must read the tutorial at New Pages Review, the linked guides and essays, and fully understand the deletion policy. If you need any help or want to discuss the process, you are welcome to use the new page reviewer talk page. In addition, please remember: The reviewer right does not change your status or how you can edit articles. If you no longer want this user right, you also may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. In cases of abuse or persistent inaccuracy of reviewing, or long-term inactivity, the right may be withdrawn at administrator discretion. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 08:38, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Be nice to new editors. They are usually not aware that they are doing anything wrong. Do make use of the message feature when tagging  pages for  maintenance so  that  they are aware.
 * You will frequently be asked by users to explain why their page is being deleted. Please be formal and polite in your approach to them – even if they are not.
 * If you are not sure what to do with a page, don't review it – just leave it for another reviewer.
 * Accuracy is more important than speed. Take your time to patrol each page. Use the message feature to communicate with article creators and offer advice as much as possible.

Gasper Crasto
Hi there! Sorry the edit summaries I left when editing the Gasper Crasto article weren't clear. Looking at the history, you'll see I made two edits in a row: one to remove Category:Biography/Sports and games articles needing expert attention (which should not be manually added to an article), and another to add the expert needed template that properly adds the category to the article. The article needs more work - I'll add more descriptive tags instead. Happy editing! GoingBatty (talk) 22:11, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I understood what you were doing. The point of my ping there was to remind you that there's consensus expert needed shouldn't be used without an explanation, and thus you should have removed the tag or added one, nothing more. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 22:22, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

July 2022
Hey. I will clarify that IP was my cousin's account. As a result, I will still apologize and you expect that it won't happen again. Noobguy33 ( supernoob ) (talk) 14:13, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Chu shogi diagram TFD notice removed
The TFD notice on Chu shogi diagram has been removed as I could not find the proposal at TFD. Techie3 (talk) 02:17, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It was intended to be part of Templates for discussion/Log/2022 July 16. I've now added it there. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 02:29, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

academia.edu/download/*
Pppery, User_talk:GreenC_bot probably has some relation to AWSURL/oldstock. I made a proposal to convert these academia.edu/download/ links to cloudfront.net URLs  -  Green  C  06:06, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

why did you delete my tf2 soldier edit?
can you give me any reason what ı did wrong ı search that information ı dont' use any copyrigthed photos or anything else can you explain this to me? Volkan1881 (talk) 13:12, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Because the article you provided cited insufficient sources to prove that the article is notable and instead relied entirely on Giant Bomb, which is a user-generated source that does not count toward notability. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 13:15, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * ok then teach me how ı rules of editing fictional character pages I try so hard and you delete it in two minutes!!! Volkan1881 (talk) 13:22, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * First off, I didn't delete it in two minutes; it was more like two and a half hours between your unredirection and my revert. Second, WP:IWORKEDSOHARD is not a valid argument. Third, ı [sic] rules of editing fictional character pages are to cite reliable sources, as I explained above. Everything you need to know * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 13:26, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * ı thought wikipedia editors always helping each others Volkan1881 (talk) 13:31, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Michael Laski
I'm a little unhappy with what's going on at AfD with Michael Laski. You've closed the AfD, so I'm writing here, but this is probably also relevant to, and. I'm also going to ping as a neutral admin heavily involved in AfD who might be able to shed light. What appears to have happened is
 * (1) An IP editor decided that there wasn't enough about Michael Laski to justify an article, and converted the article to a redirect
 * (2) The redirect got disputed and reverted back and forth a few times until Hey man im josh said "Redirect is disputed, take it to AfD"
 * (3) The IP editor started the process and it arrived at AfD under the name of Laski22 (who has only edited on this and the related party page)
 * (4) Laski22 then immediately withdrew the AfD, ending the discussion before anyone had had a chance to discuss anything.
 * (5) Although Laski22's withdrawl on the grounds that Google books "turned up more than expected" is effectively a keep, Scope-creep restored the redirect (it would have been wrong to do this during an active AfD, but of course the AfD had been closed by this stage; it was all so fast it's quite possible Scope creep had no idea an AfD had even been opened). But the point remains, we now have an article that's technically survived AfD but immediately been, effectively, deleted.
 * This all somewhat smacks of manipulating the AfD process: being told to go to AfD, therefore going, but then withdrawing the AfD before any discussion could take place. I'm not sure who's trying to achieve what, and I don't personally care tuppence whether this article is a redirect or an article, but I do care about doing things properly. I'm assuming there is still a keep/redirect dispute? This isn't a terribly satisfactory situation. What do you reckon would be best: reopen the AfD so redirect/keep can be discussed there, or discuss it on the article's talk-page? Elemimele (talk) 08:12, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I converted it back to a redirect, because the article is woeful as is the references. I don't see the need for an article on him. The two references are bare mentions and that is the best you can say about them. Such references cannot support a BLP or even a biographical of a dead person. There are woeful. If you want to revert, I will need to three secondary sources that are independent, significant and in-depth. Real deatail, not a bare mention, otherwise I need to delete it if it comes back up a 2nd time. I never an Afd. If I saw one, I would have sent it back for a second go and it would be deleted as the refs are woeful. Having written several articles on communist and still working on one at the moment, then tend to be notable, and with concomitant coverage. I don't understand why they're isn't decent sources. I hope that explains things from my end.    scope_creep Talk  08:22, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I've no problem with your actions: I can see your point that the referencing is inadequate and the redirect might be the right outcome. My problem was more with the fact that someone (josh) requested, in good faith, a proper debate at AfD, but the debate was (probably accidentally) turned into a charade. I think creating a nomination because someone else has requested it, and immediately withdrawing the nomination (thereby undermining the person who requested it) isn't great practice. Elemimele (talk) 09:24, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I totally agree. Once it's posted to Afd it should always run its course unless somebody proves otherwise, which leads to withdrawn nomination. Do you want to send to Afd again?   scope_creep Talk  10:19, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * , would you be willing to re-open the AfD so we can put this lot in the discussion there, and get this done properly? I think that would be less confusing than a second AfD. Elemimele (talk) 12:07, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Feel free to revert my closure and re-open the AfD if you want to. Nevertheless, I maintain that my AfD closure was correct; the nominator had clearly withdrawn the AfD and I'm not responsible for things that happened several hours after my last edit. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 12:40, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you! No problem, I didn't wish to criticise anyone's actions (except possibly, and only mildly, Laski22: if you are reading this,, since you hadn't taken part in the debate at the article itself, and presumably started the AfD because Josh asked you to, withdrawing it wasn't a great idea. It would have been reasonable to !vote "keep" if you found new sources, and it would be helpful to Scope creep and others if you could give links to them. But no harm done! Please accept an extremely small trout with my compliments!) I've created a new AfD as I didn't know how to revert a closure without messing up whatever the Bots do with AfDs. Elemimele (talk) 17:01, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

NPP letter to WMF
Thanks for adding you signature. We haven't asked for that yet because it's not final. I just changed it again. I don't want anyone to be upset because it changed after they signed... <b style="color:#034503">MB</b> 04:05, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for reverting that shortdesc edit by me -- it was an edit conflict and I forgot to revert it once I saw the redirect move. Cheers, Urban Versis 32KB ⚡ (talk / contribs) 02:50, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Confused expression
I haven't the slightest idea what happened. Thanks for reverting. --Hammersoft (talk) 23:48, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

I have unreviewed a page you curated
Hi, I'm Dr vulpes. I wanted to let you know that I saw the page you reviewed, Indigenous science, and have marked it as unreviewed. If you have any questions, please ask them on my talk page. Thank you.

(Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

 Dr vulpes  (💬 • 📝) 19:28, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Reviewed articles should only be unreviewed if CSD'd/PRODded, not when they're AfD'd. --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she&#124;they&#124;xe) 19:38, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hey @Tamzin, thanks for reaching out. The reason I unreviewed the article was because I had just started a rewrite of it and the changes that had to be made were significant.  Dr vulpes  (💬 • 📝) 20:29, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * That makes sense, and I realized that after re-patrolling. However, the idea is that any article that survives AfD has gone through an adequate level of scrutiny for NPP. That may or may not be a legal fiction, but it's the consensus currently. --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she&#124;they&#124;xe) 20:33, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Tamzin yeah that's what I kind of thought, thanks for letting me know :-)  Dr vulpes  (💬 • 📝) 20:39, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Some baklava for you!

 * ... and thank for rewriting the article. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...  13:03, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

IoE AI
Please don't delete ne pahe named ioE AI i will make change then publish it again. Bot786 (talk) 21:33, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Too late. Someone else already did. I would strongly suggest reading the advice already given on your talk page. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 21:40, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Velma S. Salabiye
Hello. I wanted to reach out regarding recent edits to Velma Salabiye's wikipedia. I mean no disrespect. But are you the original author of her page? Perhaps a colleague of hers? A relative? I only ask as I am the significant other of Velma's niece, who had a very close relationship with her aunt. Upon finding the Wikipedia for Ms Salabiye, the family was excited and asked me to fill in specific information that was missing. I appreciate any reply. Lightfoot92 (talk) 00:58, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I have no relation to her whatsoever, and came across the article when patrolling articles with malformed markup (your version says "aged –"). While I could, of course, have just fixed the markup, I reverted you because you added content without citing a source. Wikipedia articles are supposed to be based on what others have to say about the subject, not the subject or their family's personal knowledge. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 01:05, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I was having sn issue with trying to remove the expression error and couldn't find a way to do so. Also, almost all Wikipedia pages about people tend to add specific information (parents, family, DOB and Date of Death, etc.,.), which was mainly all I was adding. Thank you again for the feedback. Lightfoot92 (talk) 04:27, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Ping
Hey did you ever get the ping in this discussion? If not, I think something is wrong with the ping system. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:38, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I did, just didn't see the need to comment at the time. I've done so now. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 17:44, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Semihemidemibarnstar
Lineagegeek (talk) 22:56, 16 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 22:58, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks
Thank you for reviewing my stub pages. BloxyColaSweet (talk) 23:56, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Articles about species are generally easy to review, because they're inherently notable. Do take note, though, of the edits I made to improve the formatting of those pages (such as by not using bare URLs), so that your future stubs are more fleshed out and need less NPP attention. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 00:01, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * What stub pages that I made did you improve? BloxyColaSweet (talk) 00:23, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Festuca aloha, Festuca alpina * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 00:25, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I have made the page Agaricus_annae. I have noted what you have said. Any Feedback? BloxyColaSweet (talk) 00:49, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Looks better, but see my changes * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 00:55, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

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Ayanda Ngila‎
sorry about that, I think we edit conflicted. I think a G4 would have been declined but we'll see how the AfD shakes out. Star  Mississippi  00:42, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Remember that as a non-admin, I can't see the deleted revisions so have no way of knowing whether the current version is identical. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 00:45, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh sorry I just meant when you tagged it for CSD and I tagged it for AfD. Probably a page loading/timing. Star   Mississippi  01:14, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Re: 2022 Spikers' Turf
The article page will be a summary page of all conferences of the said tournament. Reconsider to revert/undo what you did. Volley000 (talk) 08:15, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * No. The WP:BURDEN is on you to provide sources. Not to mention that the above article is largely an empty placeholder anyway. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 12:29, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It says on WP:BURDEN "In some cases, editors may object if you remove material without giving them time to provide references. Consider adding a citation needed tag as an interim step."
 * Give me some time to provide source/s. This season will be the tournament's return after a 2-year long hiatus because of the pandemic. Volley000 (talk) 16:13, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Fine then. But do not be surprised if another new page patroller sees things my way and restores the redirect. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 16:31, 27 August 2022 (UTC)