User talk:Quetzal1964/Archive 5

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Happy New Year, Quetzal1964!


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The Signpost: 16 January 2023
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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Taxa named by C. Richard Robins


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Genus Astrocottus
Hello! You removed genus Astrocottus from Cottidae. I wonder what was the reason for this?  გიო  ოქრო  16:52, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I would have said error but it’s a wee bit more complicated than that. I took the genus list from the 5th edition of Fishes of the World but subsequently found that the list was incomplete. Very incomplete! I tried to fill in the missing genera using FishBase and missed this one. It may not be the only one.Quetzal1964 (talk) 09:16, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

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Synanceia nana
Hello Quetzal1964, thanks to your revert I discovered a misidentified species. The right species seems to be Synanceia nana. I will do the cleanup. Thank you! Best, Poco2 15:40, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

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Precious anniversary
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Status of fish taxonomy on Wikipedia with respect to FOTW 5th
Hi, Quetzal1964. I know you spent a lot of time a few years updating articles on higher level taxonomy of fishes to bring them in line with Fishes of the World 5th edition (along with implementing automatic taxoboxes down to species). Could you summarize what orders/families you worked on and brought up to date, and which ones still need to be worked on? Are you aware of any that you haven't worked on where Fishbase or COF are in alignment with FOTW with regards to the placement of genera in families/subfamilies (or any where Fishbase/COF are notably misaligned with FOTW).

Fishes of the World has some dead external links for the 5th edition. If I remember correctly from before the links were dead, the PDF only listed families, but didn't list which genera were included in the family. As far as I'm aware, FOTW isn't freely available online (ResearchGate says you can download a full-text PDF, but when I tried to do so, I only got a jpg of the front cover).

I think there are editors (I'm one at least) who would be interested in working on updating articles to follow FOTW, and finishing implementing automatic taxoboxes for fish (or at least the extant ones). But I don't know where to start, and don't have access to FOTW 5th. Plantdrew (talk) 00:15, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your message. I have a pdf of FotW 5th edition which I downloaded to my PC from ResearchGate when it was available. I have worked on Automatic Taxoboxes for the, as far as I recall, Siluriformes, Gadiformes, Cypriniformes, Ophidiiformes, Syngnathiformes, Scombriformes, Batrachoididae, Gobiiformes, Kurtiformes, Ovalentaria, Anabantiformes, Synbranchiformes, Istiophoriformes, Pleuronectiformes, Carangiformes, Perciformes, Scorpaeniformes and am now working through the Acanthuriformes. The text of FotW lists the genera, tribes and subfamilies of each family and the various higher taxonomic grades too. Quetzal1964 (talk) 08:25, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I have a resource page for fish that has the ordinal and family listings of the FotW5 classification: see User:Jts1882/phylogeny/Fish. It also has phylogenetic trees comparing different sources (FotW5, Deepfin and some primary sources)., you recently mentioned the work involved in adding taxonomic listings at Talk:Teleost so this might help you. If you want any phylogenetic trees feel free to ask.
 * A listing of the FotW5 classification in pdf form used to be available at https://sites.google.com/site/fotw5th/ but Google have moved their Google Sites hosting and the FoTW5 site didn't migrate. There is a copy of the home page at archive.org, but I couldn't get the classification to download. [edit: found it, see below.] The Deepfin site was also hosted by Google Sites and no longer available, but is available at archive.org. —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 08:50, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I've now managed to find an archived copy of the FotW5 classification: FotW5Classification.pdf — <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 08:58, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Even better, the book is available from the publisher via the Wikipedia Library: https://onlinelibrary-wiley-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/doi/book/10.1002/9781119174844 — <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 12:52, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * , thanks. The archived link you found isn't working for me, but I did get a copy of the full text through the Wikipedia Library, so I don't need the summary classification. I've only just begun to think to check the Wikipedia Library when I run into a paywalled journal article I want to access, and certainly haven't thought about checking there for books. I was planning on working on rays (Batoidea), but am feeling pretty discouraged by the number differences between Wikipedia and FOTW5 (FOTW5 uses a different name/rank for the taxon of the rays themselves, and there are various differences in the families recognized). Plantdrew (talk) 21:41, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The classification list is quite a useful summary. Try again from this archived page and click on "1) Detailed classification of all fishes" or click here for the pdf. This older archived page now works for me, but the link does work on new archived pages for some reason. The availability of whole books from the Wikipedia Library was a surprise and very useful. — <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 06:44, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * There are a couple of resources you might find useful for working on rays:
 * Rays of the World. There is a generous previous on Googlebooks, but you can access the whole book through the loan system at Internet Archive
 * Chondrichthyan Tree of Life (interactive species level phylogeny)
 * — <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 16:44, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. That is useful. I have taken onboard 's comments, and your own, re Teleost that this is 7 years old now. Both FotW and Deepfin projects appear to have become moribund and, at the very least, we do not expect updates in the foreseeable. As I work on converting taxoboxes to Automatic Taxoboxes in fish articles, using FotW5 taxonomy, other editors frequently update their taxonomy with later schemes. These are usually in line with Catalog of Fishes and I wonder if the project should base its taxonomy on that resource. Admittedly, it may be less stable but it is available online. Quetzal1964 (talk) 13:01, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Joseph Nelson died in 2011 and the 5th edition was finished by Terry Grand and Mark Wilson (he invited them as co-authors before he died). They continued Nelson's conservative view to taxonomy for the 5th edition classification, so the incorporation of molecular insights was incomplete. I suspect their will be no 6th edition and that if there is one the character will change. I still have some hope that Deepfin will come out with a 5th edition. The grant may have finished but the authors are still active researchers. Eschmeyer's Catalog of Fishes is another possibility, although they don't go above class. I don't know how often their supraordinal classification is updated; I suspect not that often as the focus is on names of species. Given the coordination between CoF and Fishbase it would give a sound basis to follow from species upwards. — <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 13:28, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I've being looking at the Catalog of Fishes classification and have a few comments:
 * Above family it only deals with orders and classes so is of limited use for higher level classification.
 * It is updated periodically. I'm not sure what classification was the original source, but they do update the orders. Looking at some archives, the order sequence changes over the years and new orders are introduced (e.g. Galaxiiformes and Lepidogalaxiiformes from Osmeriformes, Cichliformes from Labroidei) or orders relegated (e.g. Scorpaeniformes).
 * The main changes seems to be at family and subfamily level. Families are moved between orders or suborders (e.g. in "Perciforms"), new families and subfamilies are introduced, etc. Three families described in 2022 are included. This seems coordinated with Fishbase.
 * The current advice at WP:FISH is "taxonomy at the level of genera and species should follow FishBase" and higher level classification should follow FotW5. I think there would be a good case for changing the advice to also use FishBase and CoL for families and subfamilies. I'm still undecided for supraordinal classification. Deepfin seems a better choice but as discussed above it is now seven years old. There is an interesting new classification of Percomorphs from Thomas Near with some major lumping of orders (especially compared to Deepfin), but it is tucked away in Supplementary materials rather than published as a new taxonomy. In the phylogenetic analysis, there is good convergence with Deepfin, in which families belong to which groups and in the relationships between the groups, but with very differently ranked names for the same groups (e.g. Deepfin's order Cyprinodontiformes is superfamily Cyprinodontoidea in suborder Atherinoidei and order Blenniiformes in Near's classification). A formal publication of this taxonomy would be helpful. — <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 14:10, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

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Lives
Unicornfish are fish and fish are animals. Animals are only animated while they "live". I don't exactly have a problem with "occurs", either, I just think it's more appropriate for events. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:57, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comment. I am aware of the animal nature of unicornfish, believe it or not, I have some background in biology. In my experience we do not usually talk of an animal living in a place. It's not that it would be wrong to do so but the tendency is to say "is found", "has been recorded" or "occurs". I am not sure why that is but it may be that using "lives" is too definite. "Adam lives in Glasgow", however, Adam might live in Glasgow but he takes the train to Edinburgh to work every week day, so he is found or occurs in Edinburgh too, and all the places in between, albeit briefly. Lives is also used to describe longevity and so may be regarded as ambiguous. Occurs, in the sense used in describing species distribution, means "is found" rather than "takes place", here is a definition "exist or be found to be present in a place or under a particular set of conditions". Quetzal1964 (talk) 08:12, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. What you say does sound like something a biologist might say, and it makes sense if I put on my (barely apprentice-like) biologist hat. I've found (and changed) a good number of "is found in"s over the years, probably written by you or those on your level. When I'm only "the man on the street", not wearing a hat, "lives" just seems like plain English to me. It's a fine balancing act we attempt here, between dumbing it down and keeping it scientific. Thanks for the insight! InedibleHulk (talk) 08:23, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

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WikiProject Tree of Life Newsletter Issue 21



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Contest?
Hello, I noticed you've been working a lot on Tree of Life related articles in the past month; maybe you'd like to note your contributions at the Tree of Life Contest? AryKun (talk) 15:31, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
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Intermediate egret
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