Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tiruchirappalli/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:Ian Rose 10:01, 6 January 2014 (UTC).

Tiruchirappalli

 * Nominator(s): &mdash; Vensatry (Ping me)  14:03, 22 November 2013 (UTC) 

Tiruchirappalli is one of the oldest inhabited cities in India. With over 2000 years of known history, the city is fourth largest in the South Indian state of Tamil Nadu. The article underwent a thorough peer review and most of the concerns that came up during the first FAC were resolved. , the article's principal contributor is inactive now. Being my first nomination, I look forward to comments &mdash; Vensatry  (Ping me)  14:03, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Mattximus (talk) 18:03, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Lead

--Mattximus (talk) 20:53, 6 December 2013 (UTC) Date? what are you referring to, the publication of the release or some other dates. The article was published on 28 Nov 2013 and it's pretty to clear that the figures were given out by key members of the Municipal Corpn. such as the commissioner, mayor, etc., In India census authorities give out the complete set of data only 4-5 years after the census operations has been carried out. I have no problem in mentioning the 2001 figures in the lead too, but isn't it better to go with latest published figures. &mdash; Vensatry (Ping me)  05:48, 8 December 2013 (UTC) Etymology ✅
 * First paragraph is well written but there is a discrepancy. The population in the lead is 0.916 million (can this be written as "around 916 thousand") but the infobox states 846,915. Which number does the census quote?
 * The infobox figure is the census data, while 0.916 million is the updated figure released by the corporation based on the expanded city limits. I've added a note to both figures. &mdash; Vensatry (Ping me)  08:35, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Instead of saying as of 2011, can you say as of 2011 census of India, or even 2011.
 * The figure was not give by the census authorities. It was provided by the corporation based on their calculations. &mdash; Vensatry (Ping me)  08:35, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clearing that up, but I'm wondering if it would be better to change it to "around 916 thousand" (or even the exact census count if it's available) instead of 0.916 million (which is unconventional, at least in wikipedia)
 * I've updated the actual figures, thanks to Hindu &mdash; Vensatry (Ping me)  15:56, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The citation does not have this number in it. Also you should say where that value came from (for example, a municipal census) or something like that.
 * It does give the number, click on the next image. I've added a note explaining where it comes from. &mdash; Vensatry (Ping me)  08:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a pretty tenuous source, it doesn't even have a date! Is there an official source from the City Municipality available?
 * I strongly disagree. The news has been published by Hindu (a week ago), one of the leading newspapers in the country. The figures were released after the "Corporation Council" meet. Nothing can be more reliable than that. &mdash; Vensatry (Ping me)  17:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Well the primary source would be more reliable than a secondary source (without a date!) no? Since I don't know how statistics are released in India, and from an outsider perspective it's strange that the official public data is disseminated exclusively through a private newspaper, but I can take your word for it.
 * Sorry I should be more clear. A census was taken by the municipality correct? What year was the census taken? This wasn't apparent in the newspaper article you quoted. 2011? or 2013?
 * Municipal bodies they themselves don't take census; they make just projections. In this case they might have got the data from the census authorities and calculated for the areas that were newly added to the corporation and arrived at the figure. Besides, I've already added a note for clarification so it shouldn't be a problem. &mdash; Vensatry (Ping me)  05:27, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * This is what I thought! You had confused me previously. So the census was the official Indian Census of 2011? NOT conducted by the municipality? Above you wrote that it was the "corporation" that calculated the numbers. I thought you meant the municipality. Now I understand. So the solution would be to fix the note so it says that the municipality calculated the new population using the 2011 Indian census.
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry (Ping me)  05:26, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The sentence has "as of 2011" at the end. We shouldn't say "as of 2013" because the last census was taken only 2 years ago and the city was last expanded in 2010. Doesn't make any difference if I were to say "as of 2013". &mdash; Vensatry (Ping me)  05:34, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Paragraph 2: Is the birth Christianity a good frame of reference for the history of a city in India? Would it not be best to use an approximate date of founding or something more historically relevant to the local context?
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry (Ping me)  08:35, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
 * "Tiruchirappalli's history can be traced back to the second millennium BC when it was a Chola citadel" I thought the Chola's empire did not begin until 3rd century BC, about 1700 years later.
 * Good catch! fixed &mdash; Vensatry (Ping me)  16:36, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Paragraph 3: The "index of 59.02" is meaningless without explanation. Suggest rewording to say something like: "Tiruchirappalli is among the top ten cleanest cities in India according to the National urban sanitation policy (2010)." Or "Tiruchirappalli  is among the top ten cleanest cities in India." then cite the National urban sanitation policy (2010)
 * Agreed &mdash; Vensatry (Ping me)  08:35, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
 * "The city is believed to be of significant antiquity" - what does this mean? Is this phrase adding anything?
 * It implies that the city has a vast history dating back to over 2000 years. &mdash; Vensatry (Ping me)  15:56, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I see you addressed this below.
 * "city has earned it the nickname," does that comma belong?
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  15:56, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Minor grammar issue: "...such as... having campuses in the city". Such as means a list, but you have a qualifier at the end. So do you mean all have campuses in the city, or just the last one in the list? It's ambiguous.
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  06:49, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Wording: "In a rock inscription carved in the 16th century, Tiruchirappalli is mentioned as Tiru-ssila-palli, meaning "holy-rock-town" in Tamil. Orientalists Henry Yule and Arthur Coke Burnell wrote that the name Tiruchirappalli may have derived from it.[6][7]" into something like "Orientalists Henry Yule and Arthur Coke Burnell wrote that the name Tiruchirappalli may have derived from a rock inscription carved in the 16th century where Tiruchirappalli is written as Tiru-ssila-palli, meaning "holy-rock-town" in Tamil.[6][7]" ?
 * Though the sentence would look a bit longer, I'm okay with the suggestion. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)
 * " etymology of the name" this is tautological. Consider "etymology of Tiruchirappalli".
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  08:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I would say it's still tautological. Etymology means the name of something, so you don't have to say it twice. To be more specific, if I used a synonym for etymology, the sentence reads "The study of the name of the name Tiruchirappalli". Consider changing "etymology of the name Tiruchirappalli" to "etymology of Tiruchirappalli".
 * Though your explanation seems logical; I think both are accepted forms: See &mdash; Vensatry  <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Done as suggested. 17:56, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Demographics
 * The city had an average literacy rate of 88.71%; significantly higher than the national average of ??%? You need this value here to make the assertion that it is significantly higher.
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  08:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Why are you using the 2001 census for all this data, is there not 2011 census data available?
 * Only the provisional results have been published and that too is incomplete. It's better to rely on the complete set of 2001 datum until the final results are out. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  08:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The city's population is predominantly Hindu... why give statistics for the percentage of Muslims but not Hindus? Is this data unavailable? (Same with other religions... what does "sizeable Christian population" mean?)
 * Religion-wise data is available only for large cities. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  08:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Changed to considerable &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  07:14, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * This is fine either way, word choice in this case is the same to me. I was just hoping for a number on the Hindu population but I accept it's not out there, comment withdrawn.
 * "As a separate division of the Southern Railway is headquartered at Tiruchirappalli city, there is a significant Anglo-Indian population in the city." This sentence does not make any sense, I'm not sure what you are trying to say here...
 * It does have some significance. The note explains everything. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  08:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I did not say it didn't have significance, just the way it is written makes no sense whatsoever. The grammar is incorrect at the very least. And I don't see any reason why this information needs to be in the note instead of briefly in the sentence.
 * Actually wanted an explanation for the presence of Anglo-Indian population in the city and so it is. I've made some minor c/e. &mdash; Vensatry  <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Dwaipayanc is correct and you should include an explanation here, but that sentence still doesn't make sense. "As a ..., there is...". What? That's not grammatically correct, and I think you are trying to say because of the jobs at this building there are now many Ango-Indians there, but that's not what it says at all. Maybe something like: "There is a significant Anglo-Indian population in Tiruchirappalli concentrated around the Southern Railways divisional headquarters where they are employed."
 * I'm removing the claim &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  05:48, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Added a FN &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:07, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * This is better. I was hoping you would not delete that reference to respect Dwaipayanc's suggestion. I would still prefer it in the main body, but this is fine.
 * Are there any statistics on the percent of language speakers available? I realize there may not be but if there is it needs to go here.
 * That's not even available for metros. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  08:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, substantial population of Sri Lankan Tamil migrants needs some sort of value, what exactly is "substantial"?
 * Again, accurate sets of data isn't available. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  08:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * If you want I shall remove this too. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  05:48, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * No it's ok, best leave it in. I was just hoping for some statistics. I didn't know they are unavailable. Withdraw comment.

Comments from Jim
An impressive piece of work, and of a high standard, but some quibbles <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  15:25, 3 December 2013 (UTC)


 * T he use of italics seems arbitrary in places. It's correct to italicise non-English translations like ragi and cholam but not names of places and things. I have doubts about a number of words, especially where they are not italicised in their own articles. Early examples include Teppakulam, Rockfort
 * I use italics here to emphasise the name of the monument. In this case, Rockfort is used as a proper noun rather than a common noun as the name of the monument itself is Rockfort. Same for Teppakulam &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Surely it's the capital letter that distinguishes Rockfort (proper) from rockfort (common)? Its own article has roman, not italic. I can't see how this conforms to MoS. <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  08:07, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  10:38, 4 December 2013 (UTC)


 * British and the French East India companies, BHEL—link at first occurrence
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * nickname "Energy equipment and fabrication capital of India"—is "nickname" correct? Hardly the short and snappy phrase you would expect from that.
 * Changed it to "title" &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * ' 'A few sources say that the city was named Natharnagar after the Sufi saint Nathar Vali''—this is part of your etymology for Tiruchirappalli, but it's not obvious to me how one name transmogrified to another so different. Also seems a very late date for the name of an ancient city to originate.
 * Moved to "History" &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * when it was invaded by the Nizam of Hyderabad who bribed Rao to hand over the city—invaded or handed over?
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * decadal population growth rate of 36.9% during the period 1941–51—"decadal" seems pointless when you only have one ten-year period
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Attributing to the rapid growth of the city, then Chief Minister... —I don't think this makes sense
 * What exactly is the question here? &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You attribute something to the rapid growth of the city, it's not intransitive. Either there is a word missing, or "attributing" isn't the correct word (referring?), or the phrasing is failing to communicate what you intend. <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  08:07, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  10:38, 4 December 2013 (UTC)


 * shelved by the successive governments. —either  shelved by successive governments or shelved by the succeeding government.
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Kaveri and its tributary Kollidam —Kaveri and its tributary, the Kollidam 
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * ragi (finger millet) and cholam (maize) —Why give the Tamil(?) name priority for just these two words in the whole text?
 * shilpa sastras, Jallikattu, Teppakulam, Mandapa —not italicised in own articles, not clear why here. Also inconsistent with Aadi Perukku, Samayapuram flower festival, Vaikunta Ekadasi
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Scheduled Castes (SC) and Scheduled tribes —why is "tribes" lc?
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Gandhi market—why is "market" lc?
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * American diamonds —link or explain, or some readers will think these are actually diamonds, and from America.
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Mandapa —why capped?
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * With limited sources of entertainment in the city, parks monitored by the corporation suffer from maintenance issues —apparent non sequitur
 * Done I think. Thanks for the comments &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, no further queries, good luck. <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  10:56, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Jim!♦ Dr. Blofeld  11:08, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Cas Liber
I'll take a look and make straightforward copyedits as I go (please revert if I accidentally change the meaning), and jot queries below. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:43, 5 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The prose of the lead will read better if all three paragraphs do not start with "Tiruchirappalli..."
 * I've listened to reviewers often saying new paras should start by naming the subject directly. Correct me if am wrong. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  06:42, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Certainly one - and it is better to use the subject name rather than "It.." - but not all three. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:02, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:13, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * ..." is believed to be of significant antiquity" - fluffy phrase. Adds nothing. Let the facts speak for themselves.
 * Removed &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  06:42, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 *  Tiruchirappalli has a number of historical monuments....being the most prominent. - reword to " The most prominent historical monuments in Tiruchirappalli include the Rockfort, the Ranganathaswamy temple at Srirangam and the Jambukeswarar temple at Thiruvanaikaval." (or something similar)
 * Done as suggested &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  06:42, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You mention it is an important educational hub in the lead - is it more so than other large cities in the region? I don't think a reference to its importance in British rule (in the Education section) is sufficient for this.
 * It has more "Institutes of National importance" than Chennai, the state's capital. As for the British rule, I guess the next two sentences support the claim. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  06:42, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The point is, the references for its importance in education in British rule can't be used for now. The ref now added to the lead should be used in the body of the text and expanded on a little. Also "hub" is a somewhat informal maybe - not sure on this. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:06, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm still not clear. Do you want to add a recently published source for its importance in British period? Alternate word for hub would be centre which again makes no difference. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:09, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay - I see. Mainly I wanted the lead's material to be replicated somehwere in the body of text, which it now is Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:19, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 *  The recorded population density was 5,127 /km2 (13,280 /sq mi) while the sex ratio was 1000 - something missing here in the ratio...
 * The sex ratio is equal, is there a need to elaborate on this? &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  06:42, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Then it would be 1000:1000 or 1:1 - not just "1000", which is not a ratio. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:02, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Good catch! Fixed now &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:09, 6 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I am worried that the 2nd-4th paras of the Early and medieval history section are a bit listy (event after event after event) - any encompassing sentences describing them will improve the prose flow I think, or anything else that breaks this procession.
 * What could be added in "History", nothing but events. Can you be more specific about what needs to be changed? &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  18:25, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The section contains alot of sentences along the lines of, "this happened, then that happened (etc.)". I am not familiar with Indian history, so it is just alot of names. I wondered whether any descriptors - was it a particularly turbulent time overall, was the city poor or rich. Anything else that breaks up the sequence would be good. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:19, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The Pallavas constructing the rock-cut cave temples within the Rockfort, the Delhi Sultanate plundering the region, the idol of the Ranganatha in the Srirangam temple disappearing, the Vijayangar kingdom reviving Hinduism by reconstructing temples and monuments that were destroyed by the Muslim rulers, the city flourishing under the reign of Vishwanatha Nayak who constructed the Teppakulam and built walls around the Srirangam temple, Nizam of Hyderabad bribing Murari Rao, Wallajah proposed renaming the city to "Natharnagar", etc., all these facts aren't interesting? &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  16:50, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Interesting - the way that you said it just then made it sound more interesting. Maybe I am wrong about what needs to be remedied. I will look again. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:12, 10 December 2013 (UTC)


 * In this section, I have seen the phrase/verb "began to decline" used 3 times at least - often the "begin" is redundant, and "decline" can be used alone. Also, can we use another verb instead of decline at least once here?
 * Done I think &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:09, 6 December 2013 (UTC)


 *  Gradually, the Vijayanagar Empire began to establish their supremacy... - "began to" redundant here I think
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:09, 6 December 2013 (UTC)


 *  There have been occasional outbreaks of violence against the Sri Lankans. - I'd take out the 'the' here
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  17:09, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

More later. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:55, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I have read through various sections of this and part of me feels the prose is at or somewhere near FA status - I am not seeing any prose-clangers but have a feeling the prose could do with a little more massaging. CAn't comment too much on other issues as I am not familiar with the city, but call this a leaning support unless other folks find prose issues, which I'd also consider need doing. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:29, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Omer
Firstly; I could not stop my self to appreciate your (Vensatry) dedication and hard work for the article. Best wishes for FA.

The article is well written and is improved a lot since my last visit, Though it is hard to find any errors, mean while to improve the article further more I would like to suggest some comments.

Want to express some comments on section "Education" will continue later. Regards :)- --Omer123hussain (talk) 20:35, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * As of 2009, the Indian software company Infosys is planning to start its operations in Tiruchirappalli.[193] : Do we need to keep it or mention it? I mean its been a long time, since 2009 if Infosys had not executed there plan then it means they dropped it. So better remove that stuff and not to confuse the readers.
 * Agree and removed &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  10:20, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Almost 1/2 of the third paragraph of "Economy" section speaks about BHEL production, facility space etc. Its better if we chop some stuff and add the number of employment provided by the facility and how it had helped the revenue generation of the Trichy.
 * Removed content which is too specific about BHEL and added some stuff on how much people it employs, rest is already explained. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  10:20, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Currently what is the main revenue generation sector of Trichy ? What % of population is employed in it ? It says number of retail and whole sale markets are located in trichy, please name few and there business (Employment and revenue) capacity. If it had any major crop whole sale market we need to mention it and specially in which particular product that market do business.
 * It's obvious that fabrication is the industry that the city largely depends upon, though I've not mentioned directly. As for the wholesale market, Gandhi Market is already there and other retail outlets are non-notable to be listed here. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  10:20, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * this says trichy district produces 13% of India's Sunflower oil seeds, so there may be oil companies in the city which provides employment to some good % of the residents. Onion is the second largest vegetable crop of India, and Tricy produces 14.2% of Tamil Nadu's contribution. As a district head quarter the city Veg and fruit markets spl Gandhi market etc deserve to be mention in the "Economy" section. Some other Sources which may help in this regards are Breif Industrial profile of Trichy and this.
 * All these pertain to district level data. The scenario might not be the same for the city. A mention of Gandhi Market is already there. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  10:20, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The section "Economy" mostly speaks about the industries/companies and there annual revenue, but not about that sector. ( Except IT and Gem industry, those sections are well written ). We need to know in general not particular.
 * I see you are referring to BHEL which you had already stated above. Rest all is okay I think &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  10:20, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Either use Indian or Western numeric system when expressing the revenue figures, etc. ("Economy"; 3rd paragraph uses millions and 4th uses crores).
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  10:20, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comments &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  10:20, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Comments –
 * "The city is an important educational hub in the state with nationally-recognised institutions...". No hyphen after ly, I believe.
 * Early and medieval history: Comma needed after "from the 3rd century BC to the 3rd century AD".
 * Comma after ref 21 should be moved to be before the citation.
 * Contemporary and modern history: En dash in "pre–independence era" should be a regular old hyphen instead.
 * Don't think the first word of "Anti-Hindi agitations of Tamil Nadu" should be capitalized. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 03:24, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed all. Thanks Giants for offering your time amidst busy schedule &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  06:15, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Note to FA delegates/co-ordinators: I said I would review this article, but have not been able to do so before the holidays. Can I request that you do not archive it until I've had a chance to lokk at it? I'll give it priority from 27 December. Thanks. Brianboulton (talk) 09:16, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I've no objection -- happy holidays... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:11, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Brianboulton: I have a few observations to make on the early sections of the article. I have been making minor prose fixs while reading through:
 * Lead


 * "is home to 916,674 people as of 2011" – this needs to be "was home"; "is" cannot apply to 2011
 * Fixed &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)
 * The second and  third paragraphs are too listy. The lead is supposedly a summary, and lengthy lists are inappropriate
 * Trimmed &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  18:31, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Etymology


 * There are wasted words here, e.g. the whole first sentence. Also, "It is believed to derive" followed later by "this derivation is not universally accepted" - these could easily be merged into a single statement, such as "Some believe that it is derived..."
 * Done I think &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  07:01, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Early and medieval history


 * A 1955 map seems misplaced in a section dealing with "early and medival history". Incidentally, the "medieval" period is usually considered to have ended by the mid-15th century. Your narrative continues for about 350 years beyond that, so the section title needs reconsideration.
 * Moved the map accordingly. In India the period between 8th and 18th century AD is considered medieval. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  18:31, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "Following that,..." – following what?
 * Removed &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  18:31, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "A third invasion attempt in 1793 by Tipu Sultan, son of Hyder Ali, ended in a stalemate;[48] he was pursued by the British forces led by William Medows, thus averting the attack."[49] This reads confusingly, as though Tipu Sultan made three invasion attempts. Also, how was the non-attack a "stalemate"? It sounds to me as though it was a failure, or perhaps a non-event. Finally, the syntax of the latter part of the sentence is all wrong; it needs to read something like "which averted the attack".
 * By stalemate, I mean he was not able to advance further down south. Should I use a different word here? &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  18:31, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I would replace the words "ended in stalemate" with "was unsuccessful". Brianboulton (talk) 21:36, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Done as suggested &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  05:19, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * British rule


 * It is not clear why the "alleged discovery of secret correspondence" led to the annexation of the Carnatic kingdom by the British. It seems a rather threadbare justification.
 * Tipu was the enemy of British. On the other hand, Umdat Ul-Umra, the Nawab, was under the influence of British East India Company. Thus, the British took over. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  18:31, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but I'm none the wiser. "Alleged discovery" implies that it is not established that anything was discovered. And without knowing the alleged content of his alleged correspondence, it's hard to see why a British takeover should result. Brianboulton (talk) 21:36, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * While some sources say "alleged discovery" this source mentions that some papers found by the Britishers at Srirangapatna implicated the Nawab in a conspiracy with Tipu. The British had found out that the Nawab was secretly helping Tipu during the Fourth Anglo-Mysore War as a result of which they had annexed the kingdom. Hope I've clarified that in the article too &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  05:19, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you find a better word than "carved"?
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  18:31, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "it relocated to Chennai in the early 20th century." Surely, in the early 20thC, "Chennai" was known as Madras?
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  18:31, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Contemporary and modern history

The article is very detailed, but I don't think it is ready for promotion yet;  there are still too many issues of style, grammar, clarity etc that need attention. The prose, while by no means bad, is not particularly engaging, and it will take me a long time to work through, given my limited availability and current levels of commitment to other projects. I will continue to work intermittently, but it may not be practical to keep the nomination open for the time that this will take. That is a matter for the coordinators. Brianboulton (talk) 12:22, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * After referring to a rally in 1938 you continue: "Following that, in 1965..." I think 27 years is rather too long a time to treat the two events as a continuum.
 * Fixed I think &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  18:31, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comments and copy-edits. I;ve fixed some of your comments and will do the rest tomorrow. The article was copy-edited by a GOCE member prior to FAC. I'm assuming that you had a full read of the article. So we would be grateful if you can guide us sorting out those prose glitches. Time isn't a constraint; the delegate seemed to have waited for you. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  18:31, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Notes
 * Given Brian's concerns and doubts about being able to assist further in a timely manner, I was about to archive this but I notice Eric Corbett has just been copyediting so will await the results of that.
 * In the meantime, looks like we need image and source reviews; this being your first FAC, Vensatry, I'd also like to see a spotcheck of sources for accuracy and avoidance of close paraphrasing -- will post requests for these at WT:FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:45, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * In addition to Eric's copy-edits, we've resolved most of the concerns listed by Brian. Anyways will wait for him to respond. You may very well carry out the image review and spotchecks. Regards &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  07:22, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Brian for looking at this. I think part of the issue is that the article is trying to cover a big city and it often looks like reeling off lists in prose form to mention as much as possible such as in the education section and musicians etc. It's difficult to make the prose "brilliant and engaging" on such an article. I consider myself a "significant contributor" otherwise I'd have offered my support here for this. I thought it a worthy candidate and it really is by far the best article on the city on the Internet with coverage in individual books being sparse to say the least. Eric seems to be doing a great job with the copyediting, I don't think he's finished yet. Once he's done if there are still concerns about the prose I'll give it another read myself and ask some other people to look at it. If you could keep this open for a few more days to assess the changes I'd be very grateful Ian. Thanks.♦ Dr. Blofeld  08:28, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Quadell
I won't be doing a full review, but I will do an image check, a source check, and spot checks. – Quadell (talk) 17:13, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


 * But I can't help but point out, I think "The actual statistics of the 2011 India census are yet to be released" needs an as-of. – Quadell (talk) 17:45, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)

All other images are legitimately free and used appropriately. – Quadell (talk) 17:13, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Image check
 * The compilation File:Trichy montage1.jpg is licensed as cc-by-3.0, but many of the underlying images are released under cc-by-sa licenses, so the compilation's license isn't valid. (It should be fine if you release it under cc-by-sa-3.0 instead.)
 * File:Sir CV Raman.JPG might have been first published in Sweden, or it might have been created and first published in India and only republished by the Nobel committee. I don't see definitive evidence either way. Either way, though, I think it would have been PD in its source country in 1996, thereby making it PD in the U.S. as well. But the image description should claim this explicitly.
 * The caption for the airport image is not a full sentence and should not have a full-stop.
 * Fixed I think &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  11:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

All image concerns have been fully addressed. – Quadell (talk) 13:15, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

The sources all seem to be high-quality RSes, and they are generally formatted well. I did find some problems, however. – Quadell (talk) 17:45, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Source check
 * Cite 39 uses a hyphen for a page range.
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  11:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, this was fixed. – Quadell (talk) 18:46, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Many sources and refs list author names as [last], [first] (e.g. citation 91 and the source Abram 2003), but other do so as [first] [last] (e.g. citation 101 and the source Burn & Cotton 1908). Some even use both, as the source Playne, Bond, & Wright. These should all use one consistent format.
 * Fixed. As for ref #214, Somerset Playne is the main author, while J. W. Bond, Arnold Wright are co-authors. Should I do something here? &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  16:52, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * This is not fixed. Some citations still use [last], [first] for names, while others still use [first] [last] instead. You should use one format consistently. For the Playne reference, the problem is that you write Somerset Playne's name as "Playne, Somerset" ([last], [first]), but you write Arnold Wright's name as "Arnold Wright" ([first] [last]). – Quadell (talk) 18:46, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Have a look now &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  07:49, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Excellent! There were a few straggling problems, but I fixed them. – Quadell (talk) 14:59, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Related: I'm pretty sure the first and last names are switched for refs 55, 69, 70, and probably others as well.
 * For newspaper articles (authors with initials), I've removed both the parameters (first and last) and replaced with "author" field. Is that okay? &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)
 * You can use the author parameter, or you can use the first and last parameters. Either is fine, so long as use them correctly. It looks like they are now listed in [first] [last] format, which is fine... but see the previous point. – Quadell (talk) 18:46, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Done I think &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  07:49, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * There's something wrong with the date in citation 4.
 * Fixed &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  11:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see what happened. "2012-2013" is the date of the data, but not the date of the publication. I fixed the reference. – Quadell (talk) 18:46, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * You're right &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  07:49, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Check the alphabetization of the references. For instance, you seem to have alphabetized the Tiruchirappalli Municipal Corporation ("SLB Results Workshop") under S, though the entry starts with T. Further, we normally ignore an initial "The" when alphabetizing entries like "The Illustrated Weekly of India".
 * I don't get what you mean by "alphabetized the Tiruchirappalli Municipal Corporation ("SLB Results Workshop") under S" &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  16:48, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I mean the "References" section should be alphabetized, and it is mostly alphabetized. (It goes from "Abram, David" to "Ahmad, Mohd Rizwan" to "Ahmed, Abad", etc.) But a few of the entries are not in alphabetical order. The "SLB Results Workshop" entry is now fine, since the entry starts with "SLB Results Workshop" and is situated between "Sharma, Pradeep" and "South Indian Railway Strike", so that one is not a problem anymore. But there are still other problems. "Burn, R.; Cotton, J. S." is situated between "Illustrated Guide to..." and "India. Director of Census Operations", but it should be with the other Bs. And "The Administrator" is after "Thani Nayagam, Xavier S.", but it should be in the As. – Quadell (talk) 18:46, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Now got it. Some have been messed up while doing the FAC fixes. Will fix them in the morning. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  19:19, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Fixed &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  07:49, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * For "Madras District Gazetteers: Tiruchirappalli (pt. 1–2).", should that be pp. instead?
 * We use pp. for page nos. In this case I don't think it's a page number. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  11:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay. What is it? – Quadell (talk) 13:11, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I did a thorough search but could find nothing. It might be "part" or "volume", not sure &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  16:48, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * It's listed here. The "pt." probably means "part"; it's a part of the name of the publication, so it's fine. – Quadell (talk) 18:46, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * You usually use a space between initials, as in "Kumar, N. R.", but "Pujari, R.M." and "Ramachandran, D.P." are written without spaces. And "R.Rajaram" definitely needs a space. And "Chhabra, G .S." has a misplaced space.
 * Done I think &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  11:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, these are fine. – Quadell (talk) 18:46, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

All source formatting issues have been fully addressed. – Quadell (talk) 14:59, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

I did a very thorough spotcheck, looking through 25 sources. In no case did I find any copyright violations or close paraphrasing; I am 100% confident that information from the sources is consistently rewritten thoroughly in this article. But I did find a lot of places where the information at the source did not fully cover the claims made in the article. (All ref numbers refer to this version.)
 * Spot checks

For these references, I found the information in the article fully covered by the source: 48, 56, 75, 151, 164a, 228, 229, 240, 247, 261, 317, 325, 357, 361

For these references, the statements in this article were not fully supported by the information at the source:
 * 25: The source does not support any of the information in the sentence.
 * The page number was misplaced. Should be fine now. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  12:12, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, the new page numbers support the claim. – Quadell (talk) 15:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * 69: The source shows that plans to move the state's administrative headquarters to Tiruchirappalli were shelved, but it does not mention a satellite town near Navalpattu.
 * My bad, the refs. were switched. Ref #68 mentions about the satellite township. It should be okay now. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  07:49, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, the information is at that other source. – Quadell (talk) 15:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * 96: The source says the hottest months are May and June, rather than March through May, and the source does not mention dust storms.
 * Restored with original ref. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  07:49, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, since I can't read Annesley, I'll have to take your word for it. – Quadell (talk) 15:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * 199: The source does show that jallikattu is held at the outskirts of the city, and that bulls were involved somehow. But it does not show that jallikattu is a bull-taming sport, or that it's played on the last day of Pongal, or that Pongal is a regional harvest festival.
 * Isn't that WP:OBVIOUS? do we need a source which explicitly states that Jallikatu is a bull-taming sport when there exists an article for it. I've added a ref. now &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  07:49, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, I see that that information is at the Jallikattu link. This issue probably should have been at the "possibly problematic" section below instead. – Quadell (talk) 15:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * 213: The source supports the information about P. Madhuri, but not Vaali.
 * Added a ref &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  07:49, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, great, it's covered at that link. – Quadell (talk) 15:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * 281: The source does show that the Jawaharlal Nehru Stadium was formerly called the Khajamalai Stadium. One could assume that first class cricket matches there, although it doesn't say. But it certainly doesn't mention the TDCA, or that it's part of the Tamil Nadu Cricket Association, or that it regulates school, college and club cricket in the district.
 * Done &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  07:49, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * It's all sourced now. – Quadell (talk) 15:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * 295: The source says that Tiruchirappalli has one of the two planetaria in the state. But it doesn't say that it's the Anna Science Centre, and it also doesn't support the claims about expected animals at the proposed zoological park.
 * Added a source for "Anna science centre". The claim for zoological park expecting to host the specified animals are mentioned in ref #299 itself. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  07:49, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The new ref supports the name, and the former ref was just misplaced; it covers the proposed zoo. – Quadell (talk) 15:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Finally, in the following four cases, it's arguable that the information in the source fully covers the claims in the article. I'm not sure whether it's a significant problem or not.
 * 16: The source does show that the world's oldest surviving dam, the Kallanai, was built by Karikala Chola in 2nd century AD. It does not say that the dam is also called the Lower Anaicut, or that it was built across the Kaveri River, or that it's about 24 kilometres from Uraiyur. This is non-controversial geographic info, though, and it's given at the linked article, so it may not be a problem.
 * "Lower Anaicut" is an anglicized name. Do we need a source for that. The sourced does mention that it was built across "Cauvery River" (our article names Kaveri though). I've added a source for distance. &mdash; Vensatry  <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  08:47, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, sorry for missing "Cauvery". I don't think the Google Maps source adds much, honestly. I'll consider this resolved, with or without the Google Maps link. – Quadell (talk) 15:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * 143: The source supports the info about councillors and wards, but does not mention a Deputy Mayor. (It does mention a "Worshipful Mayor".)
 * Added a source. It only mentions that there exists a deputy mayor who is elected by the councilors. Do you need a source which explicitly states that he assists the mayor. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  08:47, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * No, that's fine. – Quadell (talk) 15:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * 163: The source lists 18 Zonel offices, but 38 police stations. (Our article claims 18 police stations.) Some of the listed stations may actually be parts of a single station, though, and it's hard to be sure. The source also does not seem to mention deputy commissioners at all.
 * Done as suggested &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  08:47, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * That's great. By the way, it's generally not necessary to have two identical citations back-to-back, as with ref 137 here. It's not forbidden, but I think it would be a marginal improvement to use 137 just once for the whole sentence. (This is also true for refs 65, 141, 168, etc.) – Quadell (talk) 15:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * 164b: I could not judge the accuracy, since I'm not sure what this article means when it says "However, the city had a lower proportion of murder, rape and kidnapping cases in the state." According to the source, the city's rate is not lower than the state average. It is lower than the second-highest rate, however. Since I can't tell what precisely is being claimed, I can't evaluate whether the source supports it.
 * According to the source, Trichy had the lowest proportion of murder and rape. However, kidnapping was next to second-highest as you say. Rephrased the sentence &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  08:47, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * That's much clearer, and correctly sourced. – Quadell (talk) 15:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

In 28% of the spotchecks I did, there are significant problems. In 16%, there are possible problems, though they may not be significant. In the remaining 56%, there are no problems. – Quadell (talk) 18:46, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the spotchecks! I think I've addressed most of the issues. Some sources might have been misplaced by me (or others) while working with the article, so is the discrepancy. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  08:47, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Will look into all the issues tomorrow. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  19:19, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks Quadell, while some of your points have been addressed, the rest will be fixed by tomorrow. &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  18:36, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Summary of spotchecks: One of these errors was an incorrect page number. In every other problem I found, the given source covered some info, but there was some info not covered in the source. But in all these cases, adequate sources were apparently easy to find. (The nominator was quite prompt.) Many of these turned out to be cases of non-controversial information, such as the name of a dam or planetarium. All the errors I found have been fixed. There was never a problem with original research, it seems, and never a problem with close paraphrasing. In my opinion, I don't think that sourcing problems remain that should prevent the article's promotion to featured status. – Quadell (talk) 15:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks Quadell for your guidance and edits. Both are much appreciated! &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  07:25, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Support. I've spent quite a bit of time over the last few days looking through the prose, and I agree with those above who have expressed some reservations about whether it was of sufficient quality to meet criterion 1a. I haven't checked other aspects of the article, but I would now be prepared to support its promotion if there are no other outstanding issues. So this should be considered a provisional support. Eric  Corbett  15:54, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks Eric, for all the time spent to improving the prose. So kind of you! &mdash; Vensatry <sub style="color:indigo;">(Ping me)  16:20, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Appreciated Eric. Can somebody, Brian or Ian perhaps, let us know if you still have concerns with the prose?♦ Dr. Blofeld  18:00, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Comment: I don't feel I've read enough of the article to make a declaration. However, my concerns expressed earlier about prose have been largely allayed, since Eric has copyedited and is supporting on the basis of the prose quality. So I have no futher concerns, and will be happy to see a consensus to promote. Brianboulton (talk) 00:09, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Closing comment -- This has now had extensive input by a good many experienced editors and I thank them all for pulling together to work with the nominator in achieving his first FA, which is always a challenge. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:29, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 06:31, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.