Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2023 August 29

 &lt; August 28 August 30 &gt;

Population of cities

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was Keep. There is widespread agreement that this is a WP:TRAINWRECK. There is also some agreement among commenters that it might be best if nom takes a break from TfD to gain valuable experience elsewhere. HouseBlastertalk 17:48, 6 September 2023 (UTC) (non-admin closure)


 * Largest cities of Afghanistan
 * Largest cities of Argentina
 * Largest cities of Australia
 * Largest cities of Azerbaijan
 * Largest cities of Bangladesh
 * Largest cities of Bolivia
 * Largest municipalities of Bosnia and Herzegovina
 * Largest urban agglomerations in Brazil
 * Largest cities of Bulgaria
 * Largest cities of Cambodia
 * Largest cities of Cameroon
 * Largest metropolitan areas of Canada
 * Largest cities of Chile
 * Most populous cities in the People's Republic of China
 * Largest cities of Croatia
 * Largest cities of Cyprus
 * Largest cities of the Czech Republic
 * Largest cities of Denmark
 * Largest cities or towns of Ethiopia
 * Largest cities of Germany
 * Largest urban agglomerations in Germany
 * Largest cities of Greece
 * Largest urban agglomerations in India
 * Largest cities of Indonesia
 * Largest cities of Iran
 * Largest cities of Iraq
 * Largest cities of Israel
 * Largest cities of Italy
 * Largest cities of Ivory Coast
 * Largest cities of Japan
 * Largest cities of Liberia
 * Largest cities of Libya
 * Largest cities of Madagascar
 * Largest cities of Malawi
 * Largest cities of Malaysia
 * Largest localities of the Maldives
 * Largest cities of Mali
 * Largest cities of Mauritania
 * Largest metropolitan areas of Mexico
 * Largest cities of Moldova
 * Largest cities of Nepal
 * Largest cities of the Netherlands
 * Largest cities of New Zealand
 * Largest cities of North Korea
 * Largest cities of Norway
 * Largest cities of the Philippines
 * Largest cities of Romania
 * Largest cities of Russia
 * Largest planning areas of Singapore
 * Largest cities of Somalia
 * Largest cities of South Africa
 * Largest cities of South Korea
 * Largest cities of Sudan
 * Largest cities of Sweden
 * Largest cities of Switzerland
 * Largest cities of Syria
 * Largest cities of Trinidad and Tobago
 * Largest cities of Tunisia
 * Largest cities of Turkey
 * Largest Urban Areas of the United Kingdom
 * Largest metropolitan areas of the United States
 * Largest cities of Vietnam
 * Largest cities of Zambia

problems: solutions that won't work: solutions: some points to note:
 * The templates display content, which is usually best optimised to suit the article in which it is displayed, which is not usually possible with a template.
 * Whether such templates are appropriate in a GA or FA class article is irrelevant.
 * In a similar debate: templates in this series were deleted if they were only used once but those that were added to geography and demography articles were not. Could the reason they were deleted be to keep the source code of the articles reasonably clean and simple? Several tables and graphs are transcluded into COVID articles and therefore, this is a precedent which has been used in high visibility pages and some, at least, are quite complicated and used several times. Keeping such templates for this reason doesn't impact the problems with the templates though.
 * The content of the tables should be referenced in the same way as any other data set. It appears that some of the templates have references and display the reference in the destination page but others do not. The content only displays a small set of communities/cities. Why not just link to the "list of cities ..." articles instead so that all the communities/cities are displayed with the most accurate references and data? Why are we making decisions on how many cities/communities to include on the country page instead of the "list of cities ..." articles?
 * The current design only allows for the population and the subdivision in which the city is located. Depending on the laws of the country, a city can be very sparsely populated and be as large as a small country. For example, the Regional Municipality of Wood Buffalo is a very large area with many communities governed by one government. The other case is where a city is densely populated and subdivisions have its own government such as the Boroughs of New York City. It is very misleading to capture and compare cities across a country when definitions differ across subdivisions. Subdivisions and the United Nations have their own definitions too. It has been stated that these templates are useful but that is simply a matter of opinion.
 * The templates are very limiting in what they can display with regard to city metrics. Some example metrics are area, GDP, GNP, and Purchasing power parity. The templates aren't expandable to include all the metrics that are relevant nor does it make any sense to include a large number of metrics. Even an additional metric of area would seem pretty basic and following on that, definitely, population density. Demographics is very detailed and the templates for the cities are not suitable in those articles nor for the geography articles. Geographics and geography is about human geography. Cities include infrastructure and politics. These templates are not suitable for demography because there are too many metrics to include. Specifically: any population related data and/or information including population, sex, age, religion, race, ethnicity, etc. should be split off to demographics articles, such as demographics of Maldives, demographics of China, etc.. Any city related data and/or information should be split off to "list of cities in ..." articles such as List of cities in China and List of cities and towns in Bulgaria. If any ==Largest cities== sections should remain, they should be renamed to ==Urbanization== . A link to the "list of cities in ..." article can be left.
 * It has also been suggested that other transclusion options such as Excerpt and Section which can take an excerpt or section from one article and display it in another be used however there needs to be consistency between the source articles for this to work since the templates are part of a set or series.
 * Reasons they won't work:
 * Only a limited set of metrics can be displayed.
 * The "list of city" articles have to be consistent in order for section and/or excerpt to make useful and consistent content. Transclusion should be used where the same content should be used in several places. An example is the lead for a group of sub-glossaries where the content is too much for a single page but the topic is identical. Transclusion is a tool and like any other tool there are times when it works well and times where it should not be used and times where it is good enough until something better comes up. Sometimes it is not obvious which applies. In the case of these templates, it isn't good enough. Something to consider is if it is WP:undue weight on population and subdivisions.
 * Main and see also hatnote links imply a summary style section in the article from which the main and see also articles are to be linked. This is often the same sort of information that would be in the lead of the main article. When there is also a see also article it can become more complicated. However, countries that have no cities are generally island countries or microstates such as andorra, san marino, and monaco. If a country does not have a list article that discusses cities, it may be created or if it already exists, the content on that list article can be modified or expanded. That fact that this series of templates is problematic and no solution can be devised to solve the problem is a problem with the series of templates and not a problem with other articles. In the case of Bulgaria, List of cities and towns in Bulgaria is linked as "Sofia is the nation's capital and largest city; other major cities are Plovdiv, Varna and Burgas." as the last sentence in the first paragraph of the article. There isn't yet any guidance on how, which, or if city lists should be linked however main and see also are suggestions.
 * countries are not cities
 * cities are in countries
 * countries distribute federal funding as tax to cities
 * cities are taxed by countries Iterresise (talk) 14:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment previous t.f.d.s
 * Templates for discussion/Log/2021 June 20
 * Templates for discussion/Log/2021 May 17
 * Templates for discussion/Log/2017 July 1
 * Templates for discussion/Log/2021 June 20
 * Templates for discussion/Log/2021 June 20
 * Templates for discussion/Log/2018 June 19
 * Templates for discussion/Log/2012 October 30
 * Templates for discussion/Log/2015 February 13
 * Templates for discussion/Log/2018 June 19 Iterresise (talk) 16:23, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep as per many times before...used in many FA articles for decades with no problems like Canada or Japan. Already been here as per Templates for discussion/Log/2017 July 1. Chalk this up to new editor (585 edits) not aware of common usage. Moxy -Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg 19:39, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I just added India and another template related to Germany. Maybe you can reassess. Iterresise (talk) 20:12, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Just so your aware notified WP:FAOWN editors of our FA articles. Moxy -Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg 21:05, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Is this supposed to intimidate me? Iterresise (talk) 22:07, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:APPNOTE "Editors who have made substantial edits to the topic or article. Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic. Moxy -Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg 22:35, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep. The nominator appears to be arguing that these templates don't display every city or every metric someone may wish to know about these cities... but that's not what they're for. They accomplish what they're meant to do, which is provide a list of largest cities and their populations; that information can be supplemented or not as needed for the articles in which the templates appear. No valid rationale for deletion has been provided. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:16, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Invalid argument: Her argument is based on her opinion that the current kind and number of metrics is optimal. Therefore, her argument can be categorized as WP:ILIKEIT. Iterresise (talk) 09:42, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Her argument is not redundant, it is perfectly valid, and it does not fall under WP:ILIKEIT... no offense but you have a severe misunderstanding of Wikipedia policy and guidelines. The purpose of the templates are to list the largest cities or metropolitian areas in a given country, not every single statistic or metric relating to them, and they have existed for a long time. Also, I've gone and checked every single previous TFD you linked; the vast majority of them were either kept, withdrawn, or had their history merged with another template due to duplication, with only two deleted. They are clearly useful and do not fail any current Wikipedia standard or policy. - Evelyn Harthbrooke (leave a message · contributions) 10:50, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm seeing a few fallacies here: WP:CCC and WP:ITSUSEFUL. Iterresise (talk) 12:06, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Except consensus isn't changing here, and nobody is applying WP:ITSUSEFUL to anything. You're the only one who is disagreeing with the templates' existence. Please stop making up false policy violations. - Evelyn Harthbrooke (leave a message · contributions) 01:27, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Please stop lying. Iterresise (talk) 07:28, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Iterresise I'm not lying. You're making up false MOS policies to try and make this redundant TFD request have any relevancy. - Evelyn Harthbrooke (leave a message · contributions) 14:11, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Evelyn Harthbrooke How annoying and childish: The following 3 templates are not countries yet they are deleted. This isn't a vote.
 * Template:Largest cities of Gandaki Province
 * Template:Largest cities of Catalonia
 * Template:Largest cities of Castile and León Iterresise (talk) 17:59, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * They were deleted because they didn't hold enough relevancy. And yes, yes it is a vote. Stop BLUDGEONing everyone who replies to you. - Evelyn Harthbrooke (leave a message · contributions) 19:00, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Speedy keep per common usage and the fact that templates are used to condense information down and separate it from the rest of the articles in question. These templates serve their purpose and they serve them well. They are intended to list the largest cities and metropolitian areas by population, and to be quite frank this is a redundant and unnecessary TfD request. These templates are useful, and deleting these will remove useful information from dozens of articles. Also, what the hell do any of your comments in your "some points to note" have to do with the templates? Obviously cities are not countries and cities are in countries, but these templates literally list the largest metropolitian areas and cities in a given country. I can tell that this request is already not going to succeed; this TFD request is honestly astoundingly ridiculous. Also I find it shocking how someone, despite all the previous TFDs resulting in keep, withdrawal, or histmerge results, deciding to file yet another TFD despite consensus having been reached lots of times to keep these kinds of templates. :/ - Evelyn Harthbrooke (leave a message · contributions) 10:44, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if you read anything I nominated. Unfortunate and a shame. Iterresise (talk) 12:14, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Speedy keep - this is, quite frankly, a WP:TRAINWRECK based on misinterpretation of policy, no need to run the full 7 days.  Satellizer el Bridget (Talk)  11:01, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * And how would you propose to bundle the templates? Iterresise (talk) 12:09, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Easy, I propose that these perfectly useful templates not be deleted. Also, quit WP:BLUDGEONing the discussion participants.  Satellizer el Bridget (Talk)  14:19, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * You are being ridiculous. Iterresise (talk) 06:49, 3 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep per User:Nikkimaria, and per the nom's statement This seems to be arguing that since the templates are unable to do something they shouldn't do anyway, they're somehow problematic. The "problems" listed seem to be matters of personal preference.  Because encyclopaedists summarise. Folly Mox (talk) 08:09, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Another ridiculous keep vote. Templates_for_discussion/Log/2021_November_28 is very revealing here. Some suggestions were to substitute and then delete. Deletion is preferred because substituting only takes the table out of template space and starts the cycle of a table with out a template within this series/set-of-templates. "This series of templates has slowly been created and added to various country articles as they are seen on one page and so created just so the other country page also has one" stated User:Chipmunkdavis in Templates for discussion/Log/2021 November 28. "because encyclopaedists summarise" has nothing to do with this. There isn't any guidance [policy/guideline] which forbids these tables but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be created such as Manual of Style/Polities and within it writing "Do not add tables which show a truncated set of cities and do not create templates with these sorts of tables.". Iterresise (talk) 07:27, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Largest cities of templates were related to Template:World topic a nav aid and is not the same thing. Moxy -Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg 12:16, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Stop being ridiculous Iterresise (talk) 18:02, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * One is a nav aid the other displays a data set. Moxy -Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg 18:32, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * User:Iterresise, your MOS link is red, and the only place the string "truncated set of cities" appears anywhere on the project is in your comment just above. Can you please link the actual MOS guidance you're remembering, so people can see whether it might apply to this series of templates? Folly Mox (talk) 17:40, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Read the comment I replied to moxy. Iterresise (talk) 18:03, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * None of your replies to User:Moxy in this conversation contains a valid MOS link. Folly Mox (talk) 19:49, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment I understand the nomination can be confusing but let me highlight what I wrote: "It is very misleading to capture and compare cities across a country when definitions differ across subdivisions. Subdivisions and the United Nations have their own definitions too." Iterresise (talk) 18:09, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * These are based on census data per country. Moxy -Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg 18:34, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Aslo be aware that things of this nature may get you blocked. pls review WP:AVOIDYOU. Moxy -Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg 18:38, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Behaviour at this TfD has been raised as a concern here:
 * Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
 * — A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 20:42, 4 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep - too many templates in the TfD bundle. Too much bludgeoning. Deleting so many would disrupt too many articles.
 * I suggest the nominator take a break from TfDs for now. Their passion, determination and attention to detail can be more useful in some other, less contentious cleanup areas. Less frustrating for the nominator in particular.
 * — A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 21:09, 4 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep – Adding to the reasons already given, keeping template and table data in separate files—especially when the contents are well defined and not subject to the sort of discussion that, say, an infobox is—seems a valid way of preventing disruption by protecting their markup from clumsy, or even vandalistic, editing on the main page, even if the data apply to only one article. Dhtwiki (talk) 00:32, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Infobox Transformers character

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was merge to Template:Infobox character. The rationales basically point to full deletion in lieu of infobox character. Izno (talk) 15:46, 8 September 2023 (UTC) Propose merging Template:Infobox Transformers character with Template:Infobox character.
 * Infobox Transformers character
 * Infobox character

There's nothing essential that this infobox can do that Infobox character does, all that this infobox does is enable fancruft. Grandmaster Huon (talk) 14:34, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Week keep – The infobox does have many parameters that are specific to Transformers characters — even though they're mostly fancruft. InfiniteNexus (talk) 15:58, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Those parameters will not interest the vast majority of readers. Grandmaster Huon (talk) 21:02, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge; extra features included in Transformers are fancruft that are not essential to an infobox. Infobox character covers the essentials needed for these characters. – Meena • 21:01, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Weak merge as it has lots of helpful Transformers-specific information, but said information can be provided using the blank rows in . — the Main Logan  (t•c) 21:50, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Transformers-specific information = Fancruft Grandmaster Huon (talk) 22:31, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Fancruft = WP:IDONTLIKEIT. - jc37 18:23, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Strong keep – As someone who is not part of the Wikipedia Transformers community/does not watch Transformers, I understand that it may be seen as fancruft. However, some of the parameters, such as the English and Japanese voice actors and the Japan name – are real world info sections and would clutter the infobox character if used (e.g. in voiced by it'd "X (Japan version), Y (English version)" etc). Additionally, the extra parameters help with navigating the article and help prevent it from being added by IPs etc in the storyline section. I think a discussion about the specific parameters (e.g. removing or adjusting certain ones) would be more beneficial rather than a merge. DaniloDaysOfOurLives (talk) 23:33, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Voice acting is present at Template:Infobox character. Also, Transformers is obviously not the only anime with both Japanese and English versions. Gonnym (talk) 23:49, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I never said it wasn't. I said that combining it would make it more cluttering as you'd have to put in brackets whether it's English or Japanese. Also, I never said that Transformers is the only anime with Japanese and English versions, I know it was not intentional but please don't say that I've said stuff when I have not! DaniloDaysOfOurLives (talk) 00:00, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Then if you didn't argue that those parameters were unique to that franchise, what was your argument? Did you just mention those parameters for the sake of mentioning them? Gonnym (talk) 08:28, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete Infobox Transformers character per nomination. This is basically just Infobox character but with additional unneeded fancruft parameters.  Satellizer el Bridget (Talk)  02:16, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Additional comment this is a deletion request for Infobox Transformers character, not an actual merger request. I'd suggest changing this so there isn't a misleading TfD notice on Infobox character for no reason especially when that infobox is used across 7,600+ pages (I've requested it be removed anyway).  Satellizer el Bridget (Talk)  02:30, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * This is not correct. TfDs are used for deletion or merging; this nomination is correctly tagged as a merge request. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:47, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per Templates for discussion/Log/2020 January 11. What makes this template any different? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:41, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge All features of this template are either fancruft or possible at Infobox Character. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:27, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Metric units of time

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. ✗ plicit  11:55, 5 September 2023 (UTC) Unused navbox that also duplicates Template:Orders of magnitude (time) which is used. Gonnym (talk) 10:26, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Metric units of time
 * Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 01:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Attached KML/New Street (Manhattan)

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. ✗ plicit  07:15, 5 September 2023 (UTC) Unused as New Street (Manhattan) does not exist. Gonnym (talk) 06:59, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Attached KML/New Street (Manhattan)
 * Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 01:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:ChinaRMarchive

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. ✗ plicit  06:50, 5 September 2023 (UTC) Now unused. Was used on one talk page which and was subst there. Gonnym (talk) 06:49, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * ChinaRMarchive
 * Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 01:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete Unused template that is no longer needed. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:28, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Citytrain Urban Lines

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. ✗ plicit  06:46, 5 September 2023 (UTC) Unused as Railways in South East Queensland uses a different table. Gonnym (talk) 06:46, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Citytrain Urban Lines
 * Citytrain Interurban Lines


 * Delete both: per nom and practically unused in the article/main namespace. No need to differentiate between interurban and urban lines as they're branded as one cohesive unit to the public. Fork99 (talk) 07:11, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 01:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:2025 World Athletics Championships

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. ✗ plicit  06:45, 5 September 2023 (UTC) Unused and will be unused for 2 years. If the creator wants it then move it to their userpace, otherwise delete. Gonnym (talk) 06:38, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 2025 World Athletics Championships
 * Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 01:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:BS-colspan and related templates

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. ✗ plicit  03:50, 5 September 2023 (UTC) No transclusions. Part of a set of route diagram templates that have recently been deprecated. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:21, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * BS-colspan
 * BS warning
 * Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 01:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.