Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China/Archive 16

Maps of China
FYI, some maps of China have been nominated for deletion, see Files for deletion/2010 July 4

76.66.195.196 (talk) 03:37, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

gunpowder
FYI, there's a request to rename gunpowder. 76.66.195.196 (talk) 04:31, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

han/tibet
According to this, the Han are an offshoot of the older Tibetan group, and the split was 3000 years ago. 76.66.195.196 (talk) 06:37, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


 * This article doesn't say anything about the historical or genetic relationship between Tibetan and Han people, except that Tibetans have specialized genes that help them adapt to high altitudes, which Han people do not have. This article agrees with common sense, but doesn't inform its readers about anything concerning those two groups' historical relationship.  If I'm missing something which says otherwise, please cite that information directly.Ferox Seneca (talk) 00:49, 5 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Bah, retracted.Ferox Seneca (talk) 01:46, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Re-rate page
There's been a major re-write of Involvement_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China_in_Africa. Would you consider re-rating the page? Thanks 69.142.154.10 (talk) 01:01, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Mongol script proposal
People might be interested to leave comments and feedback at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Mongolian). This is in regards to inclusion of the Mongol script Unicode text in Mongolia-related Wikipedia articles, as opposed to solely using Cyrillic. Mongol script is official in Inner Mongolia, People's Republic of China, and most ethnic Mongols in China cannot read Cyrillic, which is official in the Republic of Mongolia. More opinions and ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 10:55, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Informal request for comment: Involvement of the People's Republic of China in Africa
There's a discussion on the talk page about renaming that article. The article is primarily but not exclusively focused on economic interactions between the PRC and Africa, but it includes historical information dating back to the Tang dynsasty. It does not discuss the ROC/Taiwan except as a political or economic competitor. Are there any comments or objections to:

Economic relations between mainland China and Africa

I know there are extensive discussions that have taken place about these terms. They support geopolitically neutral terms, which "mainland China" seems to be. 69.142.154.10 (talk) 06:23, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll basically retract this. I read around, and it's clear that mainland China is almost always used in redirects to People's Republic of China.  Still comment if you want.69.142.154.10 (talk) 08:44, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Wuxia
FYI, there is a proposal for a WikiProject about Wuxia, see WikiProject Council/Proposals. 76.66.192.55 (talk) 01:03, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Chinese cities in List of cities proper by population
Your help is requested in List of cities proper by population. This list contains a number of Chinese cities, usually with a wrong population numbers. As we all know, Chinese cities, especially the direct-controlled municipalities and the sub-provincial cities can be quite large, which surprises people who do not know China. However, city proper is defined as the area within the administrative boundaries of a city. Therefore, the whole population of these large cities must be counted, and not arbitrary small "core districts" as often done in this list. I have tried to correct it, but the edits have been changed back. Please take part in the discussion and help editing and adding cities. Xie xie. -- BsBsBs (talk) 18:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Request for Comment: List of cities proper by population.
There is a new RFC at Talk:List of cities proper by population that asks which definition of city proper to use consistently for the purpose of List of cities proper by population. The outcome of this RFC can significantly influence the representation of Chinese cities on this list. -- BsBsBs (talk) 05:31, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Apus (Traditional Chinese star name)
FYI, Apus (Traditional Chinese star name) was recently prodded for deletion, and deprodded by the author. 76.66.193.119 (talk) 05:49, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It has been sent for deletion, see Articles for deletion/Apus (Traditional Chinese star name). 76.66.193.119 (talk) 04:22, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Unofficial proposal for widespread utilization of mouseover template
I have created Template:Mousetext, which produces, that displays alternate text when the mouse cursor hovers above it. Although there are many potential uses, my original intention and purpose for the template is to include original texts for translations, to minimise cluttering that we currently have with many China-related articles, where the names of Chinese-related concepts have additional data given in parentheses.

For example, instead of:

Zhang Qiangguo (Chinese: 张强国; Pinyin: zhāng qiángguó), also known by his nickname of Old Zhang (Chinese: 老张; Pinyin: lǎo zhāng), was a senior Party Commissariat of the Yunnan People's Party for Democracy and Love (Chinese: 云南人民民主爱情党; Pinyin: yúnnán rénmín mínzhǔ àiqíng dǎng), and a graduate of Beijing University

which is very cluttered and difficult to read and navigate, the same text can be rendered as:

, also known by his nickname of, was a senior Party Commissariat of the , and a graduate of Beijing University

without omitting any detail. Note: The individual and political party described is entirely fictional, for the sole purpose of demonstrating the template. The given name chosen is a common generic personal name, similar to that of "John Johnson". The template does not have to specifically apply to leading paragraphs. It can be used to disambiguate any Chinese name that appears in an article body that does not have an article of its own, and thus cannot be linked to:

On 17 April 1941, Chiang Kai-shek ordered to push forward towards, so that his men could meet up with and assist the army led by  to the south, which was engaging against the Chinese Communist general  and about 500 communist troops. By the end of May, Kuomintang troops controlled all of the region, and  was awarded the  for his actions.

Additionally, since in the future text cluttering would no longer be an issue, we could also solve the issue of distinguishing between Chinese names. For example, Zhang Hen'e (张很饿) and Zhang Hen'e (张恨恶) can be rendered as and  within the main article body (i.e. paragraphs), distinguishing/disambiguating the original name without cluttering up the text body. An alternative use would be the other way round: "In 1432, became the governor of, however was murdered by  not so long afterwards. His successor, , wrote , a novel based on the incident, which became a bestseller during the Ming Dynasty" - however this method might not be so friendly to non-Chinese speakers.

Any suggestions, corrections, criticisms, comments or feedback? Main discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (use of Chinese language). Thanks. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 08:11, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Very good and useful template Lao Benlisquare, useful far beyond China. Xie xie -- BsBsBs (talk) 13:33, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, excellent work. Thanks Benlisquare. Keahapana (talk) 21:13, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Chinese star name lists up for deletion
FYI, several Chinese star name lists have been prodded for deletion, see Category:Proposed deletion as of 29 July 2010

76.66.193.119 (talk) 04:43, 30 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Someone deprodded them. 76.66.193.119 (talk) 04:17, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Tibetan cultural articles should not be under the label China
I was surprised and disappointed to see that there isn't a Project Tibet on Wikipedia. While we all acknowledge the political and military realities, lumping in Tibetan culture with Chinese is absurd. There is no shared language, or even linguistic roots, and while their cultures have interacted for thousands of years, they are obviously distinct. This is particularly disturbing when reading pages about Tibetan Buddhism, which is completely distinct from Chinese forms (beyond the usual back and forth that happens between all neighbours). In short, Tibetans are distinct from Chinese ethnically, linguistically, and culturally, and lumping them together is just wrong on many levels. I can expand my argument, but I think the reasoning should be obvious. Has there been no discussion of this anywhere? --Joechip123 (talk) 20:39, 30 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Per the Han are apparently descended from the Tibetans. Sino-Tibetan languages shows false your issue on linguistic unrelatedness. Tibet is part of the country of China. There is a WP:WikiProject Tibet with a banner WikiProject Tibet ... So I don't see what you're problem is. 76.66.193.119 (talk) 21:14, 30 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Your first point is wrong, as ethnicity is typically defined culturally, not genetically. Secondly, Chinese languages are completely unrelated to Tibetan. Tibetan actually falls under the "Tibetan-Burmese" family . Lumping Tibetan in with Chinese makes about as much sense as lumping it together with English, in my opinion. If scholars want to fight about that point, they can knock themselves out. It's probably all just guesswork either way. Thirdly, Tibet has only recently become a part of China, and I'd wager that 100 years from now, it won't be a part of China anymore (of course, making bets that expire long after I will is easy).
 * However, I do apologize for missing that there is a Project Tibet - I had found several articles on Tibetan Buddhist topics that are listed under Project China, so I incorrectly assumed that we didn't have one for Tibet. I will try to get the articles moved to the appropriate project. Thanks for pointing this out. --Joechip123 (talk) 05:59, 31 July 2010 (UTC)


 * No, ethnicity is frequently defined genetically/by blood, as well as by culture (hence racism based on blood and racism based on activities). Secondly, at the moment, Tibet is part of China, so a WPCHINA banner is not inappropriate to tag Tibetan articles that would fall inside the territory controlled by China (or ever controlled by China in the past, dealing with incidents from that time and before). (thus why WikiProject Michigan is fine for the American Indian articles about peoples from 2000 years ago, if they lived in Michigan) That would comprise the history of the area, which is currently China. Though religion articles should go under WP:WikiProject Buddhism. Some country WikiProjects claim all articles about anything within the country and try to tag every article (ie. WikiProject Canada tags everything to do with Canada), some country WikiProjects will not tag any article that already is tagged by a subnational unit like a province (ie. WikiProject United States does not tag something tagged by WikiProject Michigan)
 * Though, you'd run into a tonne of arguments tagging stuff that has a WikiProject Taiwan with a WikiProject China, so I guess WPCHINA works like WPUSA and not WPCANADA, though the only subnational entities with WikiProjects are WikiProject Hong Kong, WikiProject Macau, Taiwan, and Tibet... though WPCHINA is missing a tag/taskforce/project for the PRC
 * There is also a WP:WikiProject Tibetan Buddhism with a banner WikiProject Tibetan Buddhism
 * 76.66.193.119 (talk) 07:51, 31 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You also might be interested in WikiProject Council/Proposals/East Asia . 76.66.193.119 (talk) 05:06, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Copyright concerns related to your project
This notice is to advise interested editors that a Contributor copyright investigation has been opened which may impact this project. Such investigations are launched when contributors have been found to have placed copyrighted content on Wikipedia on multiple occasions. It may result in the deletion of images or text and possibly articles in accordance with Copyright violations. The specific investigation which may impact this project is located here.

All contributors with no history of copyright problems are welcome to contribute to CCI clean up. There are instructions for participating on that page. Additional information may be requested from the user who placed this notice, at the process board talkpage, or from an active CCI clerk. Thank you. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 01:18, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Reference desk question
I am hoping there is a person on here that can provide feedback on a question I left on the language reference desk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#Chinese_coiffure_or_turban

--Ghostexorcist (talk) 13:07, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Puyi
I am going through the hard-copy autobiography of Puyi, in order to add references and clarity to the Wikipedia article on him. Specifically on this section Puyi I am snagged on names of Puyi's brothers and sisters, which Puyi himself spelled differently than we have in Wikipedia. He states that his father 2nd Prince Chun had four sons and seven daughters. In the front of the book is a chart "The Pedigree of the Ching House". These would be the four sons and seven daughters in order as they are listed:


 * Pu yi
 * Pu Chieh is Pujie
 * Pu Chi
 * Pu Jen whom I believe is Jin Youzhi
 * Yun Ying
 * Yun Ho
 * Yun Ing
 * Yun Hsien
 * Yun Hsing
 * Yun Yu
 * Yun Huan

How do I list these names on the Puyi Family section and make them coordinated with how the names are spelled there?

Maile66 (talk) 21:33, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikisource A Chinese Biographical Dictionary
I'm proofreading the text of A Chinese Biographical Dictionary by Herbert A. Giles (1898), which is in the public domain, on Wikisource. (see A Chinese Biographical Dictionary). Because it's pretty long (2,579 entries), I would appreciate help going through it, proofreading and creating pages for the individual articles. Many of the articles can also usefully be transferred here as stubs for notable Chinese people. Rigadoun (talk) 16:39, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Yujiulü Anluochen


The article Yujiulü Anluochen has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * Everything in this article is in Rouran Khaganate, unreferenced article without unique content

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing  will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Jeepday (talk) 13:18, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Yujiulü Kangti


The article Yujiulü Kangti has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * Everything in this article is in Rouran Khaganate, unreferenced article without unique content

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing  will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Jeepday (talk) 13:18, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Yujiulü Tiefa


The article Yujiulü Tiefa has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * Everything in this article is in Rouran Khaganate, unreferenced article without unique content

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing  will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Jeepday (talk) 13:18, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Yujiulü Anagui


The article Yujiulü Anagui has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * Everything in this article is in Rouran Khaganate, unreferenced article without unique content

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing  will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Jeepday (talk) 13:18, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Kangxi Radicals
We should have articles on all of these, just as we have articles on the letters of the alphabet. Let's do it! bd2412 T 00:58, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if that's such a good idea. Most radicals will have only stubs, such as radical 7. There's nothing in that article that couldn't easily be added to the table at List of Kangxi radicals. Of course, that system was a great invention and it's still used in many books, but that doesn't mean we need to emulate it here. That classification is largely arbitrary; many "radicals" are not really roots, such as 立 and 見, and many characters are not in an etymological or meaningful sense connected with their radicals (such as 旅 under 方). It would be more meaningful to go to the real roots of characters, as e.g. Léon Wieger does, who arranges his "usual groups" into 176 "etymological lessons". (I know, many people consider him outdated, but that only strengthens my point that we nowadays have more appropriate systems for our purpose at hand.) &mdash; Sebastian 19:52, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, it certainly would be better to follow more current scholars (Boltz is a thorough scholar who writes in English) than Wieger for analysis of the formation of Chinese characters. The key for whatever someone does about this is finding reliable sources, which is not always easy to do for this topic, in English or in Chinese. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 16:31, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Turpan/Turfan
There is a dispute over the naming of this article. Please see Talk:Turfan and offer input if you can. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 19:03, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Please see discussion of renaming article now called Standard Mandarin to another article name.
Another editor kindly suggested that discussion of the name of the article Standard Mandarin should be referred to this project page as well as to the article talk page and the  Naming conventions (Chinese) pages where it has already been discussed for a while. What reference sources do you know for the name of that language in English? -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 16:22, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

English language information sources
I am currently in the process of trying to generate lists of information sources in English directly relevant to the various WikiProjects out there. Right now, I have found at least a few related to China, most of which are general information or news sources. If the members would want me to continue finding these sources for this Project while I continue to find them for groups in general, please indicate as much to me.

John Carter (talk) 00:19, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Beijing Review
 * Beijing This Month
 * CCTV News
 * China Daily
 * China Digital Times
 * China.org.cn
 * China Now Magazine
 * The China Perspective
 * China Radio International
 * [www.cs.com.cn/english/ China Securities Journal]
 * China Today
 * ChinaOnTV
 * Eastday.com
 * Economic Observer News
 * Jongo News
 * People's Daily Online
 * China Military Online
 * Shanghai Daily
 * Shanghai Star
 * Shenzhen Daily
 * Sinofile
 * South China Morning Post
 * Xinhua News Agency

Legalist vs. legalist
Any views on this would be appreciated. Thanks. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:02, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Reading of a name
For List of National Treasures of Japan (writings), I am looking for the reading of 張即之, who was a calligrapher of the Song Dynasty. Thanks for any suggestions? bamse (talk) 23:26, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Zhang Jizhi, most likely. _dk (talk) 03:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you. bamse (talk) 09:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Roulingzhi
Are there any Chinese speakers out there that are competent with scientific articles and journals, and would like to take a look at Roulingzhi? Is someone able to obtain peer-reviewed scientific journals from Chinese universities? (the article in question has an AfD here: Articles for deletion/Meat ganoderma) --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 08:52, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

alot of emperors are being renamed
FYI, a bunch of emperors are being renamed, see Talk:Emperor Taizu of Later Liang.

76.66.197.151 (talk) 10:53, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Cantonese as of 2010
I found a source about this: WhisperToMe (talk) 15:39, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Ewing, Kent. "Cantonese cultural warriors fight back." Asia Times. August 4, 2010.


 * Perhaps it's time for WP:CHINA/taskforces/Cantonese or WP:CHINA/workgroups/Pearl River Delta 70.29.210.72 (talk) 02:04, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with a Guangzhou Province /Pearl Delta task force WhisperToMe (talk) 02:39, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Xiren (character)
Can someone look at Xiren (character), and perhaps write about what this is about, since there is no clue as to which Xiren this is supposed to be about. 70.29.210.72 (talk) 02:04, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I think she's a character from Dream of the Red Chamber, that's all I can gather though... _dk (talk) 10:28, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Reference request
If there is someone who can read Chinese (no idea on the dialect, but I don't know if that matters...) I need a review of the sources in this page version if possible. They look a lot like popular websites, and therefore not reliable sources for the page in question. There are at least two blogs, which doesn't give me much hope. Thanks, WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/complex 08:48, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Bing (province)
I'd appreciate any knowledgeable help on this subject. The historical province has always been one of the more frequent links to the disambiguation page at Bing, because there was nowhere to send it from there. An IP recently posted on Talk:Bing lamenting that Bing (province) was a redlink, and my understanding is that Bing is just the former name of what is now Shanxi, so I created a redirect to that article. The IP disputes that they are the same, and my knowledge of the matter does not extend to anything not included in this paragraph, so I would love to see a more informed opinion. Better yet, if anyone is capable of writing a stub, that would fix things regardless. Thanks for any help you can give. — Gavia immer (talk) 05:09, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


 * according to zh:并州, what used to be Bing seems to be part of both Shanxi and Hebei now. If I read that correctly, anyway. Yaan (talk) 14:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia already has a category for former provinces of China. I have made Bing (province) a stub in that category.  69.3.72.249 (talk) 23:30, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

List of townships of Anhui
Hi, I've begun drawing up lists but as google translate is poor I'm adding them in Chinese. Can you please help translate them? I hope eventually to have a full list of townships by province. Dr.  Blofeld  16:09, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Did you check out the List of administrative divisions of Anhui? As far as I can tell, the townships are already listed in each district page, see, for example Luyang District. If you want to add wikilinks to all these non-existing pages (for later creation), you could work with the existing district pages and just wikify them. What is the added value of another list on township level? -- Shenhemu (talk) 03:03, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period rulers article titles
Please discuss what your thoughts are on them at Talk:Emperor Taizu of Later Liang. Right now, we have a single person responding to my proposal in a rather unhelpful manner (objecting to it while not providing any kind of a consistent alternative). Whether you agree with me or not, I'd like to hear your thoughts, because this really deserves more attention than it is getting. --Nlu (talk) 22:32, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Hmong Wikipedia proposal
I'm trying to see if a Hmong Wikipedia could be started. The Hmong people largely originated from China in history.

The proposal is at: WhisperToMe (talk) 07:34, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * meta:Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Hmong
 * A list of possible starter articles is at meta:User:WhisperToMe/ArticlestostartHmongWikipediawith

Pekingese
I've noticed that Pekingese is very bare of information about China, even though it is a Chinese construct. 76.66.200.95 (talk) 05:06, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Afd on "ni hao"
FYI, has been nominated for deletion. 76.66.200.95 (talk) 06:38, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Verifying an article
Anybody could verify an article called Giog? It says it's a variant of Xiangqi. I'm slightly skeptical about this. Giog doesn't show anything relevant on the search engines. Thanks. Komitsuki (talk) 05:31, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It seems to be mentioned in this book:, , at least according to the blurb, though the book is newer so can't be the source. According to the main contributor's talk page there were one or more images to go with it, but they've were deleted.-- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 09:48, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Tourist attractions of Beijing
FYI Tourist attractions of Beijing has been nominated for deletion. 76.66.200.95 (talk) 05:31, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Commandery
FYI, Commandery has been requested to be renamed. 76.66.200.95 (talk) 03:04, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Major proposed overhaul of Sea of Japan naming dispute
The article Sea of Japan naming dispute has been under full protection for about 1 month due to an edit war that occurred in August. Discussion on the talk page stalled at the end of August, and there are not many active participants on that page. Since that time, I have been working on a wholly new draft to fix, as best as I could, many of the numerous problems on the article. Since this article falls within the purview of this Wikiproject, I am inviting members to come participate in the discussion on the talk page at Sea of Japan naming dispute, which explains the current articles deficiencies (poor sources, disorganized, etc.) and what I have done to fix them. In that section you will find a link to the draft version in my user space. While this article and its subject are clearly a contentious matter, I sincerely believe that we can create a useful and NPOV article about the subject through the careful involvement of more editors. Thank you for any help you can provide. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:34, 28 September 2010 (UTC)