Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Doctor Who/Archive 10

This archive page covers approximately the dates between 23 October and 30 December 2006.

Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.

Doctorwhocharacter template
I've changed the heading on Doctorwhocharacter to read Whoniverse character instead of "Doctor Who character" since we're dealing with a wider field now. Do discuss if there are any problems with this. As an addendum, do we want to change Doctorwhorace as well? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 12:50, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Can the Doctorwhorace be changed as well, as there is already an article for the weevil? &mdash; AnemoneProj e ctors (talk) 13:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Done, although now comes the tricky part of whether not to rename Category:Doctor Who races, which may entail lots of editing... --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 13:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * What about putting Category:Doctor Who races in a category called Category:Whoniverse races and putting the weevils in that? It would save recategorising all the races, maybe create a Torchwood races category too? I don't know! &mdash; AnemoneProj e ctors (talk) 13:58, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If you go through WP:CFD, won't a bot do the hard work for you? Percy Snoodle 14:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, use CfR. Also, List of Doctor Who monsters and aliens to List of Whoniverse monsters and aliens? Since there are already a lot of redirects to take us to the former, should we ensure that List of Doctor Who monsters, List of Doctor Who races and List of Doctor Who aliens (all redirects) also link there?~ZytheTalk to me! 14:18, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd rather not name it Whoniverse monsters and aliens as that would exacerbate the bloat problem. We can always start a List of Torchwood monsters and aliens if it comes down to it, eventually (or not - right now we can just have the individual monsters mentioned within the episode articles, with the exception of recurring ones like the Weevils). Renaming Category:Doctor Who races to Category:Whoniverse races via a bot sounds like a better option. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 14:21, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't it be better to keep the words Doctor Who character and create a seperate template for torchwood characters. There is only one char which will be a problem - Jack Harkness? I really dislike the term Whoniverse to be frank. Tim! 11:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I merely dislike the proliferation of templates where it isn't necessary. Then there's Benny, and Jason Kane, and Irving Braxiatel... --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 11:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * They've all been in Doctor Who proper ;) Anyway it should be possible to put in a field to display whatever we want the header Tim! 11:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Whoniverse is too geeky a term for a template header, lihe Earth-616 and the like. If you change the template to customise the header on the page itself you could have Doctor Who character as default, and also the ability to modify it to Torchwood character or Doctor Who/Torchwood character in the case of Captain Jack. --Jamdav86 09:01, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Hm. This might actually be workable. Any other thoughts on this? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 09:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I really like this idea too it seems to be the best suggestion so far. Eventually we will have to have the ability to have Sarah Jane Adventures character too. But what about K-9 Adventures? We don't even know if this will be set in the Whoniverse yet. --GracieLizzie 22:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I added a param 'series', but have only tested it briefly on Doctor and Gwen Cooper and it seems to work, haven't got time to more thoroughly test it though sorry. If it breaks anythign seriously, revert and i'll fix it when i'm back off holiday Tim! 11:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I foresee a problem when dealing with people that straddle several series, like Benny, Jason, Brax, etc. --22:28, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Seeing as how Torchwood etc are all derived from Doctor Who (the television programme) and Whoniverse is fan reference more than an outside reference I would keep Doctor Who in the Category and template names and make the distinction as necessary within articles and infoboxes if the item in question is actually from a book or programme other than DW on TV. GraemeLeggett 10:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Category:Lost BBC episodes
I've just been having a look at, and it seems to me that  (or ) would be a useful subcategory for it and for. I'd have gone ahead and made one straight off, but thought I'd defer to people involved in the articles in question here. The naming's a bit tricky though - my first suggestion is in line with the Featured Article, but the second is more in line with the poarent category. Any thoughts? Grutness...wha?  00:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If there's no adverse comments in the next couple of days I'll go ahead with it, using the first name. Grutness...wha?  23:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea and I've been thinking it's been needed for quite some time. I can't decide between the names though. The first fits our article, but the second fits the category. I guess it's up to you. -Jonathan D. Parshall 05:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Done, and populated. It took almost half of the articles that were in ! Grutness...wha?  08:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Whoniverse rather than Doctor Who
I think character articles should be entitled Doctor (Whoniverse), Master (Whoniverse) etc., as "Doctor Who" and "Torchwood" are used in episode titles. In Stargate articles, "Stargate" is used for characters and races whilst "Stargate SG-1" and "Stargate Atlantis" are used for episodes.--Codenamecuckoo 10:23, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The Master and the Doctor only appear in Doctor Who and not Torchwood, your suggested disambiguation could be confusing. Tim! 11:20, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Tim. &mdash; AnemoneProj e ctors (talk) 17:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

And Whoniverse is a geeky term. --Jamdav86 16:46, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it's used in the Infoboxes.--Codenamecuckoo 19:47, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * In my opinion so is Buffyverse. But anyway I prefer (Doctor Who) and (Torchwood) to (Whoniverse) because Doctor Who and Torchwood are both more well known than Whoniverse (although Whoniverse isn't obscure in the fandom, it is to outsiders). When their is something that requires a disambiguation bracket in it's article title then the parent show of the the subject of the article should be used e.g. K-9 (Doctor Who) rather than K-9 (K-9 and Company) (though will the K-9 of K-9 Adventures get his own article? He looks to be a completely different K-9 altogether). --GracieLizzie 19:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not mad about the use of "Whoniverse" in the infoboxes, frankly. Is "Doctor Who universe" too wordy?  "Whoniverse" just doesn't sound very encyclopedic to me. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

See my comments in the above section. --Jamdav86 20:17, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Cardiff spacetime rift
I think we should create an article for this as there is a lot of information for it and the amount is growing. It is also key for understanding concepts in Torchwood - simply linking to The Unquiet Dead, which I have not seen (I'm only a 10th Doctor+ fan!) doesn't explain anything. There are plenty of references and bits of information on http://www.torchwood.org.uk to flesh out the article, which should be comparable (and likely better than!) Hellmouth (Buffyverse) and Nexus (Charmed). My only problem is I would have no idea where to start when it comes to writing it. Any help, ideas, suggestions? ~ZytheTalk to me! 23:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh definately, as you say the Rift is to Torchwood as the Hellmouth is to Buffy, it is compareable to things like the Ghost Zone of Danny Phantom and other such fictional concept as being a driving force for the presence of of aliens and such in the series (though not all come from there of course, the Weevils do, the Sex Monster didn't). Does it have an official name? That is the best place to start. --GracieLizzie 23:50, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It's been called "spatio-temporal rift" and "spacetime rift" I believe. They mean the same thing, the second one seems better because it describes what could be a rift in spacetime itself. I can so far think of

The spacetime rift is a fictional in Doctor Who and Torchwood and their fictional universe, the Whoniverse. It is located in Cardiff, Wales...
 * And I figure later on in the article you could describe what it does (Unquiet Dead, Boom Town, Weevils) and then what the website says about it (there's a section on it) and even further on it compare it to similar plot devices in other fiction.~ZytheTalk to me! 00:08, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer spacetime rift (Whoniverse) to Cardiff spacetime rift, as it establishes out-of-universeness more clearly (plus, spacetime rifts occur in quite a few other media). La  ï  ka  13:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * In fact, simply The Rift (Whoniverse), since that seems to be the term prefered by the various offical websites. La  ï  ka  16:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it might require the spacetime bit. It's the proper name for it. What's a rift? But it it's decided against, then no "The", otherwise it would be The Nexus, The Hellmouth etc. The only reason I suggested Cardiff spacetime rift was there is no article for "spacetime rift" so it would be silly (and possibly against wikipedia policy) to put the disambiguation of "(Whoniverse)" at the end. ~ZytheTalk to me!
 * I'd be quite happy to lose the The, but I'm not so keen on spacetime rift or Cardiff spacetime rift; as the rift is often simply called The Rift, adding spacetime or Cardiff spacetime seems a tad arbitrary. Anyway, I've created the article, but it can be moved to a different title if people agree to. La  ï  ka  18:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I am not fond of the (Whoniverse) bit, I'd prefer (Doctor Who) or (Torchwood). The question is which to use? Doctor Who is the Rift's parent show but it is more important to the plot of Torchwood being the major driving force behind the show. For that reason I'd actually like to put in a vote for moving the article to Cardiff spacetime rift or Cardiff Rift as it solves this problem. --GracieLizzie 20:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Especially since there are other rifts and "time fissures" in the Whoniverse.~ZytheTalk to me! 23:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Honestly, off the top of my head I can't think of any other things in Doctor Who that are actually called "the Rift" as well. And even if there are, there's no reason not to stick them in the same article. A simple paragraph saying that there are other rifts, but "the" Rift commonly refers to the Cardiff rift would suffice. The rest can be redirects. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 23:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It could be an editor's fault/original research but the articles on The Unquiet Dead and Image of the Fendahl imply that a time fissure and time rift in the show are the same thing. Would be worth noting it in the article anyway. ~ZytheTalk to me! 23:56, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying that there aren't any other time fissures, cracks, whatever in the rest of Doctor Who, merely none that are given the precise formal name the "Rift" (uppwercase). The comparison between the time fissure in IOTF and the Rift in TUD is merely to note the precedent that growing up near such a fissure will give you psychic abilities, not necessarily that they are the same thing (at best, merely similar phenomena). --01:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Torchwood Minor characters/villains/whatever
I suggest creating an article for all or most of the minor characters in the series eg Suzie Costello, the Cyberwoman, etc--SGCommand (talk • contribs) 12:46, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Created List of Torchwood villains.~Zythe</b>Talk to me! 14:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I created List of Torchwood supporting characters, before I saw this discussion but also before List of Torchwood villains was created. I didn't know what to call the page so I named it after the Doctor Who page. It's got Suzie and Rhys on it. &mdash; AnemoneProj e ctors (talk) 14:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay we really need to discuss who to add and where, Suzie is on both pages and I feel she should only be on one. Also when is a person too significant for these minor character pages, and is their a time when their too insignificant for even those? I've added PC Andy to the supporting characters page because as a two episode character he struck me as significant enough to be written about but too insignificant for his own article. However I'd like to raise the question of one-episode protagonists and antagonists - Suzie should stay but what about Carys, Ed Morgan, Burnie? Perhaps we should include them but then we could end up with people like "Little Girl on Trampoline", and "Tom Flanagan's Daughter" being added which we don't want. --GracieLizzie 21:20, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I think perhaps any villains who aren't monsters or aliens should be listed as supporting characters, maybe? Or maybe all the aliens, monsters, villains and other characters could go on one page because it's not going to get anywhere near as big as the Doctor Who lists. &mdash; AnemoneProj e ctors (talk) 22:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Since Torchwood is about both "human and alien crime", Ed Morgan should be included in villains, with references to "petty thief Burnie Harris" etc. ~<b style="color:purple;">Zythe</b>Talk to me! 23:41, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Trivia problems on Doctor Who episode articles
WP:TRIVIA and Avoid trivia sections in articles explains it best, but I will say a few things about it as well. Either trim the trivia sections, put notable things in the article or remove the trivia section itself. This doesn't just apply to sections named trivia, it applies to "notes" sections as well. If it's a long list of random notes: it's probably a trivia section. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a guide to trivia, and not a guide to every little note. RobJ1981 19:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I posted a response to your comment on the Trivia Project page, but I'll restate it here - some of us agree, to a point, and have been working on this. Your tone comes across as a bit bossy, but I'll assume good faith. In any event, there's been lots of discussion about it - see here, for example. --Brian Olsen 21:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Just change it from "Trivia" into ==Casting==, ==Continuity== and possibly ==Music== or whatever else is necessary. No big deal. ~<b style="color:purple;">Zythe</b>Talk to me! 02:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * And that's been started on the original series (see The Daleks for the best example), but it does seem to have stalled lately. (I haven't had much time to work on it myself.) --Brian Olsen 15:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

To see how the sections can be split up and the "Trivia" term gone altogether, see The Idiot's Lantern. One might argue that this merely disguises the problem, but at least we have some kind of context rather than a conglomeration of facts. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 06:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Doctor Who ships
Opinions on this? I'm not sure that there are any established ships that are notable enough to warrant this kind of article (unlike other science fiction series). Am I being overly paranoid in sniffing AfD fodder? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 00:51, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure. Perhaps if cited information about the creation and design of the ship models could be provided, that might help in providing an out-of-universe perspective — a few designs, like the Jagaroth ship in City of Death, might be notable by science-fiction design criteria, and I think I've seen comments from folks like Mat Irvine about building props like these.  It's true that Doctor Who has never been as focused on the technical aspects of spaceships in the way that the Star Trek series have (look at all the sub-articles at List of Star Trek ships!), but a few of the designs might be noteworthy. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Star Trek is a different kettle of fish; as in every incarnation of Trek, spaceships form an enormous part of every story and often as important (and, occasionally, more important) than the human(oid) characters in the story. As for the Doctor Who ships list, well, I'm not sure that there's much there that wouldn't be found in the List of Doctor Who items anyway. But Josiah has a point - the Jagoroth ship (and perhaps a couple of others) are indeed interesting enough to be noticed. - NP Chilla 16:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * We should have a look at the ships in the list to see what's important and what's not. If there are too few to warrant the artcle, AfD it and turn the few items into separate articles; otherwise, just trim the list down. --JB Adder | Talk 06:50, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Big Finish Short Trips and the Short Trips Themselves.
Ebyabe and me created the corresponding articles as A Day in the Life, 2040, &c, but what I was wondering is: what do we do about the short-stories themselves? Quite frankly, if the editor(s) actually read them, I do feel that they can be their own individual article as much right as anything listed along Category:Science fiction stories. This would also be awfully handy in creating an article for the Other Doctors article (i.e. for the Unbound). DrWho42 06:01, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm... I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand, it might be nice for completeness' sake, but on the other hand I really wonder whether Doctor Who short stories are anything near as notable as, say, "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream" or "Nightfall".  I'm not sure what the notability criteria for short stories are.  Anybody know? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

English cultural icon?
Should we mention this somewhere? Even though it's a bit odd, given that two of its three co-creators were Canadian and Scottish respectively; its first writer and theme tune composer were both Australians; its first director was Indian; the creator of its most popular icon was a Welshman, and the show is now made in Wales, predominantly by Welsh persons. Angmering 07:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It should probably be mentioned in the main Doctor Who article, either in the lead or under "Public consciousness". A link to the ICONS page would probably be nice in the "external links" section, too — even if the site gets the name of the first episode wrong and seems to think that Mickey is still travelling with the Doctor... —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It's already under the category of "British cultural icons", and indeed one of the reasons cited by RTD for its success abroad is its "Britishness". Perhaps we should just let it be British - after all, we wouldn't want to upset the lovely Welsh dudes who run the show... would we? - NP Chilla 10:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The British cultural icons category was deleted some time back. Tim! 07:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh. So it has. Didn't know that. Thanks. - NP Chilla 12:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Question re: style guide
Hello... nice work on this project. One question though - I'm just curious as to why episode titles don't follow the established guidelines under WP:MOS-T. By that convention, episode titles should be in "quotes" rather than italicised. The DW style guide calls for the opposite. Thanks! --Ckatz <sup style="color:green;">chat <sub style="color:red;">spy  01:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I wondered the same thing, and everything was explained to me at Talk:Torchwood. &mdash; AnemoneProj e ctors (talk) 01:20, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe that the original reasoning was that in the format of the classic series of Doctor Who, each story would be a multi-episode serial, and so was appropriately treated as a long-form work. For the first several years of the series, each episode had its own title as well — for example, the first episode of The Dalek Invasion of Earth was "World's End".  The italics/quotation mark distinction was useful for referring to those early years.


 * When the new series came along, a decision was made to continue the italicization, even though the new series' format was mostly single-episode stories with the occasional two-parter — it was decided that it would be too weird to say The Dalek Invasion of Earth but "The Parting of the Ways". That said, I'm increasingly of the opinion that the original decision was a mistake, and all Doctor Who episode and story titles should probably be in quotation marks, per the general MoS guideline.  However, the business of changing every reference to a Doctor Who serial or episode is a massive and daunting prospect, and I don't know whether the gains would be worth the pains. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:05, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Part of the reasoning was also to keep in line with the usage throughout licensed Doctor Who products, like Doctor Who Magazine and the various reference books, which all have the story titles in italics. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 18:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Have you chosen a name yet?
Whoipedia – how about that? Joker1138
 * Drop the I Who-pedia xD An Apple a day keeps -The Doctor-  Away.. Or does it! (talk)(contribs) 18:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Pardon? What do we need a name for? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

i have no idea but how bouts wikitardis --Madcow 93 23:59, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * This discussion makes no sense. --Jamdav86 17:03, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Section headers for episode articles
This conversation began on the talk page for Rose, and I thought we should move it here to get some more input. There's been an effort to move items away from the Trivia section into the actual body of the episode articles, and the debate is over what the names should be for the various article sections, and what order they should be in, with the goal of adding them to the Project page style guide. This would apply to both the classic and new series.

Here's a list of the most common section headers that have been used so far - items on the same "bullet" are alternate titles for essentially the same type of section.


 * Synopsis
 * Plot
 * Cast (with a subheading of "Cast notes")
 * Continuity
 * Outside references; Popular culture allusions
 * Historical details
 * Production
 * Alternative titles
 * Music
 * Broadcast; Broadcast and releases; DVD and video release; Ratings and DVD release
 * In print
 * Trivia

In addition, there are "as needed" sections for topics appropriate for a particular episode or serial - for example, Susan's telepathy or Parallel universes in Doctor Who.

The list above is my proposed order for the sections - it's not quite what I've been doing, but it incorporates somewhat the order Khaosworks has been using. "Plot" is the first main section - after that would come the cast (and any cast notes), then other sections that are somewhat "in universe" - continuity issues (including references to other Who stories); notable non-Who or popular culture reference; and historical details (for any shows set in Earth's past). After that comes the out-of-universe sections - the production of the episode; alternative or working titles used (mostly relevant for the classic series); music; the actual transmission of the episode (including ratings, and any home-video releases); novelizations; and finally the (hopefully much smaller) trivia section. Any additional episode specific sections could be slotted in wherever appropriate.

Any thoughts on the order? Any thoughts on the naming of sections? Should "outside references" and "popular culture allusions" remain two distinct sections, or is there a better all-encompassing name? And should the section on broadcast and releases be split up - perhaps into "Broadcast and ratings" and "DVD and video release", or is there one name to include all of it that doesn't sound horribly awkward?

Sorry for the epic post - I just wanted to lay everything out in a (hopefully) clear and thorough manner. --Brian Olsen 19:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I prefer "Broadcast and releases" to the others, I am not sure about "Outside references"/"Popular culture allusions" though. --GracieLizzie 19:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Aaaaaaaand...nobody else cares. I'm going to go ahead and start making some changes to the episode pages based on this, then, but I won't make a change to the style guide without some more discussion. And anything I change can always be changed back if people don't like it... --Brian Olsen 23:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

City of Death = finished!!
I've (finally!!) finsihed the Plot section of City of Death - if I'm not mistaken, does that mean that every single TV story now has an adequite Plot section? - NP Chilla 01:10, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No hang on, I'm wrong - The Robots of Death is still not done. I'll get onto it. - NP Chilla 12:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Torchwood Villains - Part 2
In light of the discussion on the Minor Characters talk page I propose that a "List of Torchwood Human Villains" and "List of Torchwood alien villains" be included--SGCommand (talk • contribs) 15:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know, because the series is still a fledgling, having two pages for characters based on humanity (or lack thereof) seems a little extreme. Two sections in the same article I understand, but not two pages. What does everyone else think? --JB Adder | Talk 23:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree - seems a bit early for that, they'd be two very small pages. --Brian Olsen 01:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No, and I would like to see cannibal villagers not in the monsters article... since that's an improper place for human characters which are technically being categorised as "villain races" and "doctor who races".
 * In answer to the first suggestion: No, I don't think it would be a good idea at this time as the List of Torchwood minor characters article was merged from List of Torchwood villains and List of Torchwood secondary characters in the first place because there was too little information to justify the two articles. Doing this would just cause the same problem all over again.
 * On the second matter I also disagree, as Khaos said in the Edit summary of the "Monsters" page - why can't humans be monsters? In fact one of the definitions of monster on wiktionary is:
 * "An extremely antisocial person, especially a criminal."
 * Wiktionary is not the only dictionary that contains such a definition Dictionary.com definitions for monster include:
 * "3. any animal or human grotesquely deviating from the normal shape, behavior, or character. 4. a person who excites horror by wickedness, cruelty, etc." (Dictionary.com Unabridged) "One who inspires horror or disgust: a monster of selfishness" (American Heritage Dictionary) "a cruel wicked and inhuman person" (WordNet)
 * Which would describe the cannibals very well. --GracieLizzie 00:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Consensus
I've observed that there was a very small trend of reverting between "Doctor Who race" and "Whoniverse race" on the Doctorwhorace template. The arguments I've observed are "it's not just Doctor Who" and "there is no consensus to use a neologism". However, to counter both points, some characters are just Doctor Who (at least for now) and Whoniverse has been a well used term for a long time, and is comparable to Buffyverse. Should we attempt to find a consensus on the use of this term in templates? "Doctor Who and Torchwood" or "Doctor Who and spin-offs" are a bit long, and just "Doctor Who" can frequently be innacurate. Vote? ~<b style="color:purple;">Zythe</b>Talk to me! 14:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Whoniverse is a fan term, keep it to fannish encyclopaedias. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 14:45, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * And "Buffyverse" isn't a fan term? It seems clear and practical enough to me -- with practicality being the biggest concern. Anyone who's reading a Doctor Who encyclopedia on the Internet should be able to decipher from context what "Whoniverse" means. --71.139.9.136 00:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The situation has been resolved for the moment on the templates with the "series" field. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 15:03, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

CFD notice
Removed cfdnotice, cfd has completed. --Kbdank71 15:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Pretty reasonable request to restrict the category to regulars, would be good if we contribute to this. Tim! 19:58, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Question - why is the a whole table in the category text turning it into a "list of... " as well as a category? GraemeLeggett 09:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Stablepedia
Beginning cross-post.
 * See Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team. If you wish to comment, please comment there. ★ MESSED  ROCKER ★  23:25, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

''End cross-post. Please do not comment more in this section.''

Dalek
Dalek is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy (Talk) 15:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

New Tooth and Claw related pages
Jacd has created pages for Hooded man, Robert MacLeish, and Father Angelo - should these be deleted or changed to redirects to Tooth and Claw? Hooded man certainly seems too vague to be a redirect. --Brian Olsen 20:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Tooth and Claw and Hood respectively. Use db if they are unredirected? ~<b style="color:purple;">Zythe</b>Talk to me! 21:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Whoniverse characters (again)
Okay, the last time the conversation kind of petered out and I thought that Tim and I had come to a modus vivendi about the Doctorwhocharacter template, i.e. with the addition of the "series" parameter we could substitute whatever term we could use. Hence, we could have "Whoniverse character" for characters that straddle several series, like Sarah Jane Smith, Bernice Summerfield, Irving Braxiatel, et al. Now, is reverting that for Sarah's article. Can we try to come to a decision as to what's appropriate for these kinds of characters? --09:24, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * "Doctor Who universe" may just be appropriate at a stretch; Your average reader will not know what a "Whoniverse" is unless they take the time to do a little research, secondly it is a fanish word, thirdly there is no T.V show called "Whoniverse" (nor is there one called "Doctor Who universe" - but still it is much better than "Whoniverse") - Fourthly an abbreviation may be appropriate (again.. at a stretch.. i.e. "Doctor Who/TSJA") thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 09:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm also not fond of the term "Whoniverse". I don't like the abbrevation idea either, but Doctor Who Universe character sounds OK to me. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 09:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * In that case, someone needs to file a CFD to move the category from "Whoniverse characters" to "Doctor Who Universe characters". --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 01:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Trivia versus Notes sections
Just a quick note to all you wikipedians who are taking care of the Doctor Who pages User:NP Chilla is going through each show abd changing the notes section into a trivia section. My understanding is that wikipedia is trying to move away from trivia headers and incorporating this info into the body of the article. This is hard to do on the Dr Who pages and so I assumed that naming them notes, continuity etc was a compromise. If I am wrong about this than pardon my taking up your time, but, if this is the case, I am posting this to try and save both Chilla and whoever will have to go and revert all of the pages back some work. Thanks for your attention. MarnetteD | Talk 22:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, NP Chilla is correct - there was a previous discussion about this very topic, and the consensus seemed to be to change "Notes" to "Trivia," as it's more accurate ("Notes" on Wikipedia generally referring to references and/or footnotes). You are correct, however, that the goal is then to try and reduce said "Trivia" sections as much as possible, deleting the truly trivial and moving the rest into main sections of the articles. --Brian Olsen 22:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks you for the note Brian Olsen. My mistake and I will go and change back the ones I reverted in error. MarnetteD | Talk 22:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Torchwood project
With series 2 now confirmed I've started the Torchwood WikiProject, WP:TORCHWOOD. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 13:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Without wanting to sound like I'm pouring cold water on the idea, do we need a separate Wikiproject for it? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 15:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Why don't we ? We have a WikiProject for Doctor Who, to me it was a temporary measure having it within the 'Who project, and I actually held of beginning a separate project till a 2nd series was confirmed, now it has, the amount of content and the amount of contributors to me makes it project worthy. Also Terence, you can participate in it if you would like to, just because you did not create it does not mean there is some sort of force field preventing you ;-) thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 15:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * No, don't get me wrong — it's not a matter of who's creating what or whether it's "project worthy". And also, I don't think that anyone else really considered Torchwood being in the Who project as a "temporary measure". To my mind, it's a question of duplication of resources since right now we've got identical styles of editing, guidelines, et al. and identical editors to both sets of subjects. It's like saying we need a separate Wikiproject for Stargate SG-1 and Stargate Atlantis, or separate Buffy and Angel Wikiprojects. Which, actually, we don't. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 15:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * WP:BUFFY manages just fine with all its workload. I fail to see how 13 episodes of a show and 13 prospective episodes could create enough work for an entire project which is so firmly intertwined with WP:WHO it might as well be a redirect, since all the characters/themes belong to both.~<b style="color:purple;">Zythe</b>Talk to me! 16:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. 26 out of 700+ episodes isn't going to put any sort of strain on resources, and maintains a consistent approach. I'd wager that most people automatically considered Torchwood to be part of the Who project, much like any of the other related shows, novels, and so on. --Ckatz <sup style="color:green;">chat <sub style="color:red;">spy  17:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I definitely saw Torchwood as being encompassed by the Doctor Who wikiproject in the same way Angel is covered by WikiProject Buffyverse and Stargate SG-1, Stargate Atlantis, Stargate Infinity and the original movie (and the spinoff novels) are all covered by WP:STARGATE too and WikiProject Star Trek covers not only TOS but TNG, DS9, VOY, Enterprise the movies and the non-canon stuff like the novels and the animated series. --GracieLizzie 17:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with everyone else: there's not really any need for a separate Torchwood WikiProject. The two programmes are very closely related, and there hasn't been time for them to develop different fanbases yet.  It seems to me like a needless duplication of effort, and could result in unnecessary conflicts. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

New WikiProject: WikiProject Science Fiction
To give some coherency to the many little sf-oriented communities on Wikipedia.--ragesoss 20:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Doctor Who novels categories
Hello, all. We've just recently started a WikiProject Novels/Short story task force and found that the categories for the Doctor Who books, etc., tend to all fall under the Category:Short stories, which is kind of confusing things for the Short stories group. Our specific intention is to focus on short stories, and the best way to do that is to focus on the Category:Short stories. But when that category contains works which are not short stories, things get confusing. Could any of you possibly see if these categories could be placed in as subcategories elsewhere, and help us get rid of this confusion? Thanks. Badbilltucker 14:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Edits to Whoniverse
It would seem and I are having a disagreement about the Whoniverse article. I don't think he understand how it flows and what the "features" section is supposed to cover. I explained this to him on my talk page but he continues to re-add a poor paragraph which looks out of place and has no merit in the article. Behold.

"The appearance of the "Void Ship" in the final two episodes of the 2006 series also indicated how aggressive species, such as the Daleks, had gained possession of significantly more advanced technology than the TimeLords had been aware of, the Doctor himself remarking that he thought the craft had only ever been a theory, shows the sophistication of some of the alien species confronting Earth. The Torchwood organisation itself is dedicated to the scavenging of alien technology, and the vulnerability of the Earth to invasion has been touched upon several times in the new series, firstly being raised in THe Christmas Invasion."

- Rob77

Opinion or comment, anyone? ~<b style="color:purple;">Zythe</b>Talk to me! 23:58, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I've said my piece on Talk:Whoniverse, for what it's worth. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 02:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Likewise. --Brian Olsen 05:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Episode articles structure
I think we're coming to a more consistent look to breaking up the previous "Notes"/"Trivia" sections into various categories. Can we agree that this particular order of sections be followed to keep the look consistent, i.e. can these amendments be made to the style guide:


 * The general sequence of sections for episode/story articles should be:


 * Lead section: A general description of what the episode/serial is and when it was first broadcast.
 * Synopsis: A teaser Synopsis with no spoiler content.
 * Plot: A more fully detailed Plot with spoiler warning and a single screenshot.
 * Cast: Following on-screen cast list, with the name of the character followed by an em dash (— or &amp;mdash;) followed by the name of the actor
 * Cast notes: Notes regarding casting or cast members.
 * In print: Details of novelisations (including audio books)
 * Continuity: Notes related to in-universe continuity, with subsections if warranted.
 * Production: Production and out-of-universe notes (missing episodes would be a subsection)
 * Music: Notes on music and songs used in the story
 * Outside references: References to things outside of the Doctor Who universe.
 * Broadcast and video (or DVD) releases: Notes on broadcasting, ratings, reactions, and any releases
 * External links: Various external links including links to the various reference sites and reviews from Outpost Gallifrey and the Doctor Who Ratings Guide.


 * Subsections can be added to any main section to organise specific points, if warranted (for example, "Susan's telepathy" or "Parallel universes in Doctor Who").

Unless there are any objections/amendments over the next couple of days, I'll make the amendments as above. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 02:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks good to me. As I said before, I've no strong attachment to the order, I just like it consistent. May I suggest something about additional miscellaneous subsections as needed, if relevent to a particular episode? (My usual examples being Susan's telepathy or Parallel universes in Doctor Who.) --Brian Olsen 05:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's why I noted "subsections if warranted" under "Continuity". On reflection, subsections if warranted could be added to any main section, so I'll add a general note to that effect. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 05:59, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks great to me. I wish I had the time to help out with this, but my Wikipedia time these days is being eaten by a particularly legalistic ArbCom case. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * As an additional modification, on hindsight music probably belongs as a subsection of Production. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 08:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The subsections comment looks good, and I agree about Music as a subsection of Production. I, too, wish I could dive in a bit more, but the outside world stubbornly refuses to acknowledge the time I need to devote to Wikipedia (and when I am here, I spend too much time monitoring the ArbCom case Josiah mentioned). --Brian Olsen 16:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Is there a way we could put "Outside references" without using the word "references"? My concern is that many articles will have a "References" section for footnotes generated by &lt;ref&lt; tags. Also, should that section be mentioned in the style guide? Percy Snoodle 09:16, 22 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, References sections aren't automatically generated: you have to create the section manually and put in the &lt;references/&gt; tag, so as long as we keep naming it "Outside references", there shouldn't be a conflict. But yeah, I'll add a mention of that section. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 09:31, 22 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand; I wasn't referring to a technical conflict, just the awkwardness of using "references" in two ways in the section titles. It's a minor niggle; I was just hoping for another way of saying "Outside references". Percy Snoodle 10:16, 22 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah. I honestly can't think of anything better off-hand, but hey, if someone does come up with one... --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 11:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Lucie Miller
Just a quick note that I've cleaned up the article for upcoming BBC7 audio companion Lucie Miller and added it to the WikiProject. It's still at a rough starting stage, and ready for improvement by people with more info and time than I've got. Rob T Firefly 10:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Help!
Please see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Doctorwhobox#Help_with_another_template — Preceding unsigned comment added by Just The Q (talk • contribs)

Dr Who Monsters and Aliens
I and various other members of the Wikipedia community are incredibly cross that the contents of the monsters and aliens page suffers constant change and needs to be sorted. Below is my list of who should be on the page (in no order); please list your opinions below:
 * Face of Boe
 * Racnoss
 * Sycorax
 * Reapers
 * Slitheen
 * Forest of Cheem
 * Krillitanes
 * Werewolf
 * Ood
 * Sisters of Plenitude
 * Gelth
 * Auton
 * Gas Mask People
 * Zarbi
 * Menoptera
 * Monoids
 * Ice Warriors
 * Fish People
 * Daemon
 * Tractator
 * Sea Devil
 * Silurian
 * Nimon
 * Mandrel
 * Krynoid
 * Zygon
 * Sontaran
 * Exxilons


 * I'm sorry that you're "incredibly cross", but I don't really understand what you're so cross about. Perhaps your concerns would be better addressed at Talk:List of Doctor Who aliens and monsters. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * If you've got nothing nice to say then dont say it.


 * Xdt 23:27, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I didn't mean to be mean — I was honestly confused, and didn't think this page was the best place for the discussion. No need to get your nose out of joint. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:46, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

The Nightmare of Black Island
I've just started writing The Nightmare of Black Island. I haven't got a cover yet, and so (unwilling to get my scanner out) I looked at the DWRG. This cover is different to my cover. The cover on my book has Rose on the right in a padded jacket. My version of the book says it has been reprinted with a different cover. Which do we use on the page? -- Thelb <sup style="color:#FF8247;">4 09:47, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Day Awards
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Template:Firstdoctorcompanions
Any thoughts on this template? You can see it in action on the Susan Foreman article. —Jonathan D. Parshall (Talk | contribs) 19:43, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the work that obviously went into it, and as a big Who-geek and organization-freak it's the sort of thing I personally love, but I'm worried that it's a bit busy for every companion page. What I mean is, do we really need to know, on Susan's article, how long Steven was a companion and in what serials he appeared? And for the casual reader I'm worried it might be a little confusing. Maybe a straight-forward succession box instead? --Brian Olsen 21:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Personally I don't see the need to have it on the companion's page. It would serve more use on the First Doctor's page. --Jamdav86 14:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

How do I become a member?
do i just put me name on the Participants list? --I.W 21:07, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yup! WikiProjects are essentially just collections of editors interested in a particular topic. Declare yourself a member, and you are one! --Brian Olsen 21:30, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Could I Join (sorry if this isn't the correct place) Frog on a log 18:41, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Go ahead. --Jamdav86 14:24, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Horray thx--I.W 15:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

userbox
i noticed that on WP:UBX had this:

Does this WikiProject have one? --I.W 16:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * user WPDoctorWho --Jamdav86 16:41, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Template:Doctor Who - inclusion?

 * Support - Torchwood is linked in the template, and similar pages like K9 and Company have the template, so it should be put here. --Jamdav86 16:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Voting is evil. Can we just talk about it before rampaging towards a poll? For what it's worth, it seems to me rather strange to put the Doctor Who template here since nearly everything on it is not directly relevant to Torchwood. It's like saying that Doctor Who should have the Torchwood template on it as well since it's also linked in the Torchwood template. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 16:11, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Alright then, here's my opinion. If you were to do a loose heirachy, Doctor Who would be the top page. On the second tier would be those articles in Doctor Who, the sub-pages. This includes Torchwood, List of Doctor Who serials etc.. I think that Doctor Who should be on all pages in the first two tiers. Additionally, you have specialised templates, usage of which starts at the second tier, such as Torchwood and Dalek Stories. These would be put on second and third tier articles.
 * Additionally, if Doctor Who was placed on Torchwood, you would not need Torchwood on Doctor Who because you would remove the Doctor Who and Whoniverse links from Torchwood. This system would improve browsing of the Doctor Who articles on Wikipedia. --Jamdav86 16:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * But why relegate Torchwood to second-tier? It may be a spin-off, but its links to Doctor Who are not that obvious, and there are many pages that are under its ambit. Surely the link to the main Doctor Who article in the Torchwood template is sufficient if people want to explore the wider Doctor Who universe. Otherwise, you wind up with a plethora of such templates which may confuse navigation rather than clarify it. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 16:47, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm with Khaosworks on this one - I think having both templates makes things way, way too busy, and the Torchwood template provides plenty of ways to navigate to all-things-Who already. If The Sarah Jane Adventures "sub-universe" ever gets big enough to merit its own template, I would say the Who template should come off of there as well.
 * In thinking about this, though, I took a look at both templates, and the Torchwood box is on some types of pages where we don't use the Who box - on episodes (Tooth and Claw), on characters (Owen Harper), and even on actors (Eve Myles). I imagine this is because Torchwood doesn't yet have as many "main pages" as Doctor Who does, but still, do these pages merit the navigation box? Seems odd for episodes of Doctor Who to have the Torchwood box and not the Who box. --Brian Olsen 17:58, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the two templates shoud not be considered equivalent. The Doctor Who template gives a broad overview of the subject, however the Torchwood tempate seems to be a strange amalgam. It attempts to not only serve as a box for the series Torchwood (e.g. listing the characters) but also for Torchwood relating to Doctor Who, including the Torchwood Institute (e.g. the field containing related Doctor Who episodes). If you were to keep things equivalent across the project, you would need to split the template into Torchwood (similar to Doctor Who), appearences/references to the Torchwood Institute in Doctor Who (similar to UNIT Stories) and characters in the Torchwood series (similar to Doctornav). Additionally, a template for Doctor Who companions, villains etc. may be useful.
 * However, if we eventually decide that Torchwood needs a different setup to the rest of Doctor Who, maybe we will need WP:TORCHWOOD after all.
 * This topic is very far-reaching and deserves the maximum amount of eyes, so I shall move it to WP:WHO. --Jamdav86 20:11, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

And I very much agree with khaosworks - Doctor Who on Torchwood is assinine, every link is pretty much irrelevant to the Torchwood subuniverse. You wanna find out more about the Whoniverse in general? Click Doctor Who and follow the links in its template. If the shows became more interconnected, with Daleks in Torchwood or something, I would suggest we do something akin to Buffyversenav and place it across all.~<b style="color:purple;">Zythe</b>Talk to me! 23:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)