Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Podcasting/Archive 6

Categories
I recently came across a few articles that seem to be largely based on Wikipedia categories for podcasting genres like List of daily news podcasts, List of food podcasts, List of American crime podcasts, and List of Australian crime podcasts. Are these type of lists still standard practice? For instance, if I created articles for the remaining categories would that be acceptable? TipsyElephant (talk) 16:44, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * This is absolutely acceptable; you just have to make sure that the list is providing something useful that meets WP:LISTN (i.e. the list should be something that is covered as a group by reliable sources, or it should provide navigational assistance to readers--there's more criteria in LISTN, but those are usually the key two). -2pou (talk) 22:28, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Scripted category
On a similar note, I was browsing the podcast categories, and I saw Category:Scripted podcasts. Does anyone have an idea of what this was intended for (creator appears to be inactive now)? The lead description isn't very helpful. When I see "scripted" it makes me think that it is being read from a script with no improvisation or discussion or external interaction/recordings, and it basically would be comparable to "fictional podcasts" unless there was a docudrama that only followed a script, but even those would probably have some kind of recordings being played back. There are, however, several podcasts categorized here like Code Switch, and a bunch of true crime podcasts that I'm not sure would fit that bill. I would recategorize myself, but I wanted to see if the project had any thoughts on what this should really contain. -2pou (talk) 22:28, 8 December 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what the original intent was, but I assumed it meant a podcast that was clearly being read as opposed to being improvised. For instance, the fictional podcast The Adventure Zone is clearly improvised whereas the fictional podcast Welcome to Night Vale was clearly scripted. Similarly, nonfictional talkshow type news analysis is generally improvised like Chapo Trap House whereas nonfictional podcasts like Dissect (podcast), "Cults (podcast)", Mike Duncan's Revolutions, or "Philosophize This" are all clearly scripted. So I don't think it only applies to fiction. I'm not sure how you'd verify whether it's scripted unless a news source or the website mentions it, but it's pretty easy to tell if you listen to a couple of seconds of the podcast. Personally, I'd leave it as it is and maybe find a better way to verify whether there is a script and write a clearer description at the top of the page . TipsyElephant (talk) 14:38, 9 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Do you understand what the Category:Talk podcasts category is? Does the podcast just need talking? Is it unscripted discussion type podcasts? What do you think ? TipsyElephant (talk) 17:44, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi,, I'm not 100% sure, but just looking at the name, I would imagine that it was intended to be the equivalent of talk radio for podcasts. It looks like the creator  is no longer active to answer.  I don't think this is a particularly useful category...  In the world of radio, it makes more sense since most (commercial) radio broadcasting is music, and talk radio is in the minority of air time (usually limited to certain stations or morning/evening segments).  Contrary to this, most podcasts are entirely talk in nature, so I can't really imagine a podcast that would not fall in this category...  Some of the major talk radio topics are usually news, politics, and sports... each of these already has their own category.  We could make these subcats, but as I said, nearly every podcast would fall into some kind of subcat, so I don't think there's any value added...  There are musical podcasts out there, but I don't think breaking Category:Podcasts by genre into Music and Talk really helps anyone.  Are there any other thoughts out there?  If not, we might consider emptying the category and sending it to CfD or speedy delete. -2pou (talk) 19:32, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Including a fiction podcast example in each category would also be very helpful. starsandwhales (talk) 02:03, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * What if we changed Category:Talk podcasts to an Unscripted podcasts category? It would be essentially the same idea as Category:Talk podcasts except it would provide an alternative to Category:Scripted podcasts. Every podcast would fall under one of the two categories, but I'd assume that's fine. I don't know if we'd want to recreate every category as "scripted horror" and "unscripted horror", but we could just keep it in the Category:Podcasts by genre section like Category:Scripted podcasts.  TipsyElephant (talk) 12:51, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I may be the wrong person to ask because I personally think that both categories should probably be deleted for being WP:NONDEFINING. Whether something follows a script or not doesn't seem particularly defining in my eyes.  On top of that, some subjectivity may be introduced if someone thinks a show is scripted, or in cases where a script is followed for some of it and then interviews are also included—is news scripted or not? (I'm still hung up on Code Switch categorized as scripted).  It's kind of an WP:X or Y-like problem with categorization. -2pou (talk) 21:33, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * That actually makes a lot of sense. I hadn't read up on the guidelines for categories yet and those guidelines seem to clearly indicate that both categories should be deleted. I'll look into what the deletion process entails.
 * I tried using Template:RfD on Category:Scripted podcasts and got a bunch of issues. Do you know what I did wrong? TipsyElephant (talk) 01:37, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Sorry,, I probably confused you there. I linked to two separate deletion pages, the latter being a reason for deleting redirects, not categories. I just thought it was a similar argument. RfD is for discussing redirects, and CfD is for discussing categories (see CfD, which also must be substituted). Some of the problems were not using the, but the main thing was trying to use the wrong template. FYI, if you turn on Twinkle in your Preferences > Gadgets, that can really simplify starting any XfD. It really streamlines all the recommended notifications, etc. with automated steps. -2pou (talk) 06:38, 10 January 2021 (UTC) I wish I'd seen this discussion before the category was deleted. "Scripted podcast" is a common, widely used term for podcasts that are similar to a radio play. They are fictional, as opposed to a documentary, and differ from other sorts of podcasts that are more free-wheeling talk shows or interview-based podcasts. They're sometimes referred to as "audio drama podcasts" or "fiction podcasts." It's a valuable distinction in my mind and should have not been deleted summarily. Examples of scripted podcasts would include Wolverine (podcast), Welcome to Night Vale, or The Magnus Archives. Documentary podcasts, like Serial (podcast) or This Land (podcast), may be scripted, but they aren't "scripted podcasts." It's a clearly defined category and the term's use is well documented in reliable sources.

Carter (talk) 14:10, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Category-tree structure also becomes tricky. Is being scripted more defining than being fiction? Having fiction as a sub-cat of scripted creates a whole new branch that needs to be created that is likely to fall victim to being a WP:SMALLCAT, but at the same time necessary. A "Scripted fiction" and "Unscripted fiction", "Scripted comedy" and "Unscripted comedy", etc. would then be needed. Without such, it's possible to end up with something categorized under fiction that is not scripted, but the structure is now suggesting that it is scripted if it were a subcategory. -2pou (talk) 19:28, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm unsure how these sources outline an entirely separate genre from Category:Speculative fiction podcasts or it's three subgenres. The sources seem to loosely use terms like "fiction", "audio drama", "scripted podcast", and "scripted fiction" all interchangeably, and does not seem clearly defined at all. I would be open to recreating the category if we can clearly define what counts and what doesn't count as a scripted podcast, but I think "scripted" is a terrible choice of words if it excludes non-fiction podcasts that are clearly scripted. I'd be much more open to creating an "audio drama" sub-category under Category:Speculative fiction podcasts. I think that would avoid a lot of confusion and I think it can be defined much easier. TipsyElephant (talk) 01:32, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The first thing that comes to mind is that not all scripted podcasts are speculative fiction. There are romance ones, for example, like "Jules and James" and "Meet/Cute;" crime fiction ones, like "This Sounds Serious;" and comedic ones, like "The Amelia Project." What defines them is that they are 1) fiction, 2) produced like a radio play or television show (sound effects, etc.), 3) usually episodic. I'd disagree that the sources do not clearly use scripted podcast in a clear manner: "scripted" is the dominant term for these sorts of productions and is well attested in WP:RS. That you feel it's a terrible term is a matter of WP:JDL; it is the term that's commonly used. In my mind, the logical top category for these is Category:Scripted podcasts, with Category:Speculative fiction podcasts a subcategory of it. Category:Audio drama podcasts might be an alternative top category name, but it doesn't align with the most commonly used term. Carter (talk) 02:55, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
 * There's no problem with recreating categories; it just needs to be clear what the inclusion criteria actually is. (And be a useful relationship.)  The term itself isn't the problem; it is how it can be "misused" in good faith.  Simply saying that it is commonly used doesn't really solve the root of the potential ambiguity, evidenced by the seven or eight non-fiction podcasts that were categorized this way.  In good faith, people can say, "That was read from a script.  I should add this category."  It's hard to argue that they are wrong in such a scenario, despite use in RS.  Perhaps creating a "scripted podcast" page would help with this?  "Policing" categories is highly work intensive for editors as the changes are actually made in the article space vice at the category itself.
 * I wondered if a scripted podcast article might be necessary, but I do worry that it will either be a definitional stub (and WP:NAD) or a listicle; perhaps a section under Podcast would be best. I'll go ahead and add something there. I didn't see the list of articles that had previously been in the now deleted category (I became aware of the RfD after the category was removed from a podcast on my watchlist), but it's hard imagine there is a lot of confusion. Searching Wikipedia for "scripted podcast" turns up 29 instances and all of them are in relation to fiction/audio drama productions. The Webby Awards have a Scripted (Fiction) category for best podcast, but no Scripted (Nonfiction). I get that someone unfamiliar with fiction podcasts might be confused or get hung up on the word "scripted," but even a cursory look at how the term is used by podcast producers is unambiguous and definitional. (Which is another reason WP:NOTDEFINING was a flawed rationale for deletion.) Absence evidence, arguing that the presence of a scripted fiction category would lead to an array of scripted/unscripted categories is a red herring. That said, looking at Category:Podcasts by genre for a solution, perhaps the simplest would be to rename Category:Speculative fiction podcasts as Category:Fiction podcasts and additional subgenres, if appropriate could be added at the risk of WP:SMALLCAT. Articles previously in Category:Scripted podcast, unless clearly non-fiction, should be categorized into the renamed category. That said, I believe that the most accurate name should be Category:Scripted podcasts or, if necessary, Category:Scripted (fiction) podcasts. Carter (talk) 21:35, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The ones I can easily recall are Code Switch and My Dad Wrote a Porno... Again... Code Switch???  =P.  You're right, that WP:NOTDEFINING is not correct given the verbiage therein.  I suppose (for myself at least), I was making the next connection in my own head asking myself, "If it is potentially ambiguous to other people, how can it be a defining characteristic?" based solely on my own interpretation.  The array comment wasn't a red herring... It is simply a question of how to solve a different side effect that the previous recommendation would inadvertently introduce.  Take Hello from the Magic Tavern, an improvised fictional podcast.  Should fiction be subcategorized under scripted, you would get the following:


 * Scripted podcasts
 * Fictional podcasts
 * Hello from the Magic Tavern
 * An editor could reasonably add a fiction category without realizing it was a sub of scripted. Now, it has inadvertently be categorized as both fiction and scripted, when it is only one. I think the category is fine as long as it can easily be made unambiguous to all.  I actually agree with the points you are making... but what it is that triggers someone to put Code Switch (!!!) into such a category still confuses me, and I'm trying to account for whatever that interpretation might be... -2pou (talk) 23:34, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I've added a scripted podcast section to Podcast. Please review and see if you think it helps clarify the category. As for Hello from the Magic Tavern, my first thought is that it should be listed under Category:Comedy and humor podcasts if the central conceit of the podcast is that it is improv comedy; that it is fiction is secondary and not necessarily what defines it. I wouldn't tree "fictional podcasts" under "scripted podcasts." fictional is part of the defition of scripted; they are synonyms here, not subgroups. (That said, if you had Fictional podcasts as the top level, "podcast novels," "scripted podcasts," and "improv fictional podcasts" could be subcategories, I guess.) As for why someone would list Code Switch as a scripted podcast ... sometimes people just make a mistake. Carter (talk) 01:07, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Based on your description at scripted podcast and what you've said, a scripted podcast is synonymous with a fiction podcast. Given that information, I think Speculative_fiction should be changed to Fiction or I think a Realistic_fiction category should be created. If we were to create more categories and delineate between Speculative and Realistic fiction the hierarchy would look something like this, but we'd run into the issue of WP:SMALLCAT:


 * Fiction
 * Speculative Fiction
 * Horror
 * Scifi
 * Fantasy
 * Realistic Fiction
 * Historical fiction
 * Contemporary fiction
 * Mystery or Detective fiction
 * Romance or social realism
 * Adventure fiction, etc.
 * It's bothered me in the past that it's named "Speculative" fiction because I didn't even know what that meant or how it was different from regular fiction until I looked it up. I would be much more open to simply renaming the category to just "Fiction", but I don't understand why we'd have a "Speculative" fiction category without it's opposite, and unless I'm mistaken that would solve the problem of whether there is a "scripted" category. However, you've stated that fictional podcasts that are improvised like Hello from the Magic Tavern, The Adventure Zone, Mission to Zyxx, Critical Role, and quite a few others would not be considered "Scripted" because there isn't a script being read from. That causes a lot of issues because then just renaming the overarching category to fiction podcasts somehow doesn't include all fictional podcasts. So I'm still confused how "scripted podcast" can be synonymous with "fiction podcast", but not include improvised fiction podcasts. Please explain this bit to me . TipsyElephant (talk) 13:30, 21 January 2021 (UTC)


 * To clarify my question. Would you define a "Scripted podcast" as explicitly being read from a script and also being explicitly fiction. If so and if you say that a "scripted podcast" is synonymous with a "fiction podcast" then how would you classify non-fiction podcasts that are scripted and fiction podcasts that are improvised? If the genre is defined this way it raises a lot of problems with how we would categorize. TipsyElephant (talk) 15:24, 21 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Yes, a "scripted podcast" is the commonly used term for the broad category of prewritten, voice-acted, and sound-designed fictional podcast serieses. Non-fiction podcasts, whether they use a script or not, should be classified by their commonly affiliated genre (True Crime, Sports, Political Talk, History, Education, etc.). Scripted and unscripted are not two-sides of a coin here, i.e., even though every podcast either uses or doesn't use a script, they aren't generally and shouldn't be categorized by such. In that sense, WP:NOTDEFINING applies and worrying about whether or not people will incorrectly characterize an article seems to be overdoing it. The problem is that "scripted podcast" is the common term for that broad category of podcasts, which makes it appropriate to use here even if there isn't an "unscripted podcast" category. Podcasts like The Adventure Zone and Critical Role involve fictional worlds, but are live plays of tabletop role-playing games. The common term I'm familiar with for these is "live play podcast" or "actual play podcast" and would typically be treed under Games or Gaming podcasts. Mission to Zyxx and Hello from the Magic Tavern seem me to be improv comedy podcasts; they may have fictional world where the improv scenario plays out, but the focus is on the quick-thinking and humorous responses that build off each member of the troupe, not the narrative arc. These defining characteristics would tree them under Comedy > Improv (and if going deeper > Science Fiction or > Fantasy). The other question is how do these podcasts classify themselves? For example, in Apple Podcasts "Hello from the Magic Tavern" is filed under "Improv." Ultimately, the issue for me is that "scripted fiction" is a clear and well-defined category of podcasts. In media covering podcasts and in podcast directories, the confusion being worried about here does not seem to exist. And if someone is confused about it a quick Google search should clear up the matter. It's a term used in about 30 existing Wikipedia article about podcasts and podcast producers; there are two articles that use the phrase "unscripted podcast," only one of which gives an idea of that refers to (in this case a talk show). Carter (talk) 16:24, 21 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The narrative arc of The Adventure Zone and Critical Role are hugely emphasized in their Wikipedia articles with the story arcs and cast of characters taking up the majority of the pages. Not to mention the hosts of The Adventure Zone published books for each campaign's story arc (One of which topped the NYT fiction charts: "It quickly topped New York Times' best-selling trade fiction list, becoming the first graphic novel to do so") and Critical Role has had a number of books and comics based on the narrative. An essential part of the podcasts is the improvisation, but to say that the focus is not on the narrative is incorrect if we are going based the content of their Wikipedia pages (which barely mention the improvisation or comedy if at all). Given that information I believe they should be categorized as some form of fiction. Improvisation makes sense for Hello from the Magic Tavern and Mission to Zyxx, but I don't think they should be removed from fantasy or science fiction. Based on the conversation, if the Speculative fiction podcasts category was changed to Fiction podcasts or Scripted podcasts these would have to be removed and I strongly disagree with that decision. Especially considering Mission to Zyxx describes itself as an "improvised science fiction podcast" on both the official website and the official cover art. TipsyElephant (talk) 17:55, 21 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I wasn't saying that The Adventure Zone and Critical Role were improv comedy, but live-play RPG podcasts. Yes, they have a narrative arc, as any successful RPG campaign would. So maybe the category tree isn't scripted podcast > subgenres, but scripted podcast is one category and fiction > subgenres is another category tree. That would let "The Bright Sessions," for example, sit under both "Podcasts > Scripted Podcasts" and "Podcasts > Speculative Fiction Podcasts > Science Fiction" ... which is pretty much the situation prior to the category deletion. Carter (talk) 19:57, 21 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I guess that's fine. I would still be more in support of naming the category "Audio dramas", which based on a quick google search is also commonly used and is a synonym according to your edit to Podcast. It would be much less likely to have the wrong podcast categorized under it and much less likely to be deleted in the future due to confusion (which obviously there is some confusion considering two members of the WikiProject and an entire group of CfD reviewers had no idea what a "Scripted podcast" was). You have objected to calling it an "Audio drama" though and seem pretty set on "Scripted podcast" because it's used more often by sources.
 * I also still think that if there is going to be a Speculative fiction category there should be a Realistic fiction category, but I doubt there would be enough content or supporting sources. So I'd propose changing "Speculative fiction" to simply "Fiction" and making "Audio drama/Scripted podcasts" a sub-category of "Fiction" because all "Audio dramas/Scripted podcasts" are fiction but not all fiction podcasts are "Audio dramas/Scripted podcasts".
 * Overall, I think I'd be more open to calling the category "Scripted podcast" if the Podcast was either expanded or made into a separate article, and the category is either entirely separate from or a sub-category of "Speculative fiction" (or the renamed "Fiction podcasts"). TipsyElephant (talk) 13:39, 22 January 2021 (UTC)


 * If you want to have the deletion of Scripted Podcast undone and then rename as Audio Drama, I wouldn't be opposed. I'd note that the prior discussion here seemed to be more speculation about what "scripted podcast" could mean instead of any investigation of the term, and the CfD discussion had only three people (two of whom were the project members) participate. I don't have any strong feelings about "Speculative Fiction" as a category. Carter (talk) 19:28, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

A proposed category hierarchy for podcasts
Sorry to hijack an area,, and this is my first time on a talk page, sorry if I'm breaking protocol. I've been involved with fiction podcasting since 2006, and I'm currently the chair of the Audio Verse Awards. reached out about giving ya'll reliable and sourceable information for the Awards, but I love this medium, and have a lot of knowledge to share. Lore is researched folklore not storytelling, so it's non-fiction, like book on folklore.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podcast has issues, like non-fiction true crime content can be heavily scripted, and Podcast novels are audiobooks, which tries to include full-cast dramatizations of prose.

As you've clearly seen, Fiction Podcasts have a terminology crisis, where there are multiple ways to describe the same thing. The AVAs are trying to help standardize things, but unlike visual arts, audio storytelling doesn't have much of an academic base outside of radio. To begin categorizing things, we started defining them based on what we observed in the space. There's a lot that has been lost, either to burnout, history, miscategorization, or in the case of many pre-2012 Audio Dramas, incorrect rights usage that were taken down by the copyright owners.

Podcasts as a whole should be split into their content being fiction and non-fiction, just like at a library. Apple Podcasts only added fiction categories in 2019, and that means for the 17 years or so beforehand people were releasing fiction podcasts, they hid in other categories, like comedy, performing arts, or tv and film. Within both, you have scripted and unscripted formats, and those have distinct styles.

Non-fiction unscripted podcasts come in converstational or interview, while scripted non-fiction can be critique, investigative, or informative. Fiction podcasts come scripted in audio plays, where dialogue is spoken, or prose, or unscripted using roleplaying game mechanics, or just plain old improvised

Not to mention there are two types of podcast releases! Serial podcasts build a continuous narrative, and episodic podcasts are installments you can listen to in any order.

Notice how these categories avoid covering genre or topics here? Podcasts can blend or shift those, the AVAs tried to keep those distinct for fiction, only for Wolf 359 to stop being a sitcom and go full drama. They shifted instead to focus on recognizing the disciplines required to make a fiction podcast, but that's also because of the wide variety of genres they can be, and as noted, you get the small category problem.

I propose that you standardize podcasts into an evolving hierarchy of categories, which describe the podcast for it's page. Podcast Name is a/an release, style, content, Podcast about...


 * Hello from the Magic Tavern is a serial improvised fiction podcast.
 * Welcome to Night Vale is a serial audio play fiction podcast.
 * The NoSleep Podcast is a episodic prose fiction podcast.
 * Serial is an serial investigative non-fiction podcast
 * The Adventure Zone is a serial roleplaying game fiction podcast.
 * Lore is an episodic informative non-fiction podcast.
 * Reply All is an episodic informative non-fiction podcast
 * The Daily is an episodic interview non-fiction podcast
 * In the Dark is an episodic investigative non-fiction podcast
 * Film Junk is an episodic critique non-fiction podcast

You want podcasters to be able to identify themselves and handle their details under a framework that encompasses everything. Understanding what a podcast is like helps discoverability. I hope this helps. -Radarforest (talk) 22:40, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

TL:DR
All podcasts fall into these categories by style, before genres or topic is involved:

Non-Fiction
 * Conversational
 * Interview
 * Critique
 * Investigative
 * Informative

Fiction
 * Audio plays
 * Prose
 * Roleplaying game
 * Improvised

You can break them up even further between episodic and serialized podcasts, and as the podcasting renaissance continues, there will be more evolutions.

- Radarforest (talk) 22:53, 17 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Hello, don't worry you aren't hijacking anything and we welcome any newcomers that want to contribute to the project. I totally agree that the Types of podcasts section is a mess and honestly the podcast article needs a ton of work. I've mostly been putting off working on it because it's such a broad topic and I wasn't sure where to start. You've actually quite neatly outlined what I was having trouble figuring out. I was planning on eventually splitting the Types of podcasts section into a section about the different genres and a section about the formats (audio, video, enhanced, etc.), but I wasn't sure how to differentiate further. Based on my own experiences so far, my impression is that pretty much everything you outlined is correct and I agree with your assessment. My primary concern at this point is the verifiability of the different types of release, style, and content. Based on some google searches it looks like everything would be pretty easily verifiable except for maybe a prose podcast. Do you know if there is a different name that is commonly used for this type of podcast?


 * In your assessment you haven't really mentioned genres like horror podcast, political podcast, religion and spirituality podcast, or fantasy podcast, which you noted in your TL;DR. I was wondering what your take is on fiction versus non-fiction. I've run into examples of podcasts that are described in secondary sources as non-fiction followed by a genre that is generally considered fiction. For instance, here's a source from discoverpods.com that list Words to That Effect and Imaginary worlds as fantasy podcasts and explicitly describes them as nonfiction. I guess I'm curious how this fits with or breaks the hierarchy and what a good solution would be especially if we start implementing these ideas as podcasting categories.


 * I've noticed that the Wikiproject lacks quite a bit of clarity when it comes to types of podcasts so I've started creating articles dedicated to the different genres of podcast, and if you're willing I'd really appreciate the help getting a few more of them made. For instance we're still missing articles clarifying what most of the genres listed at Category:Podcasts by genre include and how they are defined. We are also missing list articles that correspond to each genre. And obviously you've already noted that Types of podcasts needs a lot of work. TipsyElephant (talk) 03:52, 18 February 2021 (UTC)