Talk:1901 Boston Marathon

Discrepancy?
Cool article ~ fascinating. A possible discrepancy, though, that i can't correct because i'm not sure of the facts: Is there one man Caffrey, or are there two? He is called (and wlinked) John P. Caffrey in the lead, then a John J. Caffrey takes an early lead, then Caffrey runs all through, until a quote from the Buffalo Courier calls him J. J. Caffrey and the picture from the Boston Globe by that quote calls him John J. Caffrey again. If he's one man, the initials need to be cleared up, if there were two of them that needs to be clearer. Happy days, ~ LindsayHello 05:25, 19 May 2024 (UTC)


 * @LindsayH, thanks for pointing this out. All those names should refer to one person. Based on the article Jack Caffery (runner), it appears his name is John Peter Caffery but he went by Jack Caffrey. That would make sense with all of the listed names except for "J. J. Caffery", which I suspect is a mistake because the Buffalo Courier spelled his surname incorrectly as well. His last name seems to be spelled variously "Caffrey" and "Caffery".
 * I've changed all names to refer to "Jack Caffery", his Wikipedia name, in the mean time. --Habst (talk) 12:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Route
Could a section about the route be added to this article? This seems like basic information required for GA class. (@Mike Christie @Habst) – Editør (talk) 08:12, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The route is described in passing as part of the race description, but if there's enough information to make a separate route section, then yes, that's a good idea. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * In my opinion this is alright for a C class article, but not for a GA class article. – Editør (talk) 11:28, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * And I have made this known previously. – Editør (talk) 11:30, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Is there enough information about the route for a more detailed discussion? Or does the article already include what is known? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:33, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Valid questions that should have been asked and answered during the GA review. – Editør (talk) 11:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi @Editør, I fully agree with your concerns on my talk page and I apologize for not addressing them earlier. I wasn't able to find a course map, only the approximate distance (per ARRS) and a series of landmarks passed per contemporary news reports. That being said, I think a map could be reverse engineered. I also agree with adding a background section, explaining as you alluded to the fact that women were barred until 1967. I'll work on those today. --Habst (talk) 11:54, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Editør, yes, if I'd thought about the question of whether more information was available about the route, I would have asked that question during the review. Habst, I would be a bit concerned about reverse engineering a full route map, since I think it would be hard to ensure it was accurate along the whole length of the course.  If you can source it fully, that would be great; otherwise, how about just a map showing the points identified as being along the route? Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 12:58, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Mike Christie @Editør, I've found a complete description of the route from the Boston Evening Transcript; I created a new "Background" section and included that (published in 1901) in full for now. It seems thorough enough that a map could be made of it, but I'm not sure I should be the one to do that as I'm not so familiar with Boston geography at that time. --Habst (talk) 15:31, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking into this. There are fewer competitors listed in the Results section than in the 1901 news article, so I was curious what the selection was based on. – Editør (talk) 20:14, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The route description should probably share source reference #9. I'm not sure the route works in this quoted form, it would probably benefit from paraphrasing, explaining, and linking. The starting point is the bridge over the Sudbury River on Pleasant Street. This is indeed about a mile from Central House, which used to be a hotel at the corner of Main Street and Front Street.  Both bridge and hotel are north of the Boston and Albany Railroad, from there the marathon seems to more or less have followed the tracks on the south side through the named towns. In Newton Lower Falls, there is a Washington Street that ends up crossing Commonwealth Avenue in Newton, Massachusetts, the latter road passes the Chestnut Hill Reservoir, where you find Beacon Street that crosses again with Commonwealth Avenue at Kenmore Square. The Commonwealth Avenue then crosses Back Bay Fens which is mostly on the right. The abbreviation B.A.A. is mentioned twice in the article (also in the footnote) but it is not explained that it means Boston Athletic Association, which indeed had its clubhouse on Exeter Street.  – Editør (talk) 06:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Was the B.A.A. the organizer of the event? – Editør (talk) 06:50, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Editør, thanks for your great help.
 * There are fewer competitors listed in the Results section than in the 1901 news article, so I was curious what the selection was based on -- Yes, it seems like times and positions were only officially recorded for the top eight as only those places received prizes. The other four people listed in the Results table are only there because I found direct proof that they started the race – there were definitely other starters, per the starting line photo showing dozens of people, but I wasn't able to verify or even guess their names.
 * The route description should probably share source reference #9. I'm not sure the route works in this quoted form, it would probably benefit from paraphrasing, explaining, and linking. -- The reference is ✅, thanks. That was some great work on understanding the map. I hope you don't mind I've posted a link to WP:Requested maps here so hopefully we can get an image made to further explain it.
 * Was the B.A.A. the organizer of the event? -- Yes, to my knowledge the B.A.A. has organized every Boston Marathon since the first one, when it was called the "Boston Athletic Association race". --Habst (talk) 12:18, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The route description isn't very precise about the middle part through the towns, so maybe that part of the route should have a dashed line instead of a continuous line when a map is created.
 * Could you explain the B.A.A. abbreviation and add the organizer (with source) in the article? – Editør (talk) 12:33, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh and this map shows the location of the great signboards (towards the bottom right) together with Washington Street in Newton. – Editør (talk) 12:40, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Could you explain the B.A.A. abbreviation and add the organizer (with source) in the article? -- ✅ in the lede, thanks. Re: the other two notes about the route, they are helpful, I linked this thread in the map request so that those things can be noted. Thanks, --Habst (talk) 14:35, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Additional comments
Some other things you might want to look at: – Editør (talk) 16:27, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The first sentence shouldn't have a bold link per MOS:LEADSENTENCE
 * ✅ in Special:Diff/1233564147 --Habst (talk)
 * The infobox title should probably also not have a bold link
 * ✅ in Special:Diff/1233564147 --Habst (talk)
 * The first sentence could be more precise about the location (not just "in Boston")
 * ✅ in Special:Diff/1233564147 --Habst (talk)
 * Images need alt texts per MOS:ALT
 * ✅ in Special:Diff/1233565340 --Habst (talk) 19:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The times don't have units anywhere
 * ✅ in all prose sections in Special:Diff/1233565841 --Habst (talk) 19:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Why is Patriots' Day mentioned in the infobox, is this relevant? Not discussed anywhere else
 * ✅ removed in Special:Diff/1233566121 --Habst (talk) 19:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't the winning time be mentioned in the lead?
 * ✅ in Special:Diff/1233565841 --Habst (talk) 19:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Editør, thank you for this helpful feedback, I responded in-line. --Habst (talk) 19:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking at these things. – Editør (talk) 20:14, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Some other things:
 * It is my understanding that a lead section should be a summary of the article, and for that reason doesn't need source references most of the time. However in this case some elements in the lead are not mentioned elsewhere without obvious reason.
 * The article uses three date formats (9 July 2024 / April 19, 1901 / 2024-04-13), maybe choose one?
 * Source reference #20 is missing some basic information
 * The residence column in the Results table is a mix of US states and countries and a people, I think all rows should have the same level of precision when possible, unless there is a good reason to not do that
 * I am not convinced that the current sectioning of the article makes the most sense, a section named 'The race' in an article about this race seems to lack focus. I would like to propose a new structure although I'm sure there are alternative solutions:
 * Lead
 * Background (add organizer and info about women competitors)
 * Route (merge quote from Background and route info from The race)
 * Results (merge Results section and race description from The race)
 * Poisoning allegations
 * Legacy
 * Notes
 * References
 * – Editør (talk) 17:19, 10 July 2024 (UTC)