Talk:2007 Pan American Games medal table

Full table with zeroes?
OK, I didn't want to revert the user, seeing as how he has been the main contributor to the page, but my question in general would be, doesn't it make sense not to include the nations who didn't receive medals? I mean, especially on the day-by-day counts, it seems a little ridiculous and overkill to do that. A medal count's purpose is to show who received medals at a specific games, not who didn't receive medals. Look at 1956 Summer Olympics medal count or any other Olympics medal count for instance. You'll see that only those who have won medals are on the count.

Now, being a member of the WP:OLY, I can say that we have precedent on our articles not to include nations with no medals on the counts, but I cannot pass that precedent on to you as these games are in a totally different realm. I can, however, urge the editor that there has long been precedent on other pages to remove the zero-medal nations.

On another note, we may also be considering deleting the medal count pages on our project, because of the fact that they may be unreliable and can easily be placed elsewhere. Please also take this into consideration. Thanks. └ Jared ┘┌ t ┐&ensp; 13:30, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, this isn't a Olympic Games. This is a Pan American Games. I find important to show all information, without excluding nothing. Felipe C.S ( talk ) 18:24, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm a member of the Olympics Wikiproject as Jared, so I'm within most of the layout and data presentation "guidelines" that have been consensually agreed with the other members. I've looked at this article's edit history and the ongoing discussion and the Pan American Games are no different from the Olympic Games. In fact, PASO is a continental association of NOCs, therefore subjected to the International Olympic Committee; moreover, the Olympic Flag is raised along with PASO's during the Games. Hence one cannot say that this event is totally independent and unrelated to the Olympic Movement.


 * This is no imposition but I feel that the Pan American Games-related pages (as well as Asian Games, All-African Games, etc., so we're not picking with these in particular) can be covered by the Olympics Project; at least until a specific PanAms project is created for that matter. Jared's edits are well-intended considering he acknowledges the PanAms as similar to the Olympics, and thus is applying the same layout guidelines that we use in Olympic pages. Obviously, I do think the layout looks better as Jared as put it, but as we don't own this article (or any other) we are happy to discuss this.


 * About this article in specific, I believe it's common sense not to show the non-medaled nations until they do win one or more. If a nation is not listed it's because it hasn't won anything yet, right? But if you do want to show them, then just do it on the total medal count not on the day-by-day tables because it's overkill. Another thing about these daily tables — I believe it's better not to accumulate a day's medals with the following, otherwise it seems a nation has more medals per day than it really conquered.  Parutakupiu  talk 22:48, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * João Felipe C.S, you keep insisting on showing in the medalist table nations that haven't won any medal. What sense does it make? It's a medalists ranking table, not an all-nations ranking one. Besides, you give different rankings for nations that have the exact same number and type of medals, when the between-parenthesis sentence says that they should be ranked equally and ordered alphabetically. This becomes even more absurd when you rank distinctively nations with zero medals. How can this be? Paruta(l)kupiu 02:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

copy of comment left at User:João Felipe C.S's talkpage
I have looked at the editing history of the above article, and the talkpage there and here and at User:Jared. I would make the following points; Wikipedia is a collabrative project, and anybody can edit. This means that no one person has the final say in how content should be presented, including the originator, and that consensus should be reached. By choosing to edit the English language version of Wikipedia means you have agreed to edit by the rules, policies and guidelines of the English language Wikipedia. A lack of communication skills in the endemic language does not allow you to disregard or not respond to the concerns of other editors, especially if you continue to edit in the manner which gave rise to the concerns.

Since there were initially two editors I would suggest that both you and User:Jared seek the opinion of a third party and attempt to form a consensus between the three of you. I note a third editor has now contributed to the article, so you might consider requesting their assistance. I shall copy this comment to the article talkpage, and I request that all parties endeavour to reach agreement there. LessHeard vanU 21:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * For me, this layout is better. Showing all information of organized and clear form. Best regards, Felipe C.S ( talk ) 21:14, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Layout
OK, so I'm here because I'd like to compromise on a solution to the page layout. My concerns are as follows:
 * The table is broken down by day.
 * Is this original research, or are there reliable sources which list the day-by-day tables?


 * The page is redundant, as in it lists information more than needed.
 * For example, if the top table shows that a nation has no medals, then why should the day-by-day tables show those nations as well if we already know there was no medal on that day?


 * The IOC code has its own column.
 * The codes could easily be listed next to the country name if flagPASOteam is used, right?

First off, the page needs citations to prove that day-by-day tables are not original research. This should be easy and as long as they're there, the tables are fine. Otherwise, I think that they should be removed due to policy violations.

Next, it is not necessary, in my opinion, to have listed multiple times that a nation did not get a medal on a certain day. For example, take this precedented style of medal tables on 2006 Winter Olympics medal count: if you go into edit on this revision, you will see that all nations having not won a medal are commented out, and editors are advised to cut and paste the nation into the main table only when they have won a medal. This is what is used on about a hundred medal tables, so I think that it would be safe to use this precedent, especially seeing as how it comes from WP:OLYMPICS, a progressive and hard-working wikiproject.

And last, the Olympics WikiProject is currently using flagIOCteam on all medal tables in order to help assimilate a country code with the country (see this section of the talk page). I've created flagPASOteam for the same purpose, because it removes the necessity to create a separate column for the country code, and displays the code in a non-intrusive way that has long been precedent of WP:OLYMPICS.

I believe that I make a valid case for my arguments, but I am willing to compromise with you or others if you believe that you have a strong case for your suggested methods. └ Jared ┘┌ t ┐&ensp; 22:08, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Re:Layout

 * The table is broken down by day.
 * This is a original research. See the source. It is simple. It is enough to bring update the table in accordance with the day.


 * The page is redundant, as in it lists information more than needed.
 * The question is aesthetic here. All information is presented to make the tables are of the same so great.


 * The IOC code has its own column.
 * A dedicated column to the codes organizes the table.

Don't exist sources that present the medal count day-by-day. What we make is update the table in accordance with the day. Using the official website as reference.

This article isn't part of the WP:OLYMPICS.

And sorry. My English is not good. Felipe C.S ( talk ) 22:41, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * So that's it, you've laid down your irrefutable arguments and the case is closed...  Parutakupiu  talk 04:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

What a mess
If I understand this, are we going to have sixteen versions (one set every day) of two medal tables (men & women) on this page by the end of these Games? And all 32 tables would include a set of zeroes for the dozen or two nations that won't win any medals? What a disaster! Andrwsc 03:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with you that there is no need to have a lot of tables on this page. Just one table, like in the 2004 Summer Olympics medal count article, is enough. Actually, the article looks much better with just one table. For the same reason, the separated men's and women's table should also be removed. --Carioca 05:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Per the consensus here, I've gotten rid of the zeros (commented them actually) and the men/women table. I'm the only one who's mentioned the dislike of the IOC code column thus far, so I didn't get rid of that in lieu of using flagPASOteam. └ Jared ┘┌ t ┐&ensp; 16:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I also dislike the IOC code column… —MC 19:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * What to choose: writing and moving the IOC codes everytime or hardcode them in a template so they appear always near their respective NOC and never have to write them again? Go ahead and use flagPASOteam that you politely created for these Games.  Parutakupiu  talk 22:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Per capita medal tables
I would like to point out that recently, two medal count pages were deleted in an AfD because they were per capita medal tables, which consensus agreed that they violated WP:OR, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOT. Now, if we can find some way to make sure the newly-added columns do not violate the three policies listed above, I'd be fine with it, but due to the precedent already set and the lack of notability for these types of tables, I don't believe these columns should remain here.

On a generalized note, this is a medal table page. There need not be anything fancy-dancy here, like separate men's/women's counts, day-by-day counts, separate columns to denote a different way of viewing the rankings, etc. Just a simple medal table should do. See any of the Olympics medal counts for a consistent if you need guidance on style. └ Jared ┘┌ t ┐&ensp; 12:56, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * fixed. Perakhantu 17:01, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Day-by-day tables
We're in the 4th day of these Games and there are only two per-day tables — anyone interested in resuming the task? In my opinion such tables shouldn't even exist, the total medal count is enough.  Parutakupiu  talk 22:32, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Ya, I really don't think the day-to-day tables are necessary. We should take them out. Anyone oppose? Ô 19:58, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I absôlutely dô nôt ôppôse! └ Jared ┘┌ t ┐&ensp; 20:37, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. Please, remove it. --Carioca 06:01, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Change the table
Look, why we don't show the all information? Thus it seems that some countries don't participate on the competition, and is not possible to know the position of the Virgin Islands for example. Felipe C.S ( talk )


 * Support the suggestion
 * 1) Felipe C.S ( talk ) 16:13, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Oppose the suggestion
 * 1) Strong oppose — The full set of nations is already listed in the "Participating Nations" section of the main article, and is redundant to repeat in a list of medalists.  This style is already used on hundreds of other multi-sport Games articles on Wikipedia (all Olympics, Commonwealth Games, Asian Games, all previous Pan-Am Games, etc.)  What makes this specific Games different?  Nothing.  Andrwsc 16:26, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Strong oppose as per Andrwsc. Paruta(l)kupiu 17:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Strong oppose per Andrwsc. —MC 17:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) Strong oppose. In the main article we have a section listing all the participating nations, so there is no need to list all the countries here. If the country is not listed is because it failed to won at least a medal. The list is good as it is now. --Carioca 22:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


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