Talk:2009 southeastern Australia heat wave

Tasmania
What about Tasmania? Scamander yesterday recorded the states highest ever temperature of 42.2 and Launceston also reached it's highest temperature of 39.0. Flinders Island recorded the states previous record temperature on just Thursday with 41.5. Why hasn't anything been put in about the island state? Trust me 39 in Tassie is as warm as about 45 on the mainland.  Aaroncrick  ( Tassie Talk ) 01:53, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And this - the hot doesn't stop. Peripitus (Talk) 21:48, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Once in 100 years?
Is it an event that occurs once in 100 years? I've read it somewhere. --123.238.92.138 (talk) 13:09, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * No, heat waves affect Australia often. —Cyclonenim (talk · contribs · email) 23:35, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It's just something they've been throwing around in the media because, in Melbourne at least, we've apparently not had a heat-wave this serious in about a century. Knyght27 (talk) 00:53, 1 February 2009 (UTC)


 * There were a few on the same level this in the late 1800s, one in 1908, one in 1939, one in the 1960s and this one in 2009. But this one has affected quite a widespread area, it occurred in modern times with more accurate weather readings, and it so far has lasted a week! So these factors combined make it the most extensive heatwave in Australia's history, if not, in the top 3.


 * It's also worth noting that if we had the same level of fire protection and education about heatwaves, fatalities from the heatwave & bushfires would have been much higher. For example: in the 1939 heatwave and bushfires, over 400 died of heat-related illness and around 50 or 60 died in the bushfires. Nick carson (talk) 06:42, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Title
I'd suggest that the article be retitled to 2009 Southeastern Australia heat wave as this is more specifically the area affected, and is a regional definition that is referred to by the Bureau of Meteorology. Melburnian (talk) 00:18, 1 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree, I was unsure about this when I created the article, but I totally agree it should be changed. I'll do it tonight if I get a chance. Nick carson (talk) 06:44, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Standardise Temperature Locations
I'll compile a list of locations that are adequately spaced for use in the temperatures section. We'll also include a separate list of the highest temperatures recorded and where they occurred. In the meantime, we should stop adding more and more locations before it gets irrational. Nick carson (talk) 06:48, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Great Map. Could each state have their own sections, as this could possibly clean up the article. Then bar graphs could be made to show temperature comparisons throughout the state.  Aaroncrick  ( Tassie Talk ) 06:50, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Also don't worry about adding anything below 35°C (34.5°C is ok as it gets rounded up) to the list of locations since 35°C + for a few days (normally 7 days or more but it can be less) is classed as heat wave conditions. Bidgee (talk) 07:07, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

If a Tasmanian section is made this type of chart could be added.  Aaroncrick  ( Tassie Talk ) 07:36, 1 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry but I dislike that chart, I'll see what I can come up with. Bidgee (talk) 07:43, 1 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The diagram is okay, but not susinct enough for the article I think. I'll upload something more specific. I also agree with the 35+ classification for temperate climate cities, but towns like Mildura, Swan Hill, etc, anything in excess of 40 for 3 or more days would be considered a heatwave. Anything prolonged 35+ in that region is standard summer weather. Nick carson (talk) 11:24, 1 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Not a huge fan of your chart. Red (White and red does that) hurts my eyes and maybe a little hard to understand for those who don't know what it means. Bidgee (talk) 11:37, 1 February 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not perfect, but it's simple enough for anyone who knows how to read graphs to understand. I'll be updating it, only on Melb & Adel temps as it'll just get out of hand with too many locations. Maybe someone'll end up making a better version, maybe we'll end up not using it at all, for now, at least, it's useful. Nick carson (talk) 11:52, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It's definitely good enough for the time being. Lot better than nothing.  Aaroncrick  ( Tassie Talk ) 11:55, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
 * What about this?
 * [[File:Adel Melb Temps Heatwave 09 (Concept).png]]


 * It's a modified (Concept Version/Work in progress) image of File:Adel Melb Temps Heatwave 09.png (IE: I've added a gradient and changed the text). I can modify the gradient some more if needed. If Nick is willing to make more of the images I can modify them. Bidgee (talk) 12:52, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Fantastic!  Aaroncrick  ( Tassie Talk ) 22:56, 1 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll update the Melb/Adel graph when the temperatures go below 35 in Adelaide. The gradient looks good. I don't think we need graphs for every location. I'm still keen to standardise the list of locations, we need an even spread of locations affected by the heatwave. Also, aparently the system is moving across NSW so we might see the affected area increase over the next week. Nick carson (talk) 06:07, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It's possible for each location to have it own map (IE: just link it like Graph). Just got to fix the graph up (IE 18.0 is at 19.0 ect). Bidgee (talk) 06:27, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Concept Graph & Location Canvas
I like the concept graph for wagga wagga, perhaps we could do the same for each location on the list? Do you reckon that'd be overkill? I think you've done a better job than my mspaint skills have, so I'll leave it to you, as long as you use the BOM as the source for the figures.

Also, I've put together a list of evenly spaced locations in the affected area which I'm going to trawl through and find out the actual extent of this heatwave, then I'll take the main locations, or particularly notable ones, maybe even discover what the highest temperature was, and we'll use these locations in the article. I'll readjust the map as per my findings too. Nick carson (talk) 02:57, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks but you also get some credit as well for the lay out ECT. I will start on the other locations tomorrow as I have a day off (due to tomorrow being toasty 41°C) and yes I'm using the BoM as the source since it's really the only reliable data. Bidgee (talk) 11:07, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 41°C will just seem like the av for you after this prolonged heatwave.  Aaroncrick (Tassie talk) 12:06, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd hate to be in Mildura right now, 8 days straight over 40! Nick carson (talk) 12:28, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Talking about Mildura. I've just compeleted the graph (todays top temp will be added tomorrow and will be updated until the heat wave ends). File:Mildura Heatwave Min & Max Temps 09 (Concept).png. Bidgee (talk) 06:08, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Albury is done although the maximum temperatures for the 3rd, 4th and 5th and minimums for the 4th and 5th is missing (IE: I have an uncomplete data set and have to wait until NSW BoM send me the missing data.). We may even have a world record set but do not add this into the article (Reason why I will not say what the record is) just yet until the investigation by the BoM is complete. Bidgee (talk) 11:57, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Rationale for inclusion of Melb temps under 30
I've included the temperatures in melbourne for feb so far, it's been 30.8 average, the heatwave is still in effect meteorologically in melbourne but we've benefitted from some southerly sea breezes to take 5-10 degrees off the top of it. We've also got a couple more days predicted over 40 and 35 in the days to come so these few days of 30.2, 33.8, etc, I think should be included. Same goes for other locations that have had small dips in the temp for various reasons.

Also, I have a suspicion that some of the tv news journos are using our article as a source. Nick carson (talk) 12:28, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Technically 31st - 4th are not classed as part of the heatwave (As it has to be above 35). We shouldn't add the 31st to the 4th as the heatwave in Melbourne itself is over even though one day above 35 is forecasted (43°C on Saturday thanks to a strong cold front which will drag the hot air back down again). Bidgee (talk) 00:51, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * We've both got good points, we'll wait till after this whole thing is over and see how our perspectives change. Nick carson (talk) 04:30, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Well Melbourne ended up having it's hottest day on record with disastrous consequences.  Aaroncrick (Tassie talk) 05:01, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Indeed. Nick carson (talk) 02:58, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Map Update
I've confirmed more of the extent of the affected area, I'm updating the map with the realigned and extended area and I'll have it uploaded by tomorrow evening. Nick carson (talk) 13:10, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That will be great.  Aaroncrick (Tassie talk) 01:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Capitalisation
Why is "Southeastern" capitalised, exactly? Daniel (talk) 07:58, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * In retrospect, the word shouldn't have been capitalised in the title (and elsewhere). I'll amend it to 2009 southeastern Australia heat wave if there are no objections. Melburnian (talk) 08:28, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * More importantly, why is it called southeastern as one word? It's actually "south-eastern" 220.238.18.235 (talk) 03:05, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * "southeastern Australia" has been used by the Bureau of Meteorology.  Melburnian (talk) 03:22, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Maybe my grammar is a little fuzzy but when you use a directional term to describe a location that has a name you should use capitals I think.--Senor Freebie (talk) 13:31, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


 * As I understand it "southeast" is just a directional qualifier and not part of a proper noun, ie southeastern Australia refers to a vaguely defined part of Australia as opposed to say South Australia which is a specific, well-defined entity. Melburnian (talk) 07:51, 19 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah I'm pretty sure you're right.--Senor Freebie (talk) 06:18, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

New Zealand as well ???
It is worth noting that the AUstralian heatwave is not an isolated incident in the region.

Obviously not quite as severe effects, but the heatwave has followed on to New Zealand, with several towns setting their hottest temperatures in recorded history and many population centres recording 40+ degree Celcius temperatures.

Also New Caledonia experienced one last month which set the record temperature for Noumea at 35.6 degrees.

Should the article mention this as well, as it is not only southeastern Australia effected. --Biatch (talk) 05:49, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * New Zealand and New Caledonia have been affected by the same weather system that stalled over the Tasman Sea, perhaps articles can be created on the heatwvaes in these locations, but this article is concerned with the heatwave in southeastern Australia. Nick carson (talk) 03:05, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Casualties
Regarding the claim of 126+ casualties related to this incident, firstly, the Wiki standards relating to referencing have not been met, such that I would like the authors of this article to properly JUSTIFY their claim of 126+ deaths for the heatwave, and secondly, what is a casualty -- a death, or, in line with the word's ACTUAL meaning, injuries as well as deaths? The figure is entered in the infobox. It is properly referred to as "suspected", though perhaps more accurately it would be "speculative" given it has no supporting references. It has no supporting section in the article that includes any references. So, in other words, while I will refrain from impugning the character of the editor, that figure could have been made up off the top of their head for all a reader knows. The rules of articles go like this: you have article text that says "126+ people are suspected to have died", broken down by reference articles from whatever newspapers, and then referred to in the infobox. I do not dispute that this figure is possible, even likely, but give it is a figure being splashed around other Wikipedia articles, including List_of_disasters_in_Australia_by_death_toll, and, given we live in the age of Stephen Colbert and the whales edit-wars, I would think the editorial standards ought to be much higher for this article. I would contribute in this manner, but, even though I live in Melbourne, I have not heard a single news service refer to this figure -- not even the most tabloid of tabloids, the Herald-Sun, so I don't know where the editors got this from, but I do urge them to correct it. 220.238.18.235 (talk) 03:02, 10 February 2009 (UTC) user:aragond


 * I agree. Commercial sources have been predisposed with the bushfires and the ABC is busy providing that amazing radio service, they've even brought in TV personell to help. So I think we should just wait it out, I'm sure the correct figures will eventually come out regarding the heatwave. Nick carson (talk) 03:06, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Highest temperature
I think 48.8 on Saturday 7 Feb at Hopetoun is the highest so far. See Stumps (talk) 04:55, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm inclined to trust the BoM above the australian. Nick carson (talk) 15:39, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

BOM Report
The BOM have just released a detailed report on the heatwave, and how it compares to other records and events. I don't have time to add anything in right now, but the document is here. They've also stated they'll release one on how the weather affected the fires, at a later date. Mostlyharmless (talk) 23:52, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Same report (just that it now includes the second week) that was out just after the first week of the heat wave and it's sourced within the article as well. Bidgee (talk) 05:42, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Water Catchments
I think there should be a subheading under "Effects" regarding the short and long term impact to the water catchments and reservoirs of the Melbourne area. Apart from that immediately posed by the fires, there is the problem of the next major rain washing all the ash and, more importantly, the flame retardant chemicals used, into the reservoirs. Apparently this happened after the Canberra bushfire in 2003, and they still haven't regained potable water standards. I haven't got time to do full research on this, but read |this opinion piece in The Age. Rolf Schmidt (talk) 21:41, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, maybe this should (also) go under the "Consequences" heading for the February 7 Victorian bushfires page. Rolf Schmidt (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:44, 11 February 2009 (UTC).

Add previous records
A number of the record temperatures are much higher than the previous ones&mdash;in Avalon and Ballarat they were both 2.1° higher than the previous record. I've updated for Avalon, Ballarat and Melbourne, but it would be a good idea for someone to do the others before the BoM updates their record pages. Groogle (talk) 01:32, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Detailed Melbourne temperature graph
I am about to add a graph which shows 20 days of Melbourne temperature in greater detail. This image has had its public domain copyright status verified and archived in the OTRS system. If readers click on the thumbnail, they will see the full version. The descriptive text there points them to a still more detailed version with separate graphs for each day. I am not thrilled about the layout of having it on the right. Can anyone suggest a better layout? Alternatively, if there is objection to having even a thumbnail image on the page itself, should I replace it with a little text linking to (via a ref) to the image at commons.wikimedia.org? Robin Whittle (talk) 04:52, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

States
Can a section be wrote about each state? -- Aaroncrick (Tassie talk) 05:22, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Not sure yet, let's just bide our time for now. Nick carson (talk) 09:18, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Casualties Update
We've stalled on 6 confirmed and 126 suspected. I know we and the rest of the world has been focussed on the bushfires, but let's make sure we uncover this information. I'll do some searching through some of the more reliable sources. The last thing we want is an unsubstantiated claim. Nick carson (talk) 09:24, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The age reported on the 22nd of Feb that a researcher at Monash Uni had analysed figures and estimates that around 100 people died in Melbourne and 200 across south-eastern Australia. These estimates are supported by figures from Ambulance Victoria and several hospitals, funeral homes, etc. They also report that the DHS are preparing a report on the heatwave. Considering we've had 3 heatwaves result in over 200 casualties, 2 of those over 400, and this has been on par at least with those prior heatwaves, I don't find the reported estimates surprising. Nick carson (talk) 15:36, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Anatomy of a Firestorm article by William Kininmonth
I have added a link at the bottom to this interesting artcle in The Age 26 February 2009. I don't have time add quote from it in this Wikipedia article, but maybe someone else will do this. It describes overall weather patterns and descending air from the middle atmosphere being heated by compression. I don't understand the mechanism behind this, but the air sure felt to me as if it had been heated by something other than sunlight! William Kininmonth is a climatologist and there is a Wikipedia page for him. He beleives that natural variation is a more important factor than greenhouse gasses in extreme weather events such as this. Robin Whittle (talk) 00:35, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the link! I'll try and incorporate it when I have more time. I don't doubt William Kininmonth is right and knows a fair bit more than most of us on the subject, but anthropogenic climate change is never suspected as the sole cause of these extreme weather events (that's just a misnomer or exaggeration or both) but an extra helping hand that pushes these extreme weather events a bit further than they would naturally go, increasing their severity to a given extent. Nick carson (talk) 13:39, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

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Requested move 19 November 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

Moved. See general agreement below to return to the original title for now. Have a Great Day and Happy Publishing! (nac by page mover)  Paine Ellsworth , ed. put'r there 01:50, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Early 2009 southeastern Australia heat wave → 2009 Southeastern Australia heat wave – Move back to the original title that there will be a sole primary topic on this article. ApprenticeFan  work  02:28, 19 November 2018 (UTC) --Relisted. –Ammarpad (talk) 06:54, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose – just because the article about the other 2009 southeastern Australia heatwave was deleted, that doesn't mean it didn't happen, so the proposed title is ambiguous. I'd also oppose the capitalisation change per above. Graham 87 06:43, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Support Per nom. As the other article from the same year was deleted, currently this is the primary topic for year/location.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 15:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Support – we don't do "preemptive disambiguation" on Wikipedia. If the other article is ever recreated, we can worry about disambiguating them then, not before. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:16, 5 December 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
 * I've lowercased "southeastern" in the title again since I was the only one to mention the discussion about capitalisation above and it lines up with the spirit of the requested move. Graham 87 06:49, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Came back this morning, looked at WP:TITLEFORMAT and proceeded to decap "southeastern" – it had already been done! Two great minds  Paine Ellsworth , ed.  put'r there  14:51, 6 December 2018 (UTC)