Talk:Alternative fuel vehicle

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This article contains the following observation :

The term "'Alternative Fuel Cars' refers to cars that run on Alternative fuel; any method of powering an engine that does not involve petroleum. The term car may be used for different types of vehicles, starting from light three wheeled vehicles to road trains".

There is no method of fueling an (internal combustion) engine which does not somewhere along the line involve petroleum. The only question is that of degree. Often this involvement is behind the scene and must be dug into persistently rather than simply seen immediatley or off-hand.

Other types of alternatively fueled engines exist which in a similar fashion obscure their dependence -- to one degree or another -- on petroleum.


 * That's an odd statement. I guess if you look far enough back along the chain, you'll find something that wouldn't have happened without petroleum - but it's a bit of a stretch.  If I fuel my car with propane gas (as my father did for many years) - I'd be using an alternative fuel in a regular internal combustion engine.  The propane might have been made as a byproduct of petroleum distillation - but a lot of propane is extracted from natural gas - which is totally unrelated to petroleum - there are plenty of natural gas wells that produce no oil whatever.  So if my local source of propane happens to come from natural gas then no petroleum was directly involved.


 * I guess you are going to argue that the truck that delivered the propane to the dealer was fuelled by petroleum products - or that the man who runs the propane extraction stage at the natural gas well drove to work in a petroleum vehicle or that the paint on the propane storage tank was made from oil. Therefore (you will probably argue) petroleum was involved somehow in the process.  But that's a ludicrous argument - you might as well say that there are no alternative fuels that don't rely on cheese because the guy who runs the propane production plant eats cheese sandwiches for his lunch.  Everything on the entire planet has some connection (however tenuous) to everything else on the planet.  So if you are arguing for a really indirect connection then this is a true-ism - it's so obvious that it doesn't need to be said.


 * So let's assume you aren't talking about really indirect contributions from petroleum. In that case, you are definitely wrong.  There are hydrogen-fuelled cars that get their hydrogen by the electrolysis of water using electricity that comes from nuclear power which in turn is fuelled by uranium isotopes that are obtained by refining naturally occurring uranium using gas-centrifuges that are powered by electricity that comes from other nuclear power stations.  This would be an example of an alternative fuel (Hydrogen) which is burned in an internal combustion engine - where no petroleum whatever was directly involved in the production process.  Of course you could argue that the bearings on the gas centrifuge were lubricated with oil that was refined from petroleum...but as I said, if you are looking at such indirect sources then you might equally argue that all cars are run on fuels that are ultimately derived from cheese - which is not something worth mentioning.


 * SteveBaker 22:12, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Photo locations
I moved some of the photos around, and cleaned up a couple of the links. I don't think that all the photos needed to be on the right-hand side. I think this makes the article a little more visually interesting. Bry9000 (talk) 05:36, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Brazilianethanolposter.JPG
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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Electric not a "fuel"
electric vehicles do not use a alternative fuel. Its merely electrical storage, it does not involve burning of a energetic substance.

Therefore, the article should be made in line with the green vehicle article and electric-section should be moved to there. Alternative fuel vehicle should be linked at this page aswell. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.245.167.2 (talk) 14:36, 12 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Certainly the article needs improvement, but "alternative fuel vehicle" includes many types of vehicles, including advance technology vehicles. Also is truth that "alternative fuel" is more limited in scope. However, remember that at Wiki common use prevails over more technical terms. See Wiki definition of fuel: it is any material that is burned or altered in order to obtain energy and to heat or to move an object..--Mariordo (talk) 23:43, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think fuel is or should be read so narrowly. Certainly electric vehicles are commonly considered alternatively fueled vehicles in the literature and in popular use. Shadowjams (talk) 00:13, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Merge from Automobile propulsion technologies
These cover the same material, and I don't see any distinction between the two, nor is there any support in reliable sources that there is a difference between the two titles. The content fork makes it hard to keep the information accurate, produces possible contradictions, and makes it confusing to readers.

This is a classic example of the merge criteria. Shadowjams (talk) 00:12, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, but merte TO Automobile propulsion technologies (better name imho).--Kozuch (talk) 11:12, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
 *  Strongly opposed. Even though the content is mixed up, Automobile propulsion technologies content is not right since included content that belongs to Alternative fuel vehicle. As an example, alternative fuels should not be included in propulsion technologies, as gasoline engine tecnology can ran on several fuels properly adjusted. Furthermore, just google and you will see that the common use of alternative fuel vehicles included alternative technologies also .-Mariordo (talk)
 * I don't understand your point. Can you explain why you believe the two are different enough to warrant a fork? Shadowjams (talk) 05:43, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Rather request Afd: I read it carefully, and on a second though, the title is not related with the content, this guy created a small mirror version of this article. Because it was recently created I would rather go for requesting a deletion (AfD). What do you think?-Mariordo (talk) 00:55, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I tagged it for a non-controversial AfD today.--Mariordo (talk) 17:48, 4 July 2010 (UTC)


 * PROD isn't the same as AFD, and a deletion nomination isn't necessary for articles to be merged or redirected. I've removed the template although you could still nominate for AFD. They are separate articles; Alternative fuel vehicle specifically about alternatives to petrol or diesel, and Automobile propulsion technologies is a general article about technologies, including alternative fuels.  Maybe articles could be merged, but Automobile propulsion technologies to Vehicle propulsion would be a better target.  If Automobile propulsion technologies is kept separate, it should probably include some historical information in the lead section. snigbrook (talk) 19:17, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

P.S can you put this into more understandable words please xx thank you xx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.89.6 (talk) 18:56, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

How to align the bottom of the images?
Hi, I added Trev model images. For a better look I tried to make them even in height, but I could not manage that. May be you can help? 3DRivers (talk) 12:53, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I will be glad to help you, in fact I tried to do it myself, but the image returns a red link, meaning that it does not exist (and that is why I remove it). Can you point its location for me please (provide the link of the page where it is located).-Mariordo (talk) 22:47, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your help, image names are Trev_solar_car.png and Trev_solar_car2.png http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Trev_solar_car.png http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Trev_solar_car2.png 3DRivers (talk) 14:06, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Done, but the only way was vertical. Two image is too much for a general article (see Wikipedia:Undue weight). Why don't you choose one, and use the two in the car's specific article.-Mariordo (talk) 04:38, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

You are right, two may be too much. I will go ahead and delete one. I am so sorry - I have had to delete it before you aligned the images! Thanks for your help :) 3DRivers (talk) 12:29, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Nitrous oxide and syngas-powered car
Cars running on either syngas or the combination ethanol-nitrous oxide (flexible-fuel vehicle) should be mentioned. See also http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/biofuels/garbage-powered-car1.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.116.161 (talk) 09:55, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Battery electric vehicles
Perhaps that the reducing of the battery capacity may be mentioned at the battery-electric vehicle section ? See Talk:Hybrid_vehicle 91.182.169.17 (talk) 07:07, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Engine control unit altering
Can we mention something about the engine control unit altering ?

A gasoline engine car that has its tank filled with say ethanol, rather than gasoline for which the engine was initially designed, will run worse and the engine would require more maintenance if the fuel injection timing and amount of fuel sprayed into it hasn't been changed. Using a carburettor instead of direct injection (which uses needle valves) is off course the easy way to do it, but not many people will want to convert their car by removing the direct injection needles and swapping the whole thing for a carburettor.

I read https://www.defcon.org/images/defcon-15/dc15-presentations/dc-15-higbee.pdf and found some companies/products in it which could be mentioned, however I don't want to promote commercial companies off course (adhering to wiki policy), and another issue is that not all products made may be universally used. It seems that there are different ECU's and software loaded unto one ECU may not work on others -see http://www.romraider.com/ - (so we best just mention only those things that are univerally usable). I assume this requires replacing the ECU alltogether with one that works on all engines, and using (open-source) software that runs on this (preferably open) hardware. Settings should be changable so that a wide range of fuels can be run optimally on any engine (injection timing and amount of fuel per spray being settable freely)

As such, romraider all ready falls out of the boat (as not universal). Same goes for OpenPort/ECuFlash (see http://www.tactrix.com/ and http://www.openecu.org/index.php?title=Main_Page ) Leaves just the VEMS ECU V3 and the MicroSquirt. None of these are open hardware though, nor do they use open source ECU software I think and I also don't know what software they are able to communicate with open source pc software like Enginuity (there's also ECUedit but that's not open-source).

There are some open-source ECU's btw ([rusEfi http://rusefi.com], SECU-3) but I don't know whether the timing and fuel amount per spray can be set with that.

Finally, there's also Coolingmist, Devils own, Snow performance, and Aquamist but these too are not open-source, and I doubt that they can be set to inject a certain amount of fuel (settable), or change the spray timing (they're just intented for injecting water to the engine appearantly; which seems to be a technique to cool the engine). See Water_injection_(engine). KVDP (talk) 13:07, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

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How about a comparison table?
I was reading the article and thought that it is essentially a long list of comparable technologies. The comparison could be easier for readers if the most interesting information was put into a table. ——Nikolas Ojala (talk) 17:32, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

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Content cut from article
Hi everyone. I've started to trim some outdated, trivial, promotional, and unsourced content from this article. The stuff I'm removing is below. Please let me know if you object to anything.


 * Hydrogen section

Buses, trains, PHB bicycles, canal boats, cargo bikes, golf carts, motorcycles, wheelchairs, ships, airplanes, submarines, and rockets can already run on hydrogen, in various forms. NASA used hydrogen to launch Space Shuttles into space. A working toy model car runs on solar power, using a regenerative fuel cell to store energy in the form of hydrogen and oxygen gas. It can then convert the fuel back into water to release the solar energy. BMW's Clean Energy internal combustion hydrogen car has more power and is faster than hydrogen fuel cell electric cars. A limited series production of the 7 Series Saloon was announced as commencing at the end of 2006. A BMW hydrogen prototype (H2R) using the driveline of this model broke the speed record for hydrogen cars at 300 km/h (186 mi/h), making automotive history. Mazda has developed Wankel engines to burn hydrogen. The Wankel uses a rotary principle of operation, so the hydrogen burns in a different part of the engine from the intake. This reduces pre-detonation, a problem with hydrogen fueled piston engines. [citation needed]

The other major car companies like Daimler, Chrysler, Honda, Toyota, Ford and General Motors, are investing in hydrogen fuel cells instead. VW, Nissan, and Hyundai/Kia also have fuel cell vehicle prototypes on the road. In addition, transit agencies across the globe are running prototype fuel cell buses. Fuel cell vehicles, such as the new Honda Clarity, can get up to 70 miles (110 km) on a kilogram of hydrogen. [citation needed]

Honda introduced its fuel cell vehicle in 1999 called the FCX and have since then introduced the second generation FCX Clarity. Limited marketing of the FCX Clarity, based on the 2007 concept model, began in June 2008 in the United States, and it was introduced in Japan in November 2008. The FCX Clarity was available in the U.S. only in Los Angeles Area, where 16 hydrogen filling stations are available, and until July 2009, only 10 drivers have leased the Clarity for US$600 a month. At the 2012 World Hydrogen Energy Conference, Daimler AG, Honda, Hyundai and Toyota all confirmed plans to produce hydrogen fuel cell vehicles for sale by 2015, with some types planned to enter the showroom in 2013. From 2008 to 2014, Honda leased a total of 45 FCX units in the US.

The Hyundai ix35 FCEV fuel cell vehicle is available for lease in the U.S. In 2014, a total of 54 units were leased. Sales of the Toyota Mirai to government and corporate customers began in Japan on December 15, 2014. Toyota delivered the first market placed Mirai to the Prime Minister's Official Residence and announced it got 1,500 orders in Japan in one month after sales began against a sales target of 400 for 12 months.

Deliveries to retail customers began in California in October 2015. A total of 57 units were delivered between October and November 2015. Toyota scheduled to release the Mirai in the Northeastern States in the first half of 2016. The market launch in Europe is slated for September 2015.

Clayoquot (talk &#124; contribs) 20:44, 20 September 2023 (UTC)


 * More low-importance detail cut from the Compressed natural gas section:
 * In 2006 the Brazilian subsidiary of FIAT introduced the Fiat Siena Tetra fuel, a four-fuel car developed under Magneti Marelli of Fiat Brazil. This automobile can run on 100% ethanol (E100), E25 (Brazil's normal ethanol gasoline blend), pure gasoline (not available in Brazil), and natural gas, and switches from the gasoline-ethanol blend to CNG automatically, depending on the power required by road conditions. Other existing option is to retrofit an ethanol flexible-fuel vehicle to add a natural gas tank and the corresponding injection system. Some taxicabs in São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, run on this option, allowing the user to choose among three fuels (E25, E100 and CNG) according to current market prices at the pump. Vehicles with this adaptation are known in Brazil as "tri-fuel" cars.
 * And the following which is unsourced and not about vehicles per se:
 * HCNG or hydrogen enriched compressed natural gas for automobile use is premixed at the hydrogen station.
 * Clayoquot (talk &#124; contribs) 20:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * More manufacturer-specific content cut from the Autogas section:
 * Hyundai Motor Company began sales of the Elantra LPI Hybrid in the South Korean domestic market in July 2009. The Elantra LPI (Liquefied Petroleum Injected) is the world's first hybrid electric vehicle to be powered by an internal combustion engine built to run on liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) as a fuel. Clayoquot (talk &#124; contribs) 20:28, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Old solar car content
I've removed the following as it is unsourced and about demonstration-phase technology. Solar vehicle technology has moved to the commercialization phase. Clayoquot (talk &#124; contribs) 20:12, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

The North American Solar Challenge is a solar car race across North America. Originally called Sunrayce, organized and sponsored by General Motors in 1990, it was renamed American Solar Challenge in 2001, sponsored by the United States Department of Energy and the National Renewable Energy Laboratory. Teams from universities in the United States and Canada compete in a long distance test of endurance as well as efficiency, driving thousands of miles on regular highways.

Nuna is the name of a series of manned solar powered vehicles that won the World solar challenge in Australia three times in a row, in 2001 (Nuna 1 or just Nuna), 2003 (Nuna 2) and 2005 (Nuna 3). The Nunas are built by students of the Delft University of Technology.

The World solar challenge is a solar powered car race over 3021 km through central Australia from Darwin to Adelaide. The race attracts teams from around the world, most of which are fielded by universities or corporations although some are fielded by high schools.

Trev (two-seater renewable energy vehicle) was designed by the staff and students at the University of South Australia. Trev was first displayed at the 2005 World Solar Challenge as the concept of a low-mass, efficient commuter car. With 3 wheels and a mass of about 300 kg, the prototype car had maximum speed of 120 km/h and acceleration of 0–100 km/h in about 10 seconds. The running cost of Trev is projected to be less than 1/10 of the running cost of a small petrol car.

Clayoquot (talk &#124; contribs) 20:12, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Fuel pathways diagram
I've removed this diagram as it's very big and not very informative. Happy to discuss if anyone wants to keep it.



Clayoquot (talk &#124; contribs) 17:25, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Hydrogen photos
We have four pictures of hydrogen cars: every single model that has ever been commercially produced, plus one that never got out of the concept stage. Seems a bit excessive. I'm planning to remove them all except the Mirai, which IMHO has the most interesting story.



Clayoquot (talk &#124; contribs) 18:07, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Proposal to trim the Flexible-fuel vehicle section
The section on Flexible-fuel vehicles has a lot of detail in it that could be useful in the main Flexible-fuel vehicle article, but that think is too much detail for a broad article like this one. I'm planning to cut the following content; please let me know if you disagree: Clayoquot (talk &#124; contribs) 18:27, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

In addition to flex-fuel vehicles running with ethanol, in the US and Europe there were successful test programs with methanol flex-fuel vehicles, known as M85 FFVs, and more recently there have been also successful tests using p-series fuels with E85 flex fuel vehicles, but as of June 2008, this fuel is not yet available to the general public.

The alcohol content might be reduced during the winter, to E70 in the U.S. or to E75 in Sweden. Brazil, with a warmer climate, developed vehicles that can run on any mix up to E100, though E20-E25 is the mandatory minimum blend, and no pure gasoline is sold in the country.This is thought to be due to a number of factors, including:


 * The appearance of flex-fuel and non-flex-fuel vehicles is identical;
 * There is no price difference between a pure-gasoline vehicle and its flex-fuel variant;
 * The lack of consumer awareness of flex-fuel vehicles;
 * The lack of promotion of flex-fuel vehicles by American automakers, who often do not label the cars or market them in the same way they do to hybrid cars

By contrast, automakers selling FFVs in Brazil commonly affix badges advertising the car as a flex-fuel vehicle. As of 2007, new FFV models sold in the U.S. were required to feature a yellow gas cap emblazoned with the label "E85/gasoline", in order to remind drivers of the cars' flex-fuel capabilities. Use of E85 in the U.S. is also affected by the relatively low number of E85 filling stations in operation across the country, with just over 1,750 in August 2008, most of which are concentrated in the Corn Belt states, led by Minnesota with 353 stations, followed by Illinois with 181, and Wisconsin with 114. By comparison, there are some 120,000 stations providing regular non-ethanol gasoline in the United States alone. In the United States, E85 FFVs are equipped with sensor that automatically detect the fuel mixture, signaling the ECU to tune spark timing and fuel injection so that fuel will burn cleanly in the vehicle's internal combustion engine. Originally, the sensors were mounted in the fuel line and exhaust system; more recent models do away with the fuel line sensor. Another feature of older flex-fuel cars is a small separate gasoline storage tank that was used for starting the car on cold days, when the ethanol mixture made ignition more difficult. Modern Brazilian flex-fuel technology enables FFVs to run an any blend between E20-E25 gasohol and E100 ethanol fuel, using a lambda probe to measure the quality of combustion, which informs the engine control unit as to the exact composition of the gasoline-alcohol mixture. This technology, developed by the Brazilian subsidiary of Bosch in 1994, and further improved and commercially implemented in 2003 by the Italian subsidiary of Magneti Marelli, is known as "Software Fuel Sensor". The Brazilian subsidiary of Delphi Automotive Systems developed a similar technology, known as "Multifuel", based on research conducted at its facility in Piracicaba, São Paulo. This technology allows the controller to regulate the amount of fuel injected and spark time, as fuel flow needs to be decreased to avoid detonation due to the high compression ratio (around 12:1) used by flex-fuel engines.

The first flex motorcycle was launched by Honda in March 2009. Produced by its Brazilian subsidiary Moto Honda da Amazônia, the CG 150 Titan Mix is sold for around US$2,700. Because the motorcycle does not have a secondary gas tank for a cold start like the Brazilian flex cars do, the tank must have at least 20% of gasoline to avoid start up problems at temperatures below 15 °C (59 °F). The motorcycle's panel includes a gauge to warn the driver about the actual ethanol-gasoline mix in the storage tank. Clayoquot (talk &#124; contribs) 18:27, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Proposal to trim the Hybrid section
The section on Hybrid vehicles has a lot of manufacturer-specific detail. I'm planning to cut the following content; please let me know if you disagree:

By 2017 the Prius is sold in more than 90 countries and regions, with Japan and the United States as its largest markets. In May 2008, global cumulative Prius sales reached the 1 million units, and by September 2010, the Prius reached worldwide cumulative sales of 2 million units, and 3 million units by June 2013. , global hybrid sales are led by the Prius family, with cumulative sales of 6.0361 million units, excluding its plug-in hybrid variant. The Toyota Prius liftback is the leading model of the Toyota brand with cumulative sales of 3.985 million units, followed by the Toyota Aqua/Prius c, with global sales of 1.380 million units, the Prius v/α/+ with 671,200, the Camry Hybrid with 614,700 units, the Toyota Auris with 378,000 units, and the Toyota Yaris Hybrid with 302,700. The best-selling Lexus model is the Lexus RX 400h/RX 450h with global sales of 363,000 units.

The Honda Insight is a two-seater hatchback hybrid automobile manufactured by Honda. It was the first mass-produced hybrid automobile sold in the United States, introduced in 1999, and produced until 2006. Honda introduced the second-generation Insight in Japan in February 2009, and the new Insight went on sale in the United States on April 22, 2009. Honda also offers the Honda Civic Hybrid since 2002.

, Japan ranked as the market leader with more than 5 million hybrids sold, followed by the United States with cumulative sales of over 4 million units since 1999, and Europe with about 1.5 million hybrids delivered since 2000. Japan has the world's highest hybrid market penetration. By 2013 the hybrid market share accounted for more than 30% of new standard passenger car sold, and about 20% new passenger vehicle sales including kei cars. The Netherlands ranks second with a hybrid market share of 4.5% of new car sales in 2012.

, global sales are by Toyota Motor Company with more than 10 million Lexus and Toyota hybrids sold, followed by Honda Motor Co., Ltd. with cumulative global sales of more than 1.35 million hybrids ;  Ford Motor Corporation with over 424 thousand hybrids sold in the United States through June 2015, of which, around 10% are plug-in hybrids;     Hyundai Group with cumulative global sales of 200 thousand hybrids, including both Hyundai Motors and Kia Motors hybrid models; and PSA Peugeot Citroën with over 50,000 diesel-powered hybrids sold in Europe through December 2013.

The Elantra LPI Hybrid, launched in the South Korean domestic market in July 2009, is a hybrid vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine built to run on liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) as a fuel. The Elantra PLI is a mild hybrid and the first hybrid to adopt advanced lithium polymer (Li–Poly) batteries. Clayoquot (talk &#124; contribs) 21:30, 27 September 2023 (UTC)