Talk:Betty White/Archive 2

Lutheran
Is Betty White really a Lutheran? I heard she hates the Greek Orthodox Church and the pope too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.228.37.81 (talk) 06:41, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Can she speak Greek? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.185.156.167 (talk) 00:55, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Randwolfray, 18 June 2010
Please add "Diagnosis Murder (1994)" to Television under Filmography for Betty White, because she starred in the December, 1994 episode titled Death By Extermination. Googling Betty White Diagnosis Murder will bring up many sources for verification. Randwolfray (talk) 05:33, 18 June 2010 (UTC)


 * This has been ✅. Thank you.  Mike   Allen  05:52, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Should be some mention of her nude playing card, no? Kelly.terry.jones (talk) 17:45, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Author and memoribilia
She is also a author and has written books and just got a new book deal. Let's not forget to add that with this article. Also everything that has her face or name on it as seemed to skyrocket. This should be include just based on the fact that she's a icon and other wikipeida pages of icons include this information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.2.191.35 (talk) 18:23, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Betty White and Allen Ludden
As written in her book, and stated in numerous interviews, Betty White met her husband, Allen Ludden, on his show Password in 1961, not on the Jack Paar show as noted on this page.

MRaiDua (talk) 06:38, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I verified the appearance of Betty & Allen on What's My Line through a video clip posted on YouTube. Since WP blocks YouTube links I couldn't include it as an official reference, but the segment is there (as of July 10, 2011) for everyone to see at youtu.be/upofiPa8od8. Nymatis (talk) 02:32, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Just got done watching the episode of Inside the Actor's Studio with Betty White and came here, about ten and a half minutes into the program, she states that Allen Ludden died of bladder cancer, not stomach cancer.

She misspoke on that occasion. Two of her books, "Here We Go Again" and "Betty White in Person," state that he was diagnosed with stomach cancer.

Time 100 images
Here are a few different head shots to choose from. -- David  Shankbone  23:11, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism on Betty White page
I'm fairly certain this is not accurate, but wasn't sure how to correct it, since the paragraph would not flow quite right if deleted. Can someone fix?

"200 B C - 1200 A D White was born to the proud parents of Adam & Eve White. She left home at an early age, to assist Noah, there aging neighbor by caring for his large collection of animals while residing on a self constructed sea vessel."

Incorrect information in early career?
Under the first section of her career, it says Betty found work modeling after high school, but in a recent interview on the David Letterman show, she was shown a picture of herself from her younger years and David asked if it was from a modeling shoot, to which she replied, "No, I've never modeled in my life." Should this remark from her early career be removed? The David Letterman interview is available on YouTube and dated January 18, 2011.  neth net  &trade;  23:41, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Second divorce
The infobox says 1949, the body of the article says 1953. Flatterworld (talk) 01:08, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Awards and Books
Betty White actually has just received a Grammy Award for Best Spoken Word Album, So that needs to be added in. And at the bottom of the page where it says "Books by White" about 2 weeks ago she just published another book. This is the name of the book "Betty & Friends: My Life at the Zoo" Also for the awards in 1952 Betty won the Emmy award for best actress, she got nominated in 1951 also (the 1951 part is correct on here). But the 1952 Emmy should be added. She talks about it in many interviews and books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.230.27.14 (talk) 03:57, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Awards
Betty White has just received 2 SAG awards ( Screen actors guild ). One for Hot in Cleveland and the other for "The Lost Valentine." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.230.27.14 (talk) 00:47, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

move to california
The article says that the family moved to Los Angeles during the Great Depression. They are listed in the 1930 census dated April 17, 1930 as living in Los Angeles, so they must have arrive fairly early in the depression. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Portzer (talk • contribs) 04:58, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Grammy Award
She has won the Grammy award she was nominated for, congrats Betty White, now an official Grammy Winner! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raveonforever (talk • contribs) 22:41, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Music video/The Lifeline Program
IS:

In September 2011, she teamed up with English singer Luciana to produce a remix of her song "I'm Still Hot". The song was released digitally on September 22, 2011[32] and the video later premiered on October 6, 2011. It was made for a campaign for a life setttlement program, The Lifeline.

SHOULD BE:

In September 2011, she teamed up with English singer Luciana to produce a remix of her song "I'm Still Hot". The song was released digitally on September 22, 2011[32] and the video later premiered on October 6, 2011. It was made for a campaign for a life settlement company, The Lifeline Program.

i heard she just died in her sleep 67.88.44.146 (talk) 17:57, 2 March 2012 (UTC)3/2/12

Filmography error
The filmography lists the 1959 movie Santa Claus. I fixed the link (which was pointing to the main Santa Claus page), but can anyone confirm that Ms. White was actually in that bizarre movie? I can't find any references to this on the web. I suspect it's wrong. MrRK (talk) 17:35, 20 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I trawled through the history, and it seems it was added with this edit, when converting from columns to a list. It didn't appear before, so I am assuming it was either a mistake or well hidden vandalism. Either way, it's okay to remove it.  Clay  Clay  Clay  18:14, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Filmography Edit Request
Correct me if I'm wrong (nicely), but I've been watching repeats of The Love Boat on TV recently and there were a number of episodes with Betty White in them. She was with Carol Channing, and played an aging show-girl. I believe the years were 1981, 1982, 1984 and 1985. I believe this should be added to her filmography, especially as there is another page on wikipedia that lists her as a star on the show. Even if you type "Betty White Love Boat" into google, this can be verified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.201.73.61 (talk) 04:24, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

1952 Emmy
The article presently states: " Although several sources state White won an Emmy for the show ["Life with Elizabeth"] this appears to be incorrect, and may be a matter of confusing the 1950 nomination with a win." Aside from being speculative, that's obviously incorrect; on multiple occasions White has given a detailed account of the win in question. A little informal research on the issue suggests that what White is remembering is a local Emmy for Los Angeles, which is the only regional Emmy presented by the same organization that handles the Primetime Emmys, but isn't quite the same thing. Unfortunately, I can't find anything that seems to qualify as a credible source for this suggestion. Other editors with more resources and more patience may wish to look into the matter. 76.179.179.249 (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request from Ellsworthpc, 1 February 2011
I posted the information about the time slot win for the Last Valentine which starred Betty and there is a citation request. Here is the source for the information:

http://www.rbr.com/tv-cable/tv-cable_ratings/cbs-s-the-lost-valentine-starring-betty-white-wins-time-slot.html

Ellsworthpc (talk) 18:33, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Done Thanks! Qwyrxian (talk) 05:01, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 21 July 2012
The Betty White page has an error in it that needs to be removed. Under "Early Life" it says she died on July 22,2012 (which is tomorrow) of a heart attack! Please delete this sentence.

Thank you! 97.125.206.216 (talk) 18:02, 21 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes check.svg Done Rivertorch (talk) 18:27, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Age and active career
I don't know the subject of Betty White well enough to comment, but I think there's some things wrong with the article:

Born in 1922 (age 91) - which seems right from other sites

Years active: from 1912 - that can't be right?

"has become the oldest nominee as of 2013, aged 111" - which would mean she was born in 1902?

--Flaxton (talk) 21:43, 3 November 2013 (UTC)


 * It is an ongoing struggle to keep vandalism out of this article, and it probably should be indefinitely semi-protected. Most of it is stuff like date changes that the bots don't catch, I don't always see it, and there don't seem to be a lot of highly active editors watching it. Please make sure it's on your watchlist, and do revert any unsourced changes to the vital stats. Rivertorch (talk) 05:23, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, she's such a hot personality these days, it's unprecedented for anyone that age but George Burns and Bob Hope. And her career has elements that are hard to believe to begin with, like the all-afternoon TV talk show she hosted for a while in the '50s. the early part of the run with no guests, just her talking to the camera for hours. A great source for her early career is television historian Kliph Nesteroff's online article "The Early Betty White."  Jack Breeze (talk) 14:49, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Death?
Okay, I can't find any valid sources, but I heard on the radio (this may be a mistake) that Betty White has just died! I KNOW if this were the case that I'd find it elsewhere in the internet, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.235.90.5 (talk) 22:38, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Sigh. No it's not the case at all.  It's completely false, untrue and distasteful.    Mike   Allen   23:18, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Its not sistasteful to inquire about someones passing. All I see here is a person asking for clarification about something they heard. No need to jump all over them.--Jojhutton (talk) 23:42, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This isn't a forum.  It's so simple to enter "Betty White dies" into Google News and see what happens.  Also, I would stop listening to that radio station.  Thank you. Mike   Allen   00:41, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Looked like a simple content question to me. But if one were to simply go ahead and assume bad faith right from the begining, then I could see how one might act that way toward another.--Jojhutton (talk) 01:28, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The "completely false, untrue, and distasteful" is aimed at the radio station. Perhaps you should check you own faith towards others.   Mike   Allen   01:57, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps there should have been a more clear clarification, rather than assuming what was actually broadcast over the airwaves. I was not privy to any broadcast, but it doesn't matter, only what is in or out of the article matters, and it was only a simple question that didn't need to be answered in such a harsh manner. I'm done.--Jojhutton (talk) 02:05, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to talk on here but can a moderator fix the death section on her page, it's still claiming she died september 10th and then shows an error about punctuation, Betty is still very much alive. (Sorry if I failed to follow guidelines, remove this if you must but please fix the page!) - Guest named Kev — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.14.234.179 (talk) 19:32, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Her age and death are being exaggerated again. Rats. Checkingfax (talk) 03:19, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Age and active career
I don't know the subject of Betty White well enough to comment, but I think there's some things wrong with the article:

Born in 1922 (age 91) - which seems right from other sites

Years active: from 1912 - that can't be right?

"has become the oldest nominee as of 2013, aged 111" - which would mean she was born in 1902?

--Flaxton (talk) 21:43, 3 November 2013 (UTC)


 * It is an ongoing struggle to keep vandalism out of this article, and it probably should be indefinitely semi-protected. Most of it is stuff like date changes that the bots don't catch, I don't always see it, and there don't seem to be a lot of highly active editors watching it. Please make sure it's on your watchlist, and do revert any unsourced changes to the vital stats. Rivertorch (talk) 05:23, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, she's such a hot personality these days, it's unprecedented for anyone that age but George Burns and Bob Hope. And her career has elements that are hard to believe to begin with, like the all-afternoon TV talk show she hosted for a while in the '50s. the early part of the run with no guests, just her talking to the camera for hours. A great source for her early career is television historian Kliph Nesteroff's online article "The Early Betty White."  Jack Breeze (talk) 14:49, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Death?
Okay, I can't find any valid sources, but I heard on the radio (this may be a mistake) that Betty White has just died! I KNOW if this were the case that I'd find it elsewhere in the internet, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.235.90.5 (talk) 22:38, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Sigh. No it's not the case at all.  It's completely false, untrue and distasteful.    Mike   Allen   23:18, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Its not sistasteful to inquire about someones passing. All I see here is a person asking for clarification about something they heard. No need to jump all over them.--Jojhutton (talk) 23:42, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This isn't a forum.  It's so simple to enter "Betty White dies" into Google News and see what happens.  Also, I would stop listening to that radio station.  Thank you. Mike   Allen   00:41, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Looked like a simple content question to me. But if one were to simply go ahead and assume bad faith right from the begining, then I could see how one might act that way toward another.--Jojhutton (talk) 01:28, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The "completely false, untrue, and distasteful" is aimed at the radio station. Perhaps you should check you own faith towards others.   Mike   Allen   01:57, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps there should have been a more clear clarification, rather than assuming what was actually broadcast over the airwaves. I was not privy to any broadcast, but it doesn't matter, only what is in or out of the article matters, and it was only a simple question that didn't need to be answered in such a harsh manner. I'm done.--Jojhutton (talk) 02:05, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to talk on here but can a moderator fix the death section on her page, it's still claiming she died september 10th and then shows an error about punctuation, Betty is still very much alive. (Sorry if I failed to follow guidelines, remove this if you must but please fix the page!) - Guest named Kev — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.14.234.179 (talk) 19:32, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Her age and death are being exaggerated again. Rats. Checkingfax (talk) 03:19, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Mass Edit
This page needs to be cleaned up badly. There is a lot of useless information that also may contain no sources. For my first round of edits I will do the following:

1. Cut the Entertainment Career section into separate decades (1940s, 1950's) and reworking and removing pointless information. There is no need for something like this to appear "In 2013, White voiced a character on the Disney Channel show Mickey Mouse" and that's it.

2. Build up her Humanitarian career and personal life. Sub sections for her husbands, relationships with other people (MTM and Bea Arthur for instance) and her stance on several issues. Things like "In 2011, White appeared in the Visit California promotional film on YouTube aimed at boosting tourism from the UK" should appear in the humanitarian section.

3. Create a separate page for her Filmography and add anything missing from it.

if anyone has anymore ideas, post them below. Water78 (talk) 15:23, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't think she's a vegan...
She is an animal activist... but not a vegan as far as I can tell. In particular, there is a video of her eating a hot dog at the opening of a new Pink's Hot Dogs location, while talking about how they were going to name a hot dog after her... and she did NOT mention that it was soy or meatless, which any vegan would. Plus I have seen more than one article interviewing her "Hot in Cleveland" co-stars who mention her eating hot dogs all the time. So I'm pretty sure this is a mistake. I didn't grab links to post because I wasn't sure which ones were the best examples; but you can find plenty of sources if you go to Google and put in "betty white" and "hot dogs" and you'll get all the sources you need. 2605:E000:21D5:1600:511C:D382:CFA7:FC55 (talk) 21:11, 16 October 2016 (UTC)


 * The assertion that she is vegan did not appear to be reliably sourced. In checking other refs in the "Religious views" section, I concluded that none of the sourced cited in the section were reliable, so I removed the whole thing. Here it is:
 * "White is Christian, and is a member of the Unity Church, a liberal New Thought denomination which describes itself as 'positive, practical Christianity.' In addition, she is a self-described ethical vegan."
 * Second opinions welcome. Rivertorch&#39;s Evil Twin (talk) 04:41, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Awards, honors error
She has won 7 Emmy Awards, but the first sentence of the awards section says that she's only won 6. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Apblinn (talk • contribs) 03:11, 8 May 2015 (UTC)


 * She has only technically won 6 competitive Emmys. The seventh was an Emmy award honoring her career achievements. Rcul4u998 (talk) 03:01, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Off Their Rockers
Apparently it is being revived. If this is true, thus article should be updated accordingly.SecretName101 (talk) 10:37, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Incomplete filmography
Television credit for her appearance on Kathy Griffin: My Life on the D-List is missing from this article, which leads me to beleive it has an incomplete filmography.SecretName101 (talk) 10:40, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 December 2021 (2)
Betty White has died at the age of 99 2600:387:C:2D13:0:0:0:9 (talk) 11:14, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting wait.svg Already done firefly  ( t · c ) 11:21, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Friendships
Why is this section in here? It is irrelevant.

Navigate over to the pages for Lucille Ball, Bea Arthur, etc…you won’t find a section on “Friendships”. Kristinafh (talk) 02:41, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I was just doing some clean-up work on that; some have moved to the relevant career sections for the shows they mention behind-the-scenes of. Liberace has been re-tooled to gay rights, which it discusses somewhat more. Kingsif (talk) 02:56, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Regarding the why, it seems to be part of a number of changes in the article layout. This edit reorganized the Personal Life section and ended up starting it.  It was non-standard, but I guess it was tolerated as it was decently sourced and there wasn't that many eyes on the article at that time.  (Also, thank you to Kingsif for keeping as much of the content as possible.)  --Super Goku V (talk) 03:15, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

It flows so much better…thanks!! Kristinafh (talk) 19:18, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 January 2022
Betty’s is not 99 on December 31. She is 100 and died 84 days before her 100th birthday.2601:192:4C7F:C2BB:B524:2E82:BFE3:F02D (talk) 00:21, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Both incorrect--CreecregofLife (talk) 00:34, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 December 2021 (5)
Edit deaths date to December 31 on top of page 173.72.113.157 (talk) 23:39, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime  ( open channel ) 23:41, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 December 2021 (4)
Died 12/31/2021 2601:440:8380:79D0:48A9:81A6:9E6B:F332 (talk) 23:26, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. We know, read the article - FlightTime  ( open channel ) 23:42, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 December 2021 (3)
"Comedian" in the infobox should be lowercased as it is the second list item after the first capitalized 'Actress'. Also, File:Betty White and Barack Obama in the Oval Office.jpg is duplicated, posted twice in the article. 159.33.10.194 (talk) 20:54, 31 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the sharp eye re the repeated image, I've deleted that.
 * Not sure what our style guide is via infobox, so I'll leave that up to others. (Also, I wonder if it refers to her as a comedic actress, or as a panelist and talk show host. Comedian usually implies writer or standup performer.) --  Zanimum (talk) 21:08, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I think this would be considered answered, as the dupe image was taken care of, right?--CreecregofLife (talk) 21:25, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ The capitalization request has been carried out, since guidelines at Template:Infobox person indicate that IP is correct, so I'm closing this now. If "comedian" is removed in favor of another term, that probably should be discussed in its own section. I've got no input there.  Pupsterlove02  talk • contribs 21:32, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Last surviving MTM cast member.
There are still a few reoccurring cast members still alive, such as Gordy the Weatherman as portrayed by the iconic John Amos. 173.73.183.99 (talk) 16:01, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Main cast. (CC) Tb hotch ™ 19:20, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 December 2021
12-31-21 RIP 2601:280:4F00:EBC0:DDA9:5E38:134D:BE9B (talk) 19:13, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: This is not an edit request: the article does mention that she has died. Pupsterlove02  talk • contribs 19:16, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Semi-protection needed as all the Wiki-hounds come out to be the first one to "break the news"... Garchy (talk) 19:21, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I should add, generally protection requests are directed to administrators, the people who can actually protect... Garchy (talk) 19:24, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Died on 30 December

Semi-protected edit request on 31 December 2021 (2)
Her death date is wrong. It is December 31, 2021. Respect the woman! 47.196.79.171 (talk) 19:47, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Please do not make solely emotional comments. This is an encyclopedia that relies on outside sourcing. No one is disrespecting her, much less when preliminary sources indicate either. Zkidwiki (talk) 19:50, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting wait.svg Already done Whatever it had said before, it's correct now. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:05, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 December 2021 (3)
2nd paragraph, last line reads "She is also known"

should say "She was also known" 24.160.125.236 (talk) 20:16, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ Elli (talk &#124; contribs) 20:18, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi Protected Edit Request
In Betty White’s Death section, she is listed as dying in Brentwood CA, in Contra Costa County. However, in the article it states that LAPD responded to the natural death of a 99 year old woman at that address. That must have been a typo as Brentwood and Los Angeles are 8-10 hours away by car. The correct authorities would have been either the Brentwood Police Department or the Contra Costa County Sheriffs Department. 2602:306:3163:3130:E17C:7656:40EB:9541 (talk) 20:35, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Where does it say this? It should be Los Angeles. Brentwood is a neighborhood, and it's not relevant enough for the infobox. Moncrief (talk) 20:38, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It looks like that's already been corrected. —C.Fred (talk) 20:39, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 December 2021
Grammatical error under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_White#Death "White died at her home in the Brentwood on the morning of December 31, 2021, at the age of 99, seventeen days before what would have been her 100th birthday."

There is an extra "the" before "Brentwood" which should be removed and should read as follows:

"White died at her home in Brentwood on the morning of December 31, 2021, at the age of 99, seventeen days before what would have been her 100th birthday." Samjrock (talk) 20:41, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: It's correct in that context: the Brentwood neighborhood of Los Angeles. Brentwood is not a city name, and merely saying "Brentwood" is fine if you live in west L.A., but useless for Wikipedia's global audience. It needs the surrounding context. Moncrief (talk) 20:46, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 December 2021 (2)
Put her death day 2600:6C5A:447F:A851:E896:A7F:BCEC:2440 (talk) 20:45, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:06, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 January 2022 (2)
Change the quote pertaining to Inside the Actors Studio from, "Hello, Betty. Here's Allen" to "Come on in, Betty. Here's Allen." Evidence at 36:57 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GP_nYq_UR0 SophiaPetrilloGG (talk) 14:39, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting wait.svg Already done melecie   t  - 23:05, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

TMZ
i'll say it and shoulder the blame if Im wrong but .... is TMZ a reliable resource? Im skeptical, especially given that just yesterday she was giving an interview with Fox News talking about her upcoming 100th birthday. Thanks, — Soap — 19:23, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Put another way, all reports so far trace back to the TMZ tabloid story.— Soap — 19:24, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I've revert this until we get a source better than TMZ. WP:TMZ says not to use if they are the only source (or in this case, the source everyone else is pointing back to). I strongly recommend not adding it until a more reliable source reports on her death (if it occurreD). --M asem (t) 19:25, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Per WP:TMZ, I'm okay with waiting for a more reliable source before saying she's dead. Prcc27 (talk) 19:29, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Only 3 days ago there was an online death hoax for her (see mediamass article by Jessica Smipson which I couldn't link because the site is blacklisted for details on the hoax) and it's plausible TMZ fell for that. DJK (talk) 19:32, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Deadline Hollywood has confirmed with her agent. Now we're good. --M asem (t) 19:33, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Deadline says her agent says she died Thursday night; Dec 30th, not 31st. Schazjmd   (talk)  19:37, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Needs to be changed to December 30

Needs to be added she died 30th WaPo is hedging: "died during the night of Dec. 30-31". Schazjmd  (talk)  19:42, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

But aren’t we going with what agent said

It’s been 45 minutes and I saw nothing on NBC or CNN’s websites. They certainly have prewritten articles and want to be early to that punch. Zkidwiki (talk) 19:48, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * CNN has it . There's no doubt at this point. --M asem (t) 19:51, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Roflol of course it happened 48 minutes later. But like… they don’t mention confirming it with primary sources. This reporting is so strange. Zkidwiki (talk) 19:55, 31 December 2021 (UTC)


 * www.latimes.com/obituaries/story/2021-12-31/betty-white-dead%3f_amp=true

LA Times has reported she died overnight. Turtleshell3 (talk) 20:00, 31 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Well that was weird, hang on.

https://www.latimes.com/obituaries/story/2021-12-31/betty-white-dead Turtleshell3 (talk) 20:02, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Sources report she died at 9:30AM EST on December 31st.  Bobherry  Talk   Edits  20:09, 31 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Should say police responded at 9:30am, not that she died at that time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.67.98.161 (talk) 20:20, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

City of Brentwood
Check the link to the city of death. There are 2 cities by the name of Brentwood in California. 67.161.54.219 (talk) 20:22, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Brentwood is a neighborhood in Los Angeles, where White lived. The other Brentwood is a nondescript town in northern California. The article should just say Los Angeles in the infobox, as that's the city. Moncrief (talk) 20:35, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Knocking on TMZ
At least with celebrity deaths, TMZ has been very reliable. They were the very first organization to report Betty's death.

They're usually the first ones to report a celebrity's death before any other organization. They continue to post updated information on Betty's death too. 73.65.212.57 (talk) 20:23, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The above comment doesn't really belong here, as it's just an opinion, which is not the point of an article talk page. See WP:TMZ for Wikipedia's stance on TMZ as a source. Moncrief (talk) 20:37, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Per WP:TMZ, there isn't a consensus on if TMZ is a reliable source or an unreliable source. It is noted that TMZ gets cited by reliable sources, but that Wikipedia editors believe it isn't as reliable as those sources.  Unfortunately, this caused a bit of confusion.  --Super Goku V (talk) 20:39, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * This is all space-wasting. Put it on the TMZ talk page. It has nothing to do with this page, since we're not using TMZ as a source anymore. Moncrief (talk) 20:50, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I disagree with your claims. The talk page is an appropriate location to discuss if we should use a source or not.  Additionally, the current revision as I am typing this is using TMZ as a source and regardless of that it was being used as a source when this discussion started.  I do not see a problem with my comment nor this discussion.  --Super Goku V (talk) 21:00, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

cause of death should be narrowed down in article, "preliminary reports indicate death by natural causes"
I think its very important because her death will be widely talked about. Qwesar (talk) 21:32, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

In Death section
There is an unnecessary portion with a link to People Magazine, I was trying to add something to the section with her agent but it came out wrong. Turtleshell3 (talk) 21:47, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * People is a pretty reliable source, no harm in strengthening a statement--CreecregofLife (talk) 21:53, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, forgive me, I wasn't clear. I mean “something” as in a text section regarding her agent's thoughts about her passing. But now the text and I'm wondering if it would be a good fit. Turtleshell3 (talk) 22:00, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Betty white television career
According to buzzfeednews, "whites first TV appearance was in 1939". Basic math calculates a career therefore of 8 decades, not "nine decades" as currently stated in Wikipedia. Her fabulous record does not require exaggeration, only correct citation. StarofDavidCox (talk) 22:02, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Done. But I think even eight might be overstating it. The thing to do is to look at the sources in this article and mirror what they say, or add new reliable sources. I think it's fair to say that her TV career did not "span nine decades," but please be specific about what WP:RS say. We still have a discrepancy between "seven decades" and "eight decades" in the intro. Moncrief (talk) 22:22, 31 December 2021 (UTC)


 * It is not original research to do basic math. If the sources disagree, do the math yourself using dates everyone agrees with, and go with that source for the duration claim.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 22:38, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Also note, if someone started in 1969 and stopped in 1971, some sources will say "spanning two decades" (60s and 70s), which might be accurate in an odd way, but it's really 2 years and misleading, so you try not to use those kinds of sources. Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 22:40, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Centenarian performers with octogenarian bodies of work
It might be something to create a list of performers who lived to a great old age and kept working, like Betty White or George Burns or nonagenarian Christopher Plummer with septagenarian work-- 65.92.246.142 (talk) 07:16, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Infobox death date
Does not agree with text. Dec 31 173.90.75.20 (talk) 19:59, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * As of at least this edit, the text and infobox show the same date. If there is another disagreement, feel free to mention it with a quote.  --Super Goku V (talk) 20:08, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It was reconciled the same minute I posted. 173.90.75.20 (talk) 20:33, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * No idea what other sources are saying, but Deadline is saying, "White passed peacefully Thursday night at her home, her agent Jeff Witjas confirmed to Deadline." Any other sources saying this that may possibly warrant a change to December 30 death date? Magitroopa (talk) 20:11, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The most trusted sourcing I'm seeing, including Washington Post states that she died overnight (Dec 30-31). A set date has not been provided. Missvain (talk) 20:13, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Variety says, "White is believed to have died Thursday night at her Brentwood home." and The Hollywood Reporter says, "...died overnight Thursday into Friday at her Brentwood home". Magitroopa (talk) 20:13, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I am of the opinion that we need to have an Or in the death date until the matter can be conclusively settled, so I believe a change is warranted. --Super Goku V (talk) 20:17, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Should say police responded at 9:30am, not that she died at that time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.67.98.161 (talk) 20:19, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I did read a reliable "Friday morning" source, but consensus would be appreciated. Because of that source, I have her listed at 31st on the 2021 om American television page--CreecregofLife (talk) 21:14, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * NYT, Global News, USA Today, and many others have listed it as Friday. It appears the 30th was an early mistake. —TheSandDoctor (mobile) (talk) 04:01, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * While we should follow our sources, I do want to make clear that the 30th does not appear to be an early mistake. Per her agent, Jeff Witjas: "Witjas said White had been staying close to her Los Angeles home during the pandemic out of caution but had no diagnosed illness. It was unclear if she died Thursday night or Friday, he said."  I currently do not see why sources have concluded it was Friday, but it should not be a major problem as that is what our sources are currently saying.  --Super Goku V (talk) 10:52, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Wrong Betty White Credited in First Job
This is incorrect: White's earliest work in entertainment came in 1930 when she was eight years old and appeared on an episode of a radio program called Empire Builders which was first broadcast on December 22 that year.

Per Variety's archives, in the Dec. 29, 1931 issue of Variety, a feature refers to a different Betty White appearing on "Empire Builders." (Photo attached.) The story reads: BETTY WHITE: Her grown-up pose belles her fame as radio's foremost child-character actress. For the past two years she has been the frequent feature of the enduring 'Rln-Tln-TIn Thrillers." Her voice is also familiar to listeners of the "Empire Builders" and "Junior Detective" programs. Betty is a graduate of Grinnell College, Iowa; she began her theatrical career in a road company of "Three Wise Fools," where she met her equally famous husband, Bob White, radio actor-author. Together they deserted the stage for the microphone. Soon they are to be heard in a new daily dramatic series from Chicago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:4640:8B70:48B8:B6D8:C4C4:81D4 (talk) 20:53, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I (separately) saw this today, and removed it. I think I will have to create the Betty Reynolds White article, but since famous Betty White was good friends with Ryan Reynolds, sources are harder to find. Kingsif (talk) 23:00, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

article views: over 3 million
Just want to note, this article jumped to three million views, over the last few days. my deepest condolences to everyone, and my heartfelt sympathy on the passing of a truly talented and greatly-admired artist. ---Sm8900 (talk) 🌍 04:22, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

That 70s Show
Why isn’t her work on That 70s Show mentioned? 173.70.69.116 (talk) 22:20, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It is in Betty White filmography. But if it is sufficiently relevant it could be mentioned somewhere in the main article. The filmography article states "Recurring role, 4 episodes," so may not be sufficient to mention here. Not sure. DirkDouse (talk) 19:54, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

“Death and legacy” should be “Death and Tributes”
The section is more giving condolences to White as I'm seeing. Turtleshell3 (talk) 00:55, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It would be lowercase t, but feel free to improve headers yourself. Subsectioning tributes might be useful (like at Chadwick Boseman); unless the "tributes" are describing her legacy and just need to be better incorporated perhaps? I'm focused more on career at the moment (assuming most readers know White just died and lots of responses are sad, but may not know what she was doing in 1953). Kingsif (talk) 01:30, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree with everything you just said. Turtleshell3 (talk) 01:53, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I have made the changes that were discussed here. If the section changes over time the headings could be changed again to reflect that. DirkDouse (talk) 19:59, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you, DirkDouse. Turtleshell3 (talk) 22:20, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Add Sue Ann Nivens image
I do think the black and white image above of her as Sue Ann Nivens (MTM years) should be included somewhere in the article. Her character transformed the show and the cast iand her performances as Nivens were classic. AK4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 19:02, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * There are already two images of White as Sue Ann on MTM. Why would we add another when the images overlap already and they both have greater illustrative purpose? Kingsif (talk) 23:02, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Kingsif, I already said why I think it should be there. I'm starting to think you are now following my comments and contributions, seeking only to be contentious and argue. If that's the case, I'm asking you to please refrain. I'm only trying to give constructive commentary and add my voice. Please respect that others have a say, even if you disagree with what they say. There are better ways to disagree than what you are doing. As you were at the Jessica Walter article, I'm sensing aggression and condescension. It would be greatly appreciated if you did not go down that road. Let's just work on improvement of this page, okay? Cheers and Happy New Year, AK4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 23:43, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I really hope you just have the worst sense of humor. Or else I can't get my head around the fact that I was the one suggesting the images above, while in the last week you have exclusively edited regarding articles I was already a contributor to, and yet you have the gall to accuse me of stalking you. As for this issue: you may have "already said why you think it should be there" (Her character transformed the show and the cast iand her performances as Nivens were classic), but if you bothered to read more than the word "why" in my response above, you would see about three good reasons not to add any more images of Sue Ann, period. To repeat myself: 1. we already have two images of Sue Ann Nivens in the article, so the character is not excluded. I mean, that solves your issue straight away; also, 2., those images both show what the character was like (as they have scene context), when the image you suggest is cropped tight on the character, i.e. the multiple images already in the article are more likely to get across the "transformative" and "classic" points you want to make. And, 3., with short paragraphs and two images (and a third close in the section below), it is far too overcrowded to consider adding another. I said all of this already. Adding your image will actively make the article worse, and "I think the character was important" isn't a good reason in the first place but makes zero sense because there are two images of the character already. Why isn't "[thing being depicted] is important" a good reason on its own? Images in articles are supposed to be illustrative; how they depict something is often a higher consideration than just what it is being depicted. Here, and, as you mentioned, at Jessica Walter, (But please refrain from bringing up separate discussions in an attempt to, what, knock someone down? Here and anywhere else irrelevant. I didn't know you were the same editor, and your latest comment seems to hinge more on slinging accusations at me to try and get me to shut up rather than actually try to explain why a third image would be useful, the actual question I asked), every comment I have seen from you has the attitude that you feel entitled to put images (of things that should be shown, I have never disagreed) that please you in articles. You insist you have a say, and you do, but your comments do not need to be acted on if they make it clear you just want to dress up articles with images you like when it's, at best, unnecessary. I.e. in this edit reason I said I would add the image you suggested, thinking no MTM photo was a glaring omission. Then I saw there were multiple images with better purpose there. I heard you, but if you made an edit request it would be closed as "already done" with no action, and that's that.  It's ironic that you say there are better ways to disagree than what you are doing, speaking to me not to mention condescension ; in all of my responses to you I have quite plainly (which you call aggression, it's just not coddling) explained why your ideas go against guidelines. You then reply to me with responses that are effectively "but I said!", which is no way to reasonably discuss. I do believe you genuinely want to improve Wikipedia articles, but if I've twice now told you that images have to serve actual purposes, can you not see that insisting you should be able to add images without purposes isn't helpful? Finally: if you have any more off-topic uncivil comments to give me, drop them at my talkpage, not here. Kingsif (talk) 00:29, 2 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to comment further on this image. I think it is quite obvious that, with two more-illustrative images of the character already present in the article, adding this image would make the article worse because of how crammed it would make it. (And that !vote oppose stance isn't changing.) Other users are, obviously, free to discuss more And, as said, if the above user wants to hash out their whatever issues with me, this isn't the place  . Keeping in mind WP:NOTVOTE, of course. Kingsif (talk) 00:37, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Curious about how Wikipedia feels about your poor attitude and lack of courtesy in the above, I just looked this Wikipedia rule up: WP:CIVIL. Interesting stuff. Not sure what your problem is, but I think we're done here. AK4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 02:17, 2 January 2022 (UTC)


 * What's MTM? Turtleshell3 (talk) 02:33, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

The Mary Tyler Moore Show show. AK4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 02:37, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Mary Tyler Moore. -  FlightTime  ( open channel ) 02:37, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you, also uh, I'm noticing I'm probably getting off-topic here. But the profile cover got changed again, is there some kind of picture war going on? Turtleshell3 (talk) 02:40, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The image on the main page of Wikipedia, where White is mentioned in the news box, was changed to the one in the blue dress (not by me). As the main page instructions says an image used on the main page must be in the article it is attached to, I changed the infobox image to the same one to abide by that. I left an edit reason say to revert if there were any objections, of course, even though the blue dress image had significant support in the discussion above. Kingsif (talk) 23:47, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * No, one user just changed it twice because of a consensus by power of suggestion about an MOS guideline they claim exists but couldn’t be civil enough to bring confirmation when asked, and could not prove their claims that would make the picture change suitable--CreecregofLife (talk) 04:50, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It's clear you can read but apparently you also see things when you do because literally nobody, lest me, said there was MOS on updating images - I think the discussion opener (not me) said it was an unwritten convention of bios and just about everyone else agreed. Nobody ever asked me for confirmation of an MOS (that nobody claimed existed), either, while I (and multiple others) did give long reasons as to what made certain images suitable. You're a very loud single-person minority, but also one with some random vendetta spouting complete lies about something everyone can read directly above. How do you think your victim narrative is going to fly when the evidence against it doesn't even require a click to find? And stop writing personal attacks about me as off-topic replies to other editors, and preferably don't direct them at me at all. Kingsif (talk) 23:47, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 January 2022 (3)
Change she attended Unity Church back to "White was a Christian. She attended the Unity Church. " There was no reason to remove that in the place. Ususer445 (talk) 21:08, 1 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. melecie   t  - 23:06, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I would agree. Unless there is a reliable source for the claim the article should be left as it now stands. THX1136 (talk) 23:51, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Lack of consensus on head image
I notice that the head image was changed away from the 2010 image without consensus, why is that? Why honor the wishes of someone verbally abusive?--CreecregofLife (talk) 03:48, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

With all due respect, it seems as if you are the only one who disagreed with the change. Reading through the conversation above, it seems as if everyone else was on board. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:204:CF80:7440:D88C:25BF:F5BF:5DDA (talk) 04:15, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Wasn't this already discussed above? I have to agree with 2601 on this. Refer to Tendentious editing if you want to continue with this. (CC) Tb hotch ™ 04:48, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Last word
Besides only being sourced to Fox News, is this actually encyclopedic or just one for the spirit folk? Kingsif (talk) 00:05, 4 January 2022 (UTC)


 * It would be something for List of last words (21st century), but not here. --  Zanimum (talk) 02:57, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Formal verification would be helpful, though. "HuffPost reached out to Jeff Witjas, White’s agent and friend, to fact check the story, but he could neither confirm nor deny the report." --  Zanimum (talk) 02:58, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 January 2022
I think the following should be removed from the section DEATH. “The last word she uttered before dying was Allen, the name of her late husband.[134]”

Betty White died in her sleep. The reference [134] does not support the claim she spoke her husband’s name. Tracey0808 (talk) 02:57, 4 January 2022 (UTC)


 * It seems to have been removed already? That's a good point, by the way. --  Zanimum (talk) 03:02, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Spelling
This article is about an American personally. Spelling must be American and not British. Anderson Cooper HONORED Betty White, not Honoured. Unlock this article so minor spelling errors can be fixed. 108.7.56.93 (talk) 12:53, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I have now changed those spellings instances from British to US spellings. The extended confirmed page protection expires on the 14th. DirkDouse (talk) 15:34, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Betty white movie credits
Betty white had a part on lake placid (1999) as Mrs. Delores Bickerman. she was the main protagonist in the movie as an old widow who lived on the lake and fed the crocodiles which led them to grow as big as they did. her quick wit and hilarious vulgarity made for an entertaining cameo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gormagon67 (talk • contribs) 11:55, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Listed on Betty White filmography. Not sure if sufficiently relevant to include in the main article. DirkDouse (talk) 15:39, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Under Achievements and Honors
In the Achievements and honors section, at the very bottom, is something added recently which seems superfluous and doesn't really have anything to do with Ms. White's life.

"In January 2021, LGBT activist Konrad Juengling petitioned the Oak Park, Illinois village board to name January 17, White's birthday, as Betty White Day. The petition stated White is a "national treasure"; it garnered over 3,000 signatures by the end of the month.[104][105]"

Looking into the situation, the Oak Park board never moved on naming the day after her which makes insertion of it a meaningless tidbit. I think it should be removed at this time. If something comes of it certainly put it back in. At this time it's neither an achievement nor an honor and is inappropriate for the article, I believe. AK4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 14:30, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Hmm, if there's a source that says Juengling (is he a notable activist?) started the petition because of White's advocacy for LGBTQ+ rights, it might be worthy to have a brief mention in the "causes" part of the article, but otherwise I'd agree it seems undue and shouldn't be under honors either way. Kingsif (talk) 00:00, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Kingsif, I looked into the individual further. It appears there's a page on him in Wikipedia, but reading it gives me the impression the person the article is about isn't exactly "notable".  I'm now wondering why the page exists but maybe because of my lack of Wikipedia experience and depth of understanding on how things work here I'm not completely clear on what makes someone notable enough to be included as subject matter in Wikipedia. AK4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 22:24, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:19, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you! AK4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 22:24, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Non-notable tributes removed from article

 * On December 31st, CNN interrupted regular programming to announce the breaking news of White’s passing aged 99. On the evening of her death, Andy Cohen and Anderson Cooper performed a toast in her honour on CNN's New Year's Eve Live. At Decadence EDM Music Festival in Arizona, American DJ Dillon Francis made tribute to White during his set on New Years Eve. He began projecting images of White throughout her career onto the big screen with the words “Betty White Forever” printed underneath whilst toasting her 99 years to a crowd of thousands and playing Cynthia Fee’s ‘Thank you for being a Friend’, the theme tune to The Golden Girls.

Parking these here, but these are non-notable tributes to Mrs. White Ludden. -- Zanimum (talk) 05:53, 4 January 2022 (UTC)


 * This discussion has been rebooted with a wider scope, as "Death section becoming a laundry list." --  Zanimum (talk) 23:15, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

author?
I think she deserves to have author added as an occupation, as she wrote various successful memoirs and novels. If it were anyone else without all her other achievements, an article would be written just about their books and philanthropy. Thoughts? Electricmaster (talk) 04:30, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * There is an (incomplete) literature section in the article, so it should be fine. I will note that I could not find a great source that mentions her as a writer, so it could be a problem if mentioned in the lede.  The best I could find was this, which is from a company's website.  --Super Goku V (talk) 09:27, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

"Achievements and honours" section title spelling
Betty White was an American, this is a page about an American celebrity. "Honours" in the section title should to be changed to "honors", American spelling. Thank you! AK4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 15:32, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Change made. DirkDouse (talk) 15:35, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Your language is English. You speak English. The English spelling is “honours”. I rest my case. Bradonwiki (talk) 12:53, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Spelling error in Early life
Early in the Early life section is the following: "Her paternal grandfather was Danish and her maternal grandfather was Greek, with her other roots being English and Welsh (both of her grandmothers were Canadians)." The bolded sentence inside the parentheses needs to be looked at and probably changed to "Canadian", with the 's' removed. Thank you! AK4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 14:30, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ Anyone else, feel free to tighten up that prose. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:12, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Remove Biden remark
Remove the Joe Biden comment. He’s too controversial and she never appear on her page 98.158.210.231 (talk) 00:12, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * He's not controversial--CreecregofLife (talk) 00:20, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree. When a public figure dies it's not unusual for a president to express condolences, as he did re Archbishop Tutu. (We're losing too many good people.) Manannan67 (talk) 02:37, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Every politician is controversial, but the statement is notable. DirkDouse (talk) 17:10, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 5 January 2022
Change 1930-2021 to 1939-2021 Harrygrea9 (talk) 22:31, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅. Thank you. It took me a bit to figure out what you were asking (the more specific you can be in your requests, folks, the better), but I see it was re "Years active" in the infobox. Moncrief (talk) 23:05, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

First radio role was not at age 8
For the record, Betty White's first radio role was not at age 8. This misinformation has been circulating for nearly a decade, the actress who appeared on Empire Builders was Elizabeth "Betty" White, nee Reynolds. Part of her repertoire was to perform as a small child.

https://empire-builders-radio.blogspot.com/2021/01/will-real-betty-reynolds-white-please.html

This Betty White — Betty Marion White Ludden — got her appearance on Blondie accidentally, as they were intending to hire Betty Reynolds White, and didn't have time to correct the mistake.

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/91776634/david-reed-tvs-grand-old-gal/

In other words, she was on television (the experimental television show) before she was on radio (commercials, etc). -- Zanimum (talk) 02:39, 4 January 2022 (UTC)


 * You should change 1930 in the beginning of Years active, her first television gig (experimental television show) as you mentioned, took place in 1939 so you could change it to that. --Aaron106 (talk) 03:56, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, thank you for noting that. --  Zanimum (talk) 04:56, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

No problem :) --Aaron106 (talk) 05:10, 4 January 2022 (UTC)


 * The Empire Builders stuff was already removed (see above), while the mention of being on the radio at age eight is a call-in, not acting. Besides the years active infobox as kindly mentioned, is there any phrasing you are concerned about? Kingsif (talk) 05:50, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
 * A call in, ? I don't see any reference to this in the article. By call-in, you mean that she literally was heard on the radio, having called into the show, a la talk radio or "am I the lucky caller who wins tickets"? Even if that is the case -- and any reference I've seen is in relation to Empire Builders -- that's not part of a career. --  Zanimum (talk) 05:57, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I now see that someone also removed that part today, and added a too-lengthy quote about the 1939 show in the process. I am not sure what call-in guest meant, but would assume it is how you described. No, it’s not part of a career but it was in the early life section and as written gave a sense of a young White discovering showbiz. Call-in wasn’t exactly common in the 30s, and a few decades later it was how June Carter Cash became a singer as I remember, so I left it when I removed Empire Builders as it was sourced and seemed at least an interesting precursor to her career. Kingsif (talk) 06:03, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Kingsif, June Carter Cash was part of the famed Bluegrass and Country music Carter Family, her mother was Maybelle Carter. She got her "start" by being born. AK4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 15:23, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I found the statement as it was:


 * White first interacted with the entertainment world when she made a guest call on a radio program in 1930 when she was eight years old.

So the sentence meant "to call upon someone" as in to visit them. A guest appearance, a guest spot, but when we're dealing with telecommunications, call is the wrong choice of words. But being Empire Builders again, there is no evidence of any media appearance before 1939's experimental television broadcast. -- Zanimum (talk) 23:25, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Further to it not being the now famous Betty White at age 8, that particular website lists Bob White as another cast member in the episode. Bob was Betty's husband. --  Zanimum (talk) 23:27, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Also mentioned in the section above. Perhaps we could move this up there so there aren't any duplicated points? Kingsif (talk) 00:49, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I apologize for creating such an uproar over Betty White's Images.
It was me who brought the issue up in the first place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:204:CF80:7440:296E:659D:DBD3:740B (talk) 16:47, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
 * As this doesn't have to do with editing the article, I have closed this discussion due to one of our policies. (though with a note in the edit summary and here that if anyone disagrees with this closing, they can remove the templates)
 * With that said, you do not need to apologize for any issues as you did not create them. Articles that have a subject in the news generally attract attention and sometimes issues pop up on the talk page as a result.  All you did was ask a question and attempt to improve the article.  (If someone caused trouble, they likely deserve a TROUT.  :P)  I do hope that this helps to reassure you that asking questions about the article is fine and encouraged.  --Super Goku V (talk) 09:09, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Shall I consider myself trouted? I'm honoured. I already encouraged the IP at my and their talkpages, so I hope they continue contributing. Kingsif (talk) 00:53, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Death section becoming a laundry list
There's a certain lack of balance in this article, the Death section is becoming bloated with trivia.

Yes, Sarah Hyland appeared in a single episode of Hot in Cleveland. Yes, Bob Iger is the now retired head of a media company which honoured her with a lifetime achievement award. But does anyone really care that they tweeted about her death? Can't we just say "Many celebrities also paid tribute."?

If we're listing celebrities whose tweets were mentioned in the media, where do we draw the line? Billboard lists songwriter Diane Warren, Tegan and Sara, Ryan Seacrest, Huey Lewis, Steve Martin, Lizzo, Halsey, Nick Cannon, Amy Lee, Randy Rainbow, Gloria Gaynor, Cary Brothers, Jenny Lewis, Laura Jane Grace, Danny Brown, Richard Marx, Julia Michaels, LALAH, Sheryl Crow.

Betty White appeared in 124 of 128 episodes of Hot in Cleveland, a total of 127 words in the article. The tributes get 322 words, so far.

We have 34 words on Betty White's Off Their Rockers, for which she received three Emmy nominations, but 50 words dedicated to a DJ that incorporated her into his routine? -- Zanimum (talk) 23:14, 4 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I agree that the section has gotten far too long. Here is what I would suggest as a rework: DirkDouse (talk) 23:44, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
 * White's death was met with sympathy and statements from many people and organizations. For example, U.S. President Joe Biden released a statement upon her death, describing her as a "lovely lady" and a "cultural icon who will be sorely missed." Barack and Michelle Obama also expressed sympathy on social media. The United States Army released a statement, as White had served in the army during World War II. Additionally, the Martin Luther King Jr. Center tweeted their condolences and praised White for her early support of racial equality. There were additional tributes from numerous media organizations and celebrities. White's star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame was flooded with flowers and tributes within hours of the announcement of her death. DirkDouse (talk) 23:44, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I like it, with one notable exception: White didn't "serve in the army." She was a volunteer with the American Women's Voluntary Services, which is very different. I'm not sure how to word it other than giving that organization's full name (which I think is fine to do, with a wikilink); however you do it, please don't imply that she was a member of the U.S. Army. Moncrief (talk) 00:51, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Great. Maybe change to "volunteered with the American Women's Voluntary Services during World War II." DirkDouse (talk) 01:11, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Works for me! Thanks! Moncrief (talk) 01:37, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I don’t agree — I believe the mentions of the types of tribute to her across generations, races and nationalities along with the mediums of the companies tributing her really show loved and respected White was as a person (which I believe was a huge part of her success) and I believe this is an important point to show about her. It’s also very hard to get that across in any other way and you can’t add a citation to someone’s feeling. Bradonwiki (talk) 12:59, 5 January 2022 (UTC)


 * really show how loved Bradonwiki (talk) 13:00, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Then add a topic sentence saying as much. As it stands after you've reverted it, there are just two overlong anecdotes with nothing to connect them and with no overriding clear purpose for their inclusion. One is about "a toast" in a hourslong New Year's Eve program, during which any famous actor who had died that day would likely have received a toast. The other is an unsourced reference to a "tribute" (not sure what that entails) at a music festival. If that's meant to be an example of a widespread trend among younger people, that purpose and relevance is not clear. Why not add a topic sentence similar to the one you've brought to the talk page, and make it clearer that the two anecdotes you mentioned are meant to illustrate a trend. Source them. It's not acting in good faith to simply revert to your previous version without trying to find consensus or address the concerns people have raised. Also, please read WP:FIES. You tend not to use the edit summary feature, which is not best practice for an article (I'm guilty of it myself on Talk pages), and makes it difficult to wade through and determine the rationales of your many edits. Moncrief (talk) 15:36, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "believe the mentions of the types of tribute to her across generations, races and nationalities along with the mediums of the companies tributing her [...] is an important point to show about her." Seems like that could be relevant, but not sure if that's really illustrated by a long list of celebrities and organizations tweeting without context. I think the US Army and MLK center cites are the most relevant in that regard, but maybe could select another one or two notable quotes that were particularly notable and work those in. Seems like many of the people/organizations mentioned aren't notable in and of themselves, but are mainly notable when combined with the many statements from other similar people/organizations. DirkDouse (talk) 16:53, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, Betty White's 100th birthday is on the 17th, and there is a (supposedly private) funeral upcoming soon. So there may be more specific/notable content to add under the death section in that regard that is more relevant than bulk celebrity tweets and shoutouts at events. Personally, I would suggest trimming the section down in some capacity and revisiting at that time if/when more notable content comes up. DirkDouse (talk) 16:53, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

@DirkDouse — thank you for articulating that so well, while have edited documents for many years in my career, I am new to doing it on Wikipedia, so still learning exactly how and where to do things, I would and could add citations to pretty much all of my points if I knew how to, I just don’t.

I understand what the previous person is saying about trying to link the anecdotes, I’ll work on it. My point is I’ve not only seen many people of different walks of life, races, nationalities, and generation comment on how hard her passing hit them, many people commenting on how all 3 and 4 generations of their family have been moved by her passing because all of them have had some connection to her, wether it be radio and early tv in the 30s/40s, her tv and gameshows in the 50s, Mary Tyler Moore & Golden Girls in the 70s & 80s or funny prank show clips, SNL and tv adverts from the 2010s — not many people have the career or ability to do that and I believe that should be articulated in the death and tributes section. Or create a proper legacy section. I feel it’s indeed notable but was just unsure where to put and develop it. Bradonwiki (talk) 19:07, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

On top of that she was a pioneer in early television and was instrumental, especially in the United States (which itself was a pioneer in television) in increasing the popularity of television as a medium, I believe this is why she is also respected by so many brands, organisations and companies. Bradonwiki (talk) 19:13, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Maybe this as a rework (bold sentence is the only part changed from what was suggested earlier in this talk thread), which expands on the sentence about the various types of people who issued statements with citations (some still needed) for each of the various groups. Users who want to read more can then go to the original cited articles for more info: DirkDouse (talk) 19:43, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * White's death was met with sympathy and statements from many people and organizations. For example, U.S. President Joe Biden released a statement upon her death, describing her as a "lovely lady" and a "cultural icon who will be sorely missed." Barack and Michelle Obama also expressed sympathy on social media. The United States Army released a statement, as White had volunteered with the American Women's Voluntary Services during World War II. Additionally, the Martin Luther King Jr. Center tweeted their condolences and praised White for her early support of racial equality. There were additional tributes from numerous media organizations, celebrities, political commentators, sports teams, musicians, and other public figures. White's star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame was flooded with flowers and tributes within hours of the announcement of her death. DirkDouse (talk) 19:43, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * If that works for the rest of you, great. Otherwise, let me know alternate suggestions and we can adjust. DirkDouse (talk) 19:43, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Looks great. Thanks! Moncrief (talk) 20:43, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * any additional suggestions/comments here? DirkDouse (talk) 21:25, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, looks like this page is full protection/admin only from now to the 14th, so or  would have to make the actual changes. DirkDouse (talk) 21:32, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm willing to take down the protection level before then, but we can't have constant major edits to this article without consensus, talk page discussions, or -- at the very least -- edit summaries. It's unsustainable. Moncrief (talk) 21:36, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * To give a sense how bloated the Death section is, it's only about 80 words shorter than the 1980s section. Crazy. WP:RECENT. Moncrief (talk) 21:43, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I appreciate what you’re saying Moncrief

I was unsure how to message you direct so posted a message on your talk page:

“Why am now unable to edit the article? I am seasoned in editing, but new to editing on Wikipedia and wasn’t aware a summary of what I had changed was a necessity. So if you have somehow imposed some kind of ban on me from editing it, may you remove it as it was a simple error that I have now learnt from. If not could you explain what has happened please. Thanks Bradonwiki (talk) 22:09, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

As for the death section, I like the newest revision from Moncrief noted above. I do still think mentioning the toast to her on CNN’s New Years Eve Live is a really nice addition and sets this particular televised death news aside from many others. Bradonwiki (talk) 22:12, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Also unsure as to why the short paragraph about her hometowns mayor officially naming January 17th annually, ‘Betty White Day’. I feel this is quite a big thing and doesn’t happen too often. There are plenty of news articles mentioning it, I had referenced one (Chicago Sun Times) as I felt it was reputable for the story also being in Illinois, like White’s hometown of Oak Park, so unsure if there was an issue with that or you just didn’t want the information there but if you could explain?? Cheers Bradonwiki (talk) 22:16, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Sorry that should read.. I like the most recent revised edit from @DirkDouse albeit plus my above point on the NYE toast Bradonwiki (talk) 22:20, 5 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what "revision from Moncrief noted above" you're talking about. I didn't put any revision above. Please read WP:ILIKEIT. So many of your comments and edits are prefaced with notes about things you "like" and things you think are "nice." That is not what Wikipedia is about. Cooper and Cohen are on the air for hours. They talk about all kinds of things. It's not the least bit notable or surprising that they would mention White's passing, or toast to it, on the very day it happened. (It would be far more surprising if they hadn't.) It isn't notable enough for inclusion here, nor is a ceremonial day declared by the town where White was born and lived for a year as an infant. Towns declare all sorts of ceremonial days that most people living there don't even know about. Moncrief (talk) 22:22, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I believe that there was a separate discussion thread about the ceremonial day where someone determined that the town never actually went through with creating the day, just that there was a vote about it. CNN NYE seems fairly trivial, but if there are relevant sources that can be used to substantiate that there was some kind of a trend related to NYE toasts at NYE events/broadcasts, maybe could be relevant, but does not seem notable in and of itself that CNN hosts did this. Seems sufficient to just mention generally that "political commentators" or "news broadcasters" issued statements. DirkDouse (talk) 22:58, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I'd say "political commentators" is potentially notable, but "news broadcasters" is awfully vague. Major-celebrity deaths are invariably reported on by news broadcasters of all types. Moncrief (talk) 23:03, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Sounds like we have buy-in to your proposed rewrite, DirkDouse. Let us know if you'd link an administrator to add the new language. Moncrief (talk) 23:23, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Yeah, feel free to edit it into the article. DirkDouse (talk) 23:25, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Done. Thank you for putting that together -- including the references, which I know take a lot of work.
 * I want to say that I'm personally sympathetic to the idea that the cross-generational reaction to White's death was fairly unique for an elderly celebrity. There was no such reaction when Gavin MacLeod or Olympia Dukakis died last year, for example, despite them being of roughly the same generation. (Edit: Probably better examples, due to their career and life longevity, and cross-generational fame for such, would be the deaths of George Burns and Bob Hope.) I think it's fair to be open to including sourced, verifiable metrics and even a few notable examples of this type of reaction. But anecdotal or non-notable examples without sources or context are not useful. Moncrief (talk) 23:40, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I’m unsure how to add references but whoever asked me what I meant by the DJ’s tribute at the EDM festival on New Years Eve: https://twitter.com/dillonfrancis/status/1477492587518779393?s=21 Bradonwiki (talk) 00:50, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I don’t know of many people, of that age, bar Queen Elizabeth and possibly Jimmy Carter, that would get anything like that kind of tribute from people of that generation Bradonwiki (talk) 00:52, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Posting the URL like that is fine. If you want, you can use brackets to have part of your message be clickable to a URL, like this.  Example aside, there is a policy about using Twitter as a source.  If you have a news article or other source, it might be better to include it as I am not sure that this would work as this article is about Betty White and not Dillon Francis.  Additionally, I am unsure if Francis is notable enough to be mentioned here.  --Super Goku V (talk) 11:05, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 January 2022
Can someone add the category "American voice actresses" to the Betty White article? She had done voice over work during her career before her death. StephanTheAnimator (talk) 10:27, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. Categories should be defining characteristics, which voice acting appears not to be. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:31, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * As somewhat of a tangent, there seem to be a number of categories where she did something, but it isn't as well known about her compared to her TV career. More specifically: American women memoirists, Writers from Los Angeles, Writers from Oak Park, Illinois, American spoken word artists, Audiobook narrators, and likely others.  Should those be removed from the article or is there something I am overlooking or misunderstanding?  --Super Goku V (talk) 07:48, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * No, categories are a kind of "add all applicable"; I do not think adding the voice actress one needs consensus, it is a simple fact. The issue with job descriptions comes in the infobox and lead, where we don't want to be exhaustive and do want to mention the things people are best-known for. Kingsif (talk) 16:48, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 5 January 2022 (2)
' PLEASE REMOVE THAT PICTURE FROM THE INFOBOX! IT'S FAKE! >:( ' 2604:3D08:6286:7500:3C7B:2B72:BF8F:33B9 (talk) 23:12, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. I assume this was about some vandalism that was reverted? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:46, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Just to verify, are you talking about this file? If so, can you explain why you believe it is fake?  If not, it has already been taken care of as noted by ScottishFinnishRadish.  I am asking as there seems to have only been one change to the infobox image in the last 24 hours or so and it was to this image.  --Super Goku V (talk) 08:28, 6 January 2022 (UTC)


 * That images is categorically not fake. David Shankbone was one of the top contributors to Wikinews in its glory days. This photo wasn't for Wikinews, but it's part of this Flickr set.


 * Is it my favourite picture of her from those on Commons? Probably not. (2009, 1989, and 1988 look more like her.) But I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of anything Mr. Shankbone posted. --  Zanimum (talk) 02:18, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I know it isn't fake, but I am confused by the request appearing to claim that it is fake as I could not find any other changes that were made to the Infobox image. I figured that maybe they could at least explain why they thought so or maybe realize they made a mistake.  --Super Goku V (talk) 09:09, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Should we change Betty White's Profile picture ?
Usually, when a entertainer dies, what i notice is that their profile picture gets changed to when they were at their " peak " years. We have not done so for Betty White. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:204:CF80:7440:B4A9:309F:7648:28B0 (talk) 00:30, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Because it just happened. And considering the 2009/early 2010s period was one of great resurgence for her, I'd argue it doesn't need changing--CreecregofLife (talk) 00:32, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree it doesnt need to be from her youth, but this particular image also doesnt look particularly flattering. Surely theres gotta be a picture from the last 20 years where she actually poses for a photo and looks into the camera. jonas (talk) 00:59, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I would say waiting a week and starting a discussion giving options of 2 or 3 images is probably best. No reason to rush to it today.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 02:09, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The issue with Betty White is, what era was her peak? She was top of the TV game for, so far, its entire existence. However, when Prince Philip (a comparable figure - prominent for 7 decades) died, we did change his infobox image. It went from the most recent image to one where he is neither too young or too old. Easily recognisable and one of the best-quality images of him on commons. It is possible that Golden Girls-era Betty White is the most recognisable version, if we have or can get one (free). Probably no need to rush, though. Kingsif (talk) 02:43, 1 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Having said that, we did update Philip's right away and used the new image on the MP. My suggestion is 1988 or 1989 Emmys ('89 better quality). Pinging those who have previously commented: Kingsif (talk) 02:58, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't like the idea of turning back the clock on her as the main picture. I think, while replacing the current we should keep it relatively recent--CreecregofLife (talk) 03:23, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Why? When people die, it is standard - I actually think it is MOS or at least a guideline - to change the infobox image (which, when they're alive, is the most recent with quality considerations) to an image of them at their most recognizable. While White was prominent from her youth to very old age, Golden Girls is certainly her most iconic period. Kingsif (talk) 03:51, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * How did it go from "possible" to "certainly" in an hour?--CreecregofLife (talk) 05:10, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The "possible" was my personal interpretation. I then worked more on the article and read many of the obits, all of which mention Golden Girls in the headline or opening sentence. With my new awareness, "certain" is apt. Did you have anything else to add? Kingsif (talk) 06:26, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that I’m seeing Hot in Cleveland just about as much, which is for two probable reasons: 1) The era with the highest quality photos and 2) It’s the last series regular role with surviving costars, and thus is the well for the press to craft eulogy-based articles from--CreecregofLife (talk) 08:05, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The 1988 Emmys picture looks like a reasonable thing to change it to (the 1989 one has noticeably less flattering lighting). I don't know if there's much worth splitting hairs on exactly when White's most prominent era was -- Golden Girls is a good candidate, but it's such a bitterly subjective question. The real question is when we can access a high-quality photo that's recognizably her, and I think the '88 Emmys one does that admirably, although I'd be interested in other candidates. To that end I've added File:Betty White Mary Tyler Moore Show 1975 (cropped).JPG as a third possibility, which is a bit earlier but also a quality, recognizable publicity photo worth considering alongside our other options, from a high-profile era that doesn't lean too far into recentism. I'd be okay with any of these options (although I still really don't like the '89 lighting comparatively), but I strongly support a change at any rate. Vaticidalprophet 15:20, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Good suggestion, but I don't think it would be a good fit. I think a picture like that would be better for someone like Bea Arthur and the like. I think we should have a go on the 89 photo. Turtleshell3 (talk) 18:16, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * If we are going with the 1988 cropped image, is it possible to center it? Her face is slightly right of center. ~BappleBusiness[talk] 21:48, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * You could re-crop it yourself, but I'll get to it. I think I centered it then noticed a face on the right and cropped that out, skewing it off. Kingsif (talk) 22:53, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to see if there was a reason it wasn't centered. I'll try to do it myself. ~BappleBusiness[talk] 23:11, 2 January 2022 (UTC) Nevermind, realized you already did it! ~BappleBusiness[talk] 23:14, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree about the photo and it does need to be one from her heyday and what's considered the height of her career. Of the two 89 photos, I prefer the one where she's looking straight at the camera. AK4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 19:02, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

My read of the above is that there is consensus to use the 1988 photo. A user changed it back to the 2010 image in this edit, making no reference to the discussion here. Now the article is fully protected; would you agree that there is consensus here? Thanks. Paul Erik (talk) (contribs) 23:46, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * If you are going to claim that MOS encourages this, you need to link to the specific part of MOS that does this, or your claim is meaningless. Asking others to pour through MOS to prove you right or wrong is unreasonable, the burden is on you to back up the claim, which I find very dubious.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 20:00, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Support The news coverage indicates that the Golden Girls era was her peak of fame and that's all I know her for (I'm British). The current picture quite fails to convey who she was and why she was famous.  It's also unpleasantly unflattering.  The suggestion of using the 88 Emmy photo is a good one and should be done immediately as this is the peak of the article's readership -- over 3 million readers yesterday.  Strike while the iron is hot! Andrew🐉(talk) 21:19, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * You are going to need to support your claim that nothing else is of equal weight in press coverage. --CreecregofLife (talk) 21:20, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "White's most famous role was as the naive-but-loveable Rose Nylund in the sitcom The Golden Girls in the 1980s and 90s." Q.E.D. Andrew🐉(talk) 22:22, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * So all you have is one source? In prose? The fact that there’s shady, dubious motive for changing it to anything from 30+ years ago and are willing to cherrypick to get their way continues to be alarming.--CreecregofLife (talk) 22:34, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The fact that multiple editors agree a late 80s photo would be appropriate but one person wants to disregard all of that with the accusation of bad faith that is there's a shady, dubious motive for the suggestion (WTF!) and somehow thinks anyone can take them seriously is alarming. Kingsif (talk) 22:47, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * One person? I'm not the person who originally questioned you. Now you're shouting down opposition and trying to craft a new narrative while still not abiding by your burden of proof. Of course it's alarming, you're panicking.--CreecregofLife (talk) 23:13, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, you must be a different CreecregofLife than the one who first replied to me and is the only detractor to an 80s photo in here. I do have the ability to read the above discussion, you know, speak of "trying to craft a new narrative"... The rest of your comment is distraction. Kingsif (talk) 00:29, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah no the picture change is currently unauthorized. It’s clear you haven’t been following the conversation and have steamrolled to get your way.--CreecregofLife (talk) 04:52, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I prefer the photo where she is facing forward. Prcc27 (talk) 05:46, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I know she was high-profile in the USA long before and long after, but from my experience Betty White is most remembered for The Golden Girls worldwide. IMO the 1988 picture is perfect - it's flattering, she's looking straight at the camera and she's immediately recognisible. The current 2010 one is poor in comparison.Humbledaisy (talk) 19:29, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I think there is rough consensus, but since the image is off the main page and the pageviews (while still in the hundreds of thousands) aren't top-level, there may be no need to rush and discussion can continue. Kingsif (talk) 01:38, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Adding my support for the 1988 photo.—indopug (talk) 15:33, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Now i see why the picture was changed, when i reverted to the 2010 image, i moved the changed one to the 80s section, i restored it again, this time in the "Resurgence" area. I didn't refrence this talk in the edit summary because i was unaware of it. Popculturelover2021 (talk) 17:01, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Lane Allen (Second Ex-Husband) Proposed for Deletion
See Lane Allen and Articles_for_deletion/Lane_Allen. DirkDouse (talk) 17:17, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Since it's protected... Someone fix the single capitalization error.
Under Racial injustice section 'Black' is incorrectly capitalized before tap dancer. Someone needs to fix that. 99.106.93.88 (talk) 19:37, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * That's a common capitalization adopted by most media outlets since 2020 (including, for example, the website for Fox News). Wikipedia exists to reflect common usage, not dictate it. I wouldn't call this an error. Moncrief (talk) 19:58, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

It's not common usage, it's used by the AP and a handful of other left wing outlets (the example you cite also capitalizes white and brown, neither of which should be capitalized). Wikipedia does not exist to indulge in your political pissing contests over language. 99.106.93.88 (talk) 20:02, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Take it up with Wikipedia, per MOS:PEOPLANG. It's not an error, but perfectly within an editor's discretion to choose to do. Insulting me and spewing misinformation isn't going to win you any favors. In fact, keep up with the personal attacks, and you'll get a block. Moncrief (talk) 20:07, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

It's fine, it is an error and I'll just wait for someone to see this and handle it or for the protection to go away and do it myself. No misinformation was given, nor were you personally attacked. The capitalization over white, black and brown is literally a political fight. The rules for the language have not changed, this is simply a fact. The capitalization is wrong, if you take it as a personal attack that's your problem. - I checked the very talk page you linked and the discussion was closed with people opposed to capitalizing black. Perhaps you should have read it yourself? 99.106.93.88 (talk) 20:17, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Very confusing Comment
First paragraph --- "A pioneer of early television, with a career spanning over seven decades...."

Third paragraph, first line --- ''"With a television career spanning over nine decades...."

Moriori (talk) 21:55, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed. That is confusing, particularly because she wasn't in television in the 1930s, and it effectively didn't yet exist as an entertainment medium. You or someone reading this should untangle what it says in the links. What does the link on her Guinness award say about her start date in the industry? We need to mirror the WP:RS cited. Moncrief (talk) 22:01, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, see my comment under "television career". Appears the correct # of decades calculates to 8. StarofDavidCox (talk) 22:06, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * According to her filmography, Bitey White did not appear in Forky Asks A Question's two episodes released in 2020, so that's not considered. Her first television appearance was on an experimental feed in 1939, her first wide gig was in 1949. So '40s through the '10s is indeed 8--CreecregofLife (talk) 22:34, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * That just means that the filmography article is slightly outdated and needs to be updated. As noted at Forky Asks a Question, Betty White reprised her role as Bitey White.  While it was a pain to get a great source, The Walt Disney Company issued a press release regarding White's passing.  To quote the appropriate portion, "In 2019, she joined the voice cast of the Disney and Pixar film Toy Story 4 as Bitey White, a toy tiger named in her honor, later reprising her role in an episode of the Disney+ Original Series Forky Asks a Question."  Hopefully that is satisfactory for part of this.  --Super Goku V (talk) 10:24, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to apologize as I misread what you said. I read it as though you were saying she didn't appear at all in Forky Asks A Question according to her filmography article.  I apologize for the error.  --Super Goku V (talk) 06:29, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I didn't even know it happened, so no worries!--CreecregofLife (talk) 06:36, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

—- HER ENTERTAINMENT CAREER AS A WHOLE BEGAN IN 1939 ON RADIO AND WITH AN EARLY APPEARANCE ON EXPERIMENTAL TV (TV DIDN'T PROPERLY EXIST AT THIS POINT), HER ACTUAL TELEVISION CAREER BEGAN IN 1949. HER GUINNESS WORLD RECORD IS FOR THAT OF AN ‘ENTERTAINER’ SO I WOULD GO WITH HER ENTERTAINMENT CAREER BEGINNING IN 1939 — thus at the time of her death, having a career of 82 years across 8 decades.

Cites for Guinness record
A question borne of curiosity as I edit here occasionally. I noticed 3 cites for Ms. White's 2018 record. One was for the 'male' holder for the record which struck me as odd. I assume there is mention made of Ms. White there also, but since that is not the primary point/subject of that reference should it be used for her (especially since there are 2 cites there already)? To be clear, I have no issue with it being used, just wanted to know if that would be considered a best practice by Wiki standards? Thanks for any info another can offer so I can learn more about how things are done here. THX1136 (talk) 23:47, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * As long as it sources the information and is reliable, it doesn't really matter what the main subject of the source is. Kingsif (talk) 23:58, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I would assume the three citations is because of the claim, White worked longer in television than anyone else in that medium which doesn't seem to directly appear in any of the sources, which could be a problem. --Super Goku V (talk) 01:57, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Could be WP:SYNTH, but we'll have to look at the sources more closely: if one of them, for example, said "X is the person with the longest TV career, at Y years", and another of them says "White worked in TV for Z years", and Z is greater than Y, and the publishing date difference doesn't negate that, then it's simple math and probably acceptable (with a time qualifier, like "as of" or "when she died"), because it isn't any analysis. Kingsif (talk) 02:04, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
 * As far as I can see, there is nothing like that. (The closest is "In a career stretching more than 79 years, she has worked on TV, radio and stage, and appeared in more than 15 movies."  Not only that, but she was initially noted to have the record in 2014 and it was updated(?) in 2018.  --Super Goku V (talk) 08:49, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I think the easy solution then is to remove the 2014 mention and replace whichever sources are strange with this (ABC): Betty White worked longer in television than anyone else in history, earning her a Guinness World Record in 2018. Rest of the article makes it clear to me they aren't sponging facts off us, so looks to be a solid source. Kingsif (talk) 00:48, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I ended up making a change. It currently reads, White earned a Guinness World Record for "Longest TV career by an entertainer (female)" in 2014 and in 2018 for her lengthy work in television.  I just felt odd about the ABC source for some reason.  If that doesn't work, feel free to change it.  (I also removed the Guinness "Longest TV career by an entertainer (male)" source.)  --Super Goku V (talk) 11:47, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 January 2022
The Mary Tyler Moore Show section states, "When Valerie Harper left The Mary Tyler Moore Show, producers felt the show needed another female character, and so created Sue Ann Nivens." But the Nivens character was created a year before Harper left the show, appearing in the season premiere the year before Harper left, so the statement is erroneous. I don't know the true facts of the situation, only that it is something other than as stated. It needs to be corrected, whatever that may entail.

Also, the section "Causes and advocacy" contains three sections; "Animal welfare" and "LGBT rights" name causes she supported. Being consistent with this, the other title implies that she supported "Racial injustice". To be consistent, it should name what she supported, presumably "Racial JUSTICE", or something similar. 2601:545:8201:6290:0:0:0:FB4D (talk) 15:58, 8 January 2022 (UTC)


 * ✅.:You're absolutely right about the timing of Harper and White on the show! Betty White's first appearance was in September 1973 (Ep 4:1). Harper was a regular cast member on the show until February 1974 (Ep 4:22). That information can be verified at List of The Mary Tyler Moore Show episodes and also at external sources. (It's possible someone was confused by the December 1972 episode title "Rhoda Morgenstern: Minneapolis to New York," but Rhoda decided not to move at the end of the episode.) I'll make an edit. If you have particular wording you want, please let us know.


 * Now since these things are known in advance, it's possible to nearly certain that, in preparing for the 1973-74 season, the MTM staff and writers knew that Rhoda would be written out of the show by the end of the season and were looking ahead to how they'd fill the gap when it came up. I'll try to do a little more research on that today. But I agree that the current verb tense sounds as though it was a before/after thing, so that should be remedied.


 * EDIT: Figured it out per and Newspapers.com. Sue Ann made five appearances in the fourth season but was not a regular cast member. She was only brought on as a regular cast member from the fifth season, which is the first one without Rhoda on the show. Changing wording to align with that.


 * As for "Racial justice," to me that term has a modern patina that implies different things from what White was doing. She was righting one obvious injustice, but I'm not sure she was fighting for racial justice as the term is understood. Other thoughts? I do see your point about the different headers being positve/negative, but I can't say it bothers me much personally. Moncrief (talk) 18:06, 8 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Sorry I can't be of more help; it's a case of knowing that something is wrong, without knowing what the correct fact is. I understand about the "patina" of the term "Racial justice", but stylistically the section tiles should be consistent, or "parallel". Perhaps "Opposing racial injustice" might be all right, just a suggestion. 2601:545:8201:6290:0:0:0:FB4D (talk) 18:29, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Sure, I see your point about "Opposing." I added that word. Others may disagree that's the best way to word it. Personally I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume this one incident can neutrally be said to constitute "a cause and advocacy" to the point that it looks like an equivalent to her lifetime commitment to animal welfare, but that's not a can of worms I want to open, at least not until the just-post-death hagiography of White recedes a bit. Moncrief (talk) 18:47, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 January 2022
70.44.176.86 (talk) 00:58, 10 January 2022 (UTC) I want to edit this beautiful ladies profile
 * Full-protection-shackle-no-text.svg Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. - FlightTime  ( open channel ) 01:10, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Political campaigning on wikipedia should not be allowed.
There is a mention of President Biden and Obama in the death section. This is just political campaigning and should be left out. I admit that President Biden is a good president but that is besides the point. It has been well documented that Wikipedia is attacked by teams of campaigners with political agendas, but this is Betty White we're talking about. It is true that Betty White may be spared of political manipulation in Wikipedia (assuming good faith) but Wikipedia has been hit many times before by political operatives pretending to be editors.

A compromise might be that President Biden is taken out and Obama is mentioned with the added mention that Obama is an Academy Award winner so he, like Trump, are both part time entertainers.

Charliestalnaker (talk) 02:24, 11 January 2022 (UTC)


 * This was already discussed above. Manannan67 (talk) 03:27, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Betty White
Betty White had a stroke 6 days before she died at her home in Brentwood, LA 74.50.33.116 (talk) 05:38, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
 * And that's in the article, in the first paragraph of the "Death" section. You can be pretty much certain that a widely reported piece of news will quickly find its way into a high-profile article, so be in the habit of checking an article first, to be sure what you're requesting to be added isn't already there. Moncrief (talk) 08:09, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Alleged last word at death
Per WP:NYPOST, we are discouraged from using the New York Post as a reliable source, and that's the ultimate source of this item. I'd also call it problematic for a number of other reasons: (1) it's third-hand information (Lawrence heard it from Burnett who heard it from an unnamed assistant); (2) it was specifically not confirmed as accurate by Jeff Witjas, White's agent, who has been the on-the-record source for WP:RS information about White's last days; (3) the notability and relevance of the information is uncertain. It's not common to mention a subject's "last words" in a Wikipedia article, unless perhaps there were some "Rosebud"-level revelation in the word that revealed something previously unknown and notable about the subject's life. This new paragraph seems quite tabloid-y. This Yahoo article gives a good overview of the genesis of the story:. I would recommend deleting the paragraph about this topic from the article. Moncrief (talk) 16:14, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Agreed, for all those reasons, even though it made me all gooey when I heard it. Even if verified -- even if Burnett says "yup that's what she said" -- it's still not encyclopedic. Or even particularly unusual, I'd venture. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 16:55, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It also appears to contradict, "White died of natural causes in her sleep...". --Super Goku V (talk) 17:01, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm going to remove this "last word" paragraph then. Thanks. Moncrief (talk) 17:12, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Might want to do the same at Allen Ludden. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 01:51, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Updated! --  Zanimum (talk) 02:23, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Comment of little value, but the fact that Betty White had a stroke before death makes is a little more probable that a "last word" was noted, at some point before she died. That said, without a clear update to the story, this is just speculation. -- Zanimum (talk) 06:34, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that she had the stroke days prior and that she passed away in her sleep. The "last word" would therefore be what she said last prior to sleeping.  (Besides that, there is Moncrief's third point to consider, even if we later have proper sourcing and attribution.)  --Super Goku V (talk) 16:45, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Years active (as actress)
Shouldn't the years that Betty was active as an actress be marked as 1939 to 2019? Betty's last credits (voiceovers) listed were in 2019. 2607:FEA8:5CA1:8F40:993E:2E16:95BA:64F7 (talk) 23:33, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree, if there's no proof she did any work at all in 2020 or 2021. I can't say for sure whether or not that's the case. As always, a cite and link would be helpful. Moncrief (talk) 23:49, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Will this do? "In 2019, she joined the voice cast of the Disney and Pixar film Toy Story 4 as Bitey White, a toy tiger named in her honor, later reprising her role in an episode of the Disney+ Original Series Forky Asks a Question."  --Super Goku V (talk) 06:30, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I wasn't so much doubting the 2019 gig but wondering if she'd worked at all since. (Edit: Or are you saying the "later" is a later year; I didn't read it that way.) But I say go ahead and change the end date to 2019. I'm conservative about such things, and I'm not sure how useful they really are. Doing a very brief experimental TV thing in 1939 to me does not really launch an "active career," but I'm not going down that road. Moncrief (talk) 06:43, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * In television, this much is true, but the Betty White: A Celebration documentary gives her a 2022 credit in her main infobox. So in TV she only goes to 2019 but in general to 2022--CreecregofLife (talk) 06:59, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for pointing that out. I have fixed it to 2019 for now.  (I will say that it seems like the last thing she did was Forky Asks.)  --Super Goku V (talk) 11:42, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I just thought you wanted a source for the 2019 work for some reason. Sorry for misunderstanding.  --Super Goku V (talk) 07:04, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, no problem. Moncrief (talk) 07:58, 8 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Possible point contention is the years Betty was active. Her last credits as an actress were in 2019. 2607:FEA8:5CA1:8F40:993E:2E16:95BA:64F7 (talk) 23:55, 13 January 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:5CA1:8F40:8903:8579:2AC4:47D6 (talk)
 * I actually did make the change to 2019, but it was changed back by another user and I didn't bother dealing with it. I am supportive of switching it back to 2019 unless there is something that has been overlooked.  --Super Goku V (talk) 15:18, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Biden and Obamas
Both should not appear on Betty White’s page. Stop making things political. I know there are more important and relevant tribute quotes than these two. 2600:1700:2A50:5210:5D8D:179:FC32:FF90 (talk) 19:24, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi -- I can understand your point about the Obamas, but not about Biden. Despite of your personal views of him, he is the current President of the United States, so of course it is notable if he makes comment on something. Your President doesn't comment every time someone dies. This should be rectified. I'm British and I can see why it would be notable to mention your President, as we would with our PM should they comment on something in this context, if she was British too.

Comments on death
Why is it of note that Joe Biden and Barack Obama, Michelle Obama made comments about her death? Many people made comments and were moved by her death. Why were they noted as opposed to other high profile actors, let’s say? Perhaps your politics are showing, as usual, Wikipedia. 2600:6C5D:6300:44F:357D:EAD8:6792:5A58 (talk) 07:52, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
 * There have been several discussions regarding who should/shouldn't be mentioned in the death/tributes section, including some related to Joe Biden. The two that seem relevant enough to mention explicitly are the US Army and MLK center. Joe Biden and the Obamas seem relevant enough, but don't really add anything either. I think it would be fine to trim the section down to this (remove those two sentences and move the citations to a general "politicians" reference): DirkDouse (talk) 11:25, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
 * White's death was met with statements of sympathy and tribute from many people and organizations. The United States Army released a statement, as White had volunteered with the American Women's Voluntary Services during World War II. Additionally, the Martin Luther King Jr. Center tweeted their condolences and praised White for her early support of racial equality. There were additional tributes from numerous media organizations, celebrities, political commentators, sports teams, musicians, politicians, and other public figures. White's star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame was flooded with flowers and tributes within hours of the announcement of her death.
 * Change made as proposed above. DirkDouse (talk) 19:39, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2022
Hi Betty whites birthdate is severely incorrect. She was Born January 1st 1922.

Thank you. 2607:FEA8:C39F:F6AD:2DDF:6B81:3A42:1E2F (talk) 10:14, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:22, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2022 (2)
Good morning, I am shocked to see that Betty whites age when she died was 99, and it was on Decemeber 31st, 2 days before her 100th birthday.. her birthdate was January 2nd 1992 Babyfoxxi0317 (talk) 10:19, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:22, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Her dob
Has anyone else noted her published date of brith is incorrect? It is set to January 17th 1922... Babyfoxxi0317 (talk) 10:21, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * As a brief request, please keep any additional edits in the same section instead of in a new section.
 * As for her birthday, do you have any website that is reliable or another source like a book that says her birthday is not January 17th? --Super Goku V (talk) 17:58, 18 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: These (frankly, rather bizarre) DOB comments are not substantiated in anything, whereas her uncontroversially accepted January 17, 1922, birthdate has appeared in WP:RS media for decades, such as this article from 1986: . Please stop wasting our time. At the very least, don't just make a random comment, but show us what evidence you think you have for your assertion. Please note that if you continue to add new sections here saying the same thing while providing no evidence, your requests may be deleted, per WP:NOTGETTINGIT. Moncrief (talk) 21:38, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

-- @Babyfoxxi0317 you are wrong, White's birthday was January 17th, 1922. She has mentioned this vocally in interviews so there really is no need to suggest an adit like this.== Cause of death ==

Betty White had an autopsy just a few days ago and they confirmed her cause of death I think you should update it to show her cause of death which was a cerebralvascular accident a.k.a. a stroke 174.255.69.89 (talk) 06:02, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Did you actually look at the article or, for that matter, the comment above yours? It's in there. Wikipedia gets edited in real time. Moncrief (talk) 06:15, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Wow. Nasty reply. You can't just say "It's there now. Thanks?" or something along those lines? And no, Wikipedia does not get edited immediately, if that's what you're trying to claim. 2600:1700:BC01:9B0:ECA8:69C6:6428:C486 (talk) 01:49, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Of course Wikipedia gets edited in real time -- yes, immediately. Often within a minute of major news being announced. Seconds, in some cases, such as awards shows and sporting events. I'm sorry my tone was abrupt. There were more requests here at the time, some of them asking for exactly the same thing and already responded to, and I was frustrated by the fact that the people requesting the same thing weren't reading the other requests. This section can certainly be archived now too, by the way. Moncrief (talk) 03:52, 18 February 2022 (UTC)