Talk:Celibacy/Archive 1

Catholic priests
I'd like to add something about Catholic priests, in terms of both celibacy and chastity. In particular, let's address the issue of homosexual priests. Since Catholicism does not deem homosexality itself sinful, a homosexual ought to be able to take the same vow of chastity (or celibacy?) as any other priest. Is this correct? Ed Poor 17:51, 18 December 2001 (UTC)

Yes -Ben 05:53, 27 April 2002 (UTC)

Not exactly. The recent Vatican document argues that celibacy in the sense of priestly celibacy is not a gift to someone who is homosexual and uninterested in marriage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cestusdei (talk • contribs) 05:44, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

By the way, the old articles on celibacy and chastity were identical with the last paragraph of the Holy Orders article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Conversion script (talk • contribs) 15:43, 25 February 2002 (UTC)

This looks like as good a place as any to put this:

The Catholic and Orthodox churches holds themselves to Canon 6 of the Council of Trullo in 692, which reads as follows:

"Since it is declared in the apostolic canons that of those who are advanced to the clergy unmarried, only lectors and cantors are able to marry; we also, maintaining this, determine that henceforth it is in nowise lawful for any subdeacon, deacon or presbyter after his ordination to contract matrimony but if he shall have dared to do so, let him be deposed. And if any of those who enter the clergy, wishes to be joined to a wife in lawful marriage before he is ordained subdeacon, deacon, or presbyter, let it be done." -Ben Brumfield 05:53, 27 April 2002 (UTC)


 * Two points: 1. it's the Council IN Trullo rather than OF. The Trullo was a part of the imperial palace at Constantinople, so it is like referring to the Capitol in our nation's Capital, or like the legislative affairs column in a state-capital newspaper being called "Under the Dome." Indeed, I think 'Trullo' may be a version of 'vault' or 'dome'.  2. The Latin Church did not accept the disciplinary canons of the Council in Trullo.  Western rules on celibacy do not base themselves on that council (which also prohibited representations of Christ as a Lamb [Lamb of God] - one of the first signs of the coming Iconoclastic controversy).  The rules for the non-Latin rites of the Catholic Church are actually separate (with their own ocde of canon law). MichaelTinkler 06:09, 27 April 2002 (UTC)

Thank you
Thank you for resonding for my call to assistance, AdelaMae and Hideouslywrinkled. Unfortunately, there were some mistakes. The Reformers did not give alternative interpretations of verses cited in favor of celibacy. hey cited verses they thought were against it, and their reasoning belongs in the Humor section (read the verses they cited). If it was people outside the Church thinking married priesthood was a solution, it would not even be mentioned (Catholics do not tell Muslims what colors they should paint their mosques to attract converts). Unfortunately, this opinion is held by many high-rank officials in the Church (but note: the insincere ones). And, as I said previously, "The sectors of the Church where vocations are the highest are those where the Church's teachings are followed, and the sectors where these teachings are not followed have the lowest." The data DOES exist, but I need to find it.JBogdan 15:44, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Other traditions following celibacy
I have added some reference to celebacy being practiced in both Hindu and Buddhist traditions. Certainly it is not only practiced within the Christian world - maybe people could expand these areas in order to make the article more 'global' in it's focus. How is it seen in different countries and cultures around the world? 82.163.63.228 15:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Proposed infobox for individual birth control method articles
Let's all work on reaching a consensus for a new infobox to be placed on each individual birth control method's article. I've created one to start with on the Wikipedia Proposed Infoboxes page, so go check it out and get involved in the process. MamaGeek (Talk/Contrib) 12:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Why Musical Linguist is downgrading the Wikipedia by deleting contributions?
I recently added a section about History of Celibacy. My additions showed when and who started the tradition of celibacy in Catholic Church.

Why Musical Linguist deleted them?

In my opinion he is downgrading Wikipedia by selectively editing chosen articles to enforce his agenda. The discussion about his other contribution clearly show that.

Please, let the moderator show his clear view and ban Musical Linguist from constant misediting wikipedia pages.

Thank you. User:83.19.104.34

Why did she do it? - Because your edits were downgrading WP by adding false information.


 * Clerics (or laypeople) were never allowed by canon law to have concubines. Concubines are "unlawful" by definition.
 * Clerics were allowed to keep wives married before their ordination - in the Latin Rite up to the 11th century - in the Eastern Rites until today.
 * Clerics were never allowed to marry, only allowed to retain their wives, albeit under certain restrictions.
 * The ordinance of Pelagius I, if he issued such a thing, has nothing to do with marriages. It merely protects Church property and reiterates something that should be obvious to any moral person, Christian or not.
 * There is no doubt that many clerics had, in spite of canon law and morality, concubines and hence there are also reiterations of the ban, e.g. by Pope Benedict VIII.
 * The property question certainly has a part in the 11th century implementation of general celibacy, but you are overdoing it. Spiritual reasons were much more prevalent, as many believers demanded to have celibate priests.

Good day, Str1977 (smile back) 09:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Redirect
The article homosexual celibacy redirects to this page, but this page lacks any mention of celibacy due to reasons involving sexual or gender identity, nor anything of that nature. While it probably can fall into reasons for celibacy, it could potentially be an additional section; I have therefore added an request for expansion. (And please don't suggest that it should go into the homosexuality article instead - that thing is huge already!) - Heartofgoldfish 15:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Not my area, but I'll consider it.--T. Anthony 15:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Religious/clerical celibacy
I would suggest the whole section on religious celibacy is too focused on the Catholic church. Of course it is a major topic of debate and interest within that Church, but surely the subject of the Catholic view of celibacy should be a subset (albeit a substantial one) of a general heading on celibacy due to religious belief, since practitioners of other variants of Christendom (and of other faiths) may also choose celibacy because of their beliefs. 82.153.129.223 23:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

There's a seperate article on clerical celibacy that I think it would be better for this article to refer users to who are interested in that aspect of celibacy. The whole article needs a re0write and I've started to do a bit of a literature search (this not being my field, it takes days at the library which are few and far between :-). From what I've seen so far, we should have 4 sections on the "whys": religious belief and practice, physical/biological causes; social reasons (including involuntary celibacy); and cultural forces. There has been a request to cover homosexual celibacy (and the article homosexual celibacy points to this article), but from my search so far, homosexual celibacy doesn't seem to be rooted in anything different from hetrosexual celibacy. So I was thinking of incorporating homosexual perspectives throughout the article rather than having a seperate section. -- Siobhan Hansa  00:55, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The article is not that large. How much of it do you want to devote to homosexual celibacy? Is it really that important of a subset? (The figures I've seen indicate it might be overrepresented, but it'd still only be around 15%)--T. Anthony 04:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I wasn't thinking it would be a huge bit, more that it would make it clear that (for the most part) reasons for celibacy, and approaches for handling it, were not related to sexual orientation. I'm still reading up on this, so I'm not clear how I'd do it. Feel free to edit yourself :-) -- Siobhan  Hansa  13:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge this with 'clerical celibacy'?
I think this page should be merged with the entry about 'clerical celibacy'. While the content is partly the same, the entry for 'clerical celibacy' is more detailed, better structured and less biased. I stumbled upon the 'celibacy' entry when I wanted to find out something about the history of celibacy in the catholic church, but all I found was a biased argument why celibacy is a good thing and why all who say otherwise are 'insincere', 'uninformed' or 'humourous' (luckily, the latter two terms have been edited out). Even the external links don't provide information, but only propaganda for clerical celibacy. As you see, I think the 'clerical celibacy' entry is far superiour and this one should link to the other. 80.218.144.173 (talk) 10:24, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. An article on "celibacy" that doesn't include clerics is fairly meaningless. Why would anyone care? Merge. A link to "clerical celibacy" is okay in the short run, but merge and delete this article long term. -student- 67.8.201.227 (talk) 01:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

List of famous celibates?
I wonder if this article could benefit from a "list of famous celibate people", like the "list of famous..." in other articles such as the one about homosexuality. A rather famous celibate is Paul Erdös, and Friedrich Nietzsche was also one by some accounts.


 * Friedrich Nietzsche died of Syphilis, now: where could he have contracted that as a celibatarian? Kraxler 16:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Good idea.


 * I will add a list of notable celibates to the article. One I can think of is Anne Widdecombe. Walton monarchist89 17:11, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I could have sworn I saw something on TV that said Kyle Brady was celibate, but considering his article says he is married and has a son, that doesn't appear to be correct. Recury 16:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup
This article needs a lot of cleanup. I made a start, but a lot more needs to be done. Here's what I see:

--Shunpiker 17:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * References: Still need 'em, especially in the light of creeping OR and POV. Perhaps some of the "External links" could be converted to references.
 * Roman Catholic clerical celibacy: A lot of this text should be removed, or moved to other articles. (Clerical celibacy, Clerical celibacy (Catholic Church), Roman Catholic sex abuse cases, etc.)
 * Secular celibacy: A lot more information about secular aspects of celibacy would help. Are there organizations or notable manifestos promoting secular celibacy? What about the historical view of the risks of celibacy (e.g green sickness)?

New Page from this one or references for this page?
Just an idea, but can the medical opinions from this site be made into a new page for "Health Benefits of Celibacy"? www.semenloss.com There are many citations from doctors. Unfornuately some of the sources are only from the work of Dr. Bernard. But many of the sources are from the original author's directly. As108 02:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Picture suggestion
This article lacks pictures. How about someone introducing a picture of a couple not engaging in sexual behavior before marriage. Perhaps a shot of people walking down a street, eating some ice-cream or having sexual intercourse. Oops - not that one :-) - Bennyboyz3000 07:09, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Lopsided views
This article is very lopsided; more than half of it touches on the Christian aspect of celibacy. The practical and secular forms of celibacy (such as the involuntary celibacy experienced by professed nerds) are mentioned in the opening, but largely ignored by the rest of the article. Even the section which deals with reasons for celibacy makes a highly biased statement on celibacy by quoting the Apostle Paul verbatim at the end. I'm not sure how we could rebalance the article, because celibacy is usually associated with religion in the first place, but a good start might be to focus more on celibacy in non-Christian religions and the secular celibate. Johnleemk | Talk 17:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * "Nerdish celibacy" is not historically significant or studied enough to matter that much. Although there has been activists of a secular nature who decided to be celibate in order to devote more time to their respective movements. That was more true in the nineteenth century, and earlier, as sex then was more likely to lead to children. I believe several of the early feminists were celibate. And it might be too focused on Christians specifically Catholics. There have been Protestant celibates and among the Religious Society of Friends I think "spinster celibates" were not too unusual. I remember reading something on a Quaker site about them considering celibacy to be one among many sexual options a person may choose. There could maybe be a bit more on people on the autistic spectrum, as well as other conditions, as there are conditions/disabilities that are disproportionately celibate. I believe some autists find sex unpleasant or even disorienting because of neurological factors. Also I think a bit more on celibacy in Dharmic religions could be helpful.--T. Anthony 09:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the Shakers (distinct from the Quakers) should also be mentioned. They have practically died out as a sect because of celibacy and a failure to win converts. Ranthlee 23:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Islam section
I have added the Islam section, with myself being a muslim and already knowing alot about celibacy in Islam.

I have researched alot about it before putting the info in, and have tried to make it as neutral as possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.25.71 (talk) 18:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

POV tag
I'm doing POV tag cleanup. Whenever an POV tag is placed, it is necessary to also post a message in the discussion section stating clearly why it is thought the article does not comply with POV guidelines, and suggestions for how to improve it. This permits discussion and consensus among editors. This is a drive-by tag, which is discouraged in WP, and it shall be removed. Future tags should have discussion posted as to why the tag was placed, and how the topic might be improved. Better yet, edit the topic yourself with the improvements. This statement is not a judgement of content, it is only a cleanup of frivolously and/or arbitrarily placed tags. No discussion, no tag.Jjdon (talk) 17:46, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I have edited one of the reasons for celibacy
The article read like this "An inability to find a sexual partner that one finds acceptable or tolerable" with a link to involuntary Celibacy. Involuntary Celibacy is if a person is unable to find a sexual partner. If one can find a sexual partner but refuse their Celibacy is not Involuntary it is due to their choice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chris smith jones (talk • contribs) 16:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

A reason for celibacy?
I was reading this article and I noticed that one possible reason for celibacy is missing. It is the reason I have chosen to become a celibate: I have a mental disorder that many people are trying to cure (I won't mention which one because it's not relevant in this context), and I have become a celibate so that I cannot have children and therefore cannot contribute to the continuation of this mental disorder's gene.

What I'm saying is, do enough people become celibates for the reason that they cannot reproduce and therefore not give their unborn children undesirable genetic qualities (like defects, mental disorders, ect.)? If so, would this be worth putting on this article? Pippin the Mercury (talk) 00:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that would be a good thing to add, but you've got to find an article or something that mentions this so that you have a citation. Cowgod14 (talk) 21:21, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Why were two celibate people removed?
I added two very well known celibates, Jessica Simpson (took a vow of celibacy at 12 and remain a virgin until her marriage to Nick Lashey) and Britney Spears (famous for her celibacy as a teen) and they were removed without reason. Apparently these were not celibates as they were in their young 20s. I don't believe to be any sort of valid reason for a vow of celibacy to be valid, especially considering Jessica and Britney took a "vow of Celibacy" which is what the article is all about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbx118 (talk • contribs) 15:46, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree that these are cases covered by celibacy as it is discussed in this article. In the lede we define a vow of celibacy as a promise not to enter into marriage or engage in sexual intercourse (my emphasis).  These two cases are more virginity pledges than vows of celibacy. -- SiobhanHansa 20:00, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Celibacy is defined as referring to be being either unmarried or to sexual abstinence., the cases mentioned cover both in this instance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbx118 (talk • contribs) 15:25, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You're reading that as an either one or the other case, but by that reasoning anyone who has sex but isn't married is celibate, which isn't what this article intends. I also think the two cases are much clearer examples of virginity pledges than celibacy.  The list is, to be fair, a huge mess anyway, and it's not as though I think these are the only two poor inclusions.  -- SiobhanHansa 14:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Siobhan - I can surely confirm that no, I'm not reading that as an either one or the other case, I'm using the exact definition given. Jessica Simpson in her case took a vow of celibacy, it doesn't get any clearer or more defined than that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.79.81.125 (talk) 22:27, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * So you're using the idea that every person who is unmarried and is not currently engaging in sex is celibate and from that any star who has ever said that they are (or were once) unmarried and not engaging in sex is a notable celibate?
 * BTW the source you provided for Simpson does not mention a vow of celibacy - in fact it doesn't include the word celibacy or celibate, nor does it say she in anyway said she would refrain from marrying. It says she took a vow of chastity and that she envisioned wedlock as a fairy tale where she would remain a virgin for her husband which indicates that her vow of chastity did not include a conscious decision to refrain from marriage.  I'm just pointing out that these are nuanced terms and you seem to be treating virginity, chastity and celibacy as interchangeable.  -- SiobhanHansa 03:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I am removing again the names of actress Jessica Simpson and Britney Spears a very-well know whore. Get married as a virgin do not implies celibacy. My grandmother and my mother and millions of peoples engaged in their weddings in virgin state, due this was be a cultural ethics. Don't be stupid your moron. Rodrigo Zauli —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.62.161.228 (talk) 14:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

To the Wikipedia Team: Can we discard the above immature comments? I've re-applied the names Britney Spears and Jessica Simpson. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.79.81.125 (talk) 22:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with discarding the stupid/moron comment, though I think the rest of what he said was fine. How about having 2 separate sublists? One list could be for people who are permanently celibate, and the other list could be for people who are only waiting for marriage. Both categories are worth mentioning, but I think they should be separate. There's a big difference between someone who never has sex and someone who only has sex while married. --cowgod14 26 June 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 16:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Anyone who's over about 30 and is still a virgin is unusual in most societies today, but choosing to remain a virgin until marriage is not as unusual as the media might make you think. Some might slip from it if love takes a while to happen, or subsequently become keen on sex as seperate from love, but those who remain celibate because Mr/Mrs Right doesn't come along and they won't settle for Mr/Mrs Right Now are notable.--MartinUK (talk) 18:45, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Main reason for celibacy?
Am I missing a vital piece of context for the "Reasons for celibacy" section of this article? It seems to me that the most obvious reason for celibacy, and one I would like to add to the list, is:

Blackworm 01:53, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * An inability to obtain a willing sexual partner, due to social awkwardness or anxiety, physical or mental handicap, or lack of physical attractiveness and/or financial resources.

Consider it done. Chris Henniker 16:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Original research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.228.106 (talk) 12:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds like common sense. If you can't get something, you can't have it.--MartinUK (talk) 18:56, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Original meaning
"The old meaning of this term was "to have sexual intercourse only with one's wife".

Anybody got a source on the "the original meaning of celibacy" quote? The author seems to be describing what's sometimes referred to as "continence". -Ben Brumfield

Exactly. Leaving aside the fact that celibacy is a noun and "to have sexual intercourse only with one's wife" is a verb, I've checked OED and there's no evidence for any such meaning. The original sense was "unmarried" and the current one is "not having sex". Deleted that sentence. Flapdragon 6 July 2005 22:30 (UTC)

"To have sexual intercourse only with one's wife" is an infinitive phrase, which serves perfecly well as a noun phrase, as in "To have sexual intercourse only with one's wife is a worse fate than reading Wikipedia." The original sense was "unmarried", and the current sense is "unmarried"; the sense "not having sex" is used out of ignorance by people unfamiliar both with the word "celibacy" and the term "sexually abstinent". The manner in which this article vacillates between these senses without any apparent clue that two senses even exist, or that one of them is colloquial and very recent, is clear warning that this article, frankly, sucks. 71.126.140.52 (talk) 06:10, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

This is a response to Ed poor's post.

I believe that if you take a vow of chastisy you should keep it. It doesn't matter if you are homosexual or heterosexual. There have been a lot of things in the news about Priests sleeping with boys because "It is not against the doctrine" This kinda makes me mad. (Gothsrus (talk) 16:26, 19 February 2009 (UTC))

Possible copyvio
Hi. Please see the article history. I removed text added by User_talk:64.252.184.216 which seemed to be a copyright violation from http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1906063,00.html - unless of course Time borrowed it from Wikipedia in the first place? DBaK (talk) 15:47, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Essay from User:Prithviraj chouhan
Hi. Please see the article history. I removed what appeared to be a long and not entirely encyclopaedic essay from User:Prithviraj chouhan. Please feel free to discuss it here if you think it should be in. Thanks DBaK (talk) 15:49, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Celibacy on the Buddhist religion is missing
I am not pro Buddhist but since the monastic tradition of Buddhism whether Mahayana or Theravada practiced celibacy for men & women for thousands of years is a good reason to add the Buddhist religion as one of the advocates of celibacy today.--121.54.68.114 (talk) 12:40, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Needs coverage of health implications
This article really should cover the health implications of celibacy. It kind of glosses over the health disadvantages. Zodon (talk) 09:26, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * They're really health implications of sexual abstinence rather than celibacy, so they're discussed at Sexual abstinence. Pais (talk) 09:37, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Suggest merging all celibacy entries
Currently there is an "involuntary celibacy" entry that exceeds the length of this main celibacy entry. By combining entries the main points will be sorted out and lead down the line to stronger interconnected pages on the topic. For now, there appears to be some pages with social focus, others with psychological, some with heavy opinion statements, etc. This main celibacy page is the correct venue to sort through content and potential wikipedia policy violations (98.218.218.120 (talk) 05:17, 30 October 2010 (UTC)).

Introduction that created dispute
Please correct my point of view if I'm wrong, but I think that the key of celibacy is to avoid civil unions and sexual relationships (not intercourse!). And "abstention from sexual relationships" is correct, but not intercourse.

Maybe it never was. Maybe I'm just dumb. So... just note that. Thank you,184.163.123.4 (talk) 02:45, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * No, celibacy means abstaining from sexual intercourse or other carnal pleasures. in most religions, this is tantamount to abstaining from marriage (since few if any religions condone sexuality outside of marriage), but the key element is maintaining physical purity.  Note that religions often talk about the importance of celibacy prior to marriage (strict Catholic diocese, for instance, will insist that couples remain celibate during their engagement, and technically are supposed to refuse to marry couples that don't).  Full celibacy (such as those that Catholic priests and nuns and Buddhist monks undertake) also prohibits marriage, but not because of the marriage itself: Priests and nuns are doctrinally married to Christ, and Buddhists surrender all worldly cravings.  -- Ludwigs 2  05:11, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Definitions can be confusing, and celibacy is sometimes defined as abstaining from marriage. But as Ludwigs2 suggests, I think that definition stems from the days when "marriage" and "a relationship involving sexual intercourse" were effectively synonyms - and by remaining unmarried, that was effectively saying one was abstaining from sexual intercourse. Today, many people have active sex lives without marrying - but I really don't think anyone would consider that to be celibacy. And to add something to the Buddhist monk thing, in my wife's native Thailand, it's fairly common for married men to become monks for a temporary period - they are required to be celibate during that time, but that means abstaining from sexual intercourse, not getting a divorce. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:04, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Catholic Church
I have studied the Scriptures at length, and have failed to find the ancient tradition spoke of in this section. I also have found that the reference of "The Resurrection" spoken of by the Messiah may be taken out of context. If you read (it isn't hard to do) you will find that the resurrection is BEFORE judgment, when the Bride of The Elohim is chosen. After Judgment, they will be The Elohim's Bride, in Marriage. I have also found, that there seems to be an inconsistency with the whole sentence that contains the phrase "celibacy is not a doctrine of the Church but a church rule or discipline." I would like some elaboration and explanation on this, as I thought (as written in Doctrine), a doctrine is a church rule, law, or discipline (systematic instruction given to a disciple. i.e. an instruction) which fits into "a body of teachings" or "instructions", as noted by Doctrine, as well as the fact that each of these "Church Rules" vary from system to system, they could even fit "as the body of teachings in a branch of knowledge or belief system." One more thing... I would love to see the passage in the Scriptures that allow the Church to go ahead and Override the Elohim's laws, change the festivals, change the day of rest/worship, and create these "new laws." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.238.149.253 (talk) 20:15, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi,

I just skimmed through the article. I didn't read the resurrection bit so I'll leave that.

However the discipline vs doctrine question I can probably assist with. I believe what that is expressing is that Catholics don't believe that God requires priests to be celibate. So in that sense it isn't a doctrine. However there was a long history of problems with the call to live as eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of heaven and the rule attempts to address that. Now I haven't looked at the definitions so you might be right but that is the distinction intended when the terms are used (misused).

You obviously like studying the scriptures at length so I invite you to focus on the New Testament to get the answer to your subsequent questions. Skip past the gospels and you will be getting warm. Since you don't use the term Jehovah can I assume you are a seventh day adventist or are you from a smaller group? Most Christians consider it licit to celebrate Christmas, have the Lord's day as our sabbath and organise housekeeping within the Church. If adventists are anything like their JW offshoots your Bible might be tweaked for your belief system. If so you might not find the stuff and I apologise for sending you on a wild goose chase. Yeenar (talk) 01:57, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

We read that "In the Roman Catholic Church the apostles were considered the first priests and bishops in the Church and the call to be eunuchs in Matthew 19 referred to above is considered to be a call to be sexually continent. This developed into mandatory celibacy for priests who are believed to be the successors of the apostles." I believe that mandatory celibacy is the order of the day in the RC Church so why is the RC Church state of affairs re this topic not removed from the 'Celebicy' section and instead posted in the Involuntary celibacy section?Eog1916 (talk) 06:52, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Because you won't be ordained to priesthood involuntarily.--Turris Davidica (talk) 09:32, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the Eog comment above. Who is to say that RC priest celibacy is voluntary or involuntary? By saying that the article on "Celibacy" refers to only voluntary celibates and inserting the RC priesthood under this, Wiki seems to be assuming that priests freely choose celibacy not just before ordination but throughout their priesthood. In fact, I know of many priests who left active clerical ministry because they struggled for years as involuntary celibate priests. Can we please improve on this asap; it is highly problematic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.7.124 (talk) 22:57, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Socio-sexual activity at a distance
Are people who engage in sexual activity with others at a distance, such as cybersex, sexting and phone sex regarded as celibate if they don't engage in any sexual activity in person with anyone? Does sex chat etc with someone who is miles away from the person mean that the person is not celibate, or does a person have to have actual sex to be not considered celibate? How about a person who chooses to take part in mutual masturbation whilst in the same room with someone, but chooses to never have intercourse - is he celibate? The article should state where the line is drawn to define the threshold of where celibacy begins and ends. 188.28.227.101 (talk) 18:04, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Dada Bhagwan – The Science of Celibacy
Practice of Celibacy There are two things in this world that one should not waste, One is money and the other is semen. Money should not be misused and one should practice Celibacy as much as possible. The ultimate extract of our nourishment is semen and it is dissipated and lost in sex. There are certain nerves in the body that help preserve semen and this in turn protects the body. Therefore, Celibacy should be preserved as much as possible.[38]

Celibacy (Brahmacharya) is the life force of the body (non-self). The ultimate essence of the food we eat and drink is Celibacy. If this essence, Celibacy disappears, then the foundation of the relative self to the Pure Self becomes unstable and loose. And then the exact experience and attainment of the Self becomes very difficult. Therefore, Celibacy is a critical spiritual practice. There is no end to bliss if there is Gnan (Knowledge of the Self) on one side and Celibacy on the other. Then it brings about an unbelievable change. It is because Celibacy is the life force and the essence of the body.[39]

Celibacy should be practiced with understanding. If the fruit of Celibacy is not moksha (Liberation) then,Celibacy is like castration. It will make the body good, strong, and good looking and would live longer. Even a bull becomes strong and healthy.[40]

[edit] The Keys to Practice Celibacy by Dada Bhagwan

•	Unflinching determination to practice Celibacy with the support of Dada’s Science. Dada Bhagwan has shown a way to practice Celibacy; one should have the deep inner intent and second the person’s unflinching determination to do so.[41]

•	3 Vision - stops Sexual Vision: Dada Bhagwan’s three vision is exceptional and is a very powerful tool to help conquer Sexual Vision - the first vision is to see him/her without clothes, the second Vision awareness arises when the body is without the Skin and the third Vision is seeing the intestines, the kind the person sees when the stomach is cut open. Visualize the changes that occur within the intestines, see the blood vessels, fecal matter. This will stop sexual impulse arising.[42]

•	True Repentance and Introspection to help overcome Sexual Thoughts in Akram Science, this is a practical day to day medicine that helps the person to overcome Sexual thoughts and desires. By doing repentance the person is washing away their thoughts or desires which occurred earlier and that helps further, next time the thoughts become weaker so it’s easier to deal with the situation in front of the person. If the has a thought of Sexuality, if the person throws away the thought within two seconds, then the thought completely disappear.[43]

•	The Keys of Celibacy for Married People, This science of Celibacy will liberate anyone, and is applicable to even married people. It is ignorance of the Self that is the obstruction.[44]

•	Exclusive Nature Of Celibacy In Akram Science, If the person takes the Knowledge of the Self through the Self Realization process, then to practice Celibacy would be very easy. [45] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vorajinesh (talk • contribs) 10:15, 22 August 2012 (UTC) Vorajinesh (talk) 10:21, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Two problems. This is all based on primary sources. And the author's reliablility and usefulness is recognized by no own outside of his small, fringe religious community. Independent mainstream scholars have not discussed this seiously and in depth. It therefore violates both WP:RS and WP:WEIGHT. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 11:21, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I changed the definition
The article insisted that celibacy means not being married and insisted that is wasn't about not having sex. It said that not having sex was "chastity." However, that's not what the page on chastity said. This definition of celibacy goes against how the word is used in the rest of the article and how it is used generally. I changed the definition to "not having sex," and included the less common meaning (that is still in dictionaries, though I've never heard the word used that way) at the end of the introduction. A good discussion of celibacy can be found on http://www.answers.com/celibacy/. Another interesting discussion can be found an article that examines how the word celibacy is used: http://asexystuff.blogspot.com/2008/09/what-is-celibacy.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.126.131.113 (talk) 00:27, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Celibacy is not the same as chastity. To be celibate is to be unmarried. To be chaste is to not have sexual intercourse. (Oxford Universal Dictionary Third Edition: Celibacy - The state of living unmarried. Celibate - Unmarried, single, bound not to marry.) A person can be celibate and still have sex. Lettwoman70

Lettwoman70 is correct. Celibacy refers to ones state in regards to marriage. It does not mean "doesnt't have sex" To my limited knowlege there is no such word in English. The word is associted with that definition because in the Judeo/Christian tradition the married state is the only state in which sexual intercourse is acceptable. Even chastity refers to being true to ones married or unmarried state. Therefore, if one is married one may be said to be chaste if one only has sexual intercourse with one's spouse. I do however recognize that the "no sex" definition may be the more prevalent but this work is supposed to show the facts not what is commonly belived. I changed the definition to reflect this.--Kjrjr (talk) 18:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I absolutely agree and I challenge the person who changed the definition to... 'or not having sex' to find any reference to celibacy meaning 'not having sex' previous to Paris Hilton making the vow in the early 2000s. When Hollywood types like Paris Hilton wanted to make vows against having sex, they mistakenly (or on purpose) used the term for a vow of being unmarried 'celibacy' - because it sounds strange. Had she used the correct term like 'chastity', 'continence' or 'abstinence', she would've been saying 'I'm done being a slut for awhile.' PLEASE let's not have Hollywood morons inform our language! If Paris Hilton had said that she had taken a vow of 'Apocalypse' and other idiots followed her lead - would that be the new definition of Apocalypse? Here is a history of celibacy. You will see that the entire focus is 'marriage' not 'sex'. http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/mcgovern/celhist1.html

Here's the Encyclopedia Britannica: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/101371/celibacy

"Celibacy, the state of being unmarried and, therefore, sexually abstinent, usually in association with the role of a religious official or devotee. In its narrow sense, the term is applied only to those for whom the unmarried state is the result of a sacred vow, act of renunciation, or religious conviction. Celibacy has existed in one form or another throughout history and in virtually all the major religions of the world."

Please change it back to the CORRECT definition: 'The state of being unmarried'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.135.82.44 (talk) 18:38, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Celibacy and sexual abstinence
Refererring to this changement: The same IP has repeatedly changed the reasoned and much more detailed statement that celibacy and sexual abstinence are not the same to the meaning that they are the same. Please note: the former statement has been mutally referenced, amongst others by specialist literature.--Turris Davidica (talk) 15:53, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

For the sake of clarity, "repeatedly" means twice. This is also the number of times my changes have been undone by Turris.

First, what is claimed above is false. I did not write that abstinence and celibacy are the same. I wrote that they are similar, but subtly different, reference two online dictionary sources. Here they are for your consideration:

cel·i·ba·cy [sel-uh-buh-see]

1.abstention from sexual relations.

2.abstention by vow from marriage: the celibacy of priests.

3.the state of being unmarried.

(Dictionary.com)

1: the state of not being married

2a: abstention from sexual intercourse b: abstention by vow from marriage

(Merriam Webster)

As can be easily understood from these two independent sources in agreement, "celibacy" refers either to the state of being unmarried or is defined as a subtype of abstinence.

Second, the use of Gabrielle Brown's book is highly inappropriate. It is an opinion and self-help type book, not a reference for defining words. The phrase referenced is "abstinence is a response on the outside to what's going on, and celibacy is a response from the inside". The definition provided, then is "celibacy is a response from the inside" (inside of what? what kind of response?  a response to what?)  This definition is inaccurate and false.

I don't know if Turris is attempting to change the definition of celibacy or to sell Gabrielle Brown's book, but this section needs to be fixed. You can't have a reasonable discussion of a word without first defining the word accurately. 75.65.34.19 (talk) 00:40, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Psychological/Evolutionary Explanation?
I think we should cover the psychological and/or evolutionary explanation for this behaviour. I'm sure someone must have covered it.. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 03:36, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Information rearrangement
This page, Clerical celibacy, Clerical celibacy (Catholic Church) for example seem to cover somewhat overlapping topics - is there a better way we could divvy up all of this information, leaving only brief mentions of the related articles, with section hatnotes leading to the proper main articles? AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 09:00, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose that Sexual abstinence and Chastity be merged into this article, and perhaps add a section describing the etymology and varying uses of the three terms. It does not seem that they are sufficiently different to warrant three articles. As per WP:Merging, pages should be merged if "There are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. Wikipedia is not a dictionary; there does not need to be a separate entry for every concept." It's hard to argue that these three concepts don't have a large overlap.

Elizabeth Abbott, a historian of celibacy/abstinence/chastity, writes in her book A History of Celibacy (p. 3),

"I also drafted a definition of celibacy that discarded the rigidly pedantic and unhelpful distinctions between celibacy, chastity, and virginity, all of which I used as key words in my research. The fact is that, despite dry, dictionary distinctions, they are, practically, synonymous. (emphasis added)"

I agree with this sentiment, except that I think virginity can meaningfully be kept separate.

The reason I think the other two pages should be merged into this one is simply because this one gets more traffic according to this tool. Handcuffed (talk) 22:01, 4 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose merging Sexual abstinence into Celibacy article, per reasons stated at Articles for deletion/Involuntary celibacy (2nd nomination) when editors were trying to decide whether or not to merge Involuntary celibacy into this article. As made clear in that WP:AfD debate, and in the Celibacy article, celibacy is far more associated with religious beliefs than sexual abstinence is. Though the terms celibacy and sexual abstinence are often used interchangeably, they are often distinguished as well. When medical sources and similar sources are speaking of sex education and safe sex, the term sexual abstinence, not celibacy, is usually used to indicate the choice to abstain from sexual activity. The Celibacy article is big enough as it is, and the term sexual abstinence is WP:Notable enough in its own right to warrant its own article. Because of how these two terms are often distinguished, celibacy is more so an aspect of sexual abstinence rather than vice versa. These two Wikipedia articles existing is appropriate WP:Content forking. As for the Chastity article: The term chastity is as wrapped up in religious beliefs as the term celibacy is, as indicated by the Chastity article, so it may be fine to merge it into the Celibacy article. But notice that the lead of the Chastity article currently states, "In the Western world, the term has become closely associated (and is often used interchangeably) with sexual abstinence, especially before marriage." So that is also an argument for merging it into the Sexual abstinence article; however, if the term chastity is not as associated with the term sexual abstinence outside of the Western world, it would be a form of WP:Systematic bias to give the Western usage of the term special weight and merge the Chastity article into the Sexual abstinence article. I'm not sure about merging the Chastity article; it's a historical term that came to refer to the chastity of girls and women more than the chastity of boys and men. Flyer22 (talk) 23:01, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose. We have enough problem as it is to keep concepts clean. Hafspajen (talk) 23:37, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Like the two other editors above, addionally: Chastity is not necessarily the same thing as sexual abstinence. At least the concept of the RCC of chastity includes sexual relationships between married couples. There will be a helluba of problems when merging chastity/sexual abstinence/celibacy against that background. And: why? There is enough stuff to write on any of this topics.--Turris Davidica (talk) 08:56, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment Just because some obscure person at some less known university came up with some results on something that got deleted and unfortunatelly merged here - plus a woman who wrote a book, where she says that she is NOT using the word as the dictionary does, but in a different way. We just simply can't change the encyclopedia and the general common use of those words because of two atypical sources. Hafspajen (talk) 09:49, 6 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose merger -- "Sexual abstinence" is a technical term referring to genital activity, while "Chastity" is a traditional moral/religious virtue and state of mind, while "Celibacy" is basically the state of not being married. I fail to see how obscuring these distinctions would give a useful result... AnonMoos (talk) 15:19, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Removed the top-of-article tagging, since the merge proposal has clearly failed at this point (as far as the discussions of the last three weeks are concerned). AnonMoos (talk) 09:50, 25 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Expand each topic, not merge. The disputed topic seems to be real,and appropriate for an article.Reading over the material at the various locations, I am rather puzzled why it was regarded as fringe in the first place. There seems over the years to have been a consistent effort to remove all serious discussion of less usual forms of sexuality from WP; we seem much more comfortable discussing pornography. It makes an odd mixture.  DGG ( talk ) 02:54, 30 May 2014 (UTC)


 * DGG, the above merger proposal is not about involuntary celibacy. Flyer22 (talk) 16:23, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Feminism
'''The feminist group Cell 16, founded in 1968 by Roxanne Dunbar, was known for its program of celibacy and separation from men, among other things. Considered too extreme by many mainstream feminists, the organization acted as a sort of hard left vanguard. It has been cited as the first organization to advance the concept of separatist feminism. In No More Fun and Games, the organization's radical feminist periodical, Cell Members Roxanne Dunbar and Lisa Leghorn advised women to "separate from men who are not consciously working for female liberation"'''

Moved all this into article Feminism. This is the theoretical foundation for lesbian separatism, and has nothing to do with this article. Stop adding it here. Hafspajen (talk) 13:28, 7 July 2014 (UTC).

Ok, but the article Feminism deleted it. Maranjosie (talk) 13:15, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Did they? Blast. Why? Hafspajen (talk) 13:20, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

The comment by the person who removed it was "Rv recent edits on celibacy as WP:BRD; seems quite UNDUE and FRINGE" 71.175.26.106 (talk) 13:32, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Deletion review
Whether or not to recreate the Involuntary celibacy article is up for discussion at WP:Deletion review. Flyer22 (talk) 19:30, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
 * SIGH, not AGAIN. Hafspajen (talk) 19:42, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Merge proposal
There seems no doubt that "involuntary celibacy" is a thing. However it is not clearly defined in the sense that we have, for example:

and

It is fairly clear that while the older, technical, meaning of celibacy may have related to an unmarried state (indeed the 1933 OED admits no other definition), Wiktionary is quite to correct to ascribe a second meaning "2. (by extension) Abstaining from sexual relations."

And moreover, neither of those meanings are inherently either voluntary or religious.

Therefore the material at User talk:Valoem/Involuntary celibacy that is not undue, belongs to the article Celibacy, at least in the first instance.

Any additional material (that would constitute WP:UNDUE in Celibacy) relating to the condition known as love-shy belongs in that article, since that is the WP:COMMONNAME of the condition.

Involuntary celibacy should redirect to Celibacy as should voluntary celibacy.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 18:22, 19 March 2015 (UTC).


 * Note: This was also the outcome of the second AfD on Involunatry celibacy. I can see that there are people here opposing the inclusion "non-religious" or "non-voluntary" celibacy.  They should not go against the consensus established at AfD, without first establishing a new consensus.  All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 18:37, 19 March 2015 (UTC).


 * Oppose in the most vigorous possible ways - With all respect you seems to omitted reading the rest of the talk page. 80% of it is about  Why not merge. WE are NOT going to start that again. Hafspajen (talk) 19:06, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Per:Talk page guidelines Read the archives: -> If you are a new editor to an article, be sure to read the archives. Not only are content disputes valuable examples of talk page behavior, but they contain a lot of expert knowledge surrounding the topic. You may quickly find your questions and/or objections have already been answered if you try searching all the archives for that article at once using the prefix parameter. Hafspajen (talk) 19:10, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I am not referring to "incel" per User:Tokyogirl79/Sandbox_2 or "Love-shy", but the more general topic, as outlined in User:Valoem/Involuntary celibacy. I specifically made a reservation for "undue", though I am not opposed to a suitable mention of a fringe group or position if properly sourced.
 * There is no good reason for this article to concentrate on religious celibacy. Moreover the insistence of the word "voluntary" is, as above, against the sources, and presumably seen as a way to keep "incel" out of the article.  This it cannot do, since the word "voluntary" is, in a defining sense, illegitimate.
 * All the best: Rich Farmbrough 19:52, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


 * However do you realize that all the information you added were not out of a dictionary, but certain and very few authors very own definition of celibacy - that is rather far from the DEFINITION of the celibacy? You did not added a definition of celibacy but a couple of authors that they themselves do admit that their way of treating the subject is personal and deviant from the mainstream definition? ''


 * You cited Abbott, Elizabeth. But he view is very differes from the mainstream deffinition, as she stated that herself: (page 16-17) : "I also drafted a definition that discarded the rigidly pedantic and unhelpful distinctions between celibacy, chastity and virginity, all of witch I used as key words in my research. Despite dry dictionary definitions they are, in the context of this book, synonyms. Risking tedium... I cite Webster's dictionary: ... celibacy is the state of being unmarried, especially that under a wow."
 * She admits from the beginning that she uses this word in her book differently. And this is only one view; her view. If this author and some few others wishes to use those terms contrary what is the usual, generally accepted definition, well, it is her book, her choice. But what she calls in her book non religious celibacy is actually not celibacy but chastity. She has a doctorate in 19th-century history from McGill University, not sexology or religion history. The New Age stuff you added ... with New Age authors talking about New Celibacy ans New Sex and New Love ...  Well, all this, if it should be added it should be done differently. Hafspajen (talk) 20:15, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I did not add any information, certainly not from Elizabeth Abbott. If we had consensus to limit this article to "the state of being unmarried", we could do so.  However that would not introduce "voluntary" or "religious" as constraints.
 * All the best: Rich Farmbrough 21:15, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's not just "one view, her view" that chastity, celibacy, and virginity are all used, by different people and in different contexts, to describe the same idea. The modern definitions, i.e., in actual dictionaries, do generally include the concept of chastity as an alternative definition.  I believe that you quoted several such alternate definitions on another page not that many hours ago.  "Abstinence from sexual relations" and "deliberate abstinence from sexual activity" seem to be in those definitions, and those are both within Abbott's concept, although they are absent from the pedantic older definitions (the same main definitions that you're rejecting when you present it as solely a voluntary religious practice).  It would make perfect sense for a person who specializes in 19th century history to be aware of how much such a definition has changed in the last few decades.
 * By the way, did you notice that Abbott has an entire chapter about celibacy not always being voluntary, particularly in the non-modern, non-Western world? We shouldn't lose that kind of history in this article.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:09, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Voluntary
I know that this is a contentious topic, because of the effort to get "incel" into Wikipedia. (I don't really care one way or the other about that; the notability is borderline at best, so it could go either way.)

But, really, guys, the very first source in this article directly says "celibacy is often enforced" sometimes. "Enforced" means exactly the opposite of "voluntary". So, sure, if your notion is celibacy is limited purely to religious celibacy chosen by mature adults, I'm willing to say that it's voluntary. But celibacy isn't limited to that. The very source that allegedly says every dictionary declares that it must be voluntary (it says nothing about any dictionaries) says that the most common meaning is just plain "unmarried" ("The term is mostly used in the sense of being unmarried". (It's a book entirely about religion, so the fact that it goes into details about the religion-specific use shouldn't be surprising.)

Given these sources, it is simply not true that absolutely every single one of the actually-celibate people on the planet has made a voluntary choice to remain unmarried or not be sexually active. It could be that something else is forcing them to be celibate (exactly like that first source says). If you really think that anyone who isn't married and/or having sex is doing that "by choice", then you should spend a month improving our article on Sexuality and disability. Or Prison sexuality, to give another example of non-voluntary celibacy that's mentioned in the first source. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:57, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, that on depends on how you define celibacy. Not having sex is not always voluntarily. But here you chose to call the people living in prison or having a disability to call it live in celibacy ... What you cite is a the Encyclopedia of Gender and Society, Volume 1. Can't check source, but it is a sentence cited from the book, used ... as some books in the field of sociology tend nowadays to use it. But it is not a definition of the celibacy. I don't know where that sentence was coming from, but I think it could have been one of the arguments to add incel. Try instead to check the definition in all major lexicons and dictionaries. Hafspajen (talk) 03:05, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Excuse me if this seems pedantic for a moment, but you have falsely accused me. I am not defining celibacy at all.  I am quoting to you exactly what the WP:Reliable source says about it.  We have to follow the sources, even if we disagree with them.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:38, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Here we have the Encyclopedia Britannica: "Celibacy, the state of being unmarried and, therefore, sexually abstinent, usually in association with the role of a religious official or devotee. In its narrow sense, the term is applied only to those for whom the unmarried state is the result of a sacred vow, act of renunciation, or religious conviction. Celibacy has existed in one form or another throughout history and in virtually all the major religions of the world." Hafspajen (talk) 03:14, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Either way, it is the deliberate abstinence from sexual activity, usually in connection with a religious role or practice., according to Britannica Concise Encyclopedia - page 359 it is the state of being unmarried - used in the sense of complete abstinence from marriage; generally for religious resons... Hafspajen (talk) 03:25, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The Oxford Dictionary is formulating it as: The state of abstaining from marriage and sexual relations. To abstain is defined as: Restrain oneself from doing or enjoying something.
 * Children's ... - Britannica is even more outspoken:  A voluntary refusal to marry or engage in sexual intercourse, celibacy is often associated with taking religious vows. The three types of religious celibacy are sacerdotal, monastic, and institutional. That is a definition. Hafspajen (talk) 03:18, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2011 by defines it as:


 * 1. Abstinence from sexual relations.
 * 2. The condition of remaining unmarried, especially for religious reasons.


 * The Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. defines it as

1. abstention from sexual relations. 2. abstention by vow from marriage. 3. the state of being unmarried. Hafspajen (talk) 03:43, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Removed until there is consensus for such changes, which seems like little more than incel dogma. Tarc (talk) 03:15, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


 * These are the changes; all that I will state on the matter is that WhatamIdoing was following the sources, like she always does. For example, isn't stating "All dictionaries" WP:Synthesis in this case? That's Hafspajen's wording. Simply stating "Dictionaries" in place of "All dictionaries" would suffice. Flyer22 (talk) 04:13, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that, Rich Farmbrough. Flyer22 (talk) 18:48, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Really? Is Brown, Gabrielle. The New Celibacy: A Journey to Love, Intimacy, and Good Health in a New Age'' - the new definition of celibacy? A New Age style definition is better than the Encyclopedia Britannica? READ at least the source. It say that it is using the word differently from the original meaning. Hafspajen (talk) 19:22, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * She is also talking about The New Sex, not only about The New Celibacy. Shall we start rewriting our article on Sex too, according to HER definition or WHAT? Hafspajen (talk) 19:52, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The only source you mentioned that uses the word voluntary is "Kids Britannica". All the best: Rich Farmbrough 21:07, 19 March 2015‎ (UTC)


 * This is WP:Synthesis because the "All dictionaries define celibacy as necessarily voluntary." sentence is not supported by the source. And even if it did state that, it's not true, as is clear by looking at different dictionary definitions of celibacy. Also, linking dictionary was unnecessary WP:Overlinking; people usually know what a dictionary is. Flyer22 (talk) 21:06, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I completely agree. That sentence violates every concept behind verifiability.  It is not in the cited source.  It's not even sort of, kind of, maybe in the source if you squint a bit.  It's not there at all.
 * Hafspajen, let me make this very easy for you. If you want to write that "dictionaries say this" or "all dictionaries say that", then you must cite, at the absolute, rock-bottom minimum, a source that actually contains the word dictionaries somewhere in it.  The encyclopedia that you've cited there does not contain the word dictionaries (in the plural) anywhere in the entire volume (and none of the four instances of dictionary in the singular have anything to do with its three-paragraph-long entry on celibacy).  WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:38, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Comment: Editor Rich Farmbrough took it upon himself to redirect voluntary celibacy to celibacy as a way to single-handedly bypass consensus while the issue is still being discussed. I nominated it for speedy deletion until some form of consensus is reached, because it's a first step to redirecting "involuntary celibacy" in a similar way. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 07:34, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I think that your assumption that it has anything to do with redirecting anything else is wrong. Even if it were part of a larger stand, then redirecting "voluntary" here could just as easily be a prelude to sending "involuntary" somewhere else.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:20, 20 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Hafspajen, this edit summary is inappropriate, and that text is still a WP:Synthesis violation. WhatamIdoing, Rich Farmbrough and I are going by what the WP:Reliable sources state on that matter; the only POV-pushing we are doing in that regard is going by what the sources state/noting here on this talk page what they don't state. I always follow what the WP:Reliable sources state, with WP:Due weight, as you should very well know by now, since I have corrected you various times at this article on that matter. I hardly care about this involuntary celibacy hoopla, and certainly have not commented a lot on the matter. Do I not see a problem with involuntary celibacy being covered in the Celibacy article? You are damn right I do not. That does not mean that I am pushing any POV on this topic. You, on the other hand? Let's just state that I am tired of reading both sides of this dispute. Flyer22 (talk) 19:56, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Hmm. Isn't Merriam–Webster considered a "major" dictionary these days?  "the state of not being married" is the primary definition.  Also, did you notice that you cited four encyclopedias and only two dictionaries?
 * I think it's time to take this to NORN. I'll post the link in a moment.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:12, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard#All_dictionaries_say. Please share your views there.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:36, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Incels article created to get around WP:Consensus against creating involuntary celibacy/incel topic
Yes, it has been created again, in yet another form. This is why I stated at Talk:Incels, "Coming from this matter after following MurderByDeadcopy's edit history minutes ago, I see that the article 'Incels' has been created to get around the WP:Consensus formed on this topic at Articles for deletion/Involuntary celibacy (2nd nomination) and at Deletion review/Log/2014 December 7. Because of this, I am WP:Pinging Sandstein, who closed the deletion review, and I will be alerting Talk:Celibacy to the existence of this article."

My only problem with the Incels article existing is that it was created to get around WP:Consensus. And let's not forget Articles for deletion/Involuntary celibacy (3rd nomination), which was a few months ago. In that discussion, I supported the existence of that article (though I was more so for a merge). But, alas, WP:Consensus was against that support. Flyer22 (talk) 21:17, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Also WP:Pinging Juliancolton, who closed the third deletion nomination. Flyer22 (talk) 21:18, 8 October 2015 (UTC)


 * I support deleting incels or at the very least merging it, but I'd prefer the first. MurderByDeadcopy"bang!" 21:26, 8 October 2015 (UTC)


 * My God... they never stop, do they? Mythic Writerlord (talk) 21:59, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It looks like someone has sent it to AFD. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:19, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Rahul Krishnan sessions
I've twice removed variations of the mention that "Rahul Krishnan organised workshops on Celibacy and Social Pressure in University of Pennsylvania from 2009-10". The material is being added by. The statement is unsourced, identifying a random person offering the workshops, with no indication that the workshops were any more notable than the hundred or even thousands of other such workshops offered at schools and youth programs elsewhere. I don't see any encyclopedic value offered by the statement. As the material has once more been restored, I'm bringing it to the talkpage for further discussion. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 06:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC)