Talk:Ernst von Dohnányi

Cello concertos
Re: "He liked to write cello concertos" - Only one of Dohnanyi's works is for cello and orchestra, and it isn't a sonamed concerto (Concertstuck, op 12). ? Schissel 18:00, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

More Importantly___
There is already a Erno von Dohnanyi. Merge? Delete this? Schissel 18:03, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)


 * I think all common mispellings should redirect to the name properly spelled. However, there is also the problem that the Hungarian "umlaut" is not quite the same thing as the German umlaut. The Hungarian character is graphically different and has its own Unicode code point and associated canonical decompositions. But there's also the problem of whether or not the English Wikipedia can properly render titles and links with such characters. So having the article at Ernö rather than Ern&#337; seems like a second best solution to me. Dmetric 19:38, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * There are in fact two Hungarian "umlauts": the short "umlaut" as in 'ö' and the long "umlaut" as in '&#337;'. They differ in pronunciation only in duration.  38.117.238.82 06:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The reason I originally asked was different, I fear! &mdash; the difference in content was more or less what concerned me. They've now been successfully merged, though. Schissel - bowl listen 23:25, Jan 9, 2005 (UTC)


 * I merged them, and I attempted to find all possible articles with alternate spellings and redirect them to this page. The spelling on this page is typically the way it appears on recordings. --HK 16:05, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hans von Dohnányi
I recent edit indicates that Hans was executed for his role in a "plot to assassinate Hitler." Do we know this for certain? I had originally added the reference to Hans having distinguished himself in the Anti-Nazi resistance, which I knew from my readings on Bonhoeffer. If there is a reliable source for this, it should certainly be in the article, but I would go a step further: Wikipedia could use an article on Hans von Dohnányi, and maybe the author of the recent edit could supply it. --HK 21:50, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Assumed Nobiliary Particle "von"
I understand that Dohnanyi had no entitlement to use "von" in his name, either through inheritance or ennoblement. He simply chose to start using it. Do we have any info about when the change occurred, what were his reasons for doing so, and what was the reaction to him adopting both the "von", and using Ernst in place of Erno. JackofOz 07:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * And, since he obviously did that, why isn't the article under that name? Gene Nygaard 04:10, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I note that we make no mention of the name by which he became best known, Ernst von Dohnanyi. Surely we need to say something about this.  --  JackofOz (talk) 00:50, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Restoring infobox
The reason given was that a dubious paragraph at the classical music wikiproject written by the guy who has single handedly remove infoboxes across classical music articles. But he neglects to note that this page is not within the scope of the classical music wikiproject (it only covers those articles that quote that are not covered by other music related projects). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.232.251.233 (talk) 23:52, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Violation of Wikipedia's "Original Research" Policy, of policy on Use of Self-Published Sources, and of Neutral POV
I have removed most of the section accusing Dohnanyi of Nazi activities and replaced it with material from published or refereed sources. My reasoning: in its previous form this entry seemed to me to violate Wikipedia's prohibition against publishing original material, using self-published sources, and possibly the Neutral POV policy. Its presentation of the charge that Dohnanyi was a Nazi has become notorious among musicologists, who use it to demonstrate to students why they should never trust Wikipedia as a source. The standard scholarly source, New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musician (Oxford Music Online), says in the current edition (accessed online on April 7, 2015) that claims of Nazi collaboration by Dohnanyi (as presented in Wikipedia) are merely "rumours" and "so-called charges (never substantiated)," and that they "made it impossible for Dohnanyi to defend himself" and that during World War II "much of his time was devoted to the fight against growing Nazi influences." It also asserts Dohnanyi's "unassailability" on "ethical grounds." I'll post the full passage below.

Why the difference from Wikipedia, which asserts that these rumours are true? Because the charges in Wikipedia are based on a single, unpublished source: the memoirs of Gabriel Banat (for whom, to be clear, I have the deepest personal respect) - and since these are not yet published at all, much less by a third-party publishing house with editors, peer reviewers, and referees, their appearance in Wikipedia IS their publication. (The entry also referenced testimony delivered by Leo Weiner but not published, and thus taken by Wikipedia without substantiation. Its mention here, too, was therefore an original publication.)

Mr. Banat's wartime experiences were hellish and certainly deserving of our deepest sympathy and respect, as are his career and many achievements - but they are not authoritative or scholarly evidence in the case of Dohnanyi. For that, we need archival third-party published objective evidence (such as that painstakingly collected in archives in Budapest by James A. Grymes - reference below). These sources must be considered more reliable than rumours heard in Budapest at the time or recollections from 60 years ago - until these can be supplemented with published third-party verification.

A charge so defamatory as Nazi activities should not be published originally in a Wikipedia entry until it can be confirmed by publication (again, to meet Wikipedia standards, self-publication would not be adequate). Now, if published scholarly evidence does emerge demonstrating that Dohnanyi collaborated, it would be VERY important for both Wikipedia and New Grove to include it, but until it does it is not appropriate to post it in Wikipedia.

I realize that these words may anger someone, but that is certainly not my intention. I greatly admire Mr. Banat as a musician and author. He (or whoever it is that was drawing on his memoirs in this Wikipedia entry) should most certainly publish all the evidence they can collect on Dohnanyi in the finest publications, and I hope they will. But they should not be using the Wikipedia entry as their primary or initial publication space.

Here is the full text from New Grove in 2015: "From 1939 much of [Dohnanyi's] time was devoted to the fight against growing Nazi influences. By 1941 he had resigned his directorial post at the Academy, rather than submit to the anti-Jewish legislation. In his orchestra he succeeded in keeping on all Jewish members until two months after the German occupation of Hungary, when he disbanded the ensemble. In November 1944 he went to Austria, a decision which drew criticism for many years. In fact, Dohnányi was criticized either from the left or from the right for most of his deeds, from his student days on. The explanation may be found in his unassailability on musical or ethical grounds. Thus attacks were launched on political premises, according to the ever-changing Hungarian spectrum. Dohnányi, who happened to be apolitical, possibly had enough experience to foresee coming events and chose not to await the next offensive, unleashed in 1945 and reverberating long after. The ‘accusations’ levelled against him always took the form of rumours. This, and the magnitude of the so-called charges (never substantiated), made it impossible for Dohnányi to defend himself. "

And here is the latest from Grymes - not yet published, unlike his book, but presented at a scholarly conference so at least refereed: http://www.jamesagrymes.com/dohnanyi-and-the-hungarian-holocaust/ Brozhnik (talk) 02:56, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20040708231601/http://www.zti.hu/dohnanyi/en/docs/2002_abstracts.htm to http://www.zti.hu/dohnanyi/en/docs/2002_abstracts.htm
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070502190046/http://www.zti.hu/dohnanyi/en/docs/discography.htm to http://www.zti.hu/dohnanyi/en/docs/discography.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110527114304/http://www.zti.hu/dohnanyi/en/lectures/2003_11_14.htm to http://www.zti.hu/dohnanyi/en/lectures/2003_11_14.htm
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Requested move 18 May 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 00:55, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Ernő Dohnányi → Ernst von Dohnányi – This is the name the subject chose to use professionally, the one he used when living in an English-speaking country (the U.S.) and the one he was buried under. It is is also far more common in the artcle's sources and marginally more so in print sources. NB WP:STAGENAME. —  AjaxSmack 20:05, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Support "Ernst von", but Oppose "Dohnányi". His professional name did not include the diacritic and his gravestone does not include it either. The best known form is Ernst von Dohnanyi.   Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:41, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Wow, I never knew that! Do you have a source that explicitly says why his gravestone and professional name omits the diacritic? Zingarese (talk) 15:25, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Support—Definitely. Other language-WPs can call him what they like: this is the name used in English. Tony (talk)  08:17, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Support. Common name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:59, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Support per nomination. My editions of Dohnányi's music all carry the name Ernst von Dohnányi. Zingarese (talk) 15:24, 24 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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