Talk:Ethanol fuel in Brazil

Comments
Flex-fuel cars drive record Brazil Dec auto sales:

"[...] In December [2005], flex-fuel cars registered record monthly sales of 120,000 units, up 15 percent from November in the category. After the technology was launched in early 2003, sales of flex-fuel models have grown steadily and accounted for 71 percent of total vehicle sales in December. In December 2004, flex-fuel sales were 29 percent of total vehicle sales."


 * Article at Reuters

--Pinnecco 15:54, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

The Present Day
I think this article is getting into shape, but there are many PoVs and texts that are about Brazil's first introductions of Alcohol fuel (the late 70s and 80s). For example, the caption under the poster warning about mixing fuels is old and outdated, and perhaps it would be better if we remove it (although I updated the caption text before).

Here are current information about Ethanol in Brazil (report from VEJA):


 * Last December [2005], 73% of all cars sold in Brazil worked with flex-fuel engines.


 * With the success of flex-fuel cars, Brasil is now the first country to make VIABLE the production and consume of an alternative energy fuel.


 * Thanks to the Ethanol, Brazil is about to be auto-suficient in its oil production. This is a huge leap considering that about 10 years ago Brazil had to import half of the petrol it consumed. This success is also possible based on the cutting edge technology developed by Petrobras for deep-water exploration, since more than 65% of Brazil's oild fields are 400 meters under the sea. Brazil's auto suficiency will be met with the introduction of Petrobras P-50 platform which will happen in the next weeks.


 * The return of Ethanol fuel in Brazil (thanks to the introduction of flex-engines) helped the country to reduce its historical dependency of imported oil. Only this year, Brazil will produce 18 bilion litters of alcohol and will keep its leadership as the biggest Ethanol producer.


 * Brazil is about to start exporting Ethanol to Japan

--Pinnecco 10:25, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Amazon rainforest
"Also, Brazil would probably want to use its own wood - however, the Amazon rainforest is threatened enough as it is and should not be tampered with further." I agree with that statement but I don't think that kind of language is suitable for an encyclopedia. It's not our business to write about what should and what souldn't be done but to report the facts. If there's no objections in the next few days I'll delete that line. --cassini83 18:35, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed! --Pinnecco 20:21, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Brazil to displace diesel with soybean based biodiesel
Published on Sunday, April 17, 2005 by the Star Tribune (Minneapolis, MN) The Future of Ethanol by David Morris Want to see the potential of biofuels? Visit Brazil, as I did a few weeks ago.

In Brazil, by law, all gasoline contains a minimum of 25 percent alcohol. Yet ethanol is so popular it actually accounts for 40 percent of all vehicle fuel.

By 2007, 100 percent of all new Brazilian cars may be able to run on 100 percent ethanol. Brazilian sugar-cane-fed biorefineries will be capable of producing sufficient ethanol to allow the entire fleet, new and old cars alike, to do so.

In Brazil, ethanol is now being used in aviation. Small planes, like crop dusters, are switching to ethanol because it is a superior fuel and is more widely available, even in remote parts of the country, than conventional aviation fuel.

Its stunning success with ethanol has encouraged Brazil to begin displacing diesel fuel with vegetable oils from its vast soybean crop. Within 15 years it expects to substitute biodiesel for 20 percent of its conventional diesel.

Removal of NPOV
While I think that there are some bias in most parts of this article i could not find a discussion about it so it is impossible to know what is the NPOV dispute in that section. Feel free to restate the NPOV violation but state why you thing that there is a bias on that section of the text. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alvaroludolf (talk • contribs) 15:41, 5 February 2007 (UTC).


 * "Unfortunately, despite this cost differential in production..." That's a pretty clear POV, which continues through the paragraph.  None of what I see in that paragraph is factually false, but what does it omit?  Sadly, I don't know that -- the authors of the article are clearly better informed than I am.  I'd be tempted to remove 'unfortunately' except that then the NPOV violation is harder to spot.  The next few sections are also dubiously neutral (albeit also quite well-written). Bhudson (talk) 20:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Some recent articles Feb/07 which might be worth to read

 * Miami Herald: U.S., Brazil should lead biofuel plan (OPINION)
 * Carbon News and Info: US, Brazil plan biofuel alliance
 * Washington Post: Latin America -- the 'Persian Gulf' of Biofuels?

--Pinnecco 09:53, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

This blurb doesn't seem relevant
"This is small by today's standards, about one third the size of new plants. Finland's fifth nuclear plant currently under construction is for 1,600 MW. This plant's expected cost of electricity production is EUR 2.37 c/kWh which for Finland was cheaper than coal or natural gas at 2003 prices, not counting carbon emission costs or penalties for the carbon based fuels. http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf76.htm"

We are talking about Ethanol fuel in Brazil. I don't think we need to know the Euro cost of nuclear energy in Finland... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Anarchman (talk • contribs) 21:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

Why all of this irrelevant info on Bagasse in this article?
Why is info about electricity generation from bagasse in this article about ethanol?

It's OK for info about the use of bagasse by-products in the use of fermentation and sale of excess electricity from fermentation plants, but not this large section about this. I think it's out of place.

I think that the info on bagasse be moved to the sparse article on bagasse, and that this article on ethanol use in Brazil then reference and link to that.

If nobody objects, I'll be doing that sometime in the future. Thanks.

This is because Bagasse energy production makes the cycle sustainable. nihil (talk) 13:18, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Understanding the graph
I want to make sure I understand what I am reading here:

sugarecane: 344 million metric tonnes (50% sugar, 50% alcohol) sugar:	23 million tonnes (30% is exported) ethanol:	14 million m³ (7.5 anhydrous, 6.5 hydrated; 2.4% is exported

I believe this says that there were 344 mt of cane produced, and that it was used 50/50 for sugar and ethanol. In other words, 172 mt were used for ethanol production. Is this correct? Can someone tell me for sure one way or the other?

My goal here is to answer the question "how much sugarcane is needed to produce a million litres of ethanol". This seemingly important number isn't found in that simple form in any of the articles I've looked at here!

Maury (talk) 13:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the number you're looking for is 85 liters/tonne. That's the conversion factor a Brazil official presented at a U.S. Senate hearing last year.  (see, a slide near the end of the presentation compares corn-ethanol liter/tonne to sugar cane's).  This number is roughly consistent with the 14000 liter/172 tonnes implied in this article. InNuce (talk) 19:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Excellent, thank you! I would like to put this somewhere easily accessible, but I'm not sure which article would be most appropriate -- it seems a little off topic here. Maury (talk) 22:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, do you have a similar number for tonnes of sugar processed from one tonne of cane? I ask because the only measurements of production I can find outside Brazil and the US are for sugar production (ie, Cuba's peak was 80 million tonnes) and I'm trying to understand how much cane there is. Maury (talk) 23:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Thats why the Brazil´s economy is so goo0d —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.135.0.165 (talk) 00:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Brazilianethanolposter.JPG
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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Revamping the article for GA
I have been slowly improving the content of this article and today I began major editing and reorganizing to improve and to update the article in order to revamp it to WP:Good Article quality during the following weeks. So collaborations are welcome, as well as suggestions for improvement, and I kindy request to participating editors to please provide WP:RS in all edits. Grammar and style corrections are welcome as English is a second language to me. Some WP format improvements I will work along the was, such as overlinking and sorting the refs in numerical order.--Mariordo (talk) 20:13, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you still need a copy-edit? I'd be happy to help--and then do the GA review, if that's okay. Merpin (talk) 17:26, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I already did some nitpicking, but because of limitations with English, please go ahead, your help is welcome. I will be standing by to work on any improvements you recommend. Thank you very much.--Mariordo (talk) 23:42, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Splitting the article before GA
The article content is ready for nomination for WP:Good Article, only some nitpicking is pending. However, the finished article is too long (~140 K), on my request for advice, User:Johnfos agreed that the article is far too long and has suggested to split it, using a WP:SS approach: "This would make the article more readable, and better suited to the GA process I think. Initially I would split off History of ethanol fuel in Brazil, and Production of ethanol fuel in Brazil, leaving a summary where each of these sections were, and providing a link to the new article." This has to be done before the GA process, so I open the proposal, which I support, before splitting the article. Any other suggestions?--Mariordo (talk) 15:06, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * PD: Since the splitting implies separating share references, this will take some time, so if consensus is reached, I can do it but only until early 2009 (now is time for a vacation including time off from Wiki).
 * The split of the history section is done, and now found at History of ethanol fuel in Brazil.--Mariordo (talk) 03:03, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * After carefully analyzing how to split a separate article for "Production of ethanol fuel in Brazil" I concluded that the information already there is essential for the comprehensiveness of the article, as the Brazilian model has fully integrated sugarcane agricultural technology, and sugar and ethanol production, it is precisely one of its more characteristic features. Also, I think a summary of it will content a high percentage of the content to avoid losing the comprehensiveness intended, so I gave up on splitting this section.--Mariordo (talk) 00:24, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Fallacy
"(...)with a zero theoretical net contribution, however this cycle is never closed since it is not possible to utilize 100% of the crop energy content."

You don't have to utilize 100% of the crop energy content so that the carbon cycle is closed. If that was the case, the whole concept of "sustainable energy" would simply not exist!!! nihil (talk) 13:21, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As per your comment I deleted that sentence to avoid confusion or any fallacy, though that caveat is in the source provided.--Mariordo (talk) 00:31, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Too Much Propaganda
This entry on Brazilian Ethanol is uncritical. Even the negatives are presented as positives. It appears edits on this page are controlled by UNICA or the Brazilian government. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.6.59.127 (talk) 14:04, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree with your POV, however, as the main contributor to this article I kindly request that you point out the specific issues that affect the neutral point of view (WP:NPOV) of the article, so that it can be improved. Furthermore, I would like to clarify to you the following:
 * 1. The article gained Good Article status because the reviewer confirmed that reliable sources were used and the content has a neutral point of view.
 * 2. You believe the article is uncritical, however according to Wiki policies is has to be encyclopedic, this is not a blog, and it dealt with controversial issues as dictated by Wiki policy. If someone said the Amazon is being destroyed, the opposing view was presented, both with RS, as whenever possible (you can check) independent sources were used (including studies by several European governments, American authors and international organizations). So I strongly disagree with your claim that the article is controlled by UNICA or the Brazilian government, and by the way, I do not have any relationship with any of them.
 * 3. After reviewing the content and considering the unreferenced edit you did (the one I reversed), I included a properly sourced edit regarding gasoline heavy taxation, expanding from the info already existing in the comparison tables. See the price section here.
 * 4. During the last six months the Brazilian ethanol market has been in flux. Due to the financial crisis ethanol exports plunged and producers were not stocking due to lack of credit, therefore ethanol prices went way down; then sugar prices went up (today are in a record high, as India lost a significant % of its harvest due to a drought in 2009) so those sugarcane plants that produce both ethanol and sugar began producing more sugar; thereafter, ethanol supply went down due to the end of the harvest. Today ethanol prices are so high that the 30% break even point is no longer in place in most states, and many flex fuel owners have switched to run their cars on E25 gasoline only, and recently, the government decided to lower the ethanol content to 20% beginning in February to reduce demand. Now there is talk of importing corn ethanol from the US which is becoming competitive in some regions (import duty is just 20%). I have not included these latest developments yet because the article has to be encyclopedic and not a news post, so I will wait several months to use official price stats to present a summary of this situation, and also wait for the market to become more stable. Why? Because if the article reflects the prices just six months ago it would have showed a biased toward lower ethanol prices just as today it will show a biased towards high prices. Picking a point in time when the market is in flux is definitively not objective nor NPOV. We have to wait to see where it settles in the months ahead in order to avoid any bias in the article.

I will await your reaction to these explanations, and I will do any additional edits that might be required to keep NPOV, but you have to be more specific about any gaps or existing bias.Mariordo (talk) 04:05, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I have some sympathy with the "uncritical" comment above. Rather than suggest changes I have just made some, I hope they don't lose anything too important. To me this looks like a good, well-informed article and it is impeccably referenced, but it is also clearly written by enthusiasts. For example subsidising something does not make it competitive, rather it proves the reverse; and the discussion of US tarifs was far from balanced. Perhaps some more, similar pruning might be done? Servalo (talk) 10:13, 24 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi Servalo, I moved the discussion from my talk page to here as a sub-section, and sorry for the delay. I think most of your contributions were very helpful in improving the article's NPOV. Below I will discuss about the couple I disagree.Mariordo (talk)

Energy extraction efficiency
Mariordo, I can see what you mean on extraction, but I'm not sure fusion is an ideal comparison because it is taking energy from a subatomic source that is not otherwise accessible. For things that have an obvious physical-world origin such as wind power, solar power and coal burning I think it is almost universal to quote efficiencies as a percentage of available energy -- in fact when I read the original I got half way through putting in "%" signs after your numbers before realising I'd better check your source! I would suggest you put my edit back in because otherwise people like me will not understand your figures (and will probably assume they are wrong). Servalo (talk) 17:39, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Servalo, when I mentioned the cold fusion article, I was referring to this section, which explain the failure to observed excess heat based on energy balance. I agree that probably I did not pick the best example.
 * Coming back to your suggestion, I checked again and the two sources provided explicitly mention the favorable energy balance (output energy/input energy) of sugarcane ethanol, which varies from 8.3 for average conditions to 10.2 for best practice production. The Macedo et al paper explains in detail how this calculation was done. Furthermore, the definition of energy balance in physics always refers to closed systems, and it is not customary to account for the energy produced or stored in the source you are tapping (the sun in this case). You only need to consider the energy required to tap the source, whether it is hydroelectric, wind, or the sun in the case of biofuels or solar panels. For gasoline, the accounting of energy input begins with the energy spent in getting the petroleum from the soil, so you do not need to clarify how this energy came to be stored in the petroleum. For more details see Life cycle assessment, in particular the sections Well-to-wheel and Life cycle energy analysis. In summary, it is not appropriate to make explicit the energy source you are tapping when talking about an energy balance. The existing wiki link allows anyone curious enough to go to that article to understand the concept. Just imagine how Wikipedia will be if every time a scientific or technical term or units are used and you would have to explain what it means. This is precisely why wiki links to other articles are so handy for the laymen, and nevertheless in this particular case the text included the annotation: (output energy/input energy).-Mariordo (talk) 04:38, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Broken link an contradictions with other ethanol articles
The 4th reference is a broken link.

The energy balance of sugar cane ethanol varies on the article one reads. Here, it is claimed to be "7 times" that of corn ethanol, but at 1.3, sugar cane ethanol would have to be 9:1. The EROI page states that the EROI is about 5:1, about the same as shale oil. It appears that many ethanol articles use old information, a mix of sources, and do not use any particular number. The concensus for corn ethanol seems to be 1.3:1, but what about sugar cane ethanol? I generally hear 5-8:1. It seems that nearly every ethanol article needs updated to reflect more recent studies. 174.101.99.191 (talk) 13:43, 22 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I have restored the url, same website just different address. And yes, several sources/researchers have came up with different values, but all agree that sugarcane ethanol has a higher energy balance. It is not a matter of the research being dated, but the differences in the actual value arise because of the different assumptions each researcher makes, and the fuel pathways. For example, sugarcan ethanol has a certain value in Brazil, but if exported to California you have to add the carbon footprint of the ship carrying the fuel by sea to California. See here just from the same source, and one of the most reliable - CARB - the different carbon intensities, for both sugarcane and corn: http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/lu_tables_11282012.pdf. Cheers.--Mariordo (talk) 16:57, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

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Dr. Pouliot's comment on this article
Dr. Pouliot has reviewed this Wikipedia page, and provided us with the following comments to improve its quality:

"I would erase the second paragraph of the article. This is mostly subjective and the actual information provided is available later in the article.

The integration of sugar and ethanol production means that the price of sugar and the price of ethanol are tied together in Brazil."

We hope Wikipedians on this talk page can take advantage of these comments and improve the quality of the article accordingly.

Dr. Pouliot has published scholarly research which seems to be relevant to this Wikipedia article:


 * Reference : Sebastien Pouliot & Bruce A. Babcock, 2014. "Impact of Ethanol Mandates on Fuel Prices when Ethanol and Gasoline are Imperfect Substitutes," Center for Agricultural and Rural Development (CARD) Publications 14-wp551, Center for Agricultural and Rural Development (CARD) at Iowa State University.

ExpertIdeasBot (talk) 19:01, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

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External links modified
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I have just modified 23 one external links on Ethanol fuel in Brazil. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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External links modified
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I have just modified 34 external links on Ethanol fuel in Brazil. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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GAR
I don't think community reassessment in necessary. Extremely out of date, 2008 median age of sources. Half of article will probably need to be rewritten for it to be up-to-date. The long quotes are also a bit questionable in terms of copyright I believe. FemkeMilene (talk) 19:53, 10 July 2021 (UTC)