Talk:Good News International Ministries

Naming
Should the name of the article be "Good News International Ministries"? I feel that it would be better to use the proper name. Patty J H (talk) 20:24, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I am not strictly opposed to that, however the majority of media coverage is referring to them as the Malindi Cult, which seems to be the name they are going end up being most famously known as. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk &#124; Contribs) 21:11, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I also have a question about this and agree that 'Malindi cult' doesn't seem like the most appropriate title, especially since the term 'cult' is widely considered a pejorative term by experts, and is used mostly by the mass media to generate hype, but is also used by the fundamentalist 'anti-cult' sector to further their attacks on religious freedoms. I feel continuing to use such a term, regardless of its popularity, feeds religious bias against other groups (who don't resort to such extremes) but who simply live and believe differently to the mainstream. (This isn't really just my opinion but is a field of academic study in itself.)
 * The reasoning for choosing to stick with that title (Malindi cult) also seems a little circular, or like a self-fulfilling prophecy - having that title for the group on the Wiki page is what will contribute to it having that name over time.
 * I am not convinced of the following suggestion I am about to make (!) but what about "Good News International Ministries (Malindi Sect)" as the title? (Although I think "Good New International Ministries" is still reasonable.) Brown&#39;s the name (talk) 18:51, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry to post again. Another alternative name, which would be more correct in terms of dictionary, and current academic definitions, could be "Malindi Sect".
 * https://people.ucalgary.ca/~nurelweb/concise/def.html
 * https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/sect Brown&#39;s the name (talk) 18:55, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm in favour of this as a more neutral name. It would also be more consistent with the typical approach to naming cult-related articles. "Malindi Cult" should remain in the first sentence, of course. FuwaHitsuji (talk) 21:36, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi there. I'm glad you are in favour of a more neutral name. Sorry, but which one was it, more specifically, that you were in favour of? (As I mentioned three different options.) Thanks! Brown&#39;s the name (talk) 21:03, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Oops! Specifically, I'm in favour of "Good News International Ministries". Kind regards, FuwaHitsuji (talk) 00:11, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Cool! Thanks for clarifying that. Brown&#39;s the name (talk) 22:51, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we should retitle the article to the Shakohola Forest Massacre, That is how I see a number of media sources labeling the event lately. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk &#124; Contribs) 22:51, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * At best, I would think 'Shakahola Forest Massacre' could be a sub-heading within this article, but even then, it is rather sensationalist (being as it is, a media hook line). The current 'Mass Starvation Incident' sub-heading is more NPOV. As far as naming the article itself 'Shakahola Forest Massacre', the article is about more than this one particular incident, so doesn't seem appropriate. Brown&#39;s the name (talk) 19:08, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Virtually all reporting in Kenya at this time refers to the group as "Good News International Church." 2600:8802:4700:BE:64F2:B49:159C:6DD4 (talk) 19:08, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Strongly second that. If not title of the article, Good News International Church should be mentioned at least in first line of the article. If current title of the article is what they called themselves, and was on their website, it is good. But if they changed it to 'church' later, then wikip article should be named accordingly. Good News International Church is even name given in no. 1 reference at beginning of the article. BirgittaMTh (talk) 07:05, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

A second Malindi cult!?
See. The two cases seem to be very similar (involving actual or attempted mass killing of followers), and Odero’s group is also based in Malindi. However, it’s not clear if they’re actually connected or not, or if they even share the same theology.

Mackenzie and Odero might be working together, but it could also just be a freakish coincidence. A third possibility is that it’s a social contagion/copycat incident where Odero was inspired by reading about Mackenzie in the news.

Regardless, a disambiguation is certainly in order now, since Mackenzie’s group is no longer the only “Malindi cult” in the news. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:7DBA (talk) 19:06, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The current news sources say there is not direct link between these two cases. I am not sure this is worthy of inclusion here, without something more than is currently in the sources. And the second group appears to be much larger and well known, an article under their official name may be more appropriate, with a DAB at the top of the article. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk &#124; Contribs) 13:41, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Shakahola massacre
@Charles Edward Many of the local media houses are referring to the Malindi Cult as the Shakahola massacre. I'm not sure if it would be a good idea to mention it in the article or leave it. See here

I also started started an article Ezekiel Odero (The second pastor) and maybe you can have a quick look when you have time. Thank you. Kelmaa (talk) 20:36, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 9 May 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus that using the group's official name is more in keeping with WP:NPOV, as well as being WP:CONSISTENT with how articles on cults are typically titled. It was also noted that the existing title, "Malindi cult", is an uncommon name for the group. Concerns were raised about the WP:RECOGNIZABILITY of the name "Good News International Ministries", but most participants do not seem to have been convinced by that argument. (non-admin closure) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 18:20, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Malindi cult → Good News International Ministries – Use of the term 'cult' is considered pejorative in the scientific study of new religious movements, and is a term rejected by the foremost academics and sociologists. It is a term that is mostly used to fuel religious prejudice, or to generate media hype, rather than develop the use of critical thinking skills when discussing controversial, or even non-controversial actions by persons in a religious minority. With those who discussed the issue on the talk page, we were in agreement with this new title name. Brown&#39;s the name (talk) 18:19, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Support. While common name is important, I am disinclined to identify press usage with it.  Newspapers are not necessarily NPOV, and term "cult" has pejorative overtones.  The proposed title seems more NPOV, and given it is involved in ongoing controversy, extra care is warranted to ensure neutrality. Walrasiad (talk) 23:43, 9 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose - In some cases the term cult is definitely applied to loosely, but this is not one of those cases. There's a clear line between a new religious movement and a group who were encouraged to starve themselves to "meet Jesus", with over 100 found dead and well over 500 missing. There's no controversy that Jonestown was a cult, and this is relatively similar. Estar8806 (talk) 00:51, 10 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Support - Regardless of whether cult is an applicable term, Good News International Ministries feels more formal and NPOV to me, and is consistent with how we handle the majority of similar religious groups[1]. Fuwa (she/her)  ✉️ 06:16, 10 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose. "Good News International Ministries" is too generic to be recognizable. Srnec (talk) 20:47, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you have any alternative suggestions? What about 'Good News International Ministries (Malindi Cult)'? (However, the term 'Malindi Cult' is almost irrelevant since it is not referred to in most news articles about the issue.) Brown&#39;s the name (talk) 00:00, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Some newspaper reports have referred to this incident as the Shockahola Forest Massacre. Perhaps the article could be retitled after the event. I'm neutral on changing the name personally. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk &#124; Contribs) 14:52, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks Charles for your comment as I was hoping to hear from you on this issue, since you originated this article. Nevertheless, how I see it (and maybe Wiki policy is different?) but the article is about the group, not just about one incident that the group was involved with, making 'Shakahola Forest Massacre' an incorrect (and sensationalist) name in that sense. Wouldn't it be possible set up an automatic redirect to 'Good News International Ministries' should someone do a search for 'Malindi cult'? Brown&#39;s the name (talk) 17:48, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment It appears that Good News International Ministries, Shakahola cult & Shakahola massacre are common names for the cult (& reliable sources are calling this a cult) or the event. I think whichever 1 of them is most commonly used should be the title. Malindi cult is definitely not the common name. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 08:32, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Support Based on the above reasoning and precedence set by similar cult related articles. If enough sources are available, the April 2023 incident could be made its own article, as could the leader of the group. But for now, I think it makes the most sense to use Good News International Ministries. Apathyash (talk) 21:45, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.