Talk:Hamza Kashgari

private opinion needs to be from notable person or group; apostasy lead

 * Removed from article: http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-community-activities-groups-I-am-a-Muslim-and-I-condemn-the-charges-against-Hamza-Kashgari-W0QQAdIdZ354346527.

Pikir merdeka (talk) 07:36, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The lead of Apostasy in Islam with references could be useful here as background.

Talk:Muhammad/FAQ
There have been several edits related to Talk:Muhammad/FAQ.

A quote from the above list of frequently asked questions (FAQ) is:

Please click on Talk:Muhammad/FAQ and follow the links to understand the discussions and reasoning behind this, and alternatives for people unhappy with this. The Hamza Kashgari article is not the place to disagree with this recommendation. If you disagree with the present consensus, then a good place to discuss that would be Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles. Boud (talk) 23:45, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Kashgari and Kashgar
I have no idea whether the various claims about Kashgari's ancestry are based on actual knowledge (published genealogy, e.g. according to the KSA style of naming someone by his/her male ancestry bin X bin Y bin Z) or by guessing from his family name. In any case, Gulf News clearly makes the claim that his "family originates from Turkmenistan".

Given that this is a biographical article and that racist comments were made against Kashgari for not being a "pure" enough Saudi (same Gulf News source), we need to have serious enough sources if we're going to say that part of his ancestry is "non-Saudi", or if we make a claim that is more than a quote. i've removed http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?D=2012-02-13&ID=339018 which is no longer available without registration and whose URL and page setup suggest that the website is a forum for wikt:rants. If someone can find a source at least as mainstream ("reliable") as Gulf News that says his ancestry is from Xinjiang, and preferably gives a time scale - father+mother? grandparent? ancestor 10 generations back? - then that would be useful to add in WP:NPOV style. IMHO this topic needs sources that explain their own information sources. My personal guess (OR) is that these are just speculations/rumours based on Kashgari's name.

The ancestors of François Hollande, a man with a good chance of becoming the President of France in a few months' time, might well be from Holland or another part of the Netherlands, but the present state of the fr and en versions of his Wikipedia articles do not mention whether or not any of Hollande's ancestors were from Holland.

See WP:Biographies of living persons for general recommendations. Boud (talk) 20:26, 26 February 2012 (UTC)


 * If you are "close" to Kashgari (family or friend) then the box at the top of this talk page points to an interesting help page: Biographies of living persons/Help. Boud (talk) 20:29, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

deportation/injunction chronology
The following is a "sanity check" on the deportation/injunction chronology:


 * Riyadh time zone: UTC+4
 * KL time zone: UTC+8
 * official departure time KL: 10:00 KL time 12 Feb = 02:00 UTC 12 Feb
 * i think the source said this was the time of being in a plane, not the actual departure - but if the plane had not departed yet, then its departure should (i presume) have been delayed to satisfy the injunction
 * a direct flight from KUL to RUH via Saudi Arabian Airlines takes about 8 hours, giving 18:00 KUL time 12 Feb = 10:00 UTC 12 Feb = 14:00 KSA time 12 Feb
 * but the official arrival time in Riyadh is the "night" (KSA time) of 12 Feb
 * A reasonable meaning of "night of 12 Feb" could be 18:00 to 24:00 KSA 12 Feb (or maybe very early 13 Feb)
 * = 14:00 to 20:00 UTC 12 Feb
 * = 12 to 18 hours' flight time instead of 8 hours' flight time

The various sources seem to say that it was Saudi officials who picked up Kashgari from Malaysian officials at one of the KL airports and flew him away in a "Saudi jet". A flight that takes a longer route, with an intermediate stopover - e.g. in New Delhi or Mumbai - would have been risky, since lawyers in the stopover country could have tried to stop the jet taking off again.

So what seems to be the official claim that Kashgari was deported from KL prior to the injunction is dubious, if the "deported just hours before the injunction" and "arrived in Riyadh on the night of 12 Feb" and "flew by a Saudi jet" claims are to be taken seriously.

This is not a problem for the article, as long the official Malaysian authorities' POV is sourced and attributed as their POV and alternative POVs (Lawyers for Liberty) are included.

Boud (talk) 22:35, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

youtube video of nasser al-omar
This article says that "The YouTube video clip of al-Omar demand was watched over 650,000 times in the first three days.", this seems to be incorrect if it refers to the number of youtube views the clip has received. Even now the number of views is lower than 200,000.

I can't read the citation because it's in arabic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Homurssui (talk • contribs) 23:06, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Ethnic
Is he uygur?--Kaiyr (talk) 16:21, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Recent News? (as of 4/10/2012)
The article needs to give more info on the subject's continued imprisonment in Saudi Arabia, rumors of his immanent release, the ongoing legal and political repercussions in Malaysia, and, now, news of the arrest of a "friend" named Abdullah Sulieman. I will try to come back and work on this later, but in the meantime here are a two sources that I think look relevant:
 * http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303812904577297112495254598.html
 * http://arabnews.com/opinion/columns/article608903.ece

--Durruti36 (talk) 17:12, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Carlos Latuff picture
Does anyone else think the illustration used for this article, a cartoon by Carlos Latuff, does not exactly comply with NPOV? It's clearly drawn in a way to make the reader sympathise with Kashgari, and putting at the top of the article is going to bias readers' perceptions from the start. Now, I personally agree with the sentiments of the cartoon, but Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral, and I don't think we should be using such an image as the main one in an article. (Or, if we do, perhaps we should balance it with a cartoon supporting his prosecution...) Robofish (talk) 21:48, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not so sure about "clearly drawn in a way to make the reader sympathise with Kashgari". If you are opposed to blasphemy and believe that people should be imprisoned (or worse) for blashpemy, then seeing Kashgari in prison will seem morally justified. I don't see why it should evoke empathy for someone seeing blasphemy as a criminal offence. In fact, compared to an actual photo of Saudis in prison, Latuff's picture seems to show Kashgari in a cell with a lot more space for himself than he probably has in reality, so if interpreted literally, it could evoke anger at the prison authorities for being too lenient with Kashgari. Kashgari is in a Saudi prison, we don't have RS saying that he has been tortured, so a picture of him in a Saudi prison (the swords and palm tree representing the KSA state), without any signs of torture, seems to be consistent with the RS, i.e. NPOV, to me. Boud (talk) 08:34, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd support the cartoon staying, as the reaction to his arrest is such a large part of his story. I'd also observe that NPOV does not necessarily require us to give equal weight to both sides in dispute. Reading through the article again, his detention appears to be widely condemned by the international community; this appears to be the majority view here. All that said, if we can get a fair-use image of him for the infobox, obviously that would be a more helpful image. The cartoon could then be moved down to the "Reactions" section. Khazar2 (talk) 10:42, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

To use God as translation from Allah is no neutral point of view
We must to be respectful from particular differentiation from words: God a more general term and Allah, as a personal name for their God according to islamic views. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahometan (talk • contribs) 18:06, 21 September 2012 (UTC)