Talk:Idlewild and Soak Zone

Peer review

 * A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for October 2008.

This peer review discussion has been closed. Just looking for feedback on how to improve this article. It's a bit rough, as it's hard to find reliable sources, but I've done my best to use the history section of the park's website here, as well as some other sections I've tried to elaborate on. Thanks,  Grsz  X  03:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Finetooth comments: This is a good start, and I see possibilities for improvement. Here are a few suggestions:


 * The lead should summarize the main text. The existing lead seems to be an introductory paragraph rather than a summary. Ideally, the lead would include at least a mention of the main points in each of the main text sections, and it would not include information not developed in the main text. Please see WP:LEAD.
 * Let me know if it needs more done.  Grsz  X  01:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The article could be improved through the use of images.
 * I agree. I'm not very well-versed in the free use policy, so I'll have to recruit help.  Grsz  X  20:32, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If you have a digital camera, or if you have a friend with one, you could make your own images and upload them. It takes a while to learn how to upload and license them correctly, but it's a lot of fun and very useful once you get the hang of it. Please see WP:UPIMAGE if this sounds interesting.


 * More research, which would uncover a greater variety of sources, would no doubt help. The amusement park's press releases and web site are OK as starting places, but they can be expected to be self-serving. They are therefore weak sources for satisfying WP:V. A quick Google search on the park's name produced this hit: Amusement Parks of Pennsylvania, which has a chapter on Idlewild and Soak Zone. You might have to visit a library or bookstore to gain access to the whole chapter since the on-line version includes protected (blank) pages. Newspapers and magazines are other possible sources.
 * I think I sufficiently expanded the history section.  Grsz  X  01:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The lists of rides offer opportunities for expansion. You might think about writing a paragraph about each of the most interesting or unusual rides instead of just listing them. I'm not sure it's useful simply to list each of the water slides, for example. Unless they are explained, names like Hydro Racers and Little Squirts are hard to differentiate.
 * Expanded into prose that explains additions/history that isn't covered in the actual History section.  Grsz  X  01:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Direct quotes need a citation. The first sentence of the "History" section should have a reference immediately after the end of the quoted material. Please see WP:IMAGE.
 * Done.  Grsz  X  01:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The first sentence of the "History" section mentions William Darlington but doesn't say who he was or how he had the power to grant anything to Thomas Mellon. It would be good to tell the readers who Darlington was. In this same opening section, you mention Pittsburgh. Most people won't know how far Ligonier is from Pittsburgh. You might add this information and also tell us where the railroad went. Perhaps it was a short line from Ligonier to Pittsburgh?
 * Done.  Grsz  X  01:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It would be good to have a copyeditor review the article. I see small errors such as the two in this phrase: " ...it's removal had little lasting effect. Under the MacDonald's... " You mean "its removal" and the "MacDonalds".
 * Went back through while I was expanding, but I'm sure there are still some issues. Will look again.  Grsz  X  01:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I hope you find these few suggestions helpful. If you have questions, please ask. I'll keep a watch on this review page. Finetooth (talk) 04:59, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Further Finetooth comments: Congratulations. You've made remarkable improvements to the article in a short time. You asked for additional comments, and I have three more suggestions.
 * The lead is too short and does not adequately summarize the whole of the main text. I would aim for about three paragraphs that include more about the history, the various owners, and the specific rides and entertainments. I would certainly mention Mr. Rogers. In addition, instead of saying that the park is "regarded as one of the best family amusement parks in the world", which is a judgment not directly supported by a source, I would stick to naming the awards. This serves the same purpose without violating POV.
 * I expanded a bit, let me know what you think now. ''' Grsz
 * Yes, that's better. Since one-sentence paragraphs are usually frowned upon, I merged the third paragraph with the first. I think that works OK. Finetooth (talk) 22:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 X ''' 19:23, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The POV thought leads to my second suggestion. In the Parques Reunidos section, you say, "all of the company's parks would maintain their family-first attitude... " It's not clear what a "family-first attitude" means, and it sounds to me like public-relations language or advertising language produced by the owners. I mention this primarily because it has crept into the lead in the sentence, "Originally a family-run park, Idlewild maintains a family environment and is regarded as one of the best family amusement parks in the world." The thumping on "family" three times in this sentence gives off a whiff of POV that you don't need. The basic facts about the park make it clear that it is meant to attract families with children.
 * I think I fixed this how you suggested.  Grsz  X  19:23, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks OK now. Finetooth (talk) 22:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I did some copyediting as I went through the revised article, but I ran into a sentence I couldn't fix. It is "The Wild Mouse was built by Vekoma and previously operated at Weiner Prater in Vienna and Alton Towers in Staffordshire, England, since 1985." I couldn't tell if that meant that Vekoma built the Wild Mouse in 1985 in Vienna or that the Wild Mouse operated in Vienna for a while and then at Alton Towers or exactly what. As I write this, I'm thinking that there must be more than one Wild Mouse. Maybe "since 1985" means that the Wild Mice in Vienna and Staffordshire are still up and running. Anyway, this sentence needs clarification.
 * I tried to clarify, let me know if you get what I mean now.  Grsz  X  19:23, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Almost. I removed the "since" date because it still was not clear what it referred to. The sentence now makes sense to me, but if the removed date is important, you might need to re-insert it somewhere. Finetooth (talk) 22:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I hope these additional comments are helpful. Again, I'm impressed by how much you've improved the article already. Finetooth (talk) 18:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Second peer review
At the request of User:Grsz11, I'm posting my second peer review here. This enjoyable article appears to be comprehensive and generally well-supported. To give it a chance to make FA, it will almost certainly need more images. It would be possible for someone with a digital camera to go to the park and capture a set of varied images. In addition, I have some concerns about the prose. Most of my comments below address the prose issues.

Lead
 * "near Ligonier, Pennsylvania, along US Route 30" - Suggestion: "near Ligonier, Pennsylvania, about 50 mi east of Pittsburgh along U.S. Route 30". Most readers will know where Pittsburgh is but not Ligonier.


 * "The park was later purchased by Kennywood Entertainment Company that oversaw additional expansion from 1983, including an attraction designed and voiced by Fred Rogers based on his television show Mister Rogers' Neighborhood." - This would be better in active voice. Something like this might work: "In 1983, Kennywood Entertainment Company bought and expanded the park. Fred Rogers designed and voiced one of the park's new features, based on his television show, ''Mister Rogers' Neighborhood".

Ligonier Valley Railroad
 * When the Pennsylvania Railroad declined financial responsibility for the Ligonier-Latrobe line, Judge Thomas Mellon was approached and signed a contract in August 1877. - It would be good to say who approached him and render this in active voice.


 * "the right and privilege to occupy his land for picnic purposes or pleasure grounds." - Each direct quote must have a citation immediately after the terminal punctuation, which usually comes after the quotation marks. Even if citation 2 is meant to cover both quotes in this paragraph, each quote must have a citation. You can use the "ref = name" device if they are the same.


 * "The first structure built was a depot" - Suggestion: wikilink depot.


 * "still stands in the center of the park today" - "Today" is generally deprecated because it is ambiguous and always changing. Perhaps "was still standing in the center of the park as of 2009" would solve the problem.
 * "With easy access to the site, the park attracted visitors from 50 miles (80 km) away in Pittsburgh and the surrounding areas for a weekend in the country. - This is a bit awkward. Perhaps "Easily accessible, the park attracted visitors from as far away as Pittsburgh, 50 miles (80 km) to the west, for a weekend in the country."
 * "many of the structures still exist" - Suggestion: "many of the structures still remained as of 2009".
 * "(the only one remaining)" - Perhaps "(the only one remaining after 1972)".
 * "three-row Philadelphia Toboggan Company carousel" - Unlink "carousel" since it's already linked in this section.
 * "World War II required the park to close" - "Required" suggests something legal. Was it closed by law? Low attendance? Loss of staff to the war effort? It would be good to be specific if you know what the reason was.

Macdonald family
 * "The games, held annually in early September after the park had closed for the summer, became one of the largest and highest-regarded Scottish athletic and cultural competitions in the country." - Since this is an extraordinary claim, it needs a citation right after its end punctuation.

Kennywood era
 * "adding Mister Rogers Neighborhood of Make-Believe trolley ride" - This phrase has three problems. MoS advises against bumping several wikilinked words or phrases against one another because the reader can't tell one from the next. "Trolley" is linked to a disambiguation page. The name of the show is Mister Rogers' Neighborhood. Suggested solution: "a trolley ride based on Mister Rogers' Neighborhood, a popular children's television show. You can look at this in edit mode to see how I did the links.
 * Suggestion: Wikilink "lumberjack".

Location
 * "Realizing his mistake, Washington ran among both groups, shouting and raising rifles into the air." - It's not clear from this whether Washington was shouting and raising rifles or whether you mean the groups of soldiers were shouting and raising rifles. Maybe "ran between the two groups of soldiers, who were shouting and waving their rifles".
 * "Though the location had never been entirely verified, Images of America: Idlewild from Arcadia Publishing acknowledges the opinion that the event took place in a section of Idlewild that was previously a wooded area known as the Woodlands." - Suggestion: "has never been verified" rather than "had". Second suggestion: "Arcadia Publishing notes" rather than "acknowledges". You might add where this opinion comes from. Also, shouldn't this be "Jeffrey S. Croushore" rather than Arcadia Publishing who is acknowledging or noting?

Recognition
 * "Idlewild was recognized by the National Amusement Park Historical Association as the fourth best park for families in 2007, second in 2006, and fourth in 2005." - The article includes quite a few passive voice sentences. Active voice is generally stronger. When either form will work, consider using active. Suggestion: "The National Amusement Park Historical Association recognized Idlewild... ".

Attractions
 * "The Rollo Coaster has been named a "Classic Coaster" by American Coaster Enthusiasts". - Here's another passive that's easy to flip. - Suggestion: "American Coaster Enthusiasts named the Rollo Coaster a "Classic Coaster".

If you find these suggestions helpful, please consider reviewing another article at WP:PR. Finetooth (talk) 18:23, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Related information
I propose to restore the change reverted here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Idlewild_and_Soak_Zone&diff=277737176&oldid=277735684

The "Related information" heading was added to separate the navboxes from the "External links" section and to provide the readers with a quick way to reach the navboxes from the table of contents. The reverting editor does not say the "Related information" heading is unhelpful but, rather, that it is "not standard." Unless there is a rule out there that articles must conform to a particular standard then this does not seem to be a valid rationale to me. Is there such a rule? If not, does anyone have a better reason the "Related information" heading should not be restored? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 22:21, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

picayune nitpick
(( Case closed. --Mike Schwartz (talk) 21:12, 30 March 2009 (UTC) ))

In the section "Parques Reunidos 2008-", the penultimate (next-to-last) sentence says, << "However, on December 11, 2007, Kennywood Entertainment that it would sell its parks to the Madrid-based amusement company, Parques Reunidos.[15]" >>.

I think this sentence is missing something. I think it needs a verb, (such as "announced"), just before the words "that it would sell". Is there some "default" verb that is implied? Or is this missing verb due to some recent "accidental" mishap of editing? Perhaps some vandalism that has so far remained undetected? --Mike Schwartz (talk) 04:36, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I went back and investigated. The word "announced" is exactly what used to be present in this article, and the exact edit where it was removed, was in the "Revision as of 21:27, 8 March 2009".  The sentence was being moved from one part of the article to another, but the word "announced" should not have been deleted, and it was deleted.  I intend to restore the word "announced".  I am not even going to wait for replies, here on the "Talk" page.  If you have any disagreement, you may be faced with a decision to revert.  This strikes me as a blatant case of, a change having been made, (at the above mentioned date / time!) that was NOT intentional on the part of anyone.  If you have any comments, bring 'em on.  --Mike Schwartz (talk) 04:41, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Just seems like a grammatical error. Is it really as big of a deal as you're making it to be?  Grsz 11  21:19, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Organization
Looking through the article I see some fairly significant organizational issues, which I am surprised were not flagged in the process of getting this to FA.


 * It seems highly questionable for Rollo Coaster to have its own article unless there is a whole lot more to add. Merging wouldn't seem to be a problem.
 * I don't see what that has to do with the featured status of this article.  Grsz 11  15:28, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 1b might be applicable. If something should be merged, then it could be argued that the article is not yet comprehensive. PSWG1920 (talk) 16:04, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * From Kennywood era: "The 1990s brought the addition of the Wild Mouse to the Olde Idlewild area." This is currently the first mention of the Olde Idlewild area in the article, yet it's written as though that has already been introduced. The Olde Idlewild area has a subsection later in the article, in "Attractions".


 * Beyond this, there just seems to be a lot of repetition between the History and Attractions section. What brought this to my attention was the mention of the Mister Rogers trolley ride. From Kennywood era: "In 1989, the park expanded across the Loyalhanna Creek by adding a trolley ride based on Mister Rogers' Neighborhood, a popular children's television show. The ride was designed and voiced by children's entertainer Fred Rogers, a native of Latrobe." From Other attractions: "Also in Raccoon Lagoon is Mister Rogers' Neighborhood of Make-Believe. Built in 1989, the trolley ride was designed specifically for Idlewild by local native Fred Rogers and is based on his popular children's television show." I can see how this happened; "History" and "Attractions" are very much interconnected here. Perhaps Attractions should come first? PSWG1920 (talk) 03:52, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm going to refrain from changing the format for now, not that its really a big deal to do so, until others can comment. It didn't come up on the FAC from any of the reviewers, and therefore I'm not really sure how big of a deal it is.  Grsz 11  15:27, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Since the FAR didn't open, I'll comment further. The History section covers a broad, overall history of the park, touching on major points and details (additions of the two roller coasters, Mister Rogers, a waterpark, etc.). Attractions addresses specific attraction history. The attractions mentioned above will be mentioned again in order to be thorough, but is a sentence repeated really that big of a deal?  Grsz  11  15:36, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I was using that as an example. I'm thinking now that Attractions should come first, then "General History", with at least some of the repetition removed from the latter. PSWG1920 (talk) 16:18, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The History is an overall view, that addresses many specific details. Most of the Attractions section won't make sense unless the reader has already read the History.  Grsz 11  14:01, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * My thinking is that any detail needed for the Attractions section to make sense should be moved to said section. Many readers will not read the whole article anyway, and Attractions is likely to be the aspect which draws the most interest. PSWG1920 (talk) 18:12, 7 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Regarding the merge proposal for Rollo Coaster, I am opposed. ACE Classic Coasters are notable enough for their own articles and that article is an acceptable stub. ++Lar: t/c 19:22, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 19:29, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080911092118/http://www.kennywood.com/docs/12.11.07KECNewChapterRelease.pdf to http://www.kennywood.com/docs/12.11.07KECNewChapterRelease.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101206160409/http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/westmoreland/s_711842.html to http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/westmoreland/s_711842.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080925050653/http://www.idlewild.com/in_the_park/ to http://idlewild.com/in_the_park/
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110928182648/http://www.idlewild.com/site/documents/IPReleaseNAPHA.pdf to http://www.idlewild.com/site/documents/IPReleaseNAPHA.pdf

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Citations needed
I just found two unsourced statements in this article and tagged them as such. Normally, I would not do this to a featured article, but I actually spent about 15 minutes searching for sources for these statements. Unfortunately, the only sources I could find for these claims are blogs and forum posts, which are not generally appropriate as sources for a good article, let alone a featured article. The two statements I tagged are:
 * Before the 2013 season, Idlewild removed its 1947 Caterpillar ride[19] and closed the Dizzy Lizzy's Saloon Haunted Swing attraction, which is currently standing but not operating.[citation needed]
 * Following the 2017 season, Idlewild removed its 1938 Whip attraction, which had been closed for at least the entire 2017 season due to flood damage. The ride's cars can be seen sitting in the overflow parking lot west of the park.[citation needed]

Hopefully, this article's primary editors have better luck finding sources for these statements. – Epicgenius (talk) 17:37, 26 September 2022 (UTC)