Talk:List of Ottoman grand viziers

Rustem
Fernando Navagero wrote in his report in 1553: ''Sono al presente li quatoro pascià primo il magnifico Rustan, genero de sua maestà di nazione serviano d'un casale appresso il serraglo di Bosna".'' in Relazione, serie III, vol. I, pages 88-89. --PaxEquilibrium 21:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * In English, please. --CG 22:56, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Assessment
Where are the citations? I didn't see a single cited source or reference in the entire thing. if you're going to take the time to write such a huge list, you should probably source your list. Cam 18:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC) User:Climie.ca

Improvement needed
--Nostradamus1 (talk) 01:45, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Very few of the Grand Vezirs were of Turkish background. The list makes unreferenced claims.
 * 2) The list is more like a chronology. Same names are listed multiple times. A unique list would be more readable.
 * 3) The name of the sultan(s) under whom the vezirs served woyld also make the list better.
 * 4) Terms such as "Greek Ottoman" or "Albanian Ottoman" are rather artificial, perhaps, to make it sound something like Italian American. It never existed. It's absurd and the word Ottoman should be removed.
 * 5) "Bosniak"? It is very dubious to list so many vezirs as "Bosniaks". First, this term did not exist at the time. Second, Bosniaks are Muslims. The pashas coming from the child-levy (devshirme) system could not have been Bosniaks since only Christians were recruited. There were Christian Serbs and Croatians living in Bosnia. So the term Bosniak is simply misleading and be taken out.


 * A contribution to fifth remark: Originally most of Bosnians were Bogomils, adherents of a Christian sect while Serbs were Ortodox and Croats Catholic. So Bosnians were also included in devshirme system. But than, most of Bosnians embraced Islam while Serbs kept their faith. This difference between the attitudes may be someway connected to sect difference. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 07:59, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Bogumils were completely extermianted in Bosnia until 1350's, much before Ottoman Empire conquered territory of medieval Bosnia so saying that Ottomans were recruiting Bogumils is stupidity. Bosniaks didn't existed until 1993. so they should be removed from text. Malkochoglu veziers are here claimed to be ,,Bosniaks'' even if they never probably haven't visited Bosnia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.216.56.3 (talk) 20:09, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Invisier
At the risk of making a remarkably stupid remark, where's the list? I'm not seeing one... TREKphiler  hit me ♠  03:44, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Semiz pashas
I edited two names after some research. In the original list Semiz Ali Pasha appeared twice; 1561-1565 and 1579-1580. But according to sources he died in 1565. So it was clear that there was an error. Actually Semiz Ali Pasha served only one term. The grandvizier of the second term (1578-1580) is Semiz Ahmet Pasha. Their epithet semiz is common. Probably that's why the names are confused. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 07:16, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Köprülü Mustafa
How come some members of Köprülü family are of Turco Albanian descent and Fazıl Mustafa Pasha is of Turkish descent ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 16:20, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Confusion of names?
According to the list in tr-Wiki Zağanos Pasha was not a grand vizier. The article Zağanos Pasha in this wiki also doesn't mention any thing of that kind. Is Mehmet Zağanos Pasha a different person ? I don't think it is possible for two Zağanos Pashas being the father in law of the sultan at the same time? I think that name in the list should be checked once more. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:48, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Ishak Pasha
Ishak Pasha was a Greek. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.243.105.243 (talk) 18:55, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

1650-1651
In this list there is one edition, made on 16 June 2005 and left untouched since then, seems faulty. According to list According to my references Murat Pasha's term ended in 5 August 1650, not 1651. Any objection ? Anyway, I'll call the editor. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:53, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

After 1515
According to sources Dukakinzade Ahmed Pasha was executed on 8 September 1515 and the post was vacant for some time. (Yaşar Yücel-Ali Sevim). Further more, Hersekli Ahmet Pasha (5th term) succeds a brief Hadim Sinan Pasha period. (Ayhan Buz: Osmanlı Sadrazamları) In this list however Hersekli Ahmet Pasha immediatelly succeeds Dukakinzade. Any explanations ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 11:23, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Rustem - pasha Hrvat
In the 16th century a traveler and writer Marco A. Pigaffetta wrote that almost everybody on the Turkish court in Constantinople knows the Croatian language, and especially soldiers. Marco Pigafetta in his "Itinerario'' published in London in 1585 states: "In Istanbul it is customary to speak Croatian, a language which is understood by almost all official Turks, especially military men."

This can also be confirmed by the 1553 visit of Antun Vrancic, Roman cardinal, and Franjo Zay, a diplomat, to Istanbul as envoys of the Croat - Hungarian king to discuss a peace treaty with the Turks. During the initial ceremonial greetings they had with Rustem - pasha Hrvat (= Croat) the conversation led in Turkish with an official interpreter was suddenly interrupted. Rustem - pasha Hrvat asked in Croatian if Zay and Vrancic spoke Croatian language. The interpreter was then dismissed and they proceeded in the Croatian language during the entire process of negotiations.

Igitur quum inter loquendum Verancius loqueretur ad interpretem, quod passae responderi debebat, conversus passa ad Zay: Tu, inquit, scisne Croatice? Scieo, respondit. Eti is collega tuus? Respondit: Ipse quoque... Sed et Verancius itidem, quum eum Croatice ob quaedam severius dicta lenire vellet, dixit.. (Verancius, 66-67). --Zrin22 (talk) 11:00, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Mehmed-pasha Sokolovic
"Suleiman the Magnificent - Sultan of the East" by Harold Lamb, it is clearly stated on pages 53, 117, 303, 311...that Sokollu Mehmet Paşa was Croat (ISBN=978-1-40677-271-5)

Also in "Lieber, Francis (1845). Encyclopædia Americana: A popular dictionary of arts, sciences,... Vol 13. Philadelphia: Columbia University Library." on page 345, Sokollu Mehmet Paşa is called renegade of Croatia.

Mehmed-pasha Sokolovic (ca. 1510 – 79), born in eastern Bosnia near Visegrad, after having completed his higher education with outstanding honours, was asked by Suleiman II where he came from and he replied "from Croatia." (73)

It does not matter that he cames from an orthodox family. In that time many Croats in the region of Bosnia was Orthodox Christians since the Ottoman Empire started its invasion. --Zrin22 (talk) 11:29, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Bosnian origin. Problems with identification - misinterpretations
Some users are misinterpreting/synthesizing sources which claim an individual as Bosnian or of Bosnian origin (i.e. from Bosnia Eyalet) into the modern ethnic group Bosniak - despite the fact that these individuals have had Christian origin. The Turkish term Boşnak does not mean Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim) in the sense of ethnic origin, rather being a geographical term. Also, users need to understand the difference between Bosnia Eyalet, Bosnia (region) and Herzegovina.--Z oupan 00:38, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

The article on the modern ethnic group points that the name "Bosniak" was not limited to the Muslims until the 1990s, when it was used to disambiguate them from the rest of the population in Bosnia. Bosnian has a wider meaning and should be the name used here. Dimadick (talk) 07:56, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Bosnian is the term which should be used ! If we consider that this is English Wikipedia, then we should use English, or western, notion of national identity and nationality. Especially when dealing with national background which stretch back to middle ages. In that regard Serbs and Croats, actually, never inhabited medieval Bosnia, only Bosnians. Nobody can prove that there was Serbs living in Bosnia prior to Ottoman conquest, simply it's an impossible task - no respectable historian, westerner or from Balkans, ever claimed such thing - from Fine, Marian Wenzel, Robert Donia, Noel Malcolm, etc. to Tibor Živković, Relja Novaković, Nada Klaić, even Sima Ćirković !--Santasa99 (talk) 15:42, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * "In that regard Serbs and Croats, actually, never inhabited medieval Bosnia, only Bosnians. Nobody can prove that there was Serbs living in Bosnia prior to Ottoman conquest, simply it's an impossible task - no respectable historian, westerner or from Balkans, ever claimed such thing"
 * Are you for real??? You straight up publicly lied and you think that's ok? The truth is that there actually was no Bosniak/Bosnian nation or people in the medieval Bosnia. At that time, Bosnia was solely inhabited by Serbs and Croats. I vote to change all references to "Bosniaks" in this list and switch it so "Serb" Sergivs (talk) 09:50, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * No, no switching whatsoever. Leave Bosnian.--Z oupan 14:15, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Why would I be joking?
When I enter into Google books to perform the search "Ottoman Prime Minister -wiki" I get a result of about 127,000 entries. When I do it for "Ottoman Grand Vizier -wiki" I get a result of about 94,800 entries. Why would I be joking? The user who is insistent on "Grand Vizier" has made the same search? Maybe that also shows the difference of attitude in using the sources on the Ottoman Empire: a preference of those looking at the Ottoman State as a backward identity (or "entity" if you prefer) against those sources who have not fallen into "orientalism" -or have no special agenda with the country- and has looked at its head of the executive simply as what it is universally, a "Prime Minister", independently of names used by themselves or others. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 10:18, 29 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I am sorry, but the search you made is superficial and not correct. Let us take the first ten results of your "Ottoman Prime Minister -wiki" search: #2 refers to the Prime Minister's Archives of the modern Turkish state, not the Ottoman Empire; #3 is unclear whether it refers to the Ottoman or Turkish states as I cannot access it; #7 is on "Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan"; #8 and #9 are on "Prime Minister Taj al-Din al-Hasani" of the Kingdom of Syria; #10 is about British Prime Minister Asquith. The same pattern is more or less repeated in the next search pages. Whereas the "Grand Vizier" always refers to the head of the Ottoman government. In short, while the term "Prime Minister" is used in connection with the Ottoman head of government in the constitutional era, it is not clearly the most common term, and, more importantly, is patently wrong for any use prior to that era. There is no source that calls Çandarlı Halil Pasha or the Köprülüs "Prime Ministers". It has nothing to do with orientalism, and everything to do with usage in both scholarly and popular sources, including standard reference works like the Encyclopedia of Islam, The Cambridge History of Turkey, or Inalcik's An Economic and Social History of the Ottoman Empire. I note that the Turkish Wikipedia page likewise uses the Ottoman term sadrazam, which is habitually rendered as "Grand Vizier", not başbakan or anything similar. Constantine   ✍  10:39, 29 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I noted French language Servet-i Funun uses "grand vizier" https://archives.saltresearch.org/bitstream/123456789/129372/704/PFSIF9180919A099.jpg and this was during WWI. I'm OK with grand vizier being used in this way. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:45, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Missing Hoca Sinan Pasha son of Hızır Bey a Turk, part of the Ulama
He was Grand Vizier from 1476 to 1477 Alexis Ivanov (talk) 02:01, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose that List of Albanian Grand Viziers be merged into List of Ottoman Grand Viziers. The "List of Albanian Grand Viziers" was created recently as an identical copy of a number of entries from "List of Ottoman Grand Viziers" with an identical introduction. As far as I have been able to ascertain, there is no content in the Albanian list that is not already in the general list, so a plain deletion of the former will probably be the solution, but just in case there should be any non-overlapping content, I formally propose it as a merger. This is obviously a WP:REDUNDANTFORK. The creator and main contributor of the article is indeffed, as is his sock, but I will alert the two other users that have edited the page. --T*U (talk) 18:09, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:MERGEREASON. Precisely, overlap and context argument.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:25, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Support Alexis Ivanov (talk) 19:19, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Support. Obvious fork.--Z oupan 04:04, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It was rather obvious. I will proceed to complete the merger. --T*U (talk) 06:36, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Good Alexis Ivanov (talk) 07:04, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
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293. Joshua Chandler ?
Who is Joshua Chandler, who supposedly became grand vizer in 2015. Is this a joke? J. J. in PA — Preceding unsigned comment added by J. J. in PA (talk • contribs) 23:35, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Row numbers
Please verify the row numbers, at least from year 1586: 50. Kanijeli Siyavuş Pasha (2nd time), then again 49. Koca Sinan Pasha (2nd time), 50. Serdar Ferhad Pasha (1st time), etc. Akela (talk) 09:06, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I noticed that too, I am willing to fix that. But it's strange that some viziers have more than one number next to their names, why was that added? N.Hoxha (talk) 21:51, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Bosniak identity of some Ottoman Grand Viziers
The Bosniak identity emerged in the second half of the 20th century on the basis of the Islamic religion of some Bosnians. Per Athanasiadis, Athanasios: ''Political changes in Yugoslavia in the 1990s triggered a series of changes in the ethnoreligious field. The ethnological problems faced by the residents of Bosnia formed part of more general ethnological reshuffling in former Yugoslavia, promoting idealized nations, non-existent ethnic ideologies and fabricated state designs. However, these nations already constitute part of the reshuffling of the reform of New Europe. A major part was played in the formulation of the ethnic identity of Bosnian Muslims by the Islamic Community, under unique conditions and in cooperation with the Communist Yugoslavia of Josip Broz Tito from 1945 to 1990''. For more see: "Islam as a Way of Defining the National Identity of Bosnian Muslims," Occasional Papers on Religion in Eastern Europe: Vol. 34 (2014) is. 5, Article 1. https://digitalcommons.georgefox.edu/ree/vol34/iss5/1. It is not possible that the Grand Viziers of the Ottoman Empire had such an identity. Jingiby (talk) 03:24, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Not to be confused with Bošnjani - an archaic name originating from the Middle Ages, designating the inhabitants of Bosnia. During the 12th century, the Banate of Bosnia was created, centered in the valley of the river Bosna. From that root, the local demonym was transformed in an endonym form of Bošnjani, designating the Medieval inhabitants of Bosnia. Jingiby (talk) 03:44, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * No reliable sources were provided in support of the opposite thesis, neither discussion was held. Just blind revert. Jingiby (talk) 16:13, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I waited a while longer, but nothing changed. I invited the editor, who is constantly changing the article, to present all the sources here, but to no avail. Therefore, I return the article to the referenced version.Jingiby (talk) 05:11, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Suggestions to improve the list
Comparing this list to the lists of other country's heads of government (like France) this one is quite cumbersome to read, and can very much be better standardized. I would like to make various improvements to this article and would like some input.

To standardize this article to more similar to other articles of heads of government:


 * 1) A column for the Sultan should be added.
 * 2) Background details column should be deleted, information of the Grand Viziers should just be read in their articles, other country's lists of prime ministers negate this and its implementation in this article is not at all regular.
 * 3) Split up the list. Most obvious would be split the lists for the Grand Viziers of the First + Second Constitutional Monarchies
 * 4) For later Grand Viziers, add a column for their cabinet

Benlittlewiki (talk) 03:46, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Ethnic origins should be added. A poor son of Adam (talk) 17:28, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Readers should refer to the grand viziers respective wikipedia articles for their ethnic origins. Besides having them on this list just produces lots of disputes because ethnicity was not recorded very well back then. Benlittlewiki (talk) 17:12, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Çandarlı Ali Pasha and Süleyman Çelebi
Could anyone add Süleyman Çelebi to Çandarlı Ali Pasha? Back then, Süleyman Çelebi was considered a legitimate ruler, because of Çandarlı Ali Pasha standing on his side for 4 years (1402-1406). Beshogur (talk) 13:13, 5 January 2022 (UTC)


 * could you do this please? I don't get this. So the four years of Çandarlı Ali Pasha is missing, which is Süleyman Çelebi. Beshogur (talk) 12:54, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Could someone fix this article?
I can't seem to solve the issue of line spacing with the epithets, and for some reason Osman III doesn't feel like cooperating Benlittlewiki (talk) 17:47, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Why is this a list article?
Shouldn’t this article just be titled Grand Vizier of the Ottoman Empire? —GoldRingChip 01:28, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Epithets small and on top of the given names?
I have been split on whether the grand vezir's epithets should be smaller and placed above their given names or included with their given names if it makes them more recognizable. Input would be appreciated. Benlittlewiki (talk) 21:12, 22 June 2022 (UTC)