Talk:Mariah Carey/Archive 14

Birth of Mariah Carey
Hi,

This NY Times article says she was born March 27, 1970 http://www.nytimes.com/movies/person/10883/Mariah-Carey/biography. But it says another thing also. It says that she was named after the song "And They Called the Wind Maria" from the movie Paint Your Wagon (1969). If the movie Paint Your Wagon was released on October 15, 1969, she can't be born March 27, 1969..."Columbo" --Danielvis08 (talk) 00:03, 25 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you for pointing out the purported NY Times cite. It's actually not the NY Times — if you look closely, you can see it says at the top of the bio "From All Movie Guide". And at the end it says, "~ Jason Buchanan, Rovi," Rovi being the corporation that owns All Media (AllMovie.com, AllMusic.com, etc.). And even it refers to the 1951 Broadway musical, not the movie. Also, if Carey graduated high school in 1987, as it says there, she almost certainly wasn't born in 1970, since that would mean she was barely 17 when she graduated. Unless she were double-promoted —and nothing in her background suggests that this rare occurrence happened — she couldn't have been born in 1970.


 * Also, Newsday is her hometown paper and has been covering her since she began. And it looks like another cite saying 1969 was People magazine and I've no idea why it was removed. People additionally says here, "[W]e have a copy of Ms. Carey's driver's license, which lists her birthday as March 27, 1969. Furthermore, we spoke with the administrators at the high school she attended who confirmed that Ms. Carey's birthday is March 27, 1969, as did her management when we made our initial interview." So there's probably better evidence for 1969 than 1970, but since some RS sources say 1970, we have to give both. --Tenebrae (talk) 02:39, 25 March 2016 (UTC)


 * While People magazine's website does say 1969, there is nothing other than NNDB containing that quote, which easily could've been made up and falsely attributed to People since NNDB is notoriously unreliable and has been repeatedly declared as such through multiple WP:RSN discussions. Nothing in the People website (or any physical copies of the magazine I've come across) even mention her license or talking with her high school. That's why it was removed. Interestingly, I recently saw a piece from the magazine actually saying she was born 1970 (but don't have access to it at the moment since it was just something I saw from someone else reading it, but might be able to find something online). Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:59, 25 March 2016 (UTC)


 * UPDATE: Danielvis08 has recently come across this birth certificate for Mariah's daughter Monroe, which lists 1970 rather than 1969. This frankly just makes it even more likely that NNDB fabricated the quote on Mariah's driver's license and tried to mislead readers into thinking People magazine said it when in fact there is nothing to be found in their magazines or website that even mentions her license. However, given that there was consensus to include both 1969 and 1970 here and that her birth year has been a highly contentious matter in the past, this will likely require new consensus from a new RFC. I'm first going to see how much more official evidence (for a lack of a better description) supports 1970 before starting that up. Snuggums (talk / edits) 14:36, 25 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Hi, Snuggums. People actually does say 1969, so NNDB isn't lying, and I'm not sure what its motivation for that even would be. More significantly, the alleged birth certificates that have appeared online were addressed in this article's Talk archives. Please see, for example, the post signed "Hoary 01:20, 22 January 2014". Also, as previously noted: Hoax documents have been known to circulate on the Internet, and these particular ones aren't posted on any official County of Los Angeles site so the question arises: Where did they come from? Who outside the family could have obtained the children's birth certificates and scanned them? And if it was the family, why didn't the family post and announce it, rather than have them mysteriously "show up" at a couple of minor sites — and not a mainstream publication that would have vetted them? A non-vetted, alleged primary source anonymously posted to a fan site is not RS in any way.


 * People, the New York Daily News and CBS all give 1969. Her own Long Island newspaper, Newsday, says "Born in Huntington, raised in Greenlawn" &mdash; not born in Northport. The 1995 book being cited for the 1970 birthdate and for Northport appears to be just some quickie celebrity bio with questionable research. --Tenebrae (talk) 15:30, 25 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Very interesting what I found about Mariah's father Alfred, grand-father Robert and grand-mother Addie. They say in "early life" of this wiki Mariah Carey article that his grand-father immigrated from Venezuela. But the U.S.Census 1930 tells Robert, 25 years old was born in...CUBA !!! Addie is 24 years old and their son Alfred (Mariah's father) is 5/12. It means he is 5 months old. Since the Census is from April 1930, that means Alfred is born about Oct-Nov 1929 in New York. You can see the original Census and click to enlarge and deplace it to see better. Why does she tells she is of Venezuelian origin when in fact she is of Cuban origin. I let you deduce...https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X42X-3BG --Danielvis08 (talk) 17:13, 25 March 2016 (UTC)


 * To clarify, I knew the People website says 1969 and never denied or doubted that; I'm saying that NNDB very likely lied about them having her license or talking to her school since their website doesn't even say anything anywhere about her license or talking with school officials. The quote is what I suspect NNDB made up on their own. Snuggums (talk / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 17:24, 25 March 2016 (UTC)


 * As a journalist, I would suggest otherwise. People has never disputed the statement, and the kind of research it describes is standard for a Time Inc. publication. Most significantly, there's no reason or motive for NNDB to lie; that would be a hugely serious thing to do that would ruin its credibility, and for what? NNDB doesn't care personally whether it's 1969 or 1970. Given that CBS News and Carey's own hometown paper, Newsday, give 1969, it's certainly not just NNDB saying it. -- Tenebrae (talk) 00:54, 28 March 2016 (UTC)


 * NNDB never had any credibility to begin with. People probably never bothered to look at NNDB since they're more concerned with their own content, and NNDB is (quite rightfully) frequently ignored in favor of other publications anyway. <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> (<b style="color:#454545">talk</b> / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 02:54, 28 March 2016 (UTC)


 * You know I respect your work a lot. I think you can see that in this case you're making assumptions about what People did or did not know and what People may or may not have done. Those are your opinions and you're entitled to them. They have no basis in fact, however. You and I have no behind-the-scenes knowledge of People. I can only say that in my experience as a journalist, it is extremely rare that outright lying attributed to a major media corporation like Time Inc. is not readily discovered and dealt with by such corporations.--Tenebrae (talk) 15:37, 30 March 2016 (UTC)


 * There was an interview with Oprah, Mariah, and Pat Carey, Mariah's mother. Pat talks about Mariah's upbringing and says, "...in 1970, when she was born."  Even the template for Infobox Musical artist says 1970. Cloverboy19 (talk) 15:25, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

As has been noted several times on this page, celebrities and their families sometimes lie about their ages or simply get dates confused. That's why we look to objective, third-party journalistic sources such as People, CBS News, and her hometown paper, Newsday, the last of which has covered her from the start of her career and ought to know..--Tenebrae (talk) 00:55, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Here mom saying that she born in 1979. I thing the nother know when she born her baby see in this video mariahs mom say "when she born in 1970 " in 2:25 Orb087 (talk) 23:54, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Sorry 1970**** Orb087 (talk) 23:55, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Biography.com says she was born in 1970. Mariahfan999 (talk) 04:11, 23 July 2016 (UTC)


 * And other reliable sources say 1969. See link in post immediately below.--Tenebrae (talk) 09:32, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't think there's any one source that can completely verify it. Since her career started before the internet really took off and became the biggest research hub in the world, early articles sometimes had misinformation. Most articles I've read have said she was born in 1970 though. I guess we'll have to wait for the official biography to come out :P Mariahfan999 (talk) 11:38, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Mariah/J-Lo feud
So I don't want to put this on MC's wikipedia page because it's spanned three decades now and wouldn't really fit, but should there be a page for their feud? It's pretty famous and has a long backstory, not to mention it's taken on a life of its own.Mariahfan999 (talk) 11:54, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I doubt it as that would likely be undue negative weight on two living people. Unless it involves legal issues, feuds tend not to be worth mentioning anyway. <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> (<b style="color:#454545">talk</b> / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 13:04, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Nick Cannon
I want to change their married status to separated. They filed for divorce but it isn't finalized. Just want to check to see if it's okay so I don't get bombarded with violations for it.Mariahfan999 (talk) 13:54, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * It would need much better referencing than that; PopCrush isn't by any means a reliable source. See WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 131 for more. <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> (<b style="color:#454545">talk</b> / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 14:07, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that pop crush qualifies as a reliable source, especially for such an important fact in a biography of a living person. Has Carey's marital status been reported in some other sources - maybe a major newspaper or magazine, like Hollywood Reporter, Variety, LA Times, People, or perhaps an online source like Entertainment Weekly?  Any of those would be better. Shearonink (talk) 14:16, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * PopCrush definitely isn't reliable as shown in the thread I linked above. <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> (<b style="color:#454545">talk</b> / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 14:20, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

I wasn't going to use popcrush as the cite. I was just asking for when I find a source. Mariahfan999 (talk) 15:41, 24 July 2016 (UTC) Found some. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mariahfan999 (talk • contribs) 15:49, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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NYE Performance
I added a little blurb about Carey's blunder during the 2016 NYE celebration. I see it was deleted. I feel it was a big moment and I credited a source.

Is this article being watched by hardcore fans or something? Events in an artists career should be noted, good or bad.Daleylife (talk) 20:36, 1 January 2017 (UTC)


 * The major problem is how the source you inserted wasn't reliable. This would need some much better citing if including it in the article. <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> (<b style="color:#454545">talk</b> / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 20:50, 1 January 2017 (UTC)


 * That overlong paragraph goes into excessively newsy details and seems as if it could be trimmed for WP:NOTNEWS and WP:UNDUE. I'm not suggesting major surgery, since it was a significant news event that highlighted the issue of performers lip-syncing, but it could be half as long and still contain the salient facts --Tenebrae (talk) 19:00, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * It definitely is WAY too long. <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> (<b style="color:#454545">talk</b> / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 19:52, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Deleted it again. That was basically a news article in and of itself. Mariahfan999 (talk) 21:18, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * And reverted. This content should clearly be covered. And, as mentioned before on this talk page, the "Vocal and timbre" section should include information about the decline of her vocal ability, not simply praise. This is not a fansite. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:26, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Neutrality. Is encyclopedic and relevant. Support keep the information. Chrishonduras  ( Diskussion ) 21:28, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Mariahfan999 had now begun edit-warring on the article page. I have placed a warning on his own talk page. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:31, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * No one is saying it shouldn't be in there, but it is way too long. It doesn't need a play by play of the events. And as for including info about vocal decline, find credible sources.Mariahfan999 (talk) 21:37, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Credible source - Mistercontributer (talk) 22:45, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * There was no need whatsoever to remove the entire paragraph. And, surely, just like there are critics praising the singing voice Carey used to have, there are critics commenting on the singing voice she no longer has. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:19, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Mariahfan999: Maybe, but there is not reason the revert and make a edit war. Maybe with a template like Under construction can help. Chrishonduras ( Diskussion ) 21:41, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * New addition are way to detailed....at most a sentence or two. Removal till condensing would be best for the integrity of the article.....as this is not a news paper.--Moxy (talk) 22:05, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * From what I see, that one paragraph adequately summarizes the topic. I do not see how the current paragraph compromises the integrity of the article. I am open to it being trimmed, but one or two sentences will not do. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:19, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It is a huge paragraph that the sources can deal with details. AS of now the section covering a few years is dominated by ONE performance. This type of messed up in the audio etc.... happens all the time...not a career changing event in anyway.--Moxy (talk) 22:28, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * This event received a lot of media attention, probably more than anything else related to her in 2016. And given the level of criticism she received for this incident, it may very well be a career-changing event; we don't know. I do see the paragraph as very due in its current state, but I think that Tenebrae should be given the task of trimming it if it's to be trimmed. Tenebrae knows how to trim without leaving out important detail. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:38, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the kind words! I'm a journalist and editor in real life, so I'm glad to be able to put that experience to use here. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:00, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I've reduced it here. How does that look compared to what was there before? <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> (<b style="color:#454545">talk</b> / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 22:39, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I was just about to state that you trimmed it. Looks good. Good job. As soon as I got through mentioning Tenebrae knowing how to trim well, I thought about you. You didn't disappoint. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:43, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much, Flyer :) <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> (<b style="color:#454545">talk</b> / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 22:44, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks so much guys for trimming it. I wrote the original (long) paragraph and never looked at the talk page. My apologies. Looks much better now. Tcwmatt (talk) 00:30, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

I do kind of think that it's not really necessary or that there is too much detail. There's nearly more about the evening this happened than the whole 2 years of events in the sub-section itself. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to include the detail to the level that it currently is. — <b style="color:#595454">Calvin999</b> 23:57, 2 January 2017 (UTC)


 * There seems to be consensus to trim it. I'll give it a whack now. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:08, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I've just given it another clean up. Too much drama;  Worldwide attention! 11 million viewers!  Amassed a wave of critics!  Entirely unsourced and undue emphasis! -- Escape Orbit  (Talk) 19:47, 3 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that was Sandiego91. I've also gone in and made it more neutral WP:TONE, explaining my edits in the edit-summary. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:57, 4 January 2017 (UTC)


 * It is too early to determine the significance of this event. It has been 3 days and this incident is still being discussed in the news. We may need to expand this section in the future depending on how this situation plays out, due to potential lawsuits, impact on her career, etc. - Mistercontributer (talk) 03:58, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

I think that what is there now it too little detail. I prefer SNUGGUMS's trim. I appreciate Tenebrae giving it a whack, but the content had already been trimmed by SNUGGUMS and summarized the matter better. After that trim, it was Calvin999 who expressed "I do kind of think that it's not really necessary or that there is too much detail." I obviously disagree with Calvin999, per my statements above. We should also avoid words like "claimed" and "denied" in this case, per WP:SAID. I'm pretty much done debating this topic (the level of detail), though. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:57, 4 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I agree. Consensus was not reached to trim further. This section currently provides incomplete and inadequate explanation of what has transpired regarding this incident. We may add back any relevant information that was removed during trimming process. We may also add other relevant information as this situation plays itself out. - Mistercontributer (talk) 03:52, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 January 2017
Please correct Mariah Carey's birth year. In 2015, she released a single titled "Infinity" and in support of that, a Match.com profile was created. That profile states that her age is currently 46, confirming her birth year 1970. Also, in the late 90's, Mariah's mother, Patricia was on the Oprah show and Patricia clearly states Mariah's birth year as 1970. Dreese32 (talk) 07:14, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Per previous talk page discussions, 1969 and 1970 are both to be included since sources vary on what her birth year is. The YouTube link of Patricia has also been rejected due to the possibility of making Mariah seem younger than she really is. Not sure what to say about the Match.com profile. A new consensus will be needed to only list 1970 in the article. <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> (<b style="color:#454545">talk</b> / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 07:18, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

The woman who gave birth to her is not the most reliable source available? Why would she lie about one year difference? Pretty sure any source other than the woman who gave birth to her who would be considfered unreliable. The match.com profile was something her and her team set up in promotion of the new single. Dreese32 (talk) 07:39, 5 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying I agree with rejecting Patricia's word. In fact, I personally agree it should be deemed viable and have seen much more credible support overall for 1970 than 1969. However, it has come up before and been turned down multiple times. YouTube links are also discouraged as citations anyway due to potential copyright concerns. It would be better to use transcripts of interviews. If you have birth records proving beyond reasonable doubt that it was 1970 and can gain consensus that it is usable, then we could just list 1970. After extensive discussion agreeing to list multiple years, it would take a thorough consensus to change to only one year, whether 1969 or 1970. <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> (<b style="color:#454545">talk</b> / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 15:02, 5 January 2017 (UTC)


 * In addition to everything <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> says, celebrities and their families are not always 100% truthful when it comes to celebrities' ages. And while I agree that we must go with both birth years that equally reliable sources state, let me just say that 1970 is impossible for someone who graduated high school in 1987 — it means she would have had to start senior year at 16. There is no evidence anywhere that she was ever double-promoted. --Tenebrae (talk) 19:44, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * If she did graduate in 1987, then it actually is theoretically possible she started and/or finished school early compared to other US citizens (I have family and friends who had their last year of high school early compared to the norm), even if less likely than starting/finishing at what is deemed the typical age. This of course would require looking into for Mariah's case either way. <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> (<b style="color:#454545">talk</b> / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 21:22, 5 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I agree that "impossible" was overstating it. But, yeah, very unlikely, and it would be, as SNUGGUMS says, something that would have to be confirmed. --Tenebrae (talk) 23:21, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * What about in a 20/20 interview (I marked the time), Barbara Walters says she is 28 in 1998. which would practically confirm her birth date as 1970. Also this interview as well, in 2011 notes her being "40 and pregnant". --<span style="font-weight:bold;font-variant:small-caps;color:#FFFFFF;background-color:#F49259;letter-spacing:1pt;">Jennica ✿ / talk 11:32, 6 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Yet the highly prestigious International Who's Who, CBS News and her very own hometown paper, Newsday, that was covering her from her very beginning all says 1969. --18:40, 6 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I started grade school a year early. I am close to her age. They let children do that back then if the parents made the request. I graduated high school when I was 17 and started college when I was 17. That was fairly common back then. Mistercontributer (talk) 21:06, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Previous discussions about this have all reached the inescapable conclusion that the sources are mixed about this, and no real reason why one date should be preferred over the other. Unless there is any new, excellent, reliable source that has come to light? But what we can't do is work out her birthday from other possible dates, estimations and anecdotes. That's just original research. Carey appears to have deliberately evasive about her birth date her entire career. Even when she may, or may not, have been 40 she carefully avoided either confirming or denying it. Personally, I think the only sure way of resolving this would be some kind of official document. Until then, does it really matter that much? -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 22:07, 6 January 2017 (UTC)


 * My point is either year may fit with her other biographical data so it cannot be deduced from that information. Obviously this is not a critical issue. However, Wikipedia should strive to be as accurate as possible with regards to biographical information. Most biographies of living people do not say "we are not sure when the person was born." Seems lazy on the part of Wikipedia editors to leave it at that. Mistercontributer (talk) 22:27, 6 January 2017 (UTC)


 * This version of Mariah's talk page has the (now deleted) section on her birth year.Mariahfan999 (talk) 15:44, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * That thread actually didn't get deleted; it was archived at Talk:Mariah Carey/Archive 14. <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> (<b style="color:#454545">talk</b> / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 17:08, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It may seem that way, but I can assure you that far more effort has been devoted to trying to get her definitive birth date than 99% of other articles. -- Escape Orbit  (Talk) 22:43, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Just another random blurb. In her Oprah interview in 2002, Oprah says to her face something about being 32. --<span style="font-weight:bold;font-variant:small-caps;color:#FFFFFF;background-color:#F49259;letter-spacing:1pt;">Jennica ✿ / talk 05:51, 13 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Multiple reliable sources indicate 1970 as her birth year. Mistercontributer (talk) 22:53, 13 January 2017 (UTC)


 * And multiple reliable sources say 1969, including The International Who's Who 2004, CBS News and her hometown paper, Newsday, to give the three footnoted in the article, and others including the reference publisher Greenwood's Music in American Life: An Encyclopedia of the Songs, Styles, Stars, and Stories that Shaped our Culture and IGN.com, to give just two. And the news network CNN says, "March 27, 1969 (some sources say 1970)". The only appropriate thing is to give both years. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:27, 14 January 2017 (UTC)


 * So your position is that Mariah and her Mother are intentionally misleading the public regarding her age? Mistercontributer (talk) 02:18, 14 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Celebrities and their families do it all the time. They've done it since the earliest days of Hollywood. And it's besides the point anyway: We can't POV choose one set of RS sources over another. Personally, I believe her hometown paper Newsday, which agrees with sources including The International Who's Who 2004 and CBS News. But other sources say different, so no matter my personal belief and what I consider the logic that she didn't start her senior year of high school at 16, I can't insist on it. We have to accept the fact that hugely reliable sources disagree. --Tenebrae (talk) 02:24, 16 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I started my senior year of high school when I was 16 and graduated when I was 17. The rules were not strict 40 years ago regarding when children could start grade school. I personally do not think she is lying about her age. People may incorrectly assume she was born in 1969 since she graduated high school in 1987, which is most likely the root cause of the confusion. I also believe CNN and other news outlets check Wikipedia for this type of information so it is a closed loop of referencing. Mistercontributer (talk) 05:00, 16 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Pretty sure The International Who's Who does not use Wikipedia. Nor did People magazine in November 1993 when they said she was 24. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:57, 17 January 2017 (UTC)