Talk:Metalcore

This is all wrong. Metalcore started in the late 2000s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.19.122.181 (talk) 08:00, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Decline in popularity
Many bands have started to either break up or move away from this genre.

Examples of change:
 * Asking Alexandria - Started to incorperate heavy metal and hard rock into their music.
 * Of Mice & Men - Started to incorporate nu metal into their music.
 * Bullet for My Valentine - Have become a thrash metal and heavy metal band.
 * Avenged Sevenfold - Abandoned the genre after their second album.

Examples of break ups:
 * Woe, Is Me (2013)
 * Attack Attack! (2013)
 * Make Me Famous (2012)
 * The Bled (2012)
 * Bleeding Through (Are currently making plans to break up in early 2014.)

Critiques have also started to negatively review Metalcore albums. Albums by Woe, Is Me and Attack Attack! for example have been very negative before they broken up. Should there not be a new section in history to say that from 2010s onward, the popularity of this genre has started to decline? - 16:35, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * No disrespect to your claim, as there is plausible merit to the concept of metalcore's declining, this is a unsupported claim. You need reliable sources specifically claiming metalcore is declining to include it into the article. I would argue that it is hitting points of popularity. That perhaps Asking Alexandria & Of Mice & Men may have changed, they still are very much metalcore groups and continue to grow in size. This is also neglectful of very popular and very successful records (from 2013 alone) like Disarm the Descent, 8:18, Sempiternal and Common Courtesy. The latter two bands, Bring Me the Horizon and A Day to Remember are at extremely high points in their popularity, perhaps even some of the highest metalcore has seen since the explosion of Killswitch Engage and As I Lay Dying over 10 years ago. And as for breakups, only two of those (Attack Attack! and Bleeding Through) are bands of significant legacy, in music it's typical for bands to break up- and looking at the details of their acclaim- some of these bands never reached that far. (and in personal opinion, The Bled wern't metalcore but that's irrelevant).Jonjonjohny (talk) 17:12, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, and non taken. - 18:07, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Cultural origins
What do you guys think should be listed under this? I have created it to state "Late 1980s and early 1990s", as the arguably first metalcore album, Hogan's Heroes' Built to Last was released in 1988, and other bands, in my opinion, defined the genre in the upcoming years. However, "Mid 1980s" was proposed instead to correspond with Hogan's Heroes' formation and the recording of their demo tape in 1985. I have now made it into a compromise, "Mid to late 1980s", but I would like to see a consensus reached on this. You can read the related discussion here on my talk page. MA SHAUN IX 19:26, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

When something starts it starts. Wikipedia as a learning tool should always reflect just that. The most accurate information for Anyone who wants to learn about a topic, genre, company etc. Black Sabbath" is One Band who is regarded in music history as starting heavy metal . Hogans Heroes "demo" was on thanks lists of National Metal and Hardcore Based bands . Those demos made it around like an album would via tape trading . They still were influential . Its their 1985 time period that has a Mention in "American Hardcore" book by Steven Blush . If the demo wasn't "around" like an LP it wouldn't have made it in any book . Also when something starts it "starts" . Apple computers , for example, was started in a garage not when they had Worldwide or National Distribution . The start date is in the Garage . same demo is right here under performer "H" or under Song by letter "C" "corporate life" and letter "D" Drugs". http://www.americanhardcorebook.com/punk24/

68.39.152.45 (talk) 20:04, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Even if it goes by first national and Worldwide release what does it says Songs "With the exception of, "Built to Last", "Inner Strength", and "Change", all of the material for Built to Last was written before 1987." 10 of 13 songs written Prior to 1988. I personally am Fine with Mid to Late 80s. However it may be Quite more Accurate as Mid 80s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Built_to_Last_(Hogan%27s_Heroes_album) 68.39.152.45 (talk) 21:14, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

clean/unclean vocals
There is a discussion about this here that might be of interest to some. Karst (talk) 22:50, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Genre influences
According to the arcticle, the only 3 influences of Metalcore are Extreme metal, Hardcore punk and Crossover thrash. first, Extreme metal? There's many styles of extreme metal, such as Doom metal, Black metal, and Avant-garde metal. I already know these 3 did not influence Metalcore very much, since it's too fast for doom, and not satanic enough for Black metal. If I had to list the influences, I'd say Thrash metal, Death metal, Hardcore punk, crossover thrash, and nu metal. There has been a significant influence by nu metal on the genre. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Of_Mice_%26_Men_(band)#Musical_style explains as much


 * The stylistic origins section lists genres that metalcore grew out of when it first appeared, i.e. in the late 1980s. Whether doom or black metal had much influence on this early form is disputable, but reliable sources suggest metalcore to be a fusion genre of extreme metal in general (and not just of thrash and death) with hardcore punk, and the article is based in these sources, not the opinions of editors. Nu metal could not originally influence metalcore, because it didn't exist back then.-- MA SHAUN IX 21:37, 1 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Is post-hardcore is one of the influences of metalcore?User talk:Siahaankingdom 09.17,22 February 2015 (UTC)


 * The sources used in the article don't indicate that it originally influenced metalcore. I think the 2 genres only came to be related later, with bands like Underoath.-- MA SHAUN IX 16:06, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

removing NWOBHM when its Clearly mentioned in the article, and replacing it with "bands" (list of bands) when "bands" is already there in the "see also"
Removal of one link, NWOBHM in "other topics" which is clearly mentioned in the article in favor of a List you (this editor) made being in "other topics" and already in "see also" is helpful How. Again ? not understanding. They Both can be there and are. Work on something useful. You got your list in see also. A list is not a "topic" its a List. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 20:20, 13 July 2015 (UTC)


 * A list of bands is typically included in the other topics field for genre articles, for example in featured articles such as heavy metal music or punk rock. This is IMO done because such a list is directly relevant to the genre and readers should have easy access to it. NWOBHM is mentioned in an article, but not in a way that would justify including it in this field. If you think it is a key source of influence, argue for including it in stylistic origins.-- MA SHAUN IX 12:05, 14 July 2015 (UTC)


 * No NWOBHM doesn't need to be in stylistic origins. This needs consensus. With No Sock Puppets. A List isn't a topic. Your list, you created, is already in the "See also". Plenty of easy access to that. Its right on the page. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 12:21, 14 July 2015 (UTC)


 * In that case, do you suggest we remove the same lists from the same fields in heavy metal music and punk rock? Since these are featured articles and have had lists of bands linked from the infobox for a while now, it would seem the consensus is that such lists should be included.-- MA SHAUN IX 12:26, 14 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I suggest you take one issue at a time. Stop Reverting me, use the talk page, don't use any sock puppets and establish consensus. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 12:33, 14 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm not using any sock puppets. I'm discussing the issue with you now. Please explain your stance. Do you think lists of bands should never have a place in genre article infoboxes?-- MA SHAUN IX 13:19, 14 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Didn't say you are. Said don't. "Stance" is as above. NWOBHM doesn't need to be in stylistic origins. This needs consensus. With No Sock Puppets. A List isn't a topic. Your list, you created, is already in the "See also". Plenty of easy access to that. Its right on the page. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 13:27, 14 July 2015 (UTC)


 * It doesn't matter whether that I created the list. Genre infoboxes always include a list of bands under "other topics" if the list exists. This has been done for a long time (as evident from the featured articles I have linked), and you are the only one who opposes it. Please explain why.-- MA SHAUN IX 17:42, 16 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Do you read what it says above. its pretty clear. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 17:45, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
 * A topic isn't a list. About you're comment "Genre infoboxes always include a list of bands under "other topics" if the list exists." it took two seconds to find this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_metal CombatMarshmallow (talk) 17:47, 16 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Not literally "always", but it is common practice, and in my opinion, correct. Why couldn't a list be a topic? The other topics section of the infobox serves as a place to include links to other articles that are directly relevant to the genre, and not mentioned somewhere else in the infobox. This is so that the reader can see that these articles exist and follow the links to them if they wish. A list of bands is as relevant to a genre as any other article. Why should the reader not be given easy access to it from the infobox? What are the advantages of not including it?-- MA SHAUN IX 16:56, 18 July 2015 (UTC)


 * A list is not a topic. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 17:43, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

"shai hulud"
This reference is Promo for them and 10 other bands. Like usual "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mashaunix" is edit warring. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 14:57, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

This is Not what wikipedia is about.
I added this information to the metalcore article and to heavy metal. Binksternet (talk claimed I "work for the company" and is telling me I can't edit without asking via a warning. Cant a person just create an article that they understand and put them where they rightfully belong without being accused. Ive been accused of creating stuff after it took hours of searches on google. He claimed they were mage at "google" or something I have no idea. Unreal. Hogan's Heroes,

https://prezi.com/cyifu7ugm3g1/the-history-of-metalcore


 * Meanwhile https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/OnBeyondZebrax&offset=&limit=500&target=OnBeyondZebrax created the Deena Weinstein article https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Deena_Weinstein&action=history and adds Deena Weinstein everywhere possible including at Heavy Metal music page and he doesn't issue a warning there but gives me one claiming I am part of some company.CombatMarshmallow (talk) 06:10, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

reverting despite inaccuracy
Notice Integrity source because its not Hogan's Heroes was left untouched. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Metalcore&diff=682359264&oldid=682349719 A few times now. Hogan's Heroes, Earth Crisis, and Integrity "Judge, Integrity and Hogan's Heroes were some of the earliest bands to bring this level of intensity to hardcore—an amalgamation of deep, hoarse vocals (though rarely as deep or guttural as death metal); downtuned guitars and thrashy drum rhythms inspired by earlier hardcore bands; and slow staccato low-end breaks, known as breakdowns. Thrash metal and melodic death metal elements are also common in metalcore." says its not about metalcore. the full text titles the section "Metalcore". I don't feel the free webs is that great of a source but it was removed from Hogan's Heroes and left on Integrity.

"The Metal Music Archives source barely mentions the band Hogan's Heroes. You are misrepresenting the source, which says they were hardcore punk. Your personal interpretation of genres is interesting but it is not supported by the sources. Look, if you keep pumping up that band you are going to get blocked. They are not as huge as you think. Binksternet (talk) 07:32, 23 September 2015" My feelings don't guide my editing here. Accuracy to the Best of My Ability does.


 * The source, Metal Music Archives http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/artist/hogans-heroes . says formed in 1984. The band was seminal in the development of metallic hardcore, skatepunk, metalcore and crossover thrash The opening statement is original. Have only utilized the original statement which in full states "Hogan's Heroes was a hardcore punk band from New Jersey, formed in 1984. The band was seminal in the development of metallic hardcore, skatepunk, metalcore and crossover thrash." statement has never been on wikipedia or on the web. Metal Music Archives administrator original evaluation. Doesn't realize bands from back then can be considered 5 different sub genres. All with validity. removed anyway https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Metalcore&diff=next&oldid=682359264


 * These sources, one is Metal Music Archives, which states "Seminal In Metallic Hardcore" The other two sources are Kent McClard. Between 1984 and 1995, a new wave of hardcore bands emerged. These included Hogan's Heroes,


 * Though it clearly states Metalcore same editor removing anyway Metalcore emerged from the subcultures of heavy metal and hardcore punk. Although some metalcore groups, such as Hogan's Heroes, in their early years, have abstained from alcohol and other drugs (typical of the straight edge movement), other prominent ones such as Integrity and Asking Alexandria have not.


 * Hogan's Heroes is the earliest Metalcore band. Built To Last is the earliest Metalcore release with worldwide distribution.


 * That is just some stuff going on. When valid sources are removed for someones own way, the wiki suffers.CombatMarshmallow (talk) 03:41, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

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Other topics
In the other topics. There is somewhat of an ownership seeming to happen where as on most pages you add your work and there isn't the same edits and wanting to reason why genres not directly relative, already on the page should be back in the other topics section. Sludge metal and post hardcore aren't directly relative and bands are represented in "See also". We have to use this talk page extensively before we go to noticeboard for some concrete decisions. 50.234.3.132 (talk) 14:41, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Indeed it is better to discuss here. I'll repeat the argument from my edit summary: why couldn't something be both in the infobox and the see also section? As for post-hardcore, there is a strong overlap stretching from pioneering 1990s bands such as Converge/Shai Hulud/Poison the Well to late-2000s and 2010s metalcore where most every dominant band has been associated with post-hardcore, especially BMTH, ADTR, and Asking Alexandria. As for sludge metal, the logic was simply to include all fusions of metal and hardcore in the infobox since all of them could be described as "metallic hardcore"... sludge could be easily described as "doom metalcore". However since there is no evidence of a strong overlap (though there is some with Converge and ETID) I would understand why you would oppose that. The other two I do not understand.-- MA SHAUN IX 15:01, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Ive been thinking about this for awhile. I do understand what your angle is. I feel I understand pretty completely. I will come back with in about 2 - 3 hours. It may need other eyes at that point. Im only interesting in making things as correct as they are on other pages. So what ever is absolutely correct. Is really all Im interested in achieving. However it goes it can also be something to learn from. For everyone. Thank you for participating. 50.234.3.132 (talk) 16:23, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Im back. Sorry Im late. I will be back in a short bit. So we can decide what we want to do from here. Either something or nothing. 50.234.3.132 (talk) 01:34, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Provide some argument in favour of your version or please revert back to mine.-- MA SHAUN IX 13:29, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * thats not how it works. Your material is false. read Above for more clarification. its not my version. You are having a version. At your talk page it can be seen you do this stuff alot. 50.234.3.132 (talk) 17:24, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * You didn't give any arguments for why the band list, post-hardcore, and sludge should be removed. It is not "your version" but it is the version you are proposing. Why do you think it is better? The article, not my involvement in it, is the point of discussion; I will happily accept your proposition so long as you provide sound arguments.-- MA SHAUN IX 18:51, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * When you state that. Are you stating you haven't read the edit history. Also are you stating those things, all of them, haven't been addressed in the paragraph(s) above 50.234.3.132 (talk) 21:08, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, this has never been discussed. I have included these other topics and only you have contested them, with no answer to my arguments just above.-- MA SHAUN IX 22:59, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * You state those are "arguments" above. why are they "arguments" are you angry. None of my replies are arguments 50.234.3.132 (talk) 16:08, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Well that is the problem; you need to make an argument. We disagree on what the other topics section should consist of. I've explained my reasoning (argument) for my point of view. What is your reasoning for yours? In other words, why is the article better if we the list of bands, post-hardcore, and sludge metal are not linked to in the section?-- MA SHAUN IX 18:50, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The "problem" there is no problem. There is No Direct relevance.50.234.3.132 (talk) 09:37, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
 * How is a list of bands within a genre not directly relevant to the genre? And why does the strong overlap with post-hardcore among both the pioneering bands and the most popular contemporary bands not qualify as a direct relation?-- MA SHAUN IX 16:12, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
 * A list of bands doesn't teach about the topic. Its on the page after the article at See Also. 50.234.3.132 (talk) 06:47, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

In the lead
The lead is about Metalcore. Crust and grind are on their own articles. The word Particular. Pantera and Sepultura are mentioned here in the lead. Already making them particular by Definition 50.234.3.132 (talk) 21:29, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The point of mentioning crust and grind was to highlight that there are other genres in the same way as metalcore (fusion of hardcore and extreme metal) and through this point out what makes metalcore specific. That they have their own articles doesn't mean they cannot be mentioned here to say something about metalcore.-- MA SHAUN IX 23:01, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The definition of Metalcore is very specific it doesn't need any help. The one common thread is you and the other editor that showed up have an invested interest in Discharge band. Crust is more relevant to Discharge than metalcore.50.234.3.132 (talk) 07:10, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Mathcore
primarily a dissonant fusion of heavy metal, math rock and hardcore punk 50.234.3.132 (talk) 13:47, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
 * "Mathcore is a dissonant fusion of heavy metal and hardcore punk characterized by unusual time signatures, experimentation, and rhythmic complexity." The 2014 article for Dillinger escape plan video mentions "the heavy sound in instrumentation that is found in metalcore". The heavy sound found in metalcore isn't "metalcore" the heavy sound found in metalcore is heavy metal and extreme metal. 50.234.3.132 (talk) 07:57, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

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Infobox image
Just like I argued with Issun and had no response, that discussion was not a questioning whether it's relevant on that particular article, but developed on a discussion on all heavy metal infoboxes, and possibly all music infoboxes. Band images in infoboxes are useless because they generally don't address the musical part of the genres, illustrating more the cultural part (imagery, lyrical subject, cultural movement) of them, and infoboxes are more illustrative to the musical part. Even the cultural part is poorly represented, like the Metalcore's image whose image shows nothing particular about the genre at all. Tell me, how the current image illustrates the genre in any sense? How can I say that they are related with Metalcore and its characteristics only from the image? ABC paulista (talk) 15:56, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

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Hogan's Heroes photo
Does anybody else have an opinion on the use of the photo of Hogan's Heroes? Because I believe that it is such low quality that you can hardly figure out what's happening in it, and there is other pictures that could be included of both bands with better quality photos and more relevance to the topic. Issan Sumisu (talk) 05:59, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Hi! Hogan's Heroes on wikipedia in general was introduced by the Combatmarshmallow, who has been banned permanently. Their notability is questionable and they have been strewn about wikipedia by this user and many, many sockpuppet accounts. If you believe it is a good idea to use a better image, I would agree with you, since this band typically only shows up due to some remaining influence of this sockpuppet user's long tirade of edits to make it seem like this band is much more notable than it really is. Vortiene (talk) 16:41, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Also, if you remove this image and someone re-adds it, please report them for sock puppetry, because it is most likely our friend Combatmarshmallow still at it. Vortiene (talk) 16:50, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

There's more info about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_91#Hogan's_Heroes_(band) Vortiene (talk) 16:57, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

extreme metal???
no guys, metalcore definitely isn't extreme metal Hisakata (talk) 19:48, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The article never says metalcore's a style of extreme metal, it says it originated by bands merging extreme metal and hardcore. That being the origins is undeniable, the original acts in the genre were bands like Integrity, Rorschach and Ringworm; hardcore bands who embraced the influence of death, thrash and early black metal. Issan Sumisu (talk) 09:21, 26 April 2024 (UTC)