Talk:Murder of Marwa El-Sherbini

Neutrality
I have tried to adopt neutral language and to source most of the statements. Some more work needs to be done here. I've also corrected the syntax and grammar. --Mia-etol (talk) 16:54, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks -- Arne List (talk) 22:51, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Clarification
On reading the article I'm a bit vague as to how/why her husband was injured. He was shot in the leg - and - "previously critically injured"? In terms of significance his critical injury seems more noteworthy. Do we know how it happened? I've scanned some resources but not been able to sort it out. Manning (talk) 06:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Talking to myself now... CNN says that the husband was stabbed by the assailant. But it makes no mention of the leg shooting incident, saying only that the husband was shot by police. CNN. Manning (talk) 06:39, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * He ran to help his wife and was stabbed three time, untill a police officer shot him into his leg. He lies in hospital and was in a critical situation, but not because of the shot, but the wounds of the knife. The killer is allegedly a trained former Russian soldier. -- Arne List (talk) 12:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

✅: Proper short style in referring to Marwa El-Sherbini?
The name of the victim obviously occurs multiple times, and usual style would be to use a short form in most cases. The usual German (and Western) usage as a short form would be to use the last name El-Sherbini, because the first name Marwa would be overly familiar referring to a stranger and familiarity is often taken as disrespect. However, previous contributions to this article used Marwa as a shortened form sometimes. What would be the usual short form used, for example, by Egyptians writing in the English language? Tschild (talk) 17:05, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Problem solved by another user who standardized to the last name. Tschild (talk) 22:11, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

✅: Marwa El-Sherbini's pharmacology training and work as a pharmacist
German Wikipedia says El-Sherbini studied in 1995-2000, for a bachelor's degree in pharmacology, but does not mention source and further information (where?). I'd like to add this education information to the Life section. Any precise sources known? Tschild (talk) 17:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * BTW the Max Planck Institute also says she worked as a pharmacist. Any sources where? (A pharmacist can work in a pharmacy but also in a hospital or in research). Tschild (talk) 17:35, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have now found a source and added the education information. Tschild (talk) 18:10, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

✅: identify web site of association in Dresden co-founded by El-Sherbini
According to newspaper articles http://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/artikel.asp?id=2209078 and http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/Dresden-Bluttat-Ermordung-Marwa-El-Sherbini;art771,2846201 El-Sherbini co-founded a local association. http://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/artikel.asp?id=2209078 refers to an internet page of the association but I have not found the site yet - only a press release at http://www.turkishpress.de/content/islamisches-kulturzentrum-%E2%80%9Emarwa-el-sherbini%E2%80%9C-dresden13998 which has en e-mail address not a Web URL. There http://izdresden.de but that seems to be another association (e.V.), of another name. Tschild (talk) 06:52, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think this was done a while ago by Tschild: http://www.mkez-dresden.de/ Mootros (talk) 13:04, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

✅: find referenceable source for criminal insult in Germany
The concept of criminal insult in German law does not seem to be widely understood (judging from the plurality of reports in the English-language press that refer to El-Sherbini 'suing' her later killer, sometimes of her winning compensation in the first trial). The basic concept is that in Germany insult (Beleidigung) is mainly a civil offence, but can be prosecuted as a criminal offence if there is a public interest (as seems to have been decided prior to the first trial). I cannot write something like that in a footnote because it would very likely be original research, and there is no English-language Wikipedia page on the subject to point people to (the English-language Wikipedia has articles on common law concepts like slander and libel instead), but I'd like to point readers in a footnote to a good English-language source on the concept of criminal insult particularly in Germany - can anyone point out one? Tschild (talk) 10:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Non-NPOV in Initial media reports section
77.20.72.238 changed back the wording to "was reported on 1 July 2009 ... and in print media with a tone of understatement on the following day. ... overshadowed by calls...". That's a non-NPOV phrasing and I'm going to change it back. You can of course refer to that view, but as someone's view not as a fact. I suggest you find a good source criticising the reporting and report that source's view, with a reference: "such and such a commentator criticised the initial reporting as understating the xenophobic|islamophobic nature of the attack", or some suchphrasing. Tschild (talk) 17:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I don't think there is much to discuss about this. It was hate speech, completely misquoting the source. I was about to do the very same edit, but you were quicker. -- Alpetragius (talk) 15:08, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Removal of para in Response by Muslim and Jewish bodies section
Why has this been removed? ''They called upon Muslims not to instrumentalize the woman's death. Egyptians working at Dresden University claimed they had not been subject to discrimation before and that they see the murder as an isolated incident.'' --89.245.194.219 (talk) 11:20, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Deleted by 77.20.72.238 - I have posted a note on that IP's talk page inviting him/her to this talk page. (I have made this issue a new section on the talk page for clarity.) Tschild (talk) 18:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have taken the liberty to revert this change as well – honestly, I don't expect the IP to quietly discuss things here. -- Alpetragius (talk) 15:21, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "not to instrumentalize..." What the heck kind of a word is this, and what does it mean here? Looking it up, the only definition I find is 'to transcribe a piece of music for an instrument'.  And it can't be the actual word used, since that was not in English.  Maybe a poor translation?  Whatever, it needs to be fixed. T-bonham (talk) 08:27, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I suspect this is a poor translation. "Instrumentalisieren" translates to something like "to exploit" - which is a rather loaded word. "Instrumentalisieren" is loaded too, but a little less so, IMO. Not sure about the best replacement, but I also think it needs to be replaced. Stefanmuc (talk) 11:20, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Max Planck Society
Why is the reaction of the Max Planck Society relevant? Am I missing something?Datacharge (talk) 06:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * El-Sherbini's husband is/was a postgraduate student at one of their institutions. Is their opinion notable? I don't know. WWGB (talk) 06:16, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * NB I have since moved the material to a somewhat broader subsection. Tschild (talk) 10:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comments
There are a lot of issues here that raise comment. Why is the Max Planck Society comment relevant? Can this be subsumed into a section on "responses" to the crime? If the woman has been transformed from victim into cause celebe then there needs to be neutral point of view clarification of this, supported by reputable, and verifiable citations. Third, the material clarifying the German legal stand on last names, etc., needs to be better integrated into the text, rather than parenthetically; it is too distracting as a parenthetical remark within a sentence. Finally, MAJOR copy edit should be done. So, while it's a fairly complicated article, with lots of sources, it's still a start, albeit a good one.Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:03, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for using so many German-language references
A lot of facts are sourced with German-language references (newspapers, some broadcast media) - I don't rightly know how to avoid it at present. There are good English-language sources that can be used wrt international reactions (Iranian president Ahmadinejad has weighted in lately - is that notable here?) but relating to the local facts in Dresden the English-language sources seem to be third or fourth hand. No sources that are nearly as rich in details as e.g. http://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/artikel.asp?id=2209078. Perhaps there will be good English-language writeups in the quality press when the indictment comes down in a few months' time. Tschild (talk) 22:37, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * See also NONENG - English-language sources preferable; sources in other languages acceptable where an English equivalent is not available. Tschild (talk) 20:54, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately it is still the case that a lot of details (from the trial, now) are only available in German-language sources - the English-language articles that I have found up to now spend a lot of space on a general recap of the case and are short on details and long on misunderstandings (such as that the original trial for defamation was a civil one). Are there no English-language reporters doing original reporting from the courtroom rather than repeating prior articles and drawing on agency reports? Tschild (talk) 08:05, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

... well, not really
Under "Verbal abuse and criminal case for insult" the following is plain wrong: "... a dispute about her 3-year old son, who was apparently playing on a swing that his niece wanted to use." Appearing last on the scene, Marwa El-Sherbini stepped out towards uncle (Alex W.) and his niece, then occupying the two swings on the playground, claiming the swing for her son. --MilesSmiles (talk) 17:54, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There are somewhat conflicting accounts now: http://www.fr-online.de/in_und_ausland/politik/aktuell/?em_cnt=1821248 (of 3 July) says Alex W. wanted El-Sherbini's son to make place for W's niece; on the other hand http://www.morgenpost.de/printarchiv/politik/article1134380/Zwischen_Kopftuechern_und_Vorurteilen.html (of 19 July) says El-Sherbini wanted Alex W. to make place for her son (Alex W. apparently sitting on the swing). As this detail is not material I'll try to think of a form of words that covers both versions. Tschild (talk) 19:48, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I just followed your link and much to my surprise found indeed this article backing the other version. Never read anything anywhere like that someplace else. Well, FR and some other publications are on a very strange campaign, scandalizing the events as if the woman fell victim to something they like to call 'islamophobia'. Therefore any form of critizism of the fidels and their customs is proved dangerous by now and should be prohibited. What is strange: there are a lots of scarf-victims indeed: almost every other day Muslim women are slaughtered by their fathers, brothers, uncles and cousins all over Europe, because they want to quit wearing the scarf (or 'harming the honour' of 'their owners' in other ways) - all this never did provoke any outcry of those organised Muslims or their entourage, who are now proclaiming their deep grieve for the 'first Martyr of the scarf in Germany'. Even the policeman shooting the husband in the turmoil is a 'nazi' and a racist to some of those by now. You'll have to look very hard into those papers fuelling this campaign to find statements of the Ex-Muslims or the statement of aegyptiens in Germany. Those very concerned are not amused by this campaign at all. It would have been better to wait w/ this article until after the trail. --MilesSmiles (talk) 20:53, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure exactly what you are asking for; are you wanting to change the past to have this article never written? As that is not possible, maybe you want to clarify exactly what your point is.  In the interim, as regards your statement that "FR and some other publications are on a very strange campaign, scandalizing the events as if the woman fell victim to something they like to call 'islamophobia'."  According to Collins English Dictionary, islamophobia is a "hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture."  So FR and others are not on a campaign to call this a case of islamophobia, that is simply what it is.  Also, your statement that, "almost every other day Muslim women are slaughtered by their fathers, brothers, uncles and cousins all over Europe, because they want to quit wearing the scarf" is unsubstantiated and is another example of islamophobia.  And although I wouldn't go so far as to call the cop a Nazi, he obviously has some islamophobia of his own to deal with, as he assumed an unarmed Egyptian Muslim to be the criminal despite the fact that a German was standing there stabbing him.  So maybe you are the one who should "look very hard" at yourself.  —Comment added by AngelSG (talk • contribs) 20:10, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Contextless sources from a Karachi paper
I have moved the following links added at the end by an IP to this talk page: Daily Ummat Karachi,Urdu news papers.Writer Safi Ali Azmi http://ummatpublications.com/2009/07/23/page-6.html Daily Ummat Karachi,Urdu news papers.Writer Safi Ali Azmi http://ummatpublications.com/2009/07/09/page-3.html Daily Ummat Karachi,Urdu news papers.Writer Safi Ali Azmi http://ummatpublications.com/2009/07/08/page-3.html They may be relevant sources to be cited, but we'd need an English-language translation of what these articles report - the links were added without any context or explanation. Tschild (talk) 18:20, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅! Mootros (talk) 15:49, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Qualifying features for a murder charge
Hi, the paragraph about the charges now brought forward against the perpetrator reads Prosecutors cited perfidiousness as a qualifying characteristic for the murder charge, motivated by hate against non-Europeans and Muslims. What the source says is "Da beide Opfer nicht mit der Attacke gerechnet hätten, sei das Mordmerkmal der Heimtücke erfüllt. Zudem geht die Staatsanwaltschaft von niedrigen Beweggründen aus und sieht „Hass auf Nichteuropäer und Moslems“ als Motiv des mutmaßlichen Täters. [Because both victims did not expect any attacks, a qualifying feature for murder, perfidiousness, was met. Additionally, the prosecuters assume low motives [or base motives? not sure what the correct translation is] and thinks that 'hate against non-Europeans and Muslims' as the motive of the suspect.] This certainly does not mean that hate was the motive for the perpetrator's perfidousness. In fact, anyone somewhat familar with German legalspeak will know that "niedrigen Beweggründe", "low [or base] motives" is, just like perfidiousness, a qualifying feature for a murder charge. Plus the term is not very common outside jurisprudence. [For a full catalogue of qualifying features for a murder charge, see § 211 StBG. Moreover, if you read the excerpt from the prosecuter's press release available here, it is quite clear that the prosecuters think that perfidousness and the suspect's hatred against non-Europeans and Muslims are both qualifying features for the murder charge. Yaan (talk) 12:30, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clarifying this. Are you saying that Mordmerkmal and Motive are essentially the same, in the sense that a motive has lead to a certain characteristic? How about this?
 * Prosecutors cited perfidiousness and hate against non-Europeans and Muslims as a qualifying characteristic for the murder charge.
 * Any good? Cheers, Mootros (talk) 12:45, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Also you're hinting that niedrige Beweggründe cannot exactly be rendered as perfidiousness. Are there differences in German legal speak? Many thanks! Mootros (talk) 12:55, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, "Mordmerkmal" is "qualifying characteristic for a murder charge" (or "... for murder"). "motive" is my translation of "Beweggründe", "perfidiousness" is "Heimtücke".
 * What they are saying is that they found two distinct qualifying features for a murder charge: one is that the attack was perfidious (attacking the victims when they did not expect any harm), the other one is the lowly motivation of the attack (i.e. hatred against Moslems). If Alex W. had acted less perfidioulsy, it would still be murder because of the nature of his motive. Mercy killings can still be murder if the person killed was not able to defend him- or herself.
 * I just realized that there actually is an english translation of art. 211 available at Murder (with "heimtueckisch" rendered as " treacherously"). Maybe this helps? Regards, Yaan (talk) 13:04, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Very useful! Thank you kindly for this. Mootros (talk) 13:52, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it might not be perfect yet, especially the footnote. What they are saying is that hatred for Muslims is a base motive, not that hatred for Muslims is directly a qualifying characteristic of murder explicitely mentioned in the Strafgesetzbuch. I.e. they cite two, not three, qualifying features. Yaan (talk) 17:17, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, I think "maliciousness" might not be a very good translation for "niedrige Beweggruende". If we can't come up with a satisfying translation, maybe it's better to leave this technical term out and just mention "hatred for Muslims and non-Europeans" or "the nature of the perpetrator's motive" and "perfidiousness". Yaan (talk) 17:33, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * niedere Beweggruende in the sense of Niedertracht is probably best rendered as maliciousness. Nieder as Boese. Now:
 * Prosecutors cited perfidiousness and maliciousness (based on hatred against non-Europeans and Muslims) as qualifying characteristics for the murder charge
 * Am I still missing the point?
 * Yours, Mootros (talk) 17:43, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the proper term we were looking for in common law is malice Mootros (talk) 08:58, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

hatred against non-Europeans and Muslims? There are about 4% foreigner/migrants in Dresden (about 500,000 inhabitants) They are from "Vietnam (1500), Poland (860), Russia (790), Ukraine (630), Portugal (550), Hungary (530), Italy (510) ... and Turkey (500) .. . The chance, to meet a "Muslim" in Dresden is less than 0.1%. He wasn´t able to pay the fine and would be put in prison. I assume, that was the reason why he went Berserker. -- Crato (talk) 00:18, 7 November 2009 (UTC) Of all the groups you listed, only Turks and Vietnamese are correct, because others are other Europeans. Second of all, maybe its a small percentage in Dresden, but muslims are a big problem throughtout all of Germany and the rest of Europe. Norum (talk) 00:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Note on site www.marwaelsherbiny.com
There is a site http://www.marwaelsherbiny.com that (according to the footer) is published by her 'friends and family'. Possibly it will be a source for future family statements etc. I'd like to make a note on one aspect for now: the text on the "What Happened" page contains in part text that is the same, or very similar, to this Wikipedia article. No reason to give them grief about that, but in case anyone should wonder if the Wikipedia page should contain text copied from marwaelsherbiny.com - that's not the case, some passages on WP and marwaelsherbiny.com have wording that I wrote originally on WP. So, WP did not lift text originally contributed to marwaelsherbiny.com - as I said, just in case someone wonders. Tschild (talk) 21:31, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I can confirm this, large parts of this page are copy&pasted from this wikipedia article that User:Tschild primarily has written and I primarily have copy-edited. Mootros (talk) 21:45, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Dear All, I think there is actually a licence issue here. Although I am not entirely sure to what extent the new creative common licence (i.e. CC-BY-SA?) already applies, their site must technically attribute the author. My honourable and learned friend Tschild rightly states that no (additional) grief ought to be given, but I suggest to use the situation constructively and creatively and ask them whether they would release some of their images (i.e.) under a CC-BY-SA licence (if possible), so we can use them. What do people think? Yours, Mootros (talk) 21:56, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Notes: short timeline of trial for further reference
These are short notes for future reference on editing the trial section, taken from news reports Tschild (talk) 18:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

1st week

 * 26 Oct 2009:
 * beginning - defendant makes no opening statement, refuses to state name/DOB - motion to remove judges for bias (denied) - testimony of widower
 * defendant makes no plea http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/6439121/German-man-on-trial-for-courtroom-killing-of-Muslim-woman.html (EN)
 * 27 Oct 2009:
 * testimony of medical examiner http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/deutschland/Marwa-el-Sherbini;art122,2934552 (DE) http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jLVEj9NpxSbA9S_Qg4F4N-S48GCgD9BJFNKO0 (EN)
 * testimony of judge presiding in the 1 July hearing http://www.stern.de/panorama/mordprozess-el-sherbini-ich-dachte-er-sticht-mich-ab-1517417.html (DE) http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/292038,judge-describes-courtroom-murder-of-egyptian-woman--summary.html (EN) (almost verbatim report at http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0,1518,657705-2,00.html (DE) ) http://www.stern.de/panorama/2-mordprozess-in-dresden-die-ohnmacht-des-richters-1517577.html (DE) http://www.taz.de/1/politik/deutschland/artikel/1/%5Cich-dachte-es-sind-faeuste%5C/ (DE)
 * overview http://www.dresden-fernsehen.de/default.aspx?ID=6090&showNews=560976
 * 28 Oct 2009:
 * Delay for medical exam of defendant on his request - temper tantrum by defendant http://www.thelocal.de/society/20091028-22879.html (EN)
 * court-appointed counsel of 1 July testifies; ; clearer details of son's cause of injury; inconsistency whether appealed the verdict aimed at a custodial sentence http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/Marwa-el-Sherbini-Dresden;art771,2935465 (DE)
 * http://www.dresden-fernsehen.de/default.aspx?ID=7711&showNews=561522
 * 29 Oct 2009:
 * four witnesses http://www.zeit.de/newsticker/2009/10/29/iptc-hfk-20091029-19-22827928xml (DE)
 * one lay judge (Schöffe); clearer details of son's cause of injury; up to nine prison officers restrain defendant http://newsticker.welt.de/index.php?channel=ver&module=dpa&id=22818980 (DE) -
 * a social worker; family seeks redress outside trial: http://www.zeit.de/newsticker/2009/10/29/iptc-bdt-20091029-119-22830802xml (DE)
 * a court security officer (at the end of http://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/artikel.asp?id=2302147 (DE) )
 * judge in the first defamation trial in 2008 (at the end of http://www.lvz-online.de/aktuell/content/115372.html (DE) )
 * 12 of 23 witnesses heard up to now. Defendant has remained silent and displayed "unconstructive behaviour" in the dock http://www.lvz-online.de/aktuell/content/115463.html (DE)

2nd week

 * 2 Nov 2009:
 * good overview http://www.kanal8.de/default.aspx?ID=1781&showNews=563771 (DE)
 * http://www.dresden-fernsehen.de/default.aspx?ID=7711&showNews=563771 (DE)
 * Mother called as witness, refusal http://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/6823495.html (DE)
 * interview with mother; her version about what happened on playground http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/2009/11/01/marwa-mutter-des-moerders/spricht-ueber-ihren-sohn-und-ihre-scham.html (DE)
 * http://www.faz.net/s/Rub77CAECAE94D7431F9EACD163751D4CFD/Doc~ED94718C259CA4529B8125578588AA10F~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html (DE)
 * Witness on defendant's previous violence threats http://www.zeit.de/newsticker/2009/11/2/iptc-bdt-20091101-259-22864736xml (DE)
 * 3 Nov 2009:
 * police officers responding on 1 July http://newsticker.welt.de/?module=dpa&id=22879428 (DE) http://www.focus.de/panorama/vermischtes/mordprozess-marwa-el-sherbini-bundespolizisten-verteidigen-die-tat-ihres-kollegen-vor-gericht_aid_450677.html http://www.die-newsblogger.de/dresden-fall-marwa-el-sherbini-polizei-konnte-tater-und-opfer-nicht-unterscheiden-32490 (DE) http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1511152.php/Courtroom-murder-of-Egyptian-woman-wanted-to-die-Roundup (EN)
 * defendant's mother restates refusal to testify; no response from sister (who would also have the right to refuse) yet http://www.focus.de/panorama/welt/kopftuch-prozess-messerstecher-forderte-todesschuss_aid_450691.html (DE)
 * 4 Nov 2009:
 * defendant now makes statement, admits deed http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0,1518,659258,00.html (de) http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/293217,dresden-attacker-denies-killing-of-egyptian-woman-was-racist-act.html (en)
 * 5 Nov 2009: Psychiatric expert witness testifies in nonpublic session; full criminal responsibility http://www.focus.de/panorama/welt/prozesse-gutachter-alex-w-ist-schuldfaehig_aid_451342.html - seems there are no further witnesses; final speeches of prosecution, co-plaintiff's lawyers and defence to be made 9 and 10 November. http://www.faz.net/s/Rub77CAECAE94D7431F9EACD163751D4CFD/Doc~E36D7C153CC7B46F2A9C8D8DC66AAADA2~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html?rss_googlenews

3rd week

 * 9 Nov 2009:
 * closing arguments of prosecution and co-plaintiff; requested document from Russia arrives http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0,1518,660269,00.html
 * 10 Nov 2009:
 * 11 Nov 2009: (last session date scheduled at present; verdict expected for this date)
 * Thanks! Very useful. Cheers, Mootros (talk) 07:22, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Very useful. Cheers, Mootros (talk) 07:22, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Not dated/ general

 * judge, Birgit Wiegand, quoting defendant's xenophobic letter appealing against fine: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/30/dresden-courtroom-killing-trial (EN)
 * Al Ahram Weekly on mainly first week of trial http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2009/971/eg10.htm (en)
 * opinion piece on concert cancellation http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2009/971/op4.htm (en)
 * Some more; may come in handy. Mootros (talk) 15:13, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Comments (widower is suing the police officer)
Under the actual murder it says that the husband is suing the police officer who shot him because he thought he was the aggressor based solely on the fact that he was an Arab and Wiens was white. Well source 11 is a German article that supposedly claims the husband is suing said police officer but when I translated and read it, there was no such claim at all. If it is the case that this officer is being sued, then we need a real source, preferably an english one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.28.57.38 (talk) 20:30, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * That's why we must check all the sources carefully. There are always a lot of sensationalists who try to start rumors about how racist and evil everyone is. It's like it became a fashion. --131.188.3.20 (talk) 23:04, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * There is no claim that I can see to effect that "the husband is suing the police officer who shot him because he thought he was the aggressor based solely on the fact that he was an Arab and Wiens was white.". It just says the police officer is under criminal investigation i.e. not the subject of a lawsuit (need to upddate article later with sources on the second week of the murder trial - they say the criminal investigation was ongoing then). Not unusual in the circumstances - investigations against police officers in Germany who shot someone do tend to take several months or longer. Claims of racism were made by family members in Egypt if I recollect correctly from the sources, not by the husband Tschild (talk) 13:20, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The original source's content seems to have changed (same URL but different title - now covers indictment but not investigation of police officer). Have replaced it in that instance with a source from November. Tschild (talk) 13:46, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * This is the source of the family member making the claim. Mootros (talk) 22:21, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Comments (point of length of article)
Isn't it absurd and oversensational to dedicate such a large article to this? Christian minorities are being killed in arab countries under much worse circumstances, yet it barely gets mentioned. Also, the WikiPedia article on the Fort Hood shooting where an Arab shot a bunch of white people is clinically censored of any mention of racism? Where is the balance? 93.161.107.118 (talk) 14:55, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * If Christiam minorities "are being killed in arab countries under much worse circumstances" feel free to post your SOURCED articles to wikipedia regarding them. As to the Fort Hood shooting, since it is so recent they are still looking into Hassan's motivations, so that might be why it is currently not mentioning racism.  Otherwise, in my opinion it is not "absurd and oversensational" to have this article, and the length of the article is dictated by the complexity of the case and the amount of source material available.  Therefore I don't feel it is overly long. AngelSG (talk) 20:26, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Dear 93.161.107.118, has it perhaps occurred to you that this article might also have been written in response to a person being killed in a court of law in a country that calls itself Rechtsstaat (that means the rule of law is the highest principle there.) Perhaps has it even --to your possible surprised-- occurred to you that some of the main contributors of this article are Christians or White Anglo-Saxon Protestants (or whatever label stands fit)? 22:34, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Much worse things happen against christians all over the muslim world but you don't cover it to this extent. Regarding law and order, I believe most countries call themselves similarly, including muslim countries. Germany is not special in that manner, in my country we call it 'retsstat'. It's used in several european countries besides Germany. But yes you are right, some of the most fierce pro-islamists are actually white people that act out of mistaken 'tolerance' which is in fact intolerance to non-muslim people. These people are often activists that are ready to spend large amounts of time on opinion forming webpages such as WikiPedia. This explains why I and other non-activists have given up contributing, simply because we would get reverted immidiately and we don't have the time to monitor the pages 24-7. Feel free to continue making WikiPedia more and more unbalanced but you will be removing yourself from the rest of the population :) 93.161.107.118 (talk) 11:30, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Please try to focus the discussion more on the article itself. I.e. which part is unbalanced? And also be bold and DO contribute to or create other article that deal with atrocities against Christians, but make sure you stick to criteria for notability. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a means for instigating things that are not (widely) known in themselves. Thank you for you effort and consideration. Mootros (talk) 15:49, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

--131.188.3.21 (talk) 13:24, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Much worse things happen against christians all over the muslim world but you don't cover it to this extent.

If you feel there are specific, notable incidents covered by reliable sources, which do not currently have articles, please feel free to create them. --ElijahOmega (talk) 18:26, 13 November 2009 (UTC) You know just as well as I that due to the sheer numbers of activists with an agenda patrolling WikiPedia, such an article would get censored or politically corrected immidiately. The average person is chanceless here and would be bullied out. It would require several people with significant spare time to be able to contribute something, the discussions on the talk pages alone would take full time work defending against the PC hordes. WikiPedia is heavily dominated by people with a political correctness agenda, just look at something like this --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Discrimination How on Earth could you let WikiPedia become driven by political ideologies and agendas like this? The so called neutral point of view is a joke LOL, there is no hope left for wikipedia unless you get radically cleaned up. I think it's very sad that WikiPedia got hijacked like this but I suppose it was predictable... 93.161.106.23 (talk) 20:50, 14 November 2009 (UTC) : There is an article on Persecution of Christians. Feel free to expand on it (with reliable, notable sources) if you feel it is lacking.
 * I remain rather bewildered by your use of the word "you," since you are as capable of editing wikipedia as any of the people you rail against.
 * As regards your claims of some sort of agenda, I would ask you to please assume good faith in other editors.
 * None of this, however, has anything to do with this article, which is the purpose of this talk page. ElijahOmega (talk) 07:40, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Please try to focus on this article. Mootros (talk) 10:51, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

"Other developments" section
I have removed the following part from the article, as I think it is a minor detail to the murder case that is not directly related. It has also sensational connotations. Mootros (talk) 23:33, 12 November 2009 (UTC) On 1 November 2009, the newspaper Bild published a statement by Alex Wiens' mother about her son, stating that he was particularly distressed by his victim being pregnant and that he did not want to live. She expressed her regret for the suffering of the victim's family. Her son, who had not made a statement at this point, reacted angrily, delaying the trial.

Redress
I've read that the court permitted Adhäsionsantrag ( i.e. § 406 StPO) which means that the claimant can ask for redress without Zivilklage (i.e. civil code case). How about we put this in the redress section and not in the main crimical trial section? Any takers? Any suggestions? Mootros (talk) 15:37, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Possibly but I personally would wait for a source that mentions this part but also that this is a symbolic part of the sentence as the defendant is indigent. 109.84.40.96 (talk) 09:26, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

❌ [Criticism of the law against insults?]
Has the case led to any reevaluation of whether a law against insults is really such a good thing? The plan was to lay a fine to keep a nut from yelling nasty things... now a woman is dead. Did anyone there notice that censorship doesn't actually work? Wnt (talk) 21:24, 13 November 2009 (UTC) :Of course it doesn't work. Haven't you noticed that fighting with the current ridiculous aggression about racism actually increases racism instead of stopping it? If someone is not white (or is Jewish), you are not even allowed to criticize him, because you will be labeled as racist. This is actually used by a lot of criminals to commit even more crimes without fear of punishment... so people will hate them even more. Of course racism is a bad thing, but balance please, balance. However, Wikipedia is not a forum, so it's the place to discuss about it. We should only try to build an encyclopedia. And very often do we have to fight against sensationalism flowing through from mainstream media. Lot of articles are very skewed and currently I don't see much chance to stop ninja editors for example, who hunt for any article about something not liberal enough, and transform it so that it's just a few sentences about the topic itself, and hundreds of lines about who criticized it (even if they are just some unknown bloggers or journalists), and how evil it is. And, of course, try to find at least one word of criticism about articles from the opposite side. Even about anarchy. Nope. I'm sorry I went through all of this, I just wanted to answer your question... and maybe to tell those who have the editing style described above, and do it in a good faith, thinking they are fighting for a good cause: if you fight too harsh against racism, you will increase and indirectly encourage racism. By fighting too harsh against antisemitism, you will increase antisemitism, and make even more people believe in conspiracy theories. --131.188.3.21 (talk) 22:37, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not a forum. --ElijahOmega (talk) 22:57, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course it's not a forum. However, when the subject is about something not libertarian enough, then wikipedia IS a forum, and all can brag about how the article is presented in right-extremist point of view (even if every second sentence is about how this or that criticized the subjects as being evil fascists). This is what I wanted to point out, as it's becoming a real problem, and because of this less and less people take Wikipedia seriously and more and more regard it as some sort of propaganda for some silly conspiracy theories. But as both us us said, it's not a forum, so I'll stop here and now. I think we should discuss this at the village pump in more detail. Any ideas where else? --131.188.3.21 (talk) 11:09, 14 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Mootros (talk) 02:55, 14 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, I understand striking through the first paragraph, you are absolutely right. But when you accuse me of something and don't let me answer the accusations, that would be a very unethical and disruptive behavior. Please reconsider the difference between moderating out a discussion based on the principles of Wikipedia, and moderating out based on whether you agree with it or not. --131.188.3.21 (talk) 12:31, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I should note that the short question I asked to begin this section was in fact a question - whether my reaction was represented in German-language sources or not. I say it is necessary to summarize a point of view in order to ask about it.  I unstrike this in protest. Wnt (talk) 16:38, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Box: List of controversies related to Islam and Muslims
According to this article: "Controversy is a state of prolonged public dispute or debate, usually concerning a matter of opinion..."

How can the murder of a person be a controversy? Disallowing to wear certain clothing may be controversial as a reaction to a murder would surely lead to a controversy. Similarly how can a reaction to a crime be a state of prolonged public dispute or debate. There is a difference between matter of opinion and prolonged public dispute. There is no evidence that the killing of El-Sherbini has resulted in a prolonged public dispute about cross-cultural communication. Or is there? In other words, what precisely is the dispute or debate in question? Mootros (talk) 08:29, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I think some Egyptians were disappointed about the rather moot reactions in Germany. I think in Egypt this was perceived as, roughly, "they are killing our women because they are muslim", while in Germany it was more often perceived as "one immigrant killing another one" or, at best, "another Russian criminal". I don't think there was much debate within either society, though. Yaan (talk) 09:09, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Note 5: Practising law in Germany
Practising law in Germany, following EU regulations, fully-qualified lawyers from other EU countries, under certain circumstances, can represent clients in courts in Germany, whereas lawyers from non-EU countries can merely give legal advice but not represent in court.

I know this comes directly from one newpaper article and this was added hastaly on request of a reviewer who wanted clarification as to why there were French and Egyptian lawyers in court, but:

Does anyone know what EU regulations are these and more importantly what German legislation do enshrine them? Or is this merely a case of lawyers making a defacto case on the EU regulations in the absence of national law? Also the mentioned distinction of representing and practising strikes me as unusual for the German context. Anyone, any idea? Many thanks, Mootros (talk) 10:51, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Some starting point here http://www.kostenlose-urteile.de/EuGH-zur-Zulassung-von-Buergern-anderer-EU-Staaten-zum-deutschen-Rechtsreferendariat.news8912.htm


 * Maybe the relevant German regulation is No. 138/3 StPO? I am no lawyer, so I can only guess. Yaan (talk) 09:02, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Very useful. Mootros (talk) 21:19, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I've made some progress on the issues too. Some brainstorming, for the time being. Further comments welcome:


 * Directive 2005/36/EC on Professional qualifications
 * Distinction between something called außergerichtliche Rechtsdienstleistungen [outside-court] and Rechtsdienstleistungen im gerichtlichen Verfahren [related to court procedures]. The former is nationally regulated by Rechtsdienstleistungsgesetz and the latter by different types of Prozessordnung depending on area of law (e.g criminal or private law).

And here the new version:

In Germany, anyone can give legal advice [Rechtsbeistand] if: (i) advice is given free of charge to a person who is a member of one's family, a neighbour, or a person of close personal relationship, or if (ii) advice is given free of charge under the supervision of a person who has certain qualifications or permissions (Rechtsdienstleistungsgesetz 2008 § 6). Legally representing someone in a criminal trail in a court in Germany requires a relevant German legal qualification (i.e. Befähigung zum Richteramt), or a specific permission of the court in question (Strafprozeßordnung 1987 § 138).

✅ Mootros (talk) 22:56, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Request for copy editing
The article is currently under review for FA. It has been suggested to copy edit it to 'fix grammar and punctuation problems' Please let me know if you are willing to undertake this. Many thanks! Mootros (talk) 08:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Should be OK now, more or less. Mootros (talk) 13:25, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Rejected BGH appeal
I have removed the translation of offensichtlich unbegründet "justification" for the rejection decision as stated in the press. The court's document should be out within a few days here: http://juris.bundesgerichtshof.de/cgi-bin/rechtsprechung/list.py?Gericht=bgh&Art=en&Datum=Aktuell&Sort=12288

Mootros (talk)
 * ✅ Mootros (talk) 07:04, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Useful citation: November regional court verdict and prayers outside court
http://www.rp-online.de/panorama/deutschland/justiz/Lebenslang-fuer-Mord-im-Gerichtssaal_aid_870971.html
 * Thanks! Useful. Mootros (talk) 06:15, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

July 2013: links to recent events
http://www.lto.de/recht/nachrichten/n/mord-lg-dresden-aegypterin-un-anti-rassismus-ausschuss/ http://www.focus.de/regional/sachsen/prozesse-familie-von-getoeteter-aegypterin-legt-beschwerde-bei-un-ein_aid_1033564.html http://www.dnn-online.de/dresden/web/dresden-nachrichten/detail/-/specific/Familie-von-in-Dresden-getoeteter-aegypterin-Marwa-legt-Beschwerde-bei-UN-ein-45121164

Looking for English sources at the moment and waiting what transpires from this complaint. Mootros (talk) 15:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

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Linking to corresponding German article
Seems like it would be a good idea for this page to link to the corresponding German Wikipedia page. However the German page is not de:Ermordung_von_Marwa_El-Sherbini, but de:Marwa_El-Sherbini. I tried to add the link under Languages in the left-hand column, but the wikidata page seems not to want to allow me to generate the link, given the different approaches to naming the article in the two languages.

For the time being I've placed a link in the lead after El-Sherbini's name. Perhaps someone more experienced can come up with a better solution. - Aingotno (talk) 15:28, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I requested the two wikidata entries be merged, if and when that is complete the interwiki link will show up on the sidebar.  nableezy  - 16:40, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * and done. removed from opening sentence now too.  nableezy  - 18:21, 30 March 2019 (UTC)