Talk:Poppy Meadow

Poppy's duration?
She left in November 2011, and returned in 2012, regardless of whether she is staying long term or not shouldn't her duration read 2011– rather than showing two seperate years, it's not like Amira Masood, who left in early 2010, returned in late 2011, if Poppys durtion is to show two different years, then shouldn't that apply to characters like Janet Mitchell who havn't been seen in ages? Livin&#39;InAGhostTown (talk) 20:11, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The original consensus was that if a character has not been on-screen for more than one calender year, for example, leaves in May 2009 and returns June 2010, then the duration would read . If the character left in May 2009 and returns in March 2010, then the duration will remain . So You're right, Poppy's duration should read . George Ping!   20:39, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * A calender year doesn't mean 12 months. It means (for example) a character could join in January 2009, leave in January 2010, then rejoin in December 2011, and we'd still put . Some people have since disagreed with this. But as for Poppy, she was away for less than 12 months, so let's stick to . – anemone projectors – 09:48, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Reception material in the lead?
I would move most of the second para of the lead into the Reception section and replace it with a summary. --John (talk) 19:27, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * In the absence of any dissent here, I went ahead and trimmed it slightly. --John (talk) 21:40, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I see an IP restored the material I removed without a rationale. Does anybody mind if I restore my edit? --John (talk) 16:17, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Not me. Malleus Fatuorum 17:29, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Tense?
When recounting the plot details, should we use present or past tense? At the moment it is a bit of a mixture. --John (talk) 10:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It should be present!! Bleaney (talk) 11:56, 20 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, it should be the literary present tense. Malleus Fatuorum 17:30, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Congratulations
Possibly the worst featured article that has ever been posted on the main page. Just lists and lists of five identical quotes from critics saying they don't like her, then five quotes saying she's ditzy, and then five quotes saying they like her after she returned. All the quotes are from UK tabloid 'last night's TV' reviews and are totally redundant; there aren't any academic references or anything else that gives more information than what some critic thought of her.

Having read an entire featured article about this character I still have no idea what her character is actually like. I know the critics think she's 'ditzy', but there isn't a single example of things she says or things she does (the copy and paste from the BBC website could be anyone in a soap opera) to give a non-viewer an insight into her personality.

I accept that Wikipedia is always going to get filled with cruft, but how on earth did it get onto the Main Page? --86.167.46.90 (talk) 07:22, 1 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The same way that arseholes like you are allowed to rant on editor's talk pages. Malleus Fatuorum 07:45, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * They did? Anyway, dear IP - coming here and rubbishing the work of dedicated editors is not going to make you any friends around here. If you feel that there is something amiss or incorrect in the article, you should bring it up in a constructive manner; as this is the spirit of the project. --Τασουλα (talk) 13:25, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I love it that this is a FA and on the main page today! It's such a gender gap thing! I think that anytime this project can focus on female-oriented topics like soaps is positive.  It's also positive that with this article, the amount of soap character articles that are FAs are now doubled, to two.  (Pauline Fowler, also from EastEnders, is the other one.)  I've reviewed a few soap character articles, so I'm happy to see that some of my issues with these articles don't seem to exist here--long, redundant, storyline sections, OR, weak prose.  Nice job, and keep it up! Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:17, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That's so true! Are there really only 2 FAs for soap characters?! I think we need some more! – anemone projectors – 13:29, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's right. I agree; I'm seriously considering tackling Todd Manning myself. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:07, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Em dash vs en dash
Not wanting to get into an edit war, it's in the template documentation Template:Infobox soap character 2. I am sure it used to be in the MOS somewhere, I've looked in all the appropriate places, so I'm either wrong or it has been removed. That would imply that there is no rule. Therefore we should probably be consistent with other articles, which all use the em dash. – anemone projectors – 12:52, 3 August 2012 (UTC)


 * What it implies to me is that the documentation for the template ought to be updated and that other articles ought to be made consistent with this one, which is after all one of only two FAs on soap characters. Had there been a problem with dash usage no doubt it would have been raised at the recent FAC. Malleus Fatuorum 14:24, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay then, I think you might find that's standard for all soap articles. See: Ian Beale, Derek Branning, Billy Mitchell, Kat Slater, Mo Harris, Patrick Trueman, Alfie Moon, Jean Slater and Zainab Masood. This is just few of the many articles in the EastEnders WikiProject that have this dash. Look at other articles such as Coronation Street and Hollyoaks. Pages such as: Carmel McQueen, George Smith, Cindy Cunningham, Dodger Savage, Audrey Roberts, Gail Platt, Carla Connor, Michelle Connor and all the others. The em dash should be used. I know you say that the use of this dash in dates cannot be found in the MoS, but where is the use of the en dash for dates in the MoS? George Ping!   17:52, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't care about "the standard for all soap articles", which isn't any kind of standard at all, as they're mostly crap. Malleus Fatuorum 18:02, 3 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I think I may have been the one who first suggested changing the emdash to an endash in the infobox. My copy of The Chicago Manual of Style says to use an endash for an unfinished date range. I didn't see anything about which dash to use in an unfinished range it in my copy of New Hart's Rules or our WP:MOS (although I may have overlooked it). What is the reasoning behind the use of the emdash there? Mark Arsten (talk) 19:02, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Admittedly, I prefer to use the en dash and do so regularly in the articles I edit or improve to GA status. I don't think there is a standard for all soap opera articles or if there is, then surely it should be mentioned at WP:SOAPS? - JuneGloom    Talk  19:23, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

For reference – Manual of Style/Dates and numbers : This is followed by: Manual of Style/Dates and numbers : The separator for date or numerical ranges is always an en dash. An em dash is only used to punctuate sentences as described at WP:EMDASH: Hope that clarifies the MOS guidance. --RexxS (talk) 21:20, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
 * "The two dates are separated by an en dash (HTML code: ).  When either date contains a space, the en dash is preceded by a space (preferably a non-breaking space, code:  ) and followed by a space."
 * "Dates that are given as ranges should follow the same patterns as given above for birth and death dates."
 * "Dashes are often used to mark divisions within a sentence: in pairs (parenthetical dashes, instead of parentheses or pairs of commas); or singly (perhaps instead of a colon). They may also indicate an abrupt stop or interruption, in reporting direct speech."
 * Makes no sense that this character doesn't follow what every other character does. Stupid as well.Arsenalfan24 (talk) 21:45, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * What makes no sense is that you're apparently unable to understand what makes sense. Malleus Fatuorum 00:20, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The fact of the matter is that the en dash is used for date ranges everywhere else in Wikipedia. I must ask what value you can find in using an em dash for ranges solely in soap character articles and nowhere else? I've raised the issue at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers, where you are welcome to explain why one small class of articles should pick a different convention from every other article. --RexxS (talk) 20:39, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * @Malleus If you've got nothing positive to contribute, don't bother at all. Grow up, instead of trying to provoke hostility. @RexxS Poppy Meadow doesn't follow what every other EastEnders character does - Ian Beale, Sharon Watts etc all use the other dash. If this has been changed, why doesn't that? All I'm simply saying is that if we're going to be consistent, why don't the other characters follow the same suit?Arsenalfan24 (talk) 17:34, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * You've got that arse about face, but no matter. That other articles are incorrect doesn't mean that this one should also be incorrect. So why not go fix those other articles yourself? Malleus Fatuorum
 * Because that's a complete waste of my time. Arsenalfan24 (talk) 17:50, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * My take on the specific issue you raise is that the plural of anecdote is not data. You quote a short list of EastEnders characters as if the format used therein represents something significant. I see there are 854 pages in the Category:EastEnders characters. Whereas there are articles on Wikipedia, and the MOS covers them all. I still can't see why you are applying for an exemption for the 0.02% of all articles which happen to belong to one small category. --RexxS (talk) 18:11, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * @RexxS I don't know why you are making these assumptions for. I haven't stated anywhere that I am for or against this dash change. Frankly, I don't care what dash is used, I just think there should be consistency on the pages. That's why I say it's 'stupid' because this page uses something separate to all the others in the EastEnders branch.Arsenalfan24 (talk) 18:22, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that all the other EE articles need correcting, not this one. It won't take long, since the current characters are the only ones using the em dash in the infobox. I'll raise the issue at WP:EE first though, before changing anything. - JuneGloom    Talk  19:50, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Apologies for my assumptions. I think the bit where you stated "Makes no sense that this character doesn't follow what every other character does. Stupid as well" must have led me to deduce that you wanted to change this character, rather than all the others. Cheers, --RexxS (talk) 20:01, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The evidence of the article history makes it very clear that he does want to change this article, not the others. Malleus Fatuorum 20:34, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * It hardly seems worth anybody getting upset about. It seems like the solution will be to change the other articles to be consistent with this one, rather than vice versa. --John (talk) 20:12, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation
Does anyone think a disambiguation link may be needed in this article? Along the lines of...

? – anemone projectors – 14:23, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Err. I dont think so, well in the sense that ive never heard the term 'poppy meadow' being used in any other context apart from the character. Its not like 'Hay Meadow', 'buttercup meadow' or even 'wild flower medow' which I have heard. then again others may have heard the expression used. Bleaney (talk) 14:29, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well I have seen a poppy meadow, if that helps. (I'm going to create a redirect for Poppy Meadows, because that's what Dot called her, and I saw someone on Twitter saying that didn't know Poppy's last name until then) – anemone projectors – 14:50, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, ive seen a 'fat boy' before, but im guessing we dont have disambiguate Arthur's page lol Bleaney (talk) 14:58, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No, because it's already at Fatboy (EastEnders), being linked on the disambiguation page Fat Boy. So that's different. – anemone projectors – 10:00, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not think it really needs disambiguation. But I have heard of a Poppy meadow before. Much prefer the hatnote over moving though, which should not happen. But you can seem an editor making the change somewhere down the line. Rain  the 1  12:32, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * We definitely don't need a page move for a disambiguation page! I just wonder if anyone's ever typed in "poppy meadow" hoping for a field of poppies, on Wikipedia or anywhere else. Google Images, for example, brings up many flower images before the character. Maybe I'll ask at WikiProject Disambiguation. – anemone projectors – 13:39, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Came here from disambiguation page. No, I don't think you need a dab page - we don't have an article about poppy meadows, which is the purpose of DAB pages. If someone wants a poppy, they will type "poppy".--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:21, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah you're probably right. It was just a random thought I had anyway, because a poppy meadow is a thing. – anemone projectors – 20:43, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

The only thing I could think of that could possibly need a disambiguation is In Flanders Field, where the poppies grow, between the crosses row on row - but even that is a ridiculous stretch. Ego White Tray (talk) 20:05, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There are lots of cases where the title of a book, album, etc has a "real-life" meaning, but we don't provide a dab link unless there is an article on that topic. It's the same sort of thing here, where someone's name happens to be interpretable as a real-life thing, but we don't have an article so don't need a hatnote or dab page. Pam  D  10:24, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. – anemone projectors – 14:24, 7 April 2013 (UTC)