Talk:Prem Rawat

Subpages

 * This talk page contains numerous non-archive subpages involving past disagreements, including: /Bio, /Bio proposal, /Bio proposal/talk, /Bio proposal nr2, /Bio proposal nr2/talk, /Comments, /GA Review March 07, /GA review 1, /Teachings, /Teachings (draft), /criticism, /lead, /temp1
 * Sources: /scholars, /journalists, /WIGMJ, /First person accounts, /Lifestyle, /Bibliography, /mahatmas, /Leader of
 * Reference quotations removed from inline cites: /References
 * Related talk of a merged page: Talk:Criticism of Prem Rawat

I think this article could be much better in terms of communication
I think this article seems to be written by someone who is speed blind and too involved in the movement himself (I also have the knowledge). One gets the impression that this is a manifestation of a person and the detailed descriptions of his activities are too detailed, and not the right communicative details. An external reader cannot get the information, it is drowned in all the internal excited views (nothing wrong to be excited but should be on the right channels, here it stops people from finding Rawat), which is of no external interest.

The article must have an outsider perspective (insiders already know everything), conveying the basics to someone from the outside looking for information. The author must ask the question what the article is really supposed to convey. I think it should focus on the person, his message, forms and reception.
 * Regarding eras, one must see that the breaking points are 1971 (move to the USA), 1983 (reorganization) and 2010 (shift of center of gravity).
 * The article also misses that most of the followers and the most respected social position are in India and still are, so much so that he is featured as a public celebrity on state Indian TV talk shows. Nothing compares to his public appearances in India.
 * I think Swedish Wikipedia has a good article, main content and layout. (Read the Swedish article with Google translate). and the English should be given a better form.

English Wikipedia usually has longer and more detailed articles, but at the end this one may have large parts of the existing article as an in-depth section where it describes his more detailed activities over the years. Zzalpha (talk) 18:31, 13 November 2022 (UTC)


 * There are no outsider perspectives on the experience of your "self".
 * With respect to outsider perspectives about the article, what would be the point of anybody's opinion without intrinsic experience, "knowledge", to do with Prem Rawat's claims of one's inner divinity? The assertion that"(insiders already know everything)" is neither true nor is it an objective observation. Tony Rodi (talk) 01:01, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The statement "There are no outsider perspectives on the experience of your "self"." is not compatible with the Wikipedia mission and that does not mean there should not be any arenas for that perspective, but not here.
 * The Wikipedia main target point is the outsider perspectives to get knowledge about things they haven't experienced. Something we that are experienced with can initiate them to and lead them to where to get the deeper knowledge. Rawat is not on stage to know himself, he is there for you, so is Wikipedia? Zzalpha (talk) 22:46, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Am I still blocked? MOMENTO (talk) 08:57, 26 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Apparently not. MOMENTO (talk) 08:59, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Cut the crap
I think the English article is too long and detailed and should be broken up and linked to make it more accessible. It is not books but digital media that we have the opportunities to use.
 * The problem is that if a completely uninitiated person comes and reads, they cannot catch the main features of what should be in the same article. It is completely irrelevant where Preem Rawat was when and where on various occasions and what quarrels took place. It should be possible to get a picture of who Preem Rawat is in 1 minute if you read here.
 * No, the article about Preem Rawat should be about the person Preem Rawat, what his message is and a list of the organizations he represented and what significance he has, e.g. that he is so big in India that he is on public service talk shows as a celebrity ( which would never happen in the West). The organizations, events and controversies, Hans Maharaj and one on DLM shall be u sub-articles.
 * The History section should form its own article, a pain in the ass to read. It is enough to write

History
Distinctive is the organizational dynamics. The movement initially started as a regular sect organization, to later exclusively use modern communication technology such as aerial and video communication, DVD and later internet video-streaming for followers' direct contact with Rawat. Since the 1980s, the movement's meditation techniques are taught only by Rawat himself.

Origin
The Divine Light Mission was a neo-spiritual Indian movement, founded by the Hindu Guru Shri Hans Ji Maharaj in India in the 1920s.

Prem Rawat's father Guru Shri Hans Ji Maharaj died in 1966, when Rawat was 8 years old, and his mother took over the organizational leadership of the traditional Indian Divine Light Mission. Rawat had been trained to carry on the business as its guru[10].

From Indian cult organization to the international media community
During the 1960s, Americans visiting India came into contact with the movement and created the first group of Divine Light Mission outside India. In 1971, Rawat came to the United States and after a disagreement with his mother, Rawat leads the movement internationally and has built an organization with the same model as in India. The core of the Divine Light Missions was the clear hierarchical organization with the Ashraman at the center which spread internationally during the 1970s. Meditation techniques and teaching were done by the organization through its representatives.

During the 1980s, the entire international Divine Light Mission organization was dismantled and its Ashrama was closed by Rawat and in 1983 was replaced by the Elan Vital movement which is based on the use of modern technology. The dissolution of the international Divine Light Mission organization was confusing to many involved in the movement's organization.

In 2001, he founded The Prem Rawat Foundation to fund his work and humanitarian efforts.

In April 2010, the Elan Vital website announced that it had stopped collecting donations and would cease operations in 2010, to continue in the form of Words of Peace Global (WOPG), the international charitable foundation promoting Rawat's message of peace and tranquility.

Rawat still tours globally with his private plane.

Rawat's movement is basically fee-free and is financed exclusively by voluntary contributions, and so is his personal household. Rawat has been known for luxury cars and private jets, given to him by wealthy supporters.

Teachings
Rawat's teachings are about personal peace, as opposed to stress and frustration, as a path to a good life and more peace on earth. This is achieved through enlightenment and self-understanding, but also through meditation techniques.

The meditation technique "knowledge" is mantra-free and instead focuses on the breath, what you see when you close your eyes, natural tinnitus and the taste on the tongue, through techniques taught by Rawat[2]. The technique is also called "yoga of the sound current"[3]. It is a meditation technique originating in Sant Mat[4] which was a spiritual movement in the Indian subcontinent during the 13th-17th centuries AD according to J. Gordon Melton, Lucy DuPertuis, and Vishal Mangalwadi, but is contested by Ron Geaves. [5][6][7][8].

Teaching is based on the discovery of personal resources such as inner strength, choice, appreciation and hope.[9]

Rawat adapted the movement to Western conditions, but retained the movement's message and mission.

Still India has the most followers
In India, Rawat has held many gigantic outdoor mass meetings over the years. Large parts of what Rawat publishes are published in Hindi, for example videos on YouTube, among others. The Indian operation is a mixture of the global media later form of Rawat's operation and its original forms in India.

Rawat is so well known in India that, for example, Doordarshan (DD), which is an Indian public service company owned by the Indian state[11], has an interview program with him[12].

Family
Rawat's brother Satpal Maharaj, also known as Shri Satpal Ji Maharaj, is an Indian politician and spiritual master. He is the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Irrigation in the Government of the Indian state of Uttarakhand. - This makes it easier for outsiders to keep track of what is what and who is really who. The articles will be much easier to read. In the same way, I think that if you want to go into lots of details about Preem Rawat's world and events, you should do a special deep dive in an article under the heading "Prem Rawat's teachings and activities". Zzalpha (talk) 22:34, 12 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Any content needs, above anything else, to cite sources. In most cases, sources independent of Rawat himself. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:58, 12 April 2023

I guess, the article looks the way it does because it has been an embittered battlefield of antagonism of two parties over a very long time. Almost every word had to be fought over, resulting in a sort of trench-mentality and leaving a trail of debris all over the place. I would also very much welcome a knowledgeable author to condense the whole thing. I'm afraid the veterans of that edit-war might feel too exasperated to face that project!Rainer P. (talk) 18:04, 17 April 2023 (UTC)


 * I'd have to suggest that all the evidence points to trench warfare having declined somewhat over recent years. Possibly as a side effect of something else that I've noted: Rawat simply isn't attracting the media and/or academic attention he used to. This does perhaps unbalance the article in as much as it dwells to a large extent on the drama of his earlier years, but there really isn't a great deal we can do about that, if the article is to comply with policies regarding sourcing, neutrality etc. We have to base article content on what independent sources have to say about a subject, and if such sources have focussed on the drama that brought world-wide fame/notoriety to Rawat, rather than his rather more mellow recent life, that is what we have to work with. And no, it isn't Wikipedia's job to turn this article (a biography of an individual who has attracted much controversy, along with adoration) into a platform for explaining/promoting his 'teachings' in depth. If people want that, such material is easily found elsewhere on the web. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:26, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with the comments on the discussion thread I created for this article, it smacks of a war in article writing until the article is completely unreadable. This is not Wikipedia's policy and the article should be rewritten and then protected, as one protects articles about Jesus, the Bible, etc. Protection_policy Zzalpha (talk) 23:27, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * This article currently has the same level of semi-protection as our articles on Jesus and the Bible. As for rewriting it, you are welcome to make proposals, like any other contributor. They must, however, comply with Wikipedia policies. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:36, 29 April 2023 (UTC)