Talk:Qibla

Archive One

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2019 and 16 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Nicklumalcuri.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 07:33, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Parallels Judaism
Would it be appropriate to add on this page that at least since Mishnaic times (200 CE), the Jewish people pray facing the temple mount in Jerusalem? The mishnah speaks about this in tractate Berachot chapter 4 mishnahs 5 and 6 and this practice is even found as early as KingsI 8:35-36.Gavhathehunchback 05:10, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Move
Please move the page title to Qiblah. It is the more correct transliteration from the Arabic. Cuñado  -  Talk  00:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Disputed
''To direct themselves towards the Qibla, Muslims must face the direction of the Kaaba, and not take the shortest path or the path which is taken by airplanes or any other direction which is decided by a modern day formula or calculation... people in North America pray towards the East with a slight southern inclination''

That is completely incorrect very rarely accepted as the direction of prayer. Perhaps I'll fix it later, but this article is of poor quality anyway. joturn e r 04:19, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The Qibla is along a great circle. I read in an issue of National Geographic that Muslims orient themselves in ever-enlarging concentric circles centred at the Kaaba when praying, and as those circles spread out from the Kaaba, they spread down the globe like lines of latitude, eventually converging at the Kaaba's antipode in the South Pacific, and the orthogonal lines to those circles, or "transformed meridians", are the lines that Muslims orient themselves on to face the Kaaba when praying.  The same National Geographic article shows a map of the world with a "Kaaba grid" overlaid on it, and it shows that in North America, the Qibla is oriented slightly northeast.  Denelson83  01:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The vast majority of North American mosques and individual Muslims - as well as the major national organizations - use the Northeastern qibla. The methods of calculating the qibla based on the great circle have been in use amongst Muslims since early Medieval times. The history as well as the fiqh of this issue were chronicled by Nuh Ha Mim Keller in Port in a Storm: A Fiqh Solution to the Qibla of North America (ISBN: 9957230042). IQAG1060 00:29, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Isn't the direction of Kabba both the shortest distance, the great circle route, and the likely direction of airplanes? Or is the first writer saying that to face Kabba, if you are on the other side of the earth, you must face straight down, or perhaps face toward the direction indicated by a straight line drawn on a Mercator projection? If not, then it seems to me all the authors in this conversation are already in agreement, and there is no dispute. 67.170.154.26 23:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Besides, a Mercator projection map is not a true representation of the Earth. If the Earth was flat, then Muslims in North America would definitely face east-southeast to look toward Mecca.  Of course, that is not the case in reality.  The Earth is an oblate spheroid, and only a globe can show the Earth as it truly is. --  Denelson83  10:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

There have been some recent additions to the article claiming that some conservative islamic scholars say that prayers cannot pass through certain minerals in the earth's crust. The reference given does not back up this claim; the only references on the google-discovered web that I have found are themselves referencing the quote in this article. The claim in itself is not too barmy to be something said by an Islamic scholar, but it does not seem to be easily verifiable. MarkHudson (talk) 11:56, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Offworld
I know that I've seen mentions in science fiction of the qibla-related difficulty that would be encountered by Muslims who travel to other planets - although since my Usenet access has been temporarily abrogated, I can't ask on rec.arts.sf.written until I get things fixed up. DS 16:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The direction is not so important for people in outer space, because 1) it is very rare, 2) the intention (niya) is what counts (for exemple if someone is lost or in the dark, the direction could be anywhere, the important is the faith, not the technical details) and 3) there are rules for people on a camel or on a boat (they direct themselves toward the head of the ship). HC 16:52, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Those rules should be mentioned in the article. --Error 20:30, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * In 1985, a Saudi Arabian astronaut travelled aboard the Space Shuttle Discovery. Does anyone know how he prayed in space?  --Wechselstrom 21:23, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * in an interview he said that he could pray and fast but he couldn't determine the qibla or prostrate properly during his prayer, I also read that you can try to face the Earth itself when in outerspace since that would be facing the kaaba logically, of course that is not always available since the Earth could be beneath you or simply invisible Habibko (talk) 13:36, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * when in a vehicle one faces the heading of the vehicle, if one is able. The ISS is like a metal camel or a ship. 20040302 (talk) 01:10, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Capitalization
Should this be capitalized...? I don't see why it should be. Comments? Answers? gren グレン 02:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It's capitalized to indicate respect, because it's a religious concept. DS 18:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Capitalization does not matter in this case, because it's not a proper name. Furthermore it is an Arabic word and the capital Q may represent that it is not actually a Q but a letter "qaf" which does not actually sound like a q. In any case, it is fine either way.

Al-Andalus
I heard somewhere that the mosques of Al Andalus had their mirhabs pointing to the south instead of southeast because Muslims arrived from the South. Is it true? --Error 20:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * At least the mihrab of the Mezquita of Córdoba points South. I read in Spanish wikipedia that there are several proposals to explain it. --Error 20:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Inside the Kaaba?
I have heard that sometimes, the authorities of Mecca invited certain people to pray inside the Kaaba itself. What is the orientation of the Qibla in that case? -- 85.179.167.1 23:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * They prey out towards the walls of the Kaaba. --  Denelson83  05:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Different rhumb lines pass through the same pair of points
Given any pair of different points on the Earth's surface that aren't antipodal, there is exactly one great circle that passes through both. Such is not the case for rhumb lines; in fact, given any pair of points at different latitudes, there are infinitely many rhumb lines that pass through them both. I'm not sure the article should mention this, but I'm saying it here in case anyone is wondering. —Keenan Pepper 01:25, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Antipodal direction?
The article seems to indicate that the orientation of shadows is the only widely accepted method of determining the direction to Mecca. If the sun is directly over the antipodal point of Mecca, the shadow goes straight down toward the ground. So which direction should Muslims face if they are at that location? Obviously, straight through the Earth is the shortest and most direct line to Mecca, but it seems inherently sacrilegious to pray directly at the ground. JCub 13:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Since there is no land in this place (it's in the middle of the Pacific ocean), this questions seems to be of little practical significance. Also, the qibla is of course calculated along the surface of the earth, not *through* the earth. -- 85.179.173.65 00:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Qibla from a voyage to Alpha Centauri
In Abdul Ahad's novel First Ark to Alpha Centauri (publish in US, 2005) there is a reference to the Qibla and the celestial direction that Muslims will face on a long voyage to the star Alpha Centauri. It is the first known reference to Makkah from an interstellar vantage point by any muslim author that has been precisely calculated using celestial navigation. See the article in The Daily Star —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.176.196.73 (talk) 12:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You are referring to qibla in popular culture. Thanks for the notice. --  fayssal   / Wiki me up® 13:17, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Map?
I think that it would be interesting if someone could provide a map of the world with the qibla direction every 15 degrees or so (that is, create some lines of longitude except with Mecca as the pole). Just a suggestion, 86.74.122.183 (talk) 12:04, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Done. Best regards, -- JCIV (talk) 17:19, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * What this azimuthal equidistant map actually depicts is the direction FROM Mecca! For directions TO Mecca one can use a retro-azimuthal map but these are only useful for a limited part of the terrestrial globe. For examples, see Waldo Tobler's Qibla Maps AstroLynx (talk) 08:02, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Fixed with File:Craig projection SW.jpg. cm&#610;&#671;ee&#9094;&#964;a&#671;&#954; 13:58, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

removed this from kabaa article as it's already here apparently
Like Jews, the earliest Muslims prayed facing Jerusalem. According to Islamic tradition, when Muhammad was praying in the Qiblatain Mosque (in Medina), he was ordered by God to change the qibla from Jerusalem to Mecca and the Kaaba. Various theories are advanced as to the reason for the change.

Muslim groups in the United States differ as to how the qibla should be oriented - some believe that the direction should be calculated as a straight line drawn on a flat map, like the familiar Mercator projection of the globe; others say that the direction is determined by the shortest line on the globe of the earth, or a great circle. At times this controversy has led to heated disputes. Flat-map Muslims in the United States pray east and slightly south; great-circle Muslims face in a north-easterly direction. In both cases, the exact orientation will vary from city to city.

Qibla compasses are available that tell Muslims which direction to face no matter where they are. This method requires one to align the north arrow with a particular point on the compass corresponding to one's location. Once so aligned, one simply turns toward the direction indicated by the compass's qibla pointer, which is often in the shape of a minaret. "Qibla numbers" for various locations are listed in an accompanying booklet and also indexed online.

Pbhj (talk) 12:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Please correct!!!
About the joined photo, you commented: Dome of the rock: former Qibla of Islam.. and this is wrong, please correct it! Please note that: the former qibla of Islam is al-Aqsa mosque. The dome of the rock was just been built decades after the life of Muhammad, the prophet of muslims.

Thank you! 130.79.247.245 (talk) 21:03, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

First Qibla: citation please
Please can the full citation for the following... "'In Islam, this qiblat was used for over 13 years, from 610 CE until 623 CE. Seventeen months after the Islamic prophet Muhammad's 622 CE arrival in Medina, the Qiblah became oriented towards the Kaaba in Mecca.'" ...be reproduced here as the source given (In the Lands of the Prophet, Time-Life, p. 29) is unaccessable. Chesdovi (talk) 16:26, 5 October 2010 (UTC)


 * It has been said, and not denied by educated British Imams, that the earliest mosques were not aligned to Jerusalem or Mecca but to Petra. These include mosques to the north in Palestine and Damascus and to the east in China. Only from the year AD 700 were new mosques built with a Qibla towards the Kaabah. Moreover some of the early descriptions of events relating to Mohammed are said to relate much more easily to Petra, which had long been a powerful and well defended city, than to Mecca which was small and little known. Logical Analyst (talk) 16:24, 19 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Without a verifiable source, such claims can not be added. AstroLynx (talk) 17:14, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Astronomical determinations
As the Kaaba itself is astronomically aligned, the earliest qibla determinations from the 7th and 8th centuries were made using the rising and setting of the sun and fixed stars. The "Qibla determinations" section should have an Astronomy subsection. I'm surprised its not at all mentioned here right now.  T i a m u t talk 21:09, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Merge with Qiblih
Or, probably more accurate would be merge Qiblih with this, or merge them both into a different transliteration if there's one we can agree is more encyclopedic. Point is, the word in Arabic is the same, the concept is the same (like Messiah -> Masih, etc.) I can't think of a reason they need to or ought to be separate articles. Any objections? Peter Deer (talk) 04:53, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Meaning of Qibla
The original meaning of Qibla قبلة‎ is kiss, not direction. You can proof it with translator and with google pictures.
 * LOL, that's right but the word قُبلة and قِبلة are pronounced differently. The one that means kiss is pronounced "Qobla" while this one is "Qiblah" the difference between the two words is something called kasrah--SharabSalam (talk) 23:45, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

External links modified
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Qibla to Petra
Asking why there are no islamic sources for the earlier qiblas pointing to Petra is absurd. First, there is actual physical evidence in the form of mosques and qiblas. Mosques are islamic architectural sources. But more than that, it is by an analysis of the text of the Quran that Dan Gibson found the city mentioned. For instance, there was a sanctuary with a black stone dedicated to the deities Uzzat, Allat and Manat in Petra (the deities described in the city of the Prophet before the hegira), so it makes sense that qiblas pointed to it before az-Zubayr stole the black stone. As far as I understand the Quran is an islamic source. Leocomix (talk) 16:35, 24 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Gibson's Qur'anic Geography is not a reliable source. Nor is the Qur'an a reliable source on history. And if Mecca was Petra, where does Medina fit

in this picture? AstroLynx (talk) 08:14, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Because Mehrabs started to be built in the 2nd century in Higri history, also Gibson as it said above is not the source that you should take into account

,because if you read the history of Islam from a neutral point, you will find how that book was so funny especially when the writer mentioned that mosque in China which according to Gibson was built even before the Prophet.الرشيد (talk) 23:34, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Temple mount
Hi, I don't have much idea about this Temple but it isn't mentioned in Islamic books as the former Qiblah. The former Qiblah that is mentioned in Islamic books is al-Aqsa Mosque so I changed Temple mount to al-Aqsa mosque I hope you dont mind.--SharabSalam (talk) 23:15, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * What I have said is this: Al-Aqsa Mosque is equal to what Jews believe it to be the Temple Mount, this what they believe in!الرشيد (talk) 23:24, 16 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Okay, I see. How about we say this?
 * The former Qiblah of Islam, the al-Aqsa Mosque (Temple Mount), in the Old City of Jerusalem
 * Because I don't want to say that the Temple Mount is the former Qiblah because Islamic sources call it al-Aqsa Mosque not Temple Mount--SharabSalam (talk) 23:35, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * You are right bro, I did not observed what was written between brackets. Because of what is written here in Wikipedia about Al-Aqsa Mosque that it is just the mosque with the silver dome, which is wrong, I just attempted to say that Al-Aqsa Mosque is consist of Al-Qibli Mosque, The Dome of the Rock  and other parts inside the siege in the old city. Also the Picture should be of the whole Mosque not just Al-Qibli Mosque.الرشيد (talk) 23:44, 16 June 2019 (UTC)Thank You
 * I will look at the al-Aqsa Mosque article later. Do you have a different picture that shows al-Aqsa Mosque??--SharabSalam (talk) 23:52, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I have changed the photo to this one File:Jerusalem-2013(2)-Aerial-Temple Mount-(south exposure).jpg--SharabSalam (talk) 23:58, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * This one is perfect. Also, The Article of Al-Aqsa Mosque must be move to Al-Qibli Mosque. Thank you الرشيد (talk) 00:05, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * , Why?? Is it only because the Arabic wikipedia article that is linked to it is called al-Musalla al-Qibli?? I can fix that problem without renaming the article by linking it to this article ar:المسجد الأقصى. Would that be okay? --SharabSalam (talk) 00:15, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, here in Wikipedia they take the accounts of Jews without considering the accounts of others. So, Al- Aqsa Mosque article is talking about Al-Qibli Mosque as if it is Al-Aqsa Mosque mentioned in the Quran. the article should be move just to Al-Qibli Mosque like in the Arabic Version, And Al-Aqsa Mosque is the same article of what is called here Temple Mount, and remember that they make Al-Qibli as a redirect to it. you can see that other versions of Wikipedia talking about Al-Qibli Mosque not any thing else. So what should be move is the one in this Wikipedia Thank you الرشيد (talk) 00:26, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

, how about we dont link the article of Temple Mount to any Arabic article because the Arabic article that it is linked to it is about al-Aqsa Mosque. Here is what I suggest we do. The Temple Mount article will have no Arabic article because I couldn't find an article in Arabic wikipedia about it--SharabSalam (talk) 00:37, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Remove the link between Temple Mount and ar:المسجد الأقصى
 * Remove the link between al-Aqsa Mosque and ar:المصلى القبلي
 * Link ar:المسجد الأقصى to al-Aqsa Mosque
 * Zionists and their supporters here call Al-qibli Mosque Al-Aqsa to just make Al-Aqsa of Muslims a small part of what they believe to be Temple Mount A second point we should take other versions of Wikipedia into account, in the same time their is a redirect of Al-Qibli Mosque to the Temple Mount also, by reading the article you will find that it is about Al-Qibli not Al-Aqsa. I just Mentioned you in Al-Qibli Mosque article (what they try to say it is Al-Aqsa.الرشيد (talk) 00:48, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I will change the links first. The content can be later changed. We can also create a separated article about al-Musalla al-Qibili.--SharabSalam (talk) 00:52, 17 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Other language versions can be useful but we do not have to take them into account. Different Wikipeias have different policies and a small few have serious problems - the Ethiopian language one had an Admin enforcing Ethiopian law against LGBT people, and of course our Wikipedias are language based, not country based. He was globally banned. الرشيد I'm bothered by your lack of good faith. You've had the discretionary sanctions alert and that applies to talk pages also. I think you need to strike through that comment.  Doug Weller  talk 17:14, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Article expansion
I've recently expanded and revamped the article, using id:Kiblat (the Indonesian version of this article) as basis. Hopefully it has much better detail now and it's well referenced as well. I'm hoping to take the article to GA or similar status. Feedback and copyedits welcome! HaEr48 (talk) 02:40, 10 April 2020 (UTC) Rahbab Chowdhury (talk) 00:21, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) Yes do take it. I checked it and all facts and information is true. Although i suggest that you organize the article a bit more before you nominate

The equation
There are a couple of references to the trigonometric equation. Wouldn't it be appropriate to give the mathematics? TomS TDotO (talk) 09:27, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , the trigonometric formula is given in the Qibla section. Is that what you mean? HaEr48 (talk) 10:16, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Overhead sun
The article gives an exact Standard time and date for the sun to be directly overhead in Mecca. That is impossible. The figures may be correct for some particular year, but they are nonsense otherwise. John W. Kennedy (talk) 14:13, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , The article only gives the time in minutes, which should be the same from year to year. See for example noon in 28 May 2020 and 28 May 1950, as calculated by timeanddate.com. I believe other tools will also give you the same conclusion. Any reason you think it would be impossible? HaEr48 (talk) 14:52, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I think it's still a fair approximation to say that the sun is directly overhead any point at noon sharp, and that each degree of longitude gives you 4 minutes off. The whole point of leap seconds is to maintain that correspondance, is it not? --Artoria2e5 🌉 02:26, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Calculate on the Google Maps - why undid?
why undid My page? I have full information. My page of best writed. best writed. My judgement, qualitative of the judgement. do you understand? a... or not.Hadysylmy (talk) 03:21, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Because it is not the right style for Wikipedia to write an instruction/how-to like that, please see the explanation in WP:NOTHOWTO. The Google Map link is already in the Online Tools section in the bottom. HaEr48 (talk) 03:31, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Protection
@ is there any way to get this page protected? Someone keeps spamming his personal link here. Danu Widjajanto (talk) 07:16, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
 * It has been added xwiki m:User:COIBot/XWiki/qiblafinder.org, and is being tracked. Removing the section and the temptation is the clearest indicator and avoids "favouritism" and "they did it" responses. If it continues then I will up the responsive means. Please do not hesitate to ping if it becoming unmanageable. — billinghurst  sDrewth  02:47, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Online tools
Having an uncontrolled list of "online tools" seems contrary to WP:External links and WP:Directory. It would seem more appropriate to have a general section in the body of the article that explains in an encyclopaedic sense about online tools and apps, without particular recommendations. If there is a clear authoritative tool or link then it should be mentioned in that section as a reference. Otherwise we will continue with the link spam of each new "deserving" tool. — billinghurst  sDrewth  02:44, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * @ I concur, thank you for removing that section. Danu Widjajanto (talk) 08:10, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

@ someone still managed to spam their personal link here:. Is there a way to block the URL? Danu Widjajanto (talk) 08:59, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Prohibiting links is of course possible, though we try other means to manage links and link additions first. — billinghurst  sDrewth  11:49, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Summary on top
This article's summary on the top is a bit too dense and long. It should be a short summary with key points from the article itself. TiaIvy (talk) 05:08, 29 January 2024 (UTC)