Talk:South Atlantic tropical cyclone

Locations of advisories
Brazilian Navy Hydrographic Center:
 * Portuguese: Bulletins (FQST01) // Warnings (WWST01) // Weather Maps
 * English: Bulletins (FQST02) // Warnings (WWST02)
 * Seven-day archives

What makes this storm odd?
This article isn't really clear on what's so odd about the storm. Is it because of the location, or because of the date? Also, what is defined as the Southern Atlantic?


 * It's odd because it was in the south Atlantic. We don't have an article on the South Atlantic specifically (and probably don't need one).  Seasonally, March in the southern hemisphere could be called equivalent to September in the northern hemisphere, smack in the middle of the peak of our hurricane season, so if a cyclone is going to form in the South Atlantic March is not an unusual time for it to occur.  What we could use is someone to do a bit of research on precisely WHY cyclonic storms are so rare in the South Atlantic; I suspect it has something to do with currents and trade winds and so forth but a guess is not what we're looking for.  Thehappysmith 21:12, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This picture is awesome. Show this to the non-believing Brazillian government and see if they still think it wasn't a hurricane. 

E. Brown, Hurricane enthusiast - Squawk Box 20:00, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Since you are a hurricane enthusiast, you should be able to see that the hurricane is rotating in a clockwise direction by the shape of the cloud formations which are in the mirror-image of a comma.


 * The meteorologists who are employed by the National Weather Service in the U.S.A. know that hurricanes begin in Africa. A mass of hot air will slip out of Africa into the North Atlantic Ocean and generate a trough of low pressure called an EASTERLY WAVE.  Clouds develop in Easterly waves.  Easterly waves are visible on satellite photographs when they are about 500 miles (800 km) off the coast of Africa.


 * Africa is less wide in the Southern Hemisphere, therefore, less hot air is produced there to generate Easterly waves.


 * Easterly waves drift across the ocean along with the trade winds. Only a small percentage of Easterly waves develop into hurricanes.


 * The North Pacific Ocean sees more hurricanes than does the North Atlantic. The Indian Ocean is the host of many hurricanes, too, which have wreaked havoc in Bangladesh at the Bay of Bengal.  20:49Z June 1st, 2005.

Uh, yeah, I know. What's the point of telling me this?

E. Brown, Hurricane enthusiast - Squawk Box 17:00, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I wish that this would say just why the Brazilian government didn't think it was a hurricane. They had to have had some sort of scientific evidence that challenged it somewhere rather than just make baseless claims, since nobody isn't going to think that it's a hurricane just by looking at it. bob rulz July 6, 2005 15:23 (UTC)


 * Isn't propaganda its own reason? They have long been a country that never had to deal with hurricanes - it's a psychological blow. --Golbez July 6, 2005 15:50 (UTC)

I found some great satellite animations of the storm. . This site has a lot of great imagery on it

E. Brown, Hurricane enthusiast - Squawk Box 02:40, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

The Brazilian Meteorologists didn't say it was a hurricane because Meteorology is lame around here. Sorry to troll, but that is fact. I, for one, know of several people that work with it in my University, and it's almost a toy-dept. Most people don't even know, for example, that there are places where it snows every year, that there are Tornadoes in Brazil, and things like these. It doesn't take more than a tourist trip to US to notice how different people treat Met. here and there. Most people around believe Met. is only for telling if they should go to the beach or if it's gonna rain in the weekend. :( nihil 10:10, 19 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Storms are so rare in the south Atlantic because of strong shear and cooler waters. That simple. Incidentally, the occurrence of tropical systems where Catrina tracked is predicted by some climate models. There is a lot of information in the two sources I have listed in the article, including the exceptional conditions that allowed the system to form (and I plan to add content time permitting). The Brazilian weather service (Weather Forecasting and Climatic Studies Centre) refused to acknowledge that the system was tropical because of denial of reality, not any empirical evidence; none had been observed before and textbook meteorology says tropical cyclones don't form in the south Atlantic. Meteorologists at the Climaterra Institutes of Santa Catarina and of Santa Catarina University did recognize that it was tropical. So did the NHC, who classified the system, and called the Brazilian government to no avail (they also called some Brazilian radio stations who then gave proper warning). The Brazilian government now admits it was a hurricane. Evolauxia 22:05, 11 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with the shear argument, but I submit it is more of a lack of disturbances than cool ocean. The waters in the tropical south Atlantic are warm enough for tropical cyclone formation, although the area is of warm water is admittedly smaller than it would be in the North Atlantic and most other ocean basins.  You can see the SSTs in the south Atlantic at this link: .  Even today (in their very late fall/early winter), 26C water extends far enough away from the equator in the south Atlantic to act as fuel for any possible systems.  Thegreatdr 15:10, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Separate Catarina article
I (strongly) propose a seperate article for 'Hurricane Catarina'. I'm a meteorologist and can attest that this was an exceptional event; and there is so much information that its own article is strongly warranted. Evolauxia 16:16, 2 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Second to a new article. Maybe not Hurricane Catarina, but a Cyclone Catarina article would work. This could cover all bases. It may not have been a tropical cyclone, but it was a cyclone of some sort. In addition, don't they call hurricanes cyclones down there? Hurricane Catarina sounds too North Atlantic/EPAC oriented. Regardless, an article should be made. Hurricanehink 16:25, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I third the notion. Cyclone Catarina. -- RattleMan 22:41, 2 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Done! At least it's a good start, IMO, for a Cyclone Catarina article. Hurricanehink 02:26, 3 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that article is a good start and will probably become the best common and well-known source of information on this cyclone on the 'net. When I suggested the new article name I put Catrina in quotes because of the uncertainity on what to name it, but I realize it could look like I was proposing that specific name, sorry for the confusion. It most certainly was completely tropical in nature as is any other tropical cyclone found in any other basin. This is the first storm observed in the western south Atlantic Basin, as such I don't believe there are any naming conventions for what the systems are called, therefore, cyclone is appropriate. Some climatological models have predicted that this would occur and that more activity is likely in the future. Here are some more resources for editors, I intend to add content myself as I have time (I added the Geophysical Research Letters paper and Brazilian conference paper as sources in the main article already).
 * http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=16505
 * http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/catarina.html
 * http://trmm.gsfc.nasa.gov/publications_dir/south_atlantic_cyclone.html
 * http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/gallery/?2004087-0327
 * http://www.ssec.wisc.edu/media/spotlight/brazil_hurricane.html

Atlantic hurricanes versus Southern Hemisphere tropical cyclones
All current categories for Atlantic hurricanes are for North Atlantic hurricanes. There are several good reasons why this TC should be lumped in with the southern hemisphere basin instead of the N Atlantic basin: Jdorje 22:57, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Season. The southern hemisphere seasons span 2 years since they run through the southern summer (i.e., the northern winter).  If you lump this into the north atlantic season it ends up in the 2004 season and becomes (erronously) one of the earliest-forming storms.
 * Naming. North Atlantic storms are hurricanes.  The name for this storm is apparently given as "Cyclone Catarina", though I don't know why.
 * Areas. The Northern Atlantic basin is well-defined.  The Southern Hemisphere basin (as the name implies) covers pretty much all of the southern hemisphere (though this is the only South Atlantic storm in the list).


 * Completely agreed. I made it a cyclone Catarina article intstead of Hurricane Catarina for 2 reasons. One, due to the dispute over whether it was a tropical cyclone or not, it was at least a cyclone of some sort, be it extratropical, subtropical, or tropical. Two, hurricane is a northern hemisphere thing. I'm sorry if I was too bold on calling it a cyclone, but all Southern Hemisphere storms with 74 mph winds or greater are called Cyclones. Hurricanehink 00:23, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * It definitely became fully tropical (from initial extratropical to subtropical to tropical, a series of events that occurs in the formation of tropical systems in any of the basins). Catarina was no different than any other tropical cyclone with winds at least 74 mph, one just has never been observed in the southern Atlantic before. All southern hemisphere tropical cyclones may be termed cyclones, however, I don't know that's an official convention for the southern hemisphere (though it may be, please cite something if so), rather mere regional coincidences. Hurricane is not a northern hemisphere thing if speaking globally as you know with typhoons the official term in much of the Pacific; and the only reason there is no official term for southern Atlantic tropical cyclones is it's not an area usually conducive for their formation (indeed, again this was the first such system ever observed) thus there was no need for monitoring of this area or naming conventions. Tropical cyclone is the general catch-all term agreed upon internationally, but since in some usages of that term includes all tropical systems, cyclone is fine with me. I've noted the lack of official term in the article. I agree that it should not be lumped in the north Atlantic Basin; though all due effort should be made to denote its anomaly that it's not part of the other southern basins. Evolauxia 21:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC)


 * which [Cyclone Catarina] is named after the region it stuck in Brazil. It has also been called by the name "Cyclone Aldonca." —Preceding unsigned comment added by IdahoPotatoFarmer (talk • contribs) 00:07, December 21, 2005 (UTC)


 * If its winds blow anticlockwise, it is North Atlantic. If its winds blow clockwise, it is South Atlantic. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:51, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Depression in December '04?
What? Where did that information come from? The Subtropical storm too. Where did all that stuff come from? -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 04:14, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Improvement drive
Hurricane Katrina has been nominated to be improved by WP:IDRIVE. Support it with your vote and help us bring it up to featured standard! Vote here. --Fenice 12:45, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Todo
Only thing hugely missing is inline sources. For an article like this that jumps between topics it's important each topic be associated with relevant sources. Jdorje 22:11, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Tropical Storm in February 2006?
Over on the Talk:2006 Atlantic hurricane season page it seems to have been established that a tropical storm formed just a few days ago. Should it be added here? —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 19:14, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * We need an official statement on it. If not, then it wasn't notable enough for mention. --Golbez 20:31, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Who would issue this official statement? — jdorje (talk) 23:06, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * As far as we know, it wasn't a tropical storm - AFWA and the HPC noted that it was a warm-core tropical low, but it was never declared a depression, and Dvorak numbers never indicated wind speeds higher than 25 kt. --Coredesat 23:51, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * There is no one around to declare it a depression there... CrazyC83 00:08, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * No one declared the January 2004 storm, and this one at least has Dvorak estimates. Hurricanehink 00:26, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * To the contrary, it received unique designators from several sources, like 50L.NONAME from the US Naval Lab, and 01T-ALPHA from the UK Met. Being 90L.INVEST is not a unique identifier, that's the whole point, if an invest doesn't mature then it was just another storm. We are not here to make pronouncements - if a weather journal or meteorological office mentions it in a standard/press release, then we should, but til then, it was exactly what it was - a storm being INVESTigated for tropical cyclone characteristics and possibilities, and which did not reach it, thus being just another warm, vaguely spinning mass of clouds. --Golbez 01:31, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You're talking about Catarina, not the January 2004 storm... CrazyC83 02:27, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh. Hm. Yeah, that dearly needs sources, or it should be deleted. --Golbez 04:10, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

It may not be possible to find "official" sources since there is no official body. But we do need *some* sources. IIRC most sources for Cyclone Catarina are from university researchers; the WMO has information about it and I'm sure it was covered in journals and such. — jdorje (talk) 01:35, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * While not an official source, wunderground called it a tropical depression, citing the following:

''Satellite images and wind measurements from the Quikscat satellite show that a rare tropical depression in the South Atlantic probably formed for a few hours today, but the storm has since been sheared apart by strong upper-level winds, and is not a threat to re-develop. Although the storm was tropical, had a closed circulation, and winds of up to 35 mph (according to the Quikscat satellite), it only had those characteristics for about three hours today. The National Hurricane Center usually does not designate a system as a tropical depression unless it can hold together for at least six hours. The system formed near 29S 36W, about 600 miles southeast of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, over waters of about 27 degrees C--well above the 26 C threshold needed for tropical storm formation. ''


 * Closed circulation, 30 knot winds - definitely a tropical cyclone to me... CrazyC83 02:31, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * It's okay to mention, just use sources like some have said; no original research. There were a few "official" statements made, go from that without adding anything original, mainly, don't clasify it a depression or anything unless an official source does. They would have done so if they thought it prudent, agencies were certainly aware of its existence. Evolauxia 07:33, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * If we do put it up, I have some great images to use. Weatherman90 17:25, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't be surprised if similar systems have occurrred several times in the past, or say since the satellite era. If it is mentioned, just list it providing images and just what is known on the facts; but don't say it was unique, as it just happened to be seen by someone closely watching things and others could and likely have been 'missed'. Although there are (scant) agency reports to go from, it's atypical to mention what was only a strong wave that was likely tropical. That's all we really know in that is what I've seen for 'official evidence'. Evolauxia 09:22, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Very true. However, Dvorak reports would probably justify its existence on Wikipedia. In addition, this blog can be used as a source. Hurricanehink 16:37, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe this should be put on Wikipedia too. This is a very odd case. On another note, did anyone see the odd eye-like feature in this system? It is severly doubted to be a true eye, but it's interesting nonetheless. -- RattleMan 16:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed, in brief measure. They need to start naming storms in the South Atlantic though... CrazyC83 02:33, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * There's a nice picture of it from NASA. Why do they call it Tropical Cyclone Carina? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Good kitty (talk • contribs)


 * Um...that's not the tropical cyclone we're talking about, from the South Atlantic. That's Tropical Cyclone Carina from the Southern Indian Ocean. It recently reached 130 knots and 910 mb, a true monster. Definitely not from the South Atlantic, no way. -- RattleMan 22:56, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Another one???
Thanks to someone over at Storm2k.org, there appears to be another possible one just off the Brazilian coast. You can see it in this image. Hurricanehink 13:36, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Guess not. Poof! Hurricanehink 16:37, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

SubTropical storm section
Not to denigrate Jeff Masters at all, but he's only one meteorologist. Do we really need this section without official pronouncements? --Golbez 03:57, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * There's no way to get truly "official" pronouncements. But I agree that one meteorologist's blog is not enough of a source to justify an entire section. — jdorje (talk) 04:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Something from local meteorologists maybe, or any pronouncement from any official body? (like Catarina got) We can't record every swirling cloud in the South Atlantic. --Golbez 19:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * "Official" sources are hard to come by, especially since there is really no precedent for them to do so (1 hurricane-like storm in how many years?) Additionally, as with the US, government bodies need to be mindful of how they classify and warn about weather features so as not to panic their residents (or in some cases insurance carriers). You could consolidate the links into external links in the paragraph above, eliminating the need for the section, however (IMHO). Ccmhg 16:29, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

January 2005 Possible Storm
Hink linked to Gary Padgett's mention of a January disturbance. Not that I have a PhD, but this looks pretty good. I've been studying images of hurricanes for the better part of three years now and that looks pretty tropical to me. I'm usually pretty skeptical of Padgett; writing a report on everything that moves, but this time I have to agree with him. If we can have a section on Jeff Masters' storms, then I think this Gary Padgett one deserves a 'possible tropical/subtropical cyclone' section too. -- § Hurricane E  RIC § archive 01:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * As that image seems to be the work of the NOAA, consider uploading it to the Wikimedia Commons using PD-USGov-NOAA. Yonatan talk 07:41, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I also remember reading this a while back: "On Jan 30, 2005, a low-pressure system near 20.5S/37.5W began to show a few signs of the first stages of evolving towards a subtropical or tropical cyclone. There was a big blow-up of convection and some evidence of upper-level outflow." http://www.australiasevereweather.com/cyclones/2005/summ0501.htm Added 5/26/14 by guest

January Subtropical cyclone of 2009
2009 Subtropical Cyclone, is there any source about it? I looked up the satellite and don't see much going on. And this may look like one. HurricaneSpin Talk My contributions 00:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Gary Padgets January summuary is the source - Jason Rees (talk) 00:15, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

This one might also be a tropical cyclone, it look no different than a sheared up storm in SPac. HurricaneSpin Talk My contributions 01:48, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Sheesh, they really are bending the definition of "subtropical". Here's an image after landfall, only one i could find. -Winter123 (talk) 15:22, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Tropical Storm Anita's Article
I think that Tropical Storm Anita deserves an article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.35.176.22 (talk) 23:27, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It's in the works. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 23:50, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Current storm (90Q)
WikiProject Tropical cyclones/2011 SATL - here's a sandbox in case we'll need one. Otherwise, that'll be what we'll put in the section. ♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 23:20, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Hey!! Please, be careful with the information being published! Part of the given description DOES NOT correspond to Invest 90Q (Arani), neither the photograph!! The article begins with the description of a very short lived subtropical storm which took place in southern Brazil, eastern Uruguay and adjacent Atlantic ocean (near 34S, 53W) [the picture refers to that system] from March 10 to March 11. Arani IS currently taking place in south-eastern Brazil, more than two thousand kilometres from 34S, 53W. Please correct the information, in order to make it reliable. Thanks. Gonzalo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peordemonio (talk • contribs) 21:15, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Arani and Anita
Through the IBTRACS project, the WMO is calling Anita and Arani tropical disturbances.Jason Rees (talk) 10:48, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Feb. 2014 Subtropical Depression
The Brazilian Navy recently declared an upper low off the coast of Brazil as a subtropical depression. Now should it be added to the storm list or is it not noticeable enough? Supportstorm (talk) 21:51, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Its good to go IMO since the WPC are also providing some details on it.Jason Rees (talk) 22:25, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I think the only reason they noted it was because Brazil did, but I think it should be in the article regardless for the time being. If nothing much becomes of it or for some reason it's deemed non-notable it can be dealt with then. atomic  77  32  02:52, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Potential Sources
Just dumping this here for now - so it doesnt get lost: Feel free to expand the list though!Jason Rees (talk) 01:38, 8 February 2015 (UTC)



Other systems
Just to update everyone as will be seen from the history of the page, I have introduced an other systems section and have chucked several of the possible systems into it. My thoughts are too chuck most subtropical depressions into it as well while leaving out Angola, Catarina, Anita, Arani and Bapo.Jason Rees (talk) 04:47, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * As the Brazilian Navy has started to assign names for tropical and subtropical storms, those depressions are no longer that important for readers. It is also confirmed that storms like Catarina in the future will be classified as hurricanes, not cyclones. -- Meow  05:38, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * As i stated - most will be going into other systems but some depressions maybe notable enough for a full section if there is enough damage.Jason Rees (talk) 14:42, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


 * January 2004 and Feb 2006 are two of the best looking systems after Caterina, Anita and Arani. Far better looking then Bapo or the subtropical systems that are shown to be devoid of convection. Why stick them down at the bottom? Matthurricane (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 07:48, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, both weren't recognized by any meteorological agency. Only Gary Padgett recognized them. ABC paulista (talk) 13:10, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The biggest problem is a lack of info besides them not being recognized, unless there is some decent source of info that you know of .Jason Rees (talk) 14:42, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Angola cyclone track
Could the 1991 Angola cyclone track map shown in the Diagnostic Report of the National Hurricane Center: June and July 1991, pg 13 (Fig II.A-2.) be used to generate a map for that TC in the Wikiproject? ABC paulista (talk) 15:01, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Im afraid not as it lacks the underlining data (ie:3S 10E).Jason Rees (talk) 15:31, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The track can be created since the map given is in a format that can be geo-referenced to extract points. But I don't know the intensities of the points or the exact time each was plotted for. I suppose using satellite data to find the time could be used instead if the points are in either 6 or 12 hour increments. Supportstorm (talk) 16:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * We could just upload that image, since it's from NHC. Sure, it won't look the same, but it's reliable and verifiable. Hurricanehink mobile (talk) 19:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that is what might have to happen. I'll get to uploading it soon. Supportstorm (talk) 11:24, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Designations
Since the second name from the 'new' SAtl tropical cyclone list has been used, then wouldn't there be a designation for it? Or do they do designations already or not yet? Just asking. Typhoon2013 (talk) 08:51, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * No, because these names given by brazilian Navy are unofficial (they were not designated by the WMO). Still, the NHC gives identifiers for South Atlantic cyclones trough the ATCF System Storm Identification Character String. ABC paulista (talk) 19:01, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * If there is ever any designation from either the US DoD (NHC or JTWC) or another forecasting agency then we will note it if relevant. In the case of BApo no such designations have been made AFAIK.Jason Rees (talk) 21:56, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Nothing related to tropical or subtropical storms is official in this basin as of today. However, the names from the Brazilian Navy are currently the most quasi-official designations. -- Meow  04:33, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually it has been accepted by the WMO, that Catarina was |a hurricane.Jason Rees (talk) 16:19, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Still, there's no official meteorological agency, forecasts and/or advisories for the South Atlantic. ABC paulista (talk) 19:28, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * While there is no officially designated tropical cyclone warning centre for the SATL, there is an official meteorological agency for the purposes of Marine Warnings which hurricanes come under: its called the Brazilian Navy. As a result I do not see why we need the WMO to state that a warning centers are official.Jason Rees (talk) 16:14, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The brazilian official meteorological agencies are the INMET and INPE (CPTEC), still we use the Brazilian Navy's info for updates (probably only because they name the storms). The BNHC naming politics are like the ones of PAGASA or FU Berlin: They name storms independently, without official designations, only for regional advisories. ABC paulista (talk) 20:20, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Can I request that mention of the source of the names be made, and perhaps reference to the NHC identifiers be included, as after reading an article such as this http://phys.org/news/2015-03-nasa-rare-south-atlantic-storm.html it took probably longer than it could have to work out this storm is labelled as Cari here. Perhaps all it would need is a note or a reference to the 90Q name.Lacunae (talk) 18:49, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I do not see the need to include the 90Q designator in the article jsut because NASA used, since its nothing more than just a designation for an Invest. Besides which i have seen other designators used by the US for Cari like 90LS.CARI" ("50Q" on images). As for the source of the names its the Brzailian navy afaik, allthough the blurb for Cari needs a clean in my opinon since it can only be named once.Jason Rees (talk) 19:43, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The problem about Cari's naming was that CPTEC named the storm 12 hours earlier than Brazilian Navy, even with the latter being the one responsible for storm's naming. It's relevant to the storm IMO, although I think that some re-wording is welcomed.
 * About 90Q, it's just a designation used by US meteorological agencies, just like 90SL. Both were already cited on Tropical Storm Anita's section. ABC paulista (talk) 21:27, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yep i am well aware that its is a designation used by US meteorological agencies but we do not normally include the invest numbers and i do not see why we need to mention it in both Anita and Cari since it just adds confusion.Jason Rees (talk) 22:09, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

No, I wasn't defending the inclusion of these designations on Cari's section. Just citing both on Anita's section to acknowledge their existance is sufficient. ABC paulista (talk) 22:26, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

South Atlantic tropical cyclone
Earlier today the content of this article was split off in to tow seperate articles without any discussion or prior warning, which while fair enoguh i have reverted because i do not see the need for the articles to be split off at the current time. I feel that the article could be split off at a later date if it is justfied and done properly.Jason Rees (talk) 16:14, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Cari's Track
Could someone please update Cari's track map, since the last points added were from March 11, and the storm survived for few more days? I don't have access to the TC tracking programs. Thanks. ABC paulista (talk) 18:41, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, that's the extent to which the NRL tracked the system; we don't have a different best track source. &mdash;  Iune (talk)  21:39, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
 * And what about Brazilian Navy's bulletins at the top of this talk page? I can also provide the weather maps if necessary. In Bapo's case, they were used to generate a track until they were replaced bu ASW's Best Track. ABC paulista (talk) 21:56, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I have sent a message to the author of ASW's Monthly Global Tracks which is what your reffering to to see when his tracks will be out.Jason Rees (talk) 00:39, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
 * ASW's Cari Best Track is out now. Please, if possible update Cari's track map adding and correcting points like was done with Bapo. Thanks. ABC paulista (talk) 00:51, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Track map???
Just asking do you guys think that this article should have a track map? There has been 6 known cyclones in this rare basin so far. Typhoon2013 (talk) 04:02, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree, although only 5 of these cyclones would appear on the map, since the Angola Cyclone has only a 12-hour interval track map. ABC paulista (talk) 20:17, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah that should be fine. We do really need it, but I don't know how to make the track map. I'll ask Supportstorm or Cyclonebiskit for this. Typhoon2013  (talk) 21:00, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
 * To my knowledge there are only three objective tracks that could be used for this basin track map. Not much to work with. Supportstorm (talk) 02:40, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Three? I see five. ABC paulista (talk) 03:06, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Two, the latest subtropical storms, were created subjectively by private authors and not by a government organisation. Supportstorm (talk) 09:57, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * But the Brazilian Navy Hydrometeorological Center is a government organisation, and were assigned by Brazilian government to name and assign storms. Both Arani, Bapo and Cari were assigned by Navy.ABC paulista (talk) 15:56, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, but they did not release track data for those storms and the tracks currently in the article could be original research, or at most, not credible. Supportstorm (talk) 21:44, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I would be very careful about saying that the tracks are not credible or original research, when the author of the current tracking data takes points from the NRL, JTWC etc and I believe but can not publicly prove has had his work used by NASA JPL.Jason Rees (talk) 21:56, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Not when the authors states that he conducted his own reanalysis for those points. The Australian Severe Weather uses an assortment of data sources which they will annotate. I use them sometimes to recover lost invest data from the NRL. However, we really shouldn't use data that isn't verifiable through an official source or annotated reanalysis like they mostly did for the Bapo and Cari tracks. Supportstorm (talk) 00:02, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

1974 Cyclone
What happened to the section on the 1974 subtropical cyclone? Why is it gone? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.194.229.152 (talk) 01:12, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The system got moved to other systems since there is not any evidence to say it was a tropical cyclone for certain.Jason Rees (talk) 01:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

January 2016 status
I believe that the "tropical" status on Brazilian Navy January 5 1200z Bulletin was a typo, because the Weather Map of the same time shows the cyclone as subtropical, and the subsequents bulletins and weather maps continue showing it as subtropical. believe that that "tropical" status is not reliable at all. ABC paulista (talk) 14:37, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * This is what I am concerning. The Brazilian Navy keeps indicating subtropical on their weather maps and Portuguese bulletins, but English bulletins remain tropical. I am not sure if we should use tropical or subtropical as they are both ‘official’ on 5 January and today. -- Meow  16:09, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * All right it is tropical now, but the latest Portuguese bulletin calls it subtropical... -- Meow  16:14, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * If there is some doubt as too if its tropical or not - stick it in the other systems section.Jason Rees (talk) 18:02, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * It will be stick in the other systems section if it doesn't receive a name. ABC paulista (talk) 18:48, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Amended... Remaining subtropical now... Do not trust English bulletins from Brazil anymore. -- Meow  01:22, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Hurricane or Cyclone
Cyclone Catarina has been adopted by Wikipedia for many years, because of its location (Southern Hemisphere) and being considered as typical. However, in Brazil, Furacão Catarina (Hurricane Catarina) is much popular than Ciclone Catarina (Cyclone Catarina). Hurricane Catarina is also more popular in English even if the decision of Wikipedia affects its popularity a lot.

Although the term cyclone is described as typical in the Catarina article, it only refers to the summary written by Gary Padgett, which cannot represent most of reports and meteorologists at all. The document by the Brazilian Navy in 2011 indicates not only the name list but the scale. The scale is completely the same to the one that North Atlantic Ocean uses:
 * Depressão Tropical - média (intervalo de um minuto) do vento máximo à superfície é igual ou inferior a 62 km/h, 38 mph, 33 nós ou Força 6 a 7 na Escala Beaufort.
 * Tempestade Tropical - média (intervalo de um minuto) do vento máximo à superfície na faixa de 63 a 117 km/h, 39 a 73mph, 34 a 63 nós ou Força 8 a 11 na Escala Beaufort.
 * Furacão - média (intervalo de um minuto) do vento máximo à superfície é igual ou superior a 118 km/h, 74 mph, 64 nós ou superior a Força 12 na Escala Beaufort.

As the document is currently the de facto standard of the tropical cyclone scale and naming of the South Atlantic Ocean west of 20°W, also with the popularity, my suggestion is to use hurricane completely to all hurricane-force tropical cyclones in the South Atlantic Ocean, including Catarina and future systems, until the World Meteorological Organisation appoints an agency to monitor that basin and changes the scale. -- Meow  05:37, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Very clear cut situation here to me. Went ahead and moved the article to Hurricane Catarina accordingly. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 03:12, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Image for TS Anita
The description of the image says it was taken after it transitioned into an extratropical cyclone. Not sure if it's the best image D3RP4L3RT (DERPALERT) (talk) 02:48, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Changed it back to the March 10, 2010, image...not sure when it was swapped to the March 12 one. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 03:02, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

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Tracks updates
Seeing what you did on adding a SATL tracks summary, please, if possible, could you use the same database(s) to update the individual tracks we have here? It seems that some are outdated, mainly Arani and Cari ones. Thanks, ABC paulista (talk) 16:32, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I have already made them and just need time to upload them all later. Cari is actually updated. -- Meow  16:49, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

ICZ
The article states that the Coriolis force can't help hurricanes form in the intertropical convergence zone. But haven't hurricanes formed near the equator before? 32ieww (talk) 21:41, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, but those are rare occurences. Normally the Colioris effect so close to the equator is not strong enough to generate spin to start a disturbance. ABC paulista (talk) 23:13, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Santa Caterina
Has anyone else noticed that the South Atlantic tropical cyclones have all formed in a certain patch of water near Santa Caterina? What makes this region more favorable than others? 32ieww (talk) 02:13, 27 December 2016 (UTC) 32ieww (talk) 02:13, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It is an area that weak non-tropical disturbances from westerlies or the SACZ could interact with warmer sea surface temperature. 🐱💬 01:25, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

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Iba
Please note that we can not call the tropical depression in the South Atlantic, a tropical storm or Tropical storm Iba without a source.Jason Rees (talk) 13:13, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Iba is now official. Will need an archive.org capture of it for a source however. https://www.marinha.mil.br/chm/dados-do-smm/warnings-and-forecasts/warnings X2A3Q (talk) 16:26, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Image of Iba
As of March 28 at 19:02 UTC, the image used is Iba on March 26. However, I think that the image on March 25 is better, since it shows Iba being more organized that the other. Sure, Iba is shown being sheared, but there's a lot of thunderstorms near the center and the center is well-defined. It's also near peak intensity, which is 50 mph and a pressure of 1006 mbr. The March 26 image shows Iba becoming less organized and weakening due to wind shear. I remember that at that time, Iba had winds of 40 mph and a pressure of 1008 mbr. The problem I see with the March 25 image is that the image is washed-out due to low resolution and the exposed center of circulation. What do you all think?  I Need Support  :3 19:09, 28 March 2019 (UTC)


 * I do kinda agree, the March 25 one is a better image for Iba than the March 26 one.  Sandy 141  56  :)  23:45, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Anita
What is your problem with calling Anita a subtropical storm based on the peer-reviewed journal articles that provided? You claim in one of your edit summaries that it goes "against official statements", however, the only official statements that I can see cited in the article are from WPC who as would tell you are not official and Brazil Met Services whose statement was provided in the immediate aftermath of the system. As a result, I would strongly suggest that we just consider Anita a subtropical storm and partially allow some of 's edits.Jason Rees (talk) 13:47, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't care much about Anita's classification, but I think that the sources presented are qestionable, so they should be considered with caution. First of all, most of them are mere thesis, not full-fledged studies. Also, at least one of them do consider Anita as a tropical system, countering Livia's argument. Finally, the fact that the user has the same name of one of the authors that are most credited in these studies could be considered as self-promotion, and citing its own work is considered a bias that should be avoided.
 * Also, not only WPC but also MetSul calls Anita as tropical, and this is a official brazilian meteorological agency, and I do think that these two outweigths the thesis presented. I'm not against the sources that Lívia presented, but I don't think that them alone justify Anita's reclassification. I can see them being cited as a means of saying that there's some disagreement over its nature, but unless some meteorological agencies acknowledge theses sources, I don't think that they should be fully accepted. ABC paulista (talk) 03:17, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I have looked at the sources provided by carefully and I am happy to accept them as only two of the sources were written by her. Most of the sources provided by her have been through the peer-review process are, while I assume that the other has been defended by her. As a result, I am happy to accept them and the reclassification of Anita as a subtropical cyclone as Metsul and WPC only called it a tropical system at the time.Jason Rees (talk) 14:24, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm not. Although only two of them that have the user being credited, the other three has Rosmeri Porfírio Da Rocha credited, which was her thesis's advisor and part of her thesis's exam board, and some other names are repeated, which indicates that they are part of similar research fields and have similar concepts, what could be considered biased. Also, the other three didn't go further on Anita's nature, they only assessed the system as subtropical based on what Livia's first two works stated and worked on based on this info, so they could be considered questionable for addessing this matter.
 * About the peer-reviewed ones, four of them were published on these journals: Atmosphere published by MDPI, specialized in open-access journals whose credibility and quality are disputed, the relatively unknown UFSM's Ciência e Natura and the both credible JGR and Quarterly Journal of the Royal Meteorological Society. But of the two reliable ones, only the one published on the Quaterly Journal actually studies on about Anita's nature, the others only use it as references.
 * I actually agree with you that more recent sources could be considered more reliable than older ones, but do you have any proof that Metsul and WPC changed their opinion's about Anita's nature? If not, we should consider their view at the time as their most recent one, and I still stand by the opinion that meteorological agencies' statements holds more weight that academical/scientific journals. Also, not only MetSul or WPC consider Anita tropical, but several other meteorogical agencies consider it as such, even agencies like NWS, CPTEC (arguably the main brazilian meteorological agency, controlled by INPE, a sort of brazilian NOAA) and some PhD's on the area. With all that, I mantain my previous opinion. In this case, weight > recency, and I would like to see other people/group, unrelated to Livia and Rosimeri, reaching similar conclusions and acknowledged by meteorological agencies. ABC paulista (talk) 19:36, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * While you are allowed to maintain your previous opinion, I strongly feel that the peer-reviewed journals are reliable enough to allow us to say that Anita did not become a tropical storm. I feel that you are putting to much weight to the sources from the meteorological agencies, who only have limited time to put together their forecasts. I also note that the WPC is just a training desk for visiting metorologists and I seriously doubt that any warning center will reanalyise Anita. However, I have asked a contact to do a personal reanaylsis of Anita and will let you know what he thinks.Jason Rees (talk) 01:40, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, as you may already know, in the project we usually give preference for statements and info that come from meteorological agencies, since they are specialized in meteorology (tropical included), having the biggest know-how in the area, and usually are where we can find most of the experts, doctors and well-reputed scientists in the field. While we do consider other views aside from the agencies, very rarely they supercede the latter ones, and when they do usually their statement/study is endorsed by another meteorolocial agency, and none of Livia's sources has such. Considering that only Livia's group has shown a diverging statement regards Anita, while many others didn't change their position regards the system's nature, I still propose that we do consider their opinions and references, showing that there are some disagreements about Anita's nature, but still mantaining the opinion of the vast majority. I think that that's the best compromise that we can reach, like it was done in other cases like Hurricane Catarina, Tropical Storm Grace and Invest 91C, for example. We have to remember that Wikipedia strives more for reliability, verifiability and the opinion of the majority of the experts than truthfulness per se. ABC paulista (talk) 16:09, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Unknown Tropical Cyclone?
Hey, so I was looking through images in the NOAA Photo Libary website and then I came across one image with a title saying, "TIROS I image showing cyclone centered at 17W, 45 S in South Atlantic. Monthly Weather Review, July 1961, p. 235." Does anyone have any information about this tropical cyclone? Thanks. Image: --SaiTheCyclone (talk) 17:46, 28 October 2019 (UTC)SaiTheCyclone
 * I've never heard of this storm. However, if the caption just says "image showing cyclone", then it doesn't mean it's a tropical cyclone, especially considering how far south it was. ♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 17:48, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh my bad. I know what cyclones are but it seems that I have misread the title. Sorry! --SaiTheCyclone (talk) 17:51, 28 October 2019 (UTC)SaiTheCyclone
 * No worries - good find though! ♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 17:57, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Another system right now?
I currently don't have a picture but satellite imagery in the south alantic shows a subtropical like system off the coast of Brazil. I'm going to let you users think if it's tropical in nature. https://www.windy.com/-Satellite-satellite?satellite,-29.783,-39.309,6,m:cRzaeXO. https://www.wunderground.com/maps/satellite/infrared/soatl — Preceding unsigned comment added by ColinMorgan 56 (talk • contribs) 19:24, 13 August 2020 (UTC) https://worldview.earthdata.nasa.gov/?v=-59.62044830867868,-39.12318021624356,-25.870448308678682,-20.52552396624356&z=1&l=Reference_Labels(hidden),Reference_Features(hidden),Coastlines(hidden),VIIRS_NOAA20_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),VIIRS_SNPP_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Aqua_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor August 13 2020
 * It is not up to us on Wikipedia to decide which storms are tropical cyclones and which are not. This site's policy on original research means editors cannot include systems on the basis of their own meteorological analysis; systems can only be added as they are identified by reliable sources. TornadoLGS (talk) 21:18, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Subtropical cyclone on July 10-11 2020
While going through windy, I stumbled across a subtropical cyclone with tropical characteristics. It even had a eye while it's convection fully wrapped around it's center. I don't have much imagery since it only happened at midnight. I do have a link to it on the day after it's peak intensity. Link:https://worldview.earthdata.nasa.gov/?v=-31.025376259299307,-47.9704902135927,2.724623740700693,-29.372833963592697&t=2020-07-11-T14%3A07%3A47Z&z=1&l=Reference_Labels(hidden),Reference_Features(hidden),Coastlines(hidden),VIIRS_NOAA20_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),VIIRS_SNPP_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Aqua_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor

It looked like any other subtropical storms or even tropical like hurricane Pablo 2019. I do have images of it's peak on visible and on IR ( and air mass ) but Wikipedia's insert system is too complicated for me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.19.58 (talk) 14:33, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

1991 Angola Tropical Storm's track map
, how did you generate the track map for this system? You didn't cite the sources you used to gather the points to generate the map, and I can't find it anywhere. Without them, your map would fall on WP:OR, thus being unreliable and going against Wikipedia's gudelines. Also, please, never re-revert someone, it goes against WP:BRD policy. ABC paulista (talk) 18:15, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I found it on a forum for the WPEC track but I didn’t directly make it. If you prefer i can remove it. Mazum24 (talk) 18:21, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , First of all, always sign your own comments on their end, not after someone's else. Second, per WP:RS a forum is not considered a reliable source, only professional and/or peer reviewed sources count, made by third parties. But, if possible, could you share the link from where you found it? I'm curious to see how they managed to find this "best track". Finally, when generating images for Wikipedia, always cite the source for them and/or the info they are trying to convey, it's needed for vierifiability reasons. ABC paulista (talk) 18:32, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Change the format?
I noticed that the “known storms” section is split in 3 sections. Can I combine them? Hi 022828 (talk) 10:30, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * They were split to better organize the section and to give the reader a better context about the timeline of these storms. I think it works well the way it is now. ABC paulista (talk) 16:33, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Mani image
Can someone put the satellite image for Mani? It doesn't have one right now. Please fix this. CyclonicStormYutu (talk) 14:30, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Track map for Mani?
Hi! Is there a reason that Mani does not have a track map? If not could someone please make one? Cyclonetracker (talk) 19:39, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

An Oquira track map would be ok as well. Hi 022828 (talk) 11:22, 30 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Pinging both and  for this. :)  Typhoon2013  (talk) 20:45, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

track for Mani might not even happen considerting brazillian bulletins are not archived Fleur  De  Odile  21:40, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * , how about Steve Young's Monthly Global Tropical Cyclone Tracks? ABC paulista (talk) 21:52, 11 January 2021 (UTC)


 * data hasn't been updated since June 2020 and might take a long while to update Fleur  De  Odile  22:42, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Impossible. I am the creator of the "Mani subtropical storm" page in Brazil. I was gathering a lot of news about the storm, different contents and links. It happened and reached 4 states, not 2 as reported. André L P Souza (talk) 00:21, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Sources to back up your claim? ABC paulista (talk) 00:41, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Can someone add the newly formed subtropical depression/Soon-to-Be Potira
I saw here the mentioning of a subtropical depression that formed today. I saw it on the Brazilian Navy before reading this. If someone could add it to other systems until it is named Potira that would be wonderful.

I have already added this content on Wikipedia Brazil and the information is not clear yet. I need more time and new reports. André L P Souza (talk) 00:26, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

subtropical storm Mani
I have an image of the approximate trajectory of the storm in Rio de Janeiro and Espírito Santo. Why did they erase? In Brazil, I created the page. André L P Souza (talk) 00:15, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * What dataset did you use to generate that map? It's not specified on its metadata, and without it the image falls in WP:OR. ABC paulista (talk) 00:24, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * It is an approximate trajectory. I found it on the internet and checked it in detail with the news I acquired.

The subtropical storm formed more towards the border between Minas Gerais and Espírito Santo than the photo I acquired. If you can't, then help me create, which I do. The page in Brazil is mine. André L P Souza (talk) 00:32, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Per WP:RS and as consensus by the project, all information about a storm, even the track map, must have reliable sources attached to it, backing up the coordinates and the intensity assigned for each point, at 6-hour intervals. No one did a track map for it yet because no one was able to find such dataset for it. Anything that comes from user's interpretations rather than directly from sources fall into WP:OR, which is prohibited by the guidelines. ABC paulista (talk) 00:39, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

I have reliable sources, news of the damage it caused and the synoptic letters from the Brazilian Navy. I just don't know how to make the graph. André L P Souza (talk) 00:47, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * It's not enough, you need 6-hour interval points with winds and coordinates attached to it. Only advisories and Best Track data can provide such info. Brazilian Navy's advisories operate on 12-hour intervals, incompatible with the project's process. ABC paulista (talk) 00:54, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

The storm formed unusually in October. It's not possible. NOAA has no information on Mani. I couldn't even find my way there, because they were lazy to spread the news. Unfortunately, I only have the approximate graph. André L P Souza (talk) 01:00, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Basically, we have nothing then. Info based on original research is not acceptable per WP:OR. ABC paulista (talk) 01:02, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * For the record, I spoke with the author of the global tropical cyclone tracks on Australian Severe Weather (Steve Young) during the week about Mani and it turns out that he missed it for various personal reasons. He has passed me a track which I have been given permission to share and he will be updating his tracks for October and including it as a special feature in his February 2021 summary. I have passed this track to who may use it to create a track map at some point.Jason Rees (talk) 02:00, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Good news, I got pictures of the original trajectory of the subtropical storm Mani. I got images from MetSul Meteorologia with cartographic projections from the beginning to the end of the storm. How do I send them? André L P Souza (talk) 14:53, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * It's not needed anymore, but you can share the link here. ABC paulista (talk) 16:23, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much for adding Mani's exact trajectory. Thus, the information is very clear to the reader. André L P Souza (talk) 20:16, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

I added the consequences and all the areas that Mani reached. André L P Souza (talk) 19:42, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

subtropical storm oquira
The information on the start date of the storm is wrong, as the Marinha do Brasil does not name depressions. Officially, she graduated on December 28, 2020, not 27. André L P Souza (talk) 00:43, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The start date isn't when the system was named, rather it's when the first advisory was made and/or the first TC point is assigned on the Best Track. In this case, the first advisory was made on late 27th. ABC paulista (talk) 01:00, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Tropical storm 01Q (2021 bomb cyclone)
Let us know that before, this supposed storm, it was an extratropical cyclone, which turned into a bomb cyclone. I have a lot of evidence that this happened and the areas directly affected by it (I don't include the cold front in the description) André L P Souza (talk) 15:10, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Sources? Share it with us. ABC paulista (talk) 16:24, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

I added the information that this supposed tropical storm was once a cyclone bomb. André L P Souza (talk) 17:32, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

I have images from the internet about cartographic projections of the trajectory of storm 01Q in "brasil abaixo de zero". Are they real? André L P Souza (talk) 20:35, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Subtropical depression 2021
I have the synoptic letter from the Marinha do Brasil, informing that the subtropical depression of 2021 became an area of ​​common low pressure on the high seas. Can I send the photo? André L P Souza (talk) 17:53, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, send it. Bóng Ma -  Talk  22:38, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Subtropical Storm Potira
It is absurd for some people to try to ruin this page here. I was the one who added the information about Potira. But now, I can't bring any more details because the page is blocked. Irresponsibles (I quote unauthenticated accounts). The page on Lusophone Wikipedia about the storm, is already created. For me, of course. André L P Souza (talk) 16:03, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I requested page protection because there was an edit war that had exceeded 3RR, and so this was necessary so that it would come to a stop. 🌀CycloneFootball71🏈 |sandbox 16:07, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

, I don't question that. I'm only criticizing those who make unnecessary changes and get in the way of anyone who wants to do something serious. If it weren't for you informing about  01Q  for example, the article would never be on the Portuguese-speaking Wikipedia, also created by me. Thank you for all the information, although the responsibility should be that of the Lusophone. André L P Souza (talk) 16:37, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

I sent an image of NOAA acquired by the MetSul portal of the subtropical storm Potira on Commons. I have also created an image page there. They can enjoy at will. André L P Souza (talk) 18:10, 20 April 2021 (UTC)


 * , I understand. I thought I would just state my reasoning in case there were any doubts. I agree though, there shouldn't have been an edit war over such simple stuff, and because of that, we now have to wait almost 3 more days until we may edit this page again, in which much will change. Thank you for creating an image, and thank you as well for adding on information that may not be as well accessible to editors.🌀CycloneFootball71🏈 |sandbox 22:06, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

, I released information about Potira and she was downgraded to a common low on the high seas
 * Thank you for keeping the info up to date. 🌀CycloneFootball71🏈 |sandbox 02:10, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 20 April 2021
On the new timeline should 1Q be on there? 2A02:C7F:766F:DE00:D8E0:BAB3:E3D2:3920 (talk) 16:05, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:02, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Unlock needed, subtropical currently happening.
I don't know why ‎HurricaneEdgar keeps reverting the page just cause of a new timeline chart being added, but if i can be honest the timeline chart for me is very helpful. now the real problem is we need to UNLOCK this, there is a active storm at this moment , this is the worst time to lick this section. Joshoctober16 (talk) 17:56, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

this discussion should be made to the posteiore. I agree that we should keep an eye on Potira. In the Portuguese-speaking Wikipedia, I am following the storm, I have already described it on WikiData and Commons including. This discussion on account of the graph is unnecessary and hinders the objective here. Serious people wanting to inform like me and many others who take the project seriously. André L P Souza (talk) 18:20, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Timeline
Can you guys please discuss the inclusion of the timeline here so that this page can be unprotected and updated without having to worry about an edit war? I am personally weakly opposed to the timeline since it doesn't quite work the same way as it does for a season article. The date ranges of individual storms don't show up well on a timeline that spans part of four decades. TornadoLGS (talk) 18:10, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree with your stance and what you said after looking more at the timeline. I would also like to note that has simply retired |retired from Wikipedia, due to me leaving a warning on his talkpage about the edit war that occured earlier today. However, I agree that this needs to be discussed, as this edit war was completely unnecessary, and because this can be fixed easier than the warring editors made it out to be. 🌀CycloneFootball71🏈 |sandbox  22:20, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Never-mind, it looks like he decided to return.🌀CycloneFootball71🏈 |sandbox 04:05, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * As per TornadoLGS Said. I am personally weakly opposed to the timeline since it doesn't quite work the same way as it does for a season article. The date ranges of individual storms don't show up well on a timeline that spans part of four decades.   HurricaneEdgar    08:00, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * also no need added the timeline. since the South Atlantic tropical cyclones are unusual weather events that occur in the Southern Hemisphere.  HurricaneEdgar    08:04, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

01Q Pressure
I want to make sure about 01Q's pressure. As NOAA was the one who designated this system as a TS, I just found this link https://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/2021/tdata/satl/01Q.html, which lists it as 997mb (although it seems to be default). Also, 990mb pressure is from MARINHA weather map as far as I remember. I would like to check if it is better to be changed to 997mb or remain at 990mb. Thanks, Luke Kern Choi 5 (talk) 00:02, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

, unfortunately, there is no clear lower pressure on this storm. Climatempo said it had 987 hPa as a cyclone pump. No Brazilian meteorological agency classified it as a tropical storm. In the Lusophone Wikipedia, the information on pressure and wind is from when it was explosive. André L P Souza (talk) 16:12, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

A Subtropical (perhaps Tropical) Cyclone Has Formed Offshore Uruguay
This looks to be a classic warm seclusion embedded within a cold core XTC. It has been designated a 50-knot STC by the Uruguayan Met agency, which has marine responsibility in that portion of the south Atlantic basin. NESDIS is analyzing the core as a full-blown TC. https://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/storms/Invest1.html

I'll try and get the link to the marine advisory from Uruguay. AJC3fromS2K (talk) 03:43, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
 * We follow the data from Brazilian Navy as it is the de facto agency here. 🐱💬 03:53, 29 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I understand this. The problem with that is that the cyclone formed outside of Brazil's AOR. Regardless, Brazil is now recognizing it as a Subtropical Storm.


 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Subtropical_Storm_Offshore_Uruguay.jpg


 * https://www.marinha.mil.br/chm/dados-do-smm-avisos-de-mau-tempo/avisos-de-mau-tempo
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Subtropical_Storm_Marine_Warning.png AJC3fromS2K (talk) 04:08, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Tip: You can use wikilinks for files on Commons like File:Subtropical_Storm_Offshore_Uruguay.jpg (from File:Subtropical_Storm_Offshore_Uruguay.jpg ) without showing the image. 🐱💬 07:26, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Future subtropical storm Raoni
I have some doubts. According to the portals Climatempo and MetSul Meteorologia, the subtropical storm will rise to the coast of Santa Catarina. If so, can he be called Raoni? André L P Souza (talk) 14:06, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

, can you do me a favor? Someone messed up the page and said Cyclone Raoni is tropical. Can you send a notice to the user who did this please? André L P Souza (talk) 16:14, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , pinging only works if it's on the same paragraph of your signing. Also, this issue was already corrected. ABC paulista (talk) 16:22, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
 * NOAA (the official agency in the NORTHERN half of the Atlantic, and the ones who designated '01Q' sometime last/this year) had it as tropical, but yeah Marinha still overrides. ~ AC5230  talk  00:45, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

, in fact, Cyclone Raoni is no longer a storm. The Brazilian Navy has just demoted it to a subtropical depression. Can I add the link here? André L P Souza (talk) 16:53, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

, read above please. André L P Souza (talk) 16:55, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Cyclone Yakecan?
Tenho informações do portal G1 sobre a previsão de um novo ciclone subtropical que atingirá o litoral da Bahia. Cliquem no link: https://g1.globo.com/ba/bahia/noticia/2021/06/29/marinha-emite-alerta-de-ciclone-em-alto-mar-no-sul-da-ba-com-previsao-de-ventos-de-33-kmh.ghtml André L P Souza (talk) 17:50, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Corrigindo, na verdade pode ser Ubá. André L P Souza (talk) 17:51, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
 * , WP:ENGLISHPLEASE. About the subject, let's avoid WP:CRYSTALBALL. ABC paulista (talk) 21:39, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes. Yes. I made a mistake on this matter. I will quote in English. And that I live in Brazil. Here we go: according to the G1, there is the possibility of the formation of a subtropical cyclone in Bahia. But I checked on graphics and satellite images that this information is unlikely. André L P Souza (talk) 21:47, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

read above please. I wrote wrong. André L P Souza (talk) 21:51, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, I'm also brazilian so I did understand what you stated. ABC paulista (talk) 00:01, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Suggestions
Look, I think we could use special information and graphics on this page here, because it's not just the CHM that gives bletins about the special cyclones (subtropical or tropical), the CPTEC and INMET also do, and these bodies are also of the Brazilian government. The official links are: Inmet: https://portal.inmet.gov.br/ Cptec: https://www.cptec.inpe.br/

We could mention these links with reports and put the tropical cyclone info graphic like on the other pages. André L P Souza (talk) 00:13, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Subtropical storm Ubá
The damage and deaths caused by this system were very great. I'm developing his page in Portuguese and then I'll translate it into English, but I need help to develop and better structure this future content. André L P Souza (talk) 20:04, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Article for Subtropical Storm Ubá
I think there should be an article for SS Ubá, as the storm has caused casualties. However, if that's not notable enough, that'd be okay too. --2603:7081:2D01:51E8:38F5:3181:281D:3842 (talk) 00:23, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Personally the system itself doesn't deserve the article and i so far haven't seen the media pick it up(tho im in the USA which is fair) and it shouldn't classify as notable given the fact most of the flooding and damages were caused before the 10th of December when Uba itself formed into a subtropical cyclone. Basically this is another Tropical storm wanda like situation HavocPlayz (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:37, 15 December 2021 (UTC)


 * , I do not agree. The article deserves content. At Lusophone Wikipedia, a person tried to create the content you propose, but it was merged. The subtropical cyclone that caused the storm was responsible for the deaths and was also responsible for the formation of SACZ. The media specialized in meteorology associate Ubá with everything that happened in Bahia and Minas and I will show you in this link (The article is in Portuguese. Please use the translator): https://metsul.com/a-incomum-combinacao-que-trouxe-a-chuva-extrema-na-bahia-e-minas-gerais/ André L P Souza (talk) 03:49, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Even then by Wikipedia standards its not really notable enough. Media did use its "official" name(all names in this region are not official). For what everyone else in the world knows it was a another rare subtropical cyclone like Raoni or Potria HavocPlayz (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 04:51, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Draft
I've released a draft for the (at the time) active storm Subtropical Storm Ubá --Mobius Gerig (talk) 02:02, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Uba subtropical storm track map
Hello everyone, it has information about the exact track of the subtropical cyclone Ubá. Unfortunately, I don't know how to create it and I only have the coordinates of the route. The track in numbers is at this link: André L P Souza (talk) 06:39, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Are you up to it? ABC paulista (talk) 17:00, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I will create one and update the basin map when I have time later today. 🐱💬 00:59, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Subtropical Storm Yakecan
Sorry to inform you, but the storm did not dissipate on the 19 May 2022. But on the 20 May 2022. Unfortunately, I ended up forgetting to archive the CHM page and still put the wrong link. Now, because of my mistake, the synoptic letter that was released simply disappeared from the platform. I apologize for the error. I'm still piecing together the story of the storm, the damage it caused, and the cold snap. André L P Souza (talk) 06:10, 22 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Here is proof of what I reported above: Brazilian Navy synoptic letter. Yours sincerely, André L P Souza (talk) 20:05, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Actually, this chart combined with the May 20th 0000HMG one state that the storm degenerated between May 19th 1200HMG and May 20th 0000HMG, so it did dissipate sometime on late May 19, before 20th. So the disspation date was indeed May 19th. ABC paulista (talk) 01:26, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Proposal: Split off list for List of South Atlantic tropical and subtropical cyclones
This article is starting to get on the long side, which is good, it's been around for a while, as these events start to get better known, and possibly happen more often. Who knows with global warming. Or maybe these storms have been happening for centuries, just like once a decade.

I believe we should split off the list, making it a list along the lines of List of Category 5 Atlantic hurricanes. The list would include all tropical depressions, the subtropical cyclones Brazil warns and names but aren't necessarily "tropical", and ideally some of the 63 storms known to have formed between 1957 and 2007. That would then change the focus of this article to the basin as a whole, much like Atlantic hurricane, and would probably mention the 1991 storm, Catarina, Anita (first formally named), and Iba, since they're all believed to have been tropical cyclones. Any thoughts? ♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 17:08, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Not sure what to make of this proposal as it makes sense on the surface, but I think some more thinking is required about how we deal with these systems.Jason Rees (talk) 01:31, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The proposed list alone could merit its own article, but I don't feel that there's enough content to justify a standalone article for the basin itself. I'd like to see more development on the latter before splitting, so I think it should stay as it is for now. ABC paulista (talk) 16:29, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Me too David-21100! (talk) 19:43, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Inaccurate Subtropical Storm Yakecane Track Map
The track of Yakecane seems to be very inaccurate in the first half of it's life, as Yakecane's precursor never originated that far south, as they instead came from a developing low pressure area from Brazil, that got hooked southwards then occluded. The source that the map uses is tracking an entire different low that eventually merged with Yakecane while undergoing extratropical transition. Also to note, both of the Amazonia images in the Yakecane article showed unrelated storms to Yakecane. I'm a bit surprised that this mistake was up for a year.

I linked to a youtube video from Tropical Cyclone Data Network showing Yakecane's entire life, from start to end. You can see the unrelated low that is being tracked on the map in the video, undergoing a fujiwara effect with Pre-Yakecane as it occludes.

Imagery source-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX9h2WMnnGg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beriddled56 (talk • contribs) 19:28, 17 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The youtube video you provided gives no 6-hour Best Track point intervals to be worked of, and doesn't seem to be backed up by either reputable meteorological agencies or professional meteorologists, so it can't be considered as a reliable source. And it can't supercede the Australia Severe Weather one that was used to generate the map, a long-running website on the matter provided and supported by meteorologist Steve Young. ABC paulista (talk) 19:50, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * MARINHA/Brazilian Navy disagrees with the ASW, as they show a cyclone/low pressure area coming off of Brazil as well which then gets designated at May 17 00z, link provided. You can mess around with the time and day as well, you can see the low that the ASW tracks in May 16 as a low attached to an occluded front.
 * MARINHA's reanalysis PDF found in their website cites that in May 14, the states of Santa Catarina and Rio Grande do Sul were notified for weather events associated with Pre-Yakecane in Table 3. At this time at the track from ASW however, the "precursor" low is sitting at -45.4, -56.7, well too far south for it to threaten those said states.
 * MARINHA table 1 also says that in 12z May 17 Subtropical Storm Yakecane was positioned at 38S,44W, but on the ASW it says -37.3S,-47.3W. Assuming MARINHA's values are correct, ASW's positional values are inaccurate as they are tracking a different system that is in a different location.
 * Although understandable that we are unable to make a more accurate track map as there isnt any other 6 hour best track data, I still believe the data from the ASW shouldn't be used, let Yakecane have no track map for now, or use the one from MARINHA's reanalysis PDF (Google Maps).
 * https://www.marinha.mil.br/chm/dados-do-smm-monitoramento-de-ciclones
 * https://www.marinha.mil.br/chm/dados-do-smm-cartas-sinoticas/cartas-sinoticas?field_data_value%5Bvalue%5D%5Bday%5D=17&field_data_value%5Bvalue%5D%5Bmonth%5D=5&field_data_value%5Bvalue%5D%5Byear%5D=2022&field_horario_value=00HMG Beriddled56 (talk) 20:41, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * In addition, heres a phase diagram from the GFS model in May 14, posted on twitter-
 * https://twitter.com/temposleopoldo/status/1525661035461476352 Beriddled56 (talk) 20:58, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * GFS is a meteorological model, can't be used as source for track per WP:CRYSTALBALL, and doesn't generate BT data, since it generates various simulations through its ensembles. ABC paulista (talk) 21:05, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Since no one is backed up by the WMO on the region over such matters, no reliable source has precedence over each other on this, and since they are disinct agencies they are pretty much guaranteed to have divergences between their datasets, although the differences in positions are pretty minor compared to similar cases, with just one or two degrees of difference on the same point.
 * And since Brazilian Navy's Best Track can't be used here and don't comply with WMO's standards, it was chosen to use the ASW ones which does follow the international standards, was already used before here and is similar enough to the brazilian one. ABC paulista (talk) 21:04, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Understandable, but I think its best if the first ~24-48 hours of the track ( right before the loop ) gets chopped off from the map, as it is incorrect and can be easily proven via imagery. The rest of the track by the AWS can remain intact as it is similar to MARINHA and provided imagery. Beriddled56 (talk) 21:09, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * meant 78 hours* as the first 13 points extending southwards could be removed. Beriddled56 (talk) 21:13, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The percursor system was included in ASW BT but wasn't in Brazilian's one, and the lack of such on the latter can't be used to disprove the former per WP:PROVEIT, and on their TCR, the Brazilian Navy stated that its percursor came from METAREA V's south portion on May 15 and 16, but never specified if the system formed there of existed prior entering that area.
 * And one cannot use satellite imagery to check data since inferring one from such would fall on WP:OR. ABC paulista (talk) 21:23, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Beriddled56 (talk • contribs) 21:02, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Potential split of article
Seeing as this article is only getting larger (as of this comment, it's nearly 100K bytes long), I propose to split it into sub-articles which would be: Pre-1991 SAtl seasons, 1991-2001 SAtl seasons, etc.. However, I'd prefer to get info from the community before undergoing this split. Could you share your thoughts about it? &#39;&#39;Flux55&#39;&#39; (talk) 06:57, 16 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Very good idea! maybe we should make even individual seasons wiki each year David-21100! (talk) 16:18, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * There's not enough content for n individual article for each year, but I could agree on giving the systems list its own article. It's the largest section on this article, so it should be the part to be separated form this one. ABC paulista (talk) 16:35, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I support a List of South Atlantic tropical and subtropical cyclones, as it parallels the type of article we see in other basins. The main article could then be summarized to include sections for history (Catarina, Brazilian Navy starting warnings in 2011), a list of the named storms (past and the current list), a section for the most intense, and the deadliest. Hurricanehink mobile (talk) 20:24, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * this is a good idea too but there will be no space for detailed information and storm tracks David-21100! (talk) 15:45, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Most of the storms were short-lived and had little human impact, so there's not much to write about them individually to begin with. ABC paulista (talk) 21:34, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Yea that all belongs in the list article. 16:29, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 * maybe 2020-2025 just a example David-21100! (talk) 15:44, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 * still having little content would be acceptable, but your idea still seems better David-21100! (talk) 15:53, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 * 2020-2025 would be too short IMO. Hurricanehink mobile (talk) 16:29, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, so should we do this now? David-21100! (talk) 15:55, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should create the list now 2804:14D:683:4880:8CD0:5CE5:D432:FF4D (talk) 19:05, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay. Flux55 (my talk page) 23:52, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I suggest that this page becomes something like the explanation of the low occurrence, and the new page will become a list of the events David-21100! (talk) 15:33, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 * But who will create the page? David-21100! (talk) 16:35, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Maybe start with a sandbox so the new page is done right? ♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 20:13, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
 * ok! but who will create it David-21100! (talk) 12:49, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

I made Draft:List of South Atlantic tropical and subtropical cyclones, basically formatting it as a season list, but including "other storms" for each decade, plus having a section just for the 1900s. I don't want to publish the draft until someone adds a lead, and someone figures out what the main article is going to be, considering how much of the content is to be split off. ♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 20:56, 4 March 2024 (UTC)


 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_retired_Atlantic_hurricane_names i think we should do something like this David-21100! (talk) 00:21, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Go ahead and make a sandbox how you think it should look. Hurricanehink mobile (talk) 02:19, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

ESSA-8 Satellite Image from 10 JAN 1970
I have a satellite image (.jpg) from the ESSA-8 (POES) satellite flyover of the south Atlantic cyclone mentioned in this article. Some will find it historically significant, since it might be the first known satellite image of a south Atlantic STC/TC in existence, so I wanted to get a consensus whether I should upload it to Wikimedia Commons. I wanted to get some input whether it would be useful for me to upload it to Wikimedia Commons for inclusion in this article. There shouldn't be any copyright issues, since it belongs to the U.S. Weather Bureau, which became the National Weather Service later that year. Thanks. Tony Cristaldi NWS Meblourne FL (retired) AJC3fromS2K (talk) 19:37, 16 February 2024 (UTC)


 * I went ahead and uploaded it for consideration. Here's a link to the image:
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1970_South_Atlantic_Cyclone.jpg
 * AJC3fromS2K (talk) 19:49, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Triopical Storm Akará
Hello everybody. I have information about Akará's trajectory, published on CHM's Facebook. However, I don't know if the social network link is reliable. Here is the CHM report, which in Portuguese is "Serviço Meteorológico Marinho". I'll show you the link: https://www.facebook.com/100064519129038/posts/pfbid02pCSYu7ENiGNGnwDEk6NgMLpgpGV8EXJTEx7oqEFdQ4hsxyDGsmZ1J74TDHmpziZnl/?app=fbl André L P Souza (talk) 19:36, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Tropical storm Akará deserves an article
Do you think it's a good idea to Akara your own article?

The storms in this basin are getting more common?
as time goes by I´ve noticed that systems are getting a bit more common in this ocean do you guys have an explanation for this? Bludzvi (talk) 13:57, 10 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Maybe global warming? 2804:14D:683:4880:D193:CF57:E571:A26D (talk) 19:39, 12 March 2024 (UTC)