Talk:The Fray

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Archive
I've created a an archive for this page - done by subject. Pretty standard - except if you want to add a new link, start it out with " Talk:The_Fray/A_... " - the "A_" indicates that it's an archive. daniel folsom ©  18:33, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 * There's no "B". Lara  Love  01:53, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh wow, sorry bout that - done.-- daniel  folsom  02:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Singles
I think She Is is being released as a single?? �58.170.188.227 05:57, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Unless you have a source then what you think doesn't really make a difference...-- daniel  folsom  02:11, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

It says on the billboard site (http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/discography/index.jsp?pid=665225&aid=1056757) that it was released as a single. It didn't chart but it was released. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.213.22 (talk) 08:56, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

How are they indie or alternative?
Not to start an argument, but Epic and Sony are kind of directly opposed to the indie aesthetic. 209.6.170.137 02:26, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. I removed "Alternative rock and indie rock" from their genre, but someone undid it within a few minutes. Tezkag72 (talk) 15:45, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I corrected the genre section. I replaced indie rock with adult contemporary, which is true and fitting. This is a band that never toured independently and whose career was launched, practically overnight, from airplay on a Clear Channel radio station. Not to knock the band, but there is essentially nothing in their history that could be considered indie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonfrailey (talk • contribs) 01:49, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Christian genre
The Fray says in an interview that they are all Christians and they are a faith-based band but don't like playing with Christian bands to a Christian audience because the audience is already Christian, and they don't have a chance to change lives. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.220.1.24 (talk • contribs) 00:41, 6 August 2007 ).
 * A) the Fray have said they're all Christian - that's true, in fact I'm pretty sure we say that in the article. B) They aren't a christian band - that's also true (as you said). we also say this in the article. C) The audience is Christian - that's not true- I haven't seen that in any report and I sincerely doubt such a statement would have been made. However, the fact that the Fray say they aren't a Christian band means we can't classify them as a Christian band -it's not our right to choose, it's their's.-- daniel  folsom  19:54, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you missed his point. He was saying that the Fray would rather not play to a Christian audience because they won't have the life changing impact like they could possibly have if they played in front of a non Christian audience.  To assume that you could ever have a whole audience that is Christian is extremely naive ha, but that was what he was trying to say i think.  -Brad 128.175.81.47 (talk) 01:14, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I think they are a Christian but they mix it up so the can reach non christians like many other bands have. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.29.159.58 (talk) 16:26, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Even if all of the members are Christian, I do not agree that they should be classified as a Christian band. Regardless of their stated reasons, their intent is to market the music to a mainstream audience, they are accepted by a mainstream audience and primary derive airplay on mainstream, secular radio stations.  The music is neither directed toward Christians nor overtly praise/proselytizing.  As far as faith goes, it is more a theme which does not necessarily aim to convert (example: "You Found Me" is a song about betrayal and hurt from faith).  But your and my interpretation is irrelevent and "original research."  Since this is Wikipedia, if you claim they are a Christian band, that information must come from a verifiable source.  That is sufficient to cast doubt on the label from inclusion in this article.69.229.38.187 (talk) 06:45, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, I agree with the compromise of a band with Christian influences. I find it odd that they sometimes deny that they are a Christian band and yet other times they say that they are faith based. Issac Slade visited our church in 2006 and he spoke about how his music brings him closer to God and that his music was his ultimate praise for him. I have my own suspicions that they deny it to appease the recording labels in order to appeal to a wider audience, but that's just speculation on my part and nothing more. Eros2250 (talk) 18:53, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:The Fray - Vienna.ogg
Image:The Fray - Vienna.ogg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Christian faith section
Why was ut removed when its a very important part of the artical? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.161.161.30 (talk) 22:43, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Sereously! Not many people know that all the members are christian and not many christians know there not a christian band.So it is very important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.119.75.4 (talk) 21:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

If you can't spell right, how can we take your critique seriously? 67.166.57.119 (talk) 16:27, 7 December 2008 (UTC) By the way, I am a member, I just forgot to log in before posting. Binglebongle2000 (talk) 16:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay, and yes, they are a christian band, but it's never been explicitly stated, therefore (as they say they aren't a christian band and we have no right to choose) the section was taken out. Sorry! YelloCello (talk) 16:33, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:The Fray - Over My Head (Cable Car).ogg
The image Image:The Fray - Over My Head (Cable Car).ogg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --09:13, 1 November 2008 (UTC) They do stat that the band played on Chrisitian stations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.100.109.133 (talk) 06:44, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Thornton
The Fray is from Thornton. This has been confirmed, I got in a large debate over this with another Wikipedian, and it was confirmed that they are in fact from Thornton, CO. I have put this in the article, also giving an idea of where Thornton for those unfamiliar to the Denver Metro Area. YelloCello (talk) 02:44, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Links? I've been wondering how a band can really be from someplace very specific unless it's where they're based out of. Which is a bit why I'm wondering why Greeley is listed as their origin. Prk166 (talk) 19:50, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Discography
I propose we make a special "The Fray Discography" page. Chastayo (talk) 22:14, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Currently, the article does not appear overlong and the discography section is not a major contributor to the length of the article. What is you basis for the suggestion?-- The Red Pen of Doom  22:34, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The majority of other artists have this page, even if they don't have an extensive discography section. One example: Paramore discography. The Fray is a very popular band and should have a discography page. Chastayo (talk) 00:06, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) I diagree with your claim that "most other artists have one no matter the length of the discography." 2) Some like Paramore may indeed have one, but that doesnt mean that they actually SHOULD have one. And 3) even if another band SHOULD have one, that doesnt imply that this one should have one too. 4) "The Fray is popular" is not an argument that convinces me at all either.
 * So far, I haven't heard any logical reason that convinces me that a new discography article is needed. -- The Red Pen of Doom  01:02, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't know your guidelines as to what constitutes a discography page, so if popularity and other Wikipedia examples doesn't justify the page what does? Chastayo (talk) 13:41, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * From looking at [|this], I believe The Fray has released enough albums/singles now that they constitute a band that has "a list of contributions to music." Chastayo (talk) 13:49, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * At the moment, I can think of 2 reasons: 1) the discography of the artist is long enough or complex enough that as a stand alone discography article would feel like a complete article and not a stub. 2) the article about the band itself has reached a size that it is beginning to feel excessively long and difficult to navigate through and we are looking for "daughter articles"  topics to spin off as stand alone. There may be other reasons, but "The Fray should have one cause otherwise they dont seem special" is not part of the calculation. --  The Red Pen of Doom  14:28, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe a Discography page for The Fray would allow to add specific sales numbers, as well as how 1) their current album exceeded critical reception, and/or 2) that three songs ("Absolute," "Never Say Never," and "Syndication") charted on Billboards without actually being released, an uncommon event. Chastayo (talk) 14:32, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * If we have reliable sources to support such additional content, that sounds like a great reason to create a new article! -- The Red Pen of Doom  14:39, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * All right! I'll start this article as soon as possible/when I find these verifications! I'm glad we came to an agreement, and thank you for telling me about the "Other Crap" policy! Chastayo (talk) 14:41, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned references in The Fray
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of The Fray's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "RS": From How to Save a Life:  From U2: The Immortals: The First Fifty. Rolling Stone (24 March 2004). Retrieved on 8 February 2008. 

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 16:47, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

GA
This is just a note to say that I might pick this up if it's renominated once the concerns have been met. Feel free to drop a note on my talk page when it's ready and I'll fast-track it. HJ Mitchell |  Penny for your thoughts?   01:30, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Members
I have created a much-needed "band members" section and I listed the former members, but I do not know what instrument that they played. Can anyone provide this information? • GunMetal Angel  04:45, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Well that's done, but now I have another question. ; This band doesn't have a bassist? • GunMetal Angel  20:00, 25 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The band has no permanent bassist as of now. They keep hiring temporary bassists for tours - it was mentioned in a previous edition of the article, but someone seems to have edited it. Steed Asprey - 171 (talk) 11:58, 13 November 2010 (UTC)


 * In the band members section I would suspect that these touring bass players deserve to be mentioned, whether famous or not. - GunMetal Angel  20:05, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Correct. I have added those members' names again. As I said, it was mentioned in a previous edition of the article. No problems now I guess. Steed Asprey - 171 (talk) 07:22, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Contradiction
The 'Formation and Early years' section says

"Slade's younger brother Caleb on bass to the band. Caleb was the band's first (and only official) bass player but was eventually asked to leave"

but the band members section has Former members

* Mike Ayars – bass guitar (2002–2004) * Dan Battenhouse - bass guitar (2002) * Zach Johnson - drums (2002–2003) * Caleb Slade - lead guitar (2002–2003)

If Caleb was the only official bass player, why are Mike Ayars and Dan Battenhouse credited here as bass players, and Caleb as a lead guitarist? Exxolon (talk) 00:22, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the issue is resolved now. It was a typo I think, whoever mentioned Caleb as a lead guitarist. Steed Asprey - 171 (talk) 07:22, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

about them being a Christian band....
http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/artists/TheFray.asp The message just above the discography might be worth incorporating into the article, particularly to the section that talks about them being a Christian band.--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 20:38, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I would just like to point out that, at the link above, Jesusfreakhideout says quote, "As of early 2011, The Fray has been exhibiting behavior (including using profanity and mocking fans who question their usage of it) that JFH does not support. In response to this, we have removed them from the Artists Database and will cease covering the band indefinitely."

THIS needs to be incorporated into the article.RhettGedies (talk) 20:37, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

External links modified January 2016
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130219175153/http://www.billboard.com:80/articles/columns/chart-beat/268564/chart-beat-kris-allen-swv-green-day-al-b-sure to http://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/chart-beat/268564/chart-beat-kris-allen-swv-green-day-al-b-sure

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External links modified February 2016
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on The Fray. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110417011341/http://www.billboard.com:80/bbcom/esearch/chart_display.jsp?cfi=379&cfgn=Singles&cfn=The+Billboard+Hot+100&ci=3103227&cdi=10060072&cid=03%2F17%2F2009 to http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/esearch/chart_display.jsp?cfi=379&cfgn=Singles&cfn=The+Billboard+Hot+100&ci=3103227&cdi=10060072&cid=03%2F17%2F2009

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Genre
Just because they are all Christian and have played in front of Christian audiences doesn't make them a "Christian Rock" band. None of their released material falls under any sort of Christian genre. SlaniCraft (talk) 20:35, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * That's not why some reviewers consider them Christian rock. They have released in the Christian marketplace, have had their music consistently reviewed by media that caters to the Christian music industry and we have three RSes that refer to the issue. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:43, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/5ljfiEv05?url=http://www.grammy.com/grammy_awards/52nd_show/list.aspx to http://www.grammy.com/grammy_awards/52nd_show/list.aspx
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091008140557/http://www.sonybmg.com.au/news/details.do?newsId=20030829004122 to http://www.sonybmg.com.au/news/details.do?newsId=20030829004122
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100208082123/http://www.ariacharts.com.au/pages/charts_display_singles.asp?chart=1U50 to http://www.ariacharts.com.au/pages/charts_display_singles.asp?chart=1U50
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101028220406/http://fmqb.com/Article.asp?id=16691 to http://fmqb.com/Article.asp?id=16691

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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060715181706/http://blogs.usatoday.com/listenup/2006/07/first_half_sale.html to http://blogs.usatoday.com/listenup/2006/07/first_half_sale.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120510001418/http://stylusmagazine.com/reviews/the-fray/how-to-save-a-life.htm to http://www.stylusmagazine.com/reviews/the-fray/how-to-save-a-life.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100214155057/http://www.thefray.net/ to http://www.thefray.net/

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External links modified
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I have just modified 5 external links on The Fray. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091213211122/http://www.reverb.org/partners/artists-2 to http://www.reverb.org/partners/artists-2
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090303093533/http://www.denvermagazine.com/culture/2008/10/fray-take-2 to http://www.denvermagazine.com/culture/2008/10/fray-take-2
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081023034918/http://rodblackhurst.com/main.html to http://www.rodblackhurst.com/main.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100302184740/http://blog.thefray.net/us/news/deluxe-edition-ithe-frayi-out-now to http://blog.thefray.net/us/news/deluxe-edition-ithe-frayi-out-now
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20070823233109/http://www.musicianforums.com/album.php?albumid=4123 to http://www.musicianforums.com/album.php?albumid=4123

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Performance and critical reception?
As the article is now (August 29, 2021), a disproportionately large chunk of each time period section is dedicated to the corresponding studio album's popular chart performance and its critical reviews. What are your thoughts on moving these chunks into a new, dedicated section? What should the section be called and where should it be placed? Any and all thoughts are welcome. ~ JDCAce (talk) 00:16, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Flat vs. multiline citations
Preface: For all Wikipedians reading this, please feel free to weigh in, even though I am calling out a single editor. I chose him only because he voiced his dissent first. I'm interested in the opinion of everyone equally, whether that be in support of or against my opinion.

Thanks for reviewing my changes, Walter Görlitz. I would like to respond to your edit summary given on your recent edit.

Would you provide some more insight into why flat citations should be used over multiline citations? These are my opinions why I believe multiline citations are occasionally better:
 * Multiline is significantly easier to read than flat, especially when there are multiple citations written back-to-back. The intermediate tags are much easier to find and thus the multiple citation templates are easier to differentiate.
 * When I want to inspect a citation's parameter information but I wish to ignore the url or archive-url values, it is easier to skip to the next parameter by moving my eyes to the next line than it is to carefully parse the URL visually, looking for its end. (The spaces I added to many flat citations makes doing this much easier than it was before, but it's still not as easy as skipping the URL's line in a multiline.)
 * From what I read earlier today (which gave me the idea to do explode the citations), multiline citations make it easier to follow changes in the diff display, though I interpreted your edit summary to mean they make it harder to follow. As I said, I just began this practice today, so I haven't seen for myself if that is the case, but it does appear to be so: Each line in a multiline citation appears as its own entry in the diff, so the diff doesn't show the entire paragraph which the citation is within.
 * Though now, as I write this, I can envision how this may make it more difficult: If a single line is edited in a multiline citation, it could be difficult to identify exactly which citation to which that edit was performed. Is that true? On the other hand, the diff does include the two lines above and the two lines below every edited line, so perhaps it's not the case. Again, I haven't had the chance to see this in action for myself.

That final (potential) drawback aside, does it alone outweigh the benefits of multiline citations I listed above? I'm not certain, but I would lean toward no, it doesn't, as an editor could search the source text using the browser; in the worst-case scenario where there are multiple hits from the search, an editor could use the line numbers supplied in the diff. I realize using those line numbers would be a hassle, but so, too, would having to carefully parse a citation by hand (by eye?) to determine where each parameter is and where each citation ends when multiple are placed in a row.

Thank you for your time. I certainly won't start an edit war over this, but without fully understanding your point of view, I find it likely I will continue using multiline citations in other articles, at least on citations I add to the article myself. (However, I'll put a moratorium on this practice for at least a week or until I hear from you.) ~ JDCAce (talk) 05:42, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The only reason to retain flat refs is MOS:STYLERET. You did not change all, and so the mix is problematic.
 * The other problem was that it was nearly impossible to determine your changes because of how differences are determined and where you inserted unnecessary breaks. That was really my goal. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:45, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. While my line breaks were unnecessary, I still do feel they do more good than harm, though not under these circumstances. I definitely do agree the diff for the initial change from flat to multiline did look absolutely horrendous. Speaking of change, you're absolutely right that my inclusion of multiline citations broke the retained style, which I try to never do. Additionally, the mix of flat and multiline broke the standardization of the page. I don't know what I was thinking; I strive for standardization. I suppose I thought non-visual standards (such as citation template appearance) were exempt from that, but I don't know why I thought that.
 * Once again, thanks for reviewing my edit, and thanks for correcting my mistakes. Happy editing! ~ JDCAce &#124; user &#124; talk &#124; contributions ~ 06:54, 30 August 2021 (UTC)