Talk:Tyla (South African singer)/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Requested move 12 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) Edward-Woodrow • talk 21:26, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

– The English Tyla is an instrumentalist/musician who utilizes vocals, whereas the South African Tyla is primarily a singer. Alternatively, we could have the English Tyla be renamed to "Tyla (English singer)" and the SA singer remain the same. Ever since the article for the SA singer was made in April of this year, its almost always had more pageviews, especially in the last month, and it is likely to escalate as her career starts taking off. —cybertrip👽 ( 💬 • 📝) 10:57, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please lock this Artist wikipedia

Tyla clearly has some crazy fans, please lock her Wikipedia so no harm can be done. Also she can correct anything herself it’s her platform. 41.169.139.186 (talk) 05:53, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 24 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Lightoil (talk) 20:16, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Tyla (South African singer) → Tyla (singer) –  was initially "Tyla (singer)" then moved to a disambiguation section where there is no subject named "Tyla (... singer)" dxneo (talk) 13:31, 18 November 2023 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). 162 etc. (talk) 02:30, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Tyla (singer) is the stable article title, per the September 2023 RM. The undiscussed move to Tyla (South African singer) should be reverted. 162 etc. (talk) 22:00, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
@Robertsky: The November 2023 RM you referenced above concerned Tyla (English musician), not this article. 162 etc. (talk) 22:04, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
@162 etc. read the discussion. In it, it reverses the move for the South African singer's article as well (of which should have been handled by extending the discussion and converting to a multi-page moves discussion per WP:EXPLICIT). – robertsky (talk) 03:38, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
WP:EXPLICIT asks us to list every proposed move in the request. Tyla (singer) was not part of the request. Therefore, it needs to be reverted; a new RM can then be opened. 162 etc. (talk) 17:29, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
Nope, it should remain where it is, absent a fresh RM or a MRV. The closer determined that there was consensus to move it back.  — Amakuru (talk) 20:24, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
I urge you (and other editors) to look at the November RM again. The closer determined there was consensus to move Tyla (musician) → Tyla (English musician) - that's it. The close made no mention of Tyla (singer), nor was Tyla (singer) included in the nomination. Revert. 162 etc. (talk) 22:42, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
A move like this barring further discussion with the closer or MRV is akin to asking us to WP:MOVEWAR, imo. Let me restate my position: discuss with the closer or MRV. If MRV, I would likely support a reopening or reversion on basis that the lack of explicit nomination violated the spirit of EXPLICIT. Sidenote: it might be prudent to state why such request is incomplete and what happens if other pages not explicitly nominated are being discussed. But it is probably a discussion for the RM talk page. – robertsky (talk) 22:54, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
@Illusion Flame: I think we need to hear your side of the story. 162 etc. (talk) 03:17, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
Not sure what more to add here. I closed the RM as moved with 4 good, policy based arguements. Multiple of the voters also requested the other move be made, so I performed that to. I am not opposed to opening up a separate discussion however. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 03:22, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
As I commented above, "The close made no mention of Tyla (singer), nor was Tyla (singer) included in the nomination." This is explicitly addressed at WP:RMCI: "when closing a move request do not move articles that have not been nominated to be moved". 162 etc. (talk) 07:57, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
Yes, procedurally I dare say that's a valid point. In general I agree that any page under threat of being moved should have that move explicitly noted on their own talk page so that interested parties can participate. However, the contention that it was an "undiscussed move" is nonetheless not correct. The page was moved as a result of an RM discussion, formally closed as such by Illusion Flame with what they deemed to be consensus. Any request to revert the move and re-discuss should go through them, or to MRV, not made unilaterally, even if the situation does appear to be against the written instructions. From what I can gather above, IF might very well be open to moving it back and having a new discussion on the specific question of the Tyla (singer) issue.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:01, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
Since this hasn't been formally contested, oppose. In the RM, it wasn't tagged b/c that page wasn't expected to be moved, but there was a clear consensus for that move. Reverting that move would be pure bureaucracy. No prejudice against another RM. Queen of Hearts ❤️ (no relation) 06:53, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
I definitely agree with this actually... and having just read Talk:Tyla_(South_African_singer)#Requested move 12 September 2023 a bit more carefully, I actually think that close was a misreading of the consensus there. The two !votes which on the fact of it say "support", actually both caveat it with saying they'd probably move the English singer away from the prior Tyla (singer) title, but that they would also support retaining the South African singer at the fully disambiguated title. So all in all, the case for moving Tyla (South African singer) to Tyla (singer) again appears weak. I'm not even sure who actively supports that move, other than for procedural reasons...  — Amakuru (talk) 10:29, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
Clearly contested by Queen of Hearts. EggRoll97 (talk) 00:41, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The lede paragraph of the entry for Tyla (English musician) states, "As well as performing vocals...", thus confirming that the English musician is also a singer. As a result, "Tyla (singer)" represents incomplete disambiguation and should redirect, as it currently does, to the Tyla#People disambiguation page, alongside "Tyla (musician)". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 09:45, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Incomplete disambiguation. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:13, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose, the additional disambiguation is necessary here. BegbertBiggs (talk) 18:00, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Tyla ancestry fact checking thread.

Thread to fact check and debate validity of information on singer's ethnic and cultural background. Please note that articles and blog posts that reference this Wikipedia page are not reliable sources, as they have obtained their information from this page. Using such citations is considered in violation of Wikipedia's gaming rules, and if repeated could constitute a potential ban due to vandalism. Information on ethnic heritage must follow these rules: 1. Edits regarding ethnic heritage must be confirmed by the singer themselves, can include quotes directly from interviews or any of the celebrity's social media, including videos published by the celebrity themselves providing information. This rule is to ensure that such sensitive information is as accurate as possible, and personal racial biases are not influencing information presented in citation. African pride479 (talk) 12:14, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi African pride479, thank you for starting this thread. The source you are referring to (Glamour) was published before this article even existed, therefore cannot have references this page. Otherwise WP:SELFPUBLISHED sources such as the YouTube video you provided is not encouraged as per WP:BLPRS. I must add that in that video, Tyla states she is of Zulu ancestry, but only describes the Bantu knots as a Xhosa hairstyle, thus not claiming that she herself is of Xhosa ancestry. Until we can find another interview or reliable source where she describes her ancestry, it must remain "Indian, Zulu, Mauritian and Irish" as per the Glamour source. —cybertrip👽 ( 💬 • 📝) 16:17, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
As a real african with proficient reading comprehension skills, I will tell you that Bantu knots are NOT a traditional Xhosa hairstyle, and neither was that stated by Tyla... The style originates with the Bantu people, to which it was named after. Tyla, in her tiktok states that the beaded necklace she is wearing was created by her grandmother, and is worn in traditional Xhosa festivals. Heavily implying that she still practices her indigenous Xhosa culture.
Her Xhosa lineage, as well as Zulu, was re-edited back into the Wikipedia.
As between her official statements on her official Tiktok account, and the glamour article, only one provides direct quotes from the celebrity on her lineage. African pride479 (talk) 00:15, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
This is the statement that is up for debate and needs proper verification "Indian, Zulu, Mauritian and Irish" The glamour blog seems to be referenceing It's information from a third party. Rather than the glamour article containing the interview itself that discloses this information, It simply state said As fact while using twitter comments as references/citations. This brings the validity of that particular statement into question.
I have said this once, and I will repeat myself as I continue to fight for her stated lineage to remain on this Wikipedia page, and not be white washed or minimized, "The best source is the celebrity themselves"
To avoid inaccuracy on living people, Please cite the exact interview transcript to where glamour pulled this information.
If glamour is the one who interviewed her, That means the Transcript of that interview should be available online. If glamour is not the one that interviewed her comma and in fact, pulled this particular information from a third party source, That still means that the transcript of the interview presenting this exact information should still be available online.
Please include official interview where this information is stated, rather than a Blog post that does not cite where information was gathered, and uses tweets as references
Request: Find original source material where "Indian, Zulu, Mauritian and Irish" is directly quoted from the mouth of the celebrity."
please provide direct link to interview.
Until this can be provided, and verified as quoted from the celebrity, the Glamour Blog cited remains an invalid source for information on a living person. African pride479 (talk) 00:34, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Also excuse these typos, because I am using voice to text. I am inviting those who have an issue with the changes that I have made to a proper debate on this change.
If you have the original interview to refute my change, then please present.
If you cannot present that. then my change remains.
Until then, this states by Glamour remains hearsay, Where as my changes are directly quoted from the celebrity themselves. African pride479 (talk) 00:42, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Tossing the terms "black" and "coloured" aside, Because these are european terms used to describe us that don't make any damn sense, let's use the term "indigenous" African people, so I can better illustrate what is going on here in these edits.
You guys want to distance her from her indigenous african heritage That she is very vocal about being proud of. She is indigenous south african. You want to minimize her indigenous identity, and emphasis non african ethnic groups when describing her, and even throwing a hissy fit in the edits "Shes not black! Shes coloured" Because identifying her in the slightest bit with black people bothers you.
That's why right now, i'm tossing both terms out of the window and referring to her, and all of us in the diaspera by what we are. Indigenous African people and descendants of indigenous African people.
Now! Denying her Xhosa and zulu heritage that she wears and expresses PROUDLY, clearly identifying with her INDIGENOUS african identity and roots is whats triggering people.
Thats why Im here to make sure that we are not over here minimizing her Xhosa/Bantu and Zulu identity for the sake of our own racial biases. Or white washing her in an underhanded attempt To distance her from that identity that we all seem to be very uncomfortable with her embracing.
Stop trying to white wash this girl, and acknowledge her indigenous Xhosa/bantu and Zulu culture and identity. African pride479 (talk) 09:58, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Edit:
Also excuse these typos, because I am using voice to text. I am inviting those who have an issue with the changes that I have made to a proper debate on this change.
If you have the original interview, with this exact quote from Tyla herself, to refute my change, then please cite it.
If you cannot present that citation, then my change remains.
Until then, this statement made by Glamour remains hearsay, Where as my changes are directly quoted from the celebrity themselves African pride479 (talk) 00:44, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
And correction on my previous post, Xhosa is indeed Bantu. Well would you look at that? I stand to correct myself.
Now we both can laugh at ourselves for our ignorance.
Now... Let me correct you again, but this time we'll be more informed.
Xhosa is a Bantu Ethnic group. That means Bantu knots are traditional to every african descent person who is Bantu as well. She also stated that the necklace that shes wearing is worn during Xhosa festivals/special events.
So guess what that means? If her grandmother is participating Xhosa traditions and culture and passing it down to Tyla?
It means that Tyla is Xhosa.
Summary: Tyla shows off traditional African hairstyle called Bantu knots. Traditional to all african people's of Bantu lineage, to which Tyla is, as she is from the Xhosa, which is a Bantu ethnic group. Further displaying her pride and love in her Bantu/Xhosa lineage, she shows off beautiful traditional Xhosa beading, that is worn for cultural events.
Want to know how I was able to correct myself? When I click on the "Xhosa" link on this Wikipedia page lol.
Look at how properly quoting what she said about her own ethnicity, ended up educating both of us in the end. African pride479 (talk) 05:59, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
It's all starting to click now. Now i'm starting to see why you guys were trying to suppress that she's Xhosa. Why you are trying to deny her Xhosa lineage, despite the fact that she clearly is very proud of her Xhosa identity, and culture. That's because when you click on the hyperlink for Xhosa,It goes into detail about it being a Bantu ethnic group...
Both Xhosa and zulu are indigenous to south africa...
Clicking on the hyper-links of Xhosa and Zulu go into detail about their african cultures.
When I checked the edit history for this page, I remember somebody saying something along the lines of "She's not black!!! She's coloured..."
Now, i'm starting to understand the pathology of the people who keep trying to edit this out. You erroneously believed that calling her "coloured" meant that she's not "black" in the sense that you guys understand the term. Then you guys went on emphasize indian and Irish, Which is not quoted, and just yet briefly mentioning Zulu...
You are attempting to white wash her and minimize her african heritage.
You guys were sneakily trying to white wash her or distance her from "blackness" in your minds.
So much so to the point that you guys want to suppress that the girl is Xhosa... Because Xhosa is indigenous Bantu ethnic group. You want to deny her black ancestry, which is the majority of what she is, so by extention you are denying her Xhosa identity.
You dont want to acknowledge her indigenous African identity. You literally just outright denied that she's Xhosa.
I think you need to evaluate the source of your cognitive dissonance surrounding her indigenous African identity.
You guys are literally trying to white wash her. To the point where she is screaming from the roof tops That she is proud to be south african, and she is proud of her indigenous Xhosa/Bantu and Zulu heritage, and you guys instead try to emphasis "Irish and indian" and thought in your head that "coloured" distanced her from other original/indigenous people's of Africa.
Its giving anti-African/Anti-black African pride479 (talk) 09:43, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Also to drive my point home. Here is a quote from someone who decided to retract my edits:
Username: 2403:5801:98D4:0:F58E:A809:18CA:159D
"She's not black, she's coloured (a distinct community in South Africa who are descendants of Black South Africans, White South Africans and Asian (Indian) South Africans."
Then we have people saying that she's NOT Xhosa and intentionally trying to minimize that identity.
So like I said...
Confusing made up european labels aside, I am going to fight for you guys not to minimize her Xhosa/Bantu and zulu culture/heritage that she celebrates and takes pride in.
When you hear her saying that she is a proud south african just know that she is saying she proud of not just being born there, but being among the original people's of South Africa. African pride479 (talk) 10:12, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
I am literally a coloured person from South Africa, not trying to minimize anyone's racial identity. All I'm doing is ensuring reliable sourcing and no hyperlinks as per Wikipedia policy. Thanks. —cybertrip👽 ( 💬 • 📝) 10:44, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Oh, is that true? Is her tiktok video that you guys are trying to suppress for the sake of white washing her, and minimizing the African heritage shes proud of, not a more valid source than a third party Glamour blog, and Wikipedia links?
Let me point out the hypocrisy that is going on over here for the sake of whitewashing this girl. You guys posted a link that has several videos and tiktoks in it, Completely unrelated to a personal life just the highlight tiktok drama in regards to her identity.
Block post written by third parties on the celebrity...
But... Her OFFICIAL tiktok account where she was DISCOVERED can't be linked because her expressing pride in her heritage in that video counters your attempts to white wash her.
Once again this fight over her ethnicity in this editing section is riddled with anti-black/anti-african biases and attitudes from the editors.
That much is clear to see from the editing history.
You guys literally removed my Xhosa and Zulu edits multiple times, Said "She's not black! She's coloured". Then attempted to distance her from her indigenous Bantu/Xhosa and zulu lineages, by flat out saying "The hairstyle is Xhosa, but SHES not."
Yes she is, and she takes pride in that.
Also... We are anonymous, You could very well be a white dude Claiming to be south african just to validate you and others here attempting to white wash this girl, and minimize her indigenous South African identity. African pride479 (talk) 19:30, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
So like I said... How are you claiming to be indigenous south african, and so blatantly anti Xhosa, and Rather than showing pride for her also being Indigenous, turning around and trying to suppress that information? It's not adding up, Gerald/Karen. African pride479 (talk) 20:51, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
The reason why Im going into such detail while fighting you guys here is to expose what was going on over here on this Wikipedia page.
THANK YOU for finally NOT removing her Xhosa and zulu identity, though you still attempted to minimize it. Then even outright said "Shes not Xhosa"
While you all have been over here trying to distance her from her indigenous roots.
I hope Wikipedia edit history and threads are permanent, Because i'm eventually going to have to make a youtube video on what happened over here after I come off Hiatus and start my channel back up again.
What a BATTLE this was. African pride479 (talk) 19:38, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Anybody can hop online and claim that they are anything while protected by anonymity.
Between the two of us, i'm probably the only real african descent person here, and I can prove it. Im Koriander Yander. Very controversial figure in a niche community on the black and occult side of YouTube.
Yes, you tried to minimize her indigenous ancestry, and outright denied that she's Xhosa, while cosigning attempting to white wash her.
This is a very common trend on wikipedia when it comes to female artist of african descent. There is a trend to try and whitewash them in some manner.
White artists typically do not have their ancestry dug into on wikipedia. You can google any random white artist comma and you will see that they do not have their ancestry dug into. However comma when it comes to black female comma or african descent female artists, without fail, wikipedia community feels the need to minimize the persons black or African identity. It's also usually a trend on wikipedia comma for people to try and emphasize any non african ancestry, Despite the person being clearly african descent.
I have been noticing this trend on wikipedia for years which is why I came here.
I will eventually get psyop status and i'm going to start protecting the identity of these African/black decent women on this site, where this trend of attempting to distance them from their black/african ancestry is prevalent.
I'm also going to be putting the wikipedia pages and people who participate in whitewashing or minimizing black/african ancestry when it comes to african female celebrities on blast.
That is precisely what was going on over here. African pride479 (talk) 20:47, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Coloured does not equal Black. She's Coloured. You claim she's only Zulu and Xhosa but how would that make her "Coloured"? She's Coloured because of a mix of different heritages found in South Africa. Btw, her last name is "Seethal", that is a common name used by Asian South Africans. Need I say more? She's coloured. Please stop removing the information. 2403:5801:98D4:0:F58E:A809:18CA:159D (talk) 01:48, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
Hi there. The Glamour article presented as a source has been proven not to be in alignment with information that is verified by Tyla herself on her tiktok video that is linked in the wikipedia.
Tyla's own words are not up for debate, but the Hearsay of the Glamour article is most certainly up for debate, due to it being proven to be inaccurate...
If you have a problem with the edits, then please find another source that is credible.
The Glamour article is not. African pride479 (talk) 02:31, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
If you cannot prove the accuracy of any of your sources, my changes, which are the most accurate to what Tyla has said herself, remain.
Facts don't care about your feelings.
Go here and argue with Tyla: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8kmEWgV/
If you believe that your feelings change facts presented by the celebrity themselves, click on that link and go argue with Tyla under her TikTok video about what she said about her own family's culture.
Go tell her that you don't agree with what she says about HERSELF because of your feelings and biases.
I'm here to ensure that things are accurate, and that they line up. The glamour article that I removed does not line up with what Tyla says about herself. The only real quote on this wikipedia page that we have from Tyla is that she is Coloured of Xhosa and Zulu heritage, and that's from my sources.
The glamour article that I removed doesn't even mention that she's Xhosa, Which calls its validity into question.
Measuring the Glamour article against my own sources, which is directly from Tyla's TikTok(that yall tried to remove several times), the Glamour article has proven to be inaccurate.
I don't care about your feelings or racial biases, and neither does facts.
Your feelings also do not magically make an inaccurate or unreliable source more accurate.
I have asked you all to do one simple thing that you can't seem to do... That's produce the source where Glamour obtained THEIR information, that conflicts with the information that TYLA herself has presented; That she is Coloured of Xhosa and Zulu indigenous ancestry.
I'm still waiting on one of you to do even that little, If you have a problem with my changes.
I'm open to being wrong but the fact of the matter is that none of you have proven that I am.
You can't even come up with the more reliable source than the unreliable Glamour articles.
Some of the moderators here even flat out said that she's not Xhosa, Which my citations prove otherwise. So both you and the Glamour article was wrong XD.
What's so hard about checking and backing your own sources to win this debate? Wasn't hard for me. African pride479 (talk) 03:00, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
You're pushing a blatant agenda here. We use facts here on Wikipedia, not feelings. She's Coloured, end of story. 2403:5801:98D4:0:F58E:A809:18CA:159D (talk) 15:54, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
I echo what the IP editor above said: With a username like that, you've come here with a blatant agenda and are basically acting as a single-purpose account to edit war/type essays and act with a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality about Tyla's racial identity. That is not line with the collaborative ethos of Wikipedia, and your edits to the article should be treated with caution going ahead. Also, you do not need to put every new sentence on a separate line. It makes your replies far longer than they need to be and more difficult to read. Typically we only start new paragraphs on a separate line, not every sentence. Ss112 21:18, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
boy, u talk a lot!!
could you please state the issues in a few concise lines, rather than subjecting all of us to WAR AND PEACE here?! you're now spewed several HUNDRED lines over DOZENS and DOZENS of posts!
u have frankly lost anyone who might have been paying attention to u in the beginning. 2601:19C:527E:56C0:51AD:D124:98E0:D0B4 (talk) 16:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Not to beat the dead horse again, but I just found it funny that glamour was not a reliable source but the way her hair is done is??? Like gurl you cannot be saying this and expecting people to take you seriously. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.74.198.201 (talk) 06:51, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

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