Talk:Ulama

Good Work
this article is improving rapidly - good work! some link to Muslim Brotherhood, tarika, and Taliban is probably required, as the disenfranchised ulema in Egypt, Turkey, Afghanistan, etc., played some role in the rise social and political groups.

Incorrect Translation!
Ulama (Plural), Alim (Singular), and all its derivatives with different transliterations and spellings mean Scientist(s) in Arabic. They come from the root: 'ilm', meaning Knowledge. 'Iloom' is then derived from that, which means Science; 'Pursuit of Knowledge'. 'Alim' is then composed of that which means Scientist (Male singular), be advised there is also 'Alimah' which also means Scientist but is in the female singular form. Ulama is then composed of those, and it means Scientists, the final plural form.

These words do not imply in any way shape or form a reference to only Muslim "scholars". How this article derived only the meaning of 'Muslim Scholar of Islam' out of the above Arabic words is far fetched. As a Muslim and Arab who natively speaks Arabic and English, this is a grave mistake. Ulama can be used to refer to any Scientists of any religion or background as it is simply the Arabic word for Scientists. Is anyone editing this article a native speaker of Arabic and English? (Meaning on a native-level.)

If these words are being used specifically in the context of Shi'a Islam to mean different things then it should be stated in the beginning paragraph of the Article. But those words are Arabic and their meanings are Scientist(s), possibly Scholar(s), certainly not 'Muslim Scholars of Islamic Studies'. Unless Wikipedia aims to change the Arabic language, taking Arabic words which mean something quite generally and declaring that it means only one very specific diverging thing is wholly incorrect. Please address this or I will. Thank you. 72.145.129.154 (talk) 03:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Links
I added them since it enlighted how the Jurist work, one desribed it regardin one issue, the other critizised them --Striver 03:51, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Transliterations
In a recent version of the article, some symbols in the words ulema and Shia did not display properly in my browser. I assume that may be the case with other users, so I have changed to the spelling to an easier transliteration. My apologies to those who wished to improve the transliteration of those words. Pecher Talk 22:03, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Update: the same was the case with some other words, like sharia, so I have simplified the spelling throughout. Pecher Talk 22:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * These symbols are from the insert section at the bottom of the composition page. I have therefore restored them because they are part of the standard set used on Wikipedia. em zilch 03:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * @ 2603:90D8:2F0:A30:EDA1:10C1:14CD:C868 (talk) 10:17, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Y'know, I'm not sure that this is fair to our readers. Ulema, without any special characters, is widely used in academic and popular literature. One could probably consider it an English word. Insisting on used the word in characters that mean nothing to 99.9% of the readers is showing off, don't you think? If we had a little box in which we gave it in various characters (Arabic, Persian modified Arabic, Turkish, and transliterations) just ONCE, then any people who were fluent in those languages AND English could check our translation. But for actually finding out who and what the ulema are, "ulema" is just fine. Zora 03:43, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * See, I can see the basis for your argument there, whereas "I can't see Wikipedia's compositional character set" just isn't an effective comment.

Requested move (2006)

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

move to/keep at Ulema. &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) 10:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Requested move (2006)
Ulema → Ulama – Ulama is a more common transliteration.


 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~ 


 * Support as nominator. Although it remains dubious whether ulama really is the more common transliteration, I'm going to go out on a limb as say it is (with Google results backing that up). joturner 02:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutral but "ulema" is not only a Turkish form as stated below. South Asia and Southeast Asia (with far more Moslems than the Middle East) also use that form. AjaxSmack 19:10, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose Ulema is much more widely used in English and the subject has already been discussed on the talk page below. Pecher Talk 20:03, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

 * ''Add any additional comments'

Muslim Islamic jurists
This article should be named "Muslim Islamic jurists". Here is my arguments:


 * Ulema is not a good english article name, this is english Wikipedia.
 * Islamic jurists is no good, since a non-Muslim Islamic jursit are not "Ulema"
 * Muslim jurists are not "Ulema", this they can be a jurist in Swedish law and know nothing about Hanbali law.
 * Muslim Islamic jurists is the correct title, since it must be a Muslim that is engaged in Islamic Jurisprudence.

Comments? --Striver 20:41, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Anyone who is reading about Islam runs across the word "ulema". It is as useful as hadith, sira, caliph, waqf, and other technical terms. The reader is much more likely to be looking for information on ulema (having encountered it in reading) than for any other term.


 * I do not believe that jurist is a good translation of alim, since jurisprudence is a translation of fiqh. The ulema have to study kalam, tafsir, and ulum as well as fiqh. Possibly other matters as well -- these are the ones I know.


 * Islamic jurists would imply ulema who specialize in fiqh. It's not the right translation for ulema.


 * Muslim Islamic jurists is silly, utterly silly. It is not necessary to specify that an alim is Muslim, any more than it is to specify that a cardinal is Roman Catholic or a rabbi is Jewish. You want articles on Jewish rabbis and non-Jewish rabbis? Zora 22:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Im convinced by your argument, you are right that they are not only specialist in Fiqh. Thanks for a good comment. Peace! --Striver 01:15, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Let us remember that we are not here to do original research. Just because a phrase can be used doesn't mean it is.  "Muslim Islamic jurists" is not used and therefore we should not attempt to use it.  Muslim jurists as you describe is Striver are just jurists in a certain type of law.  Therefore, the fact that they are Muslim really doesn't matter so much and there is no reason to discuss it as a subject. gren グレン 13:22, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

"Ulema" seems OK as an article title. The word has been used in English for 237 years (source: Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, Merriam-Webster). Encyclopedia Britannica and the Library of Congress catalog spell it differently (as "ulama"), but they don't replace it with some other phrase. --Hoziron 14:13, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Ulema/ulama
Somehow Wikipedia seems to have started off with the Turkish term for the clergy -- influence of Bernard Lewis? The Arabic term, ulama, is probably more widespread. However, changing ulema to ulama in every article where it is found is going to be a big job. Is there consensus for a change to the Arabic form, and are there any editors who would help do this? Zora 00:31, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sure this could be done fairly easily using a bot and/or the Auto Wiki Browser:
 * And on another note, why does Talk:Ulema redirect to Talk:Muslim Islamic jurists. Pepsidrinka 00:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Because Striver had the bright idea, at one point, to move Ulema to Muslim Islamic jurists, without consulting anyone else. Someone handled this by redirecting the article back to Ulema, which didn't take care of the talk page.

If we decide to change to ulama, someone with mighty admin powers is going to have to straighten out the tangle.

We need to get input from the other editors working on Islam-related articles, lest we be seen as pulling a Striver :) Zora 01:06, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Ulema/Ulama...
There is no need to change 'Ulema' to 'Ulama'. 'Ulama' is the more proper Arabic pronunciation and spelling, but it isn't used at all as much as 'ulema' in English, as 'Ulema' is the Turkish, Persian and Urdu versions of the word predominant throughout Turkey, Iran, Indian subcontinent, Central Asia, South East Asia etc. and as most Muslims are from these parts of the world, 'ulema' is a lot more commonly used than 'ulama'. As well as this, even some Arabs (Yemenis, North Africans) pronounce 'Ulama' as 'Ulema', so even Arabs use 'ulema', so clearly there is no need to change anything, as both are just as correct. Besides, one is more likely to come across 'Ulema' than 'ulama'. As for 'Muslim Islamic Jurists' - that's just silly, I'm not even gonna bother with that one... (Tanzeel 21:27, 19 February 2006 (UTC))


 * Sounds like you know what you're talking about, Tanzeel, and I'm willing to trust you unless we hear a chorus of voices for a change to ulama. Zora 21:33, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The Blatant Islamisation of Wikipedia
I was most distressed to find yet another article so effectively Islamised (and by the same culprit Jagged 85). This article provides an obscenely large, but irrelevant section on what is purported to be the history of the 'Ulama/Muslim clerics and scientists. As far as I can make out, it repeats many of the tired, uncorroborated outside of a small circle of academics, claims about the Islamic origins of common and civil law. Now, were this confined to the Wikis on Common Law and Civil law, it wouldn't be so bad. Yet, here, we have a section supposedly about the historic development of the cleric in Islamic history; instead, we get information on the putative Islamic origins of components of both common and civil law. Yes Makdisi is a reputable academic, but should his infinitesimaly small, minority viewpoint on the origins of common law be displayed here? The answer is no - the section on History of the 'Ulama should either contain information strictly about the 'Ulama or should be removed!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.236.9.80 (talk) 17:50, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Layout
Can we start with etymology of the word, than a history of the concept, etc etc? Faro0485 (talk) 00:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Move to Ulama (March 2010)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved.  Ron h jones (Talk) 21:50, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Ulema → Ulama — Yes, I see there was already a discussion about this archived below, but the vote was
 * 2 support
 * 3 neutral
 * 2 oppose

Of the two who oppose, both assert (without any support) 'that ulema'' is more common in English. Except it isn't.' The Library of Congress and the Encyclopaedia Britannica both use ulama''. Google pulls 3.78m for ulama -wiki versus 2.78m for ulema -wiki. The results show exactly what one would expect: ulema is a regional Turkish and Pakistani use; ulama is the proper Arabic term, more common in English, and used in organizations even in Indonesia, Pakistan, and Turkey.

You'd think the idea of ulema as proper English comes from use under the British Raj or possibly British dealings with Ottoman Turkey, but google.co.uk gives 36,900 pages in the UK for ulama -wiki and only half as may (18k) for ulema -wiki. The page is in the wrong place. -LlywelynII (talk) 23:54, 12 March 2010 (UTC)


 * There's a general move away from non-standard transliterations related to this topic even in general sources. Chances are, if there's an e or an o in it, it's not standard. Support the proposed move per WP:UCN.  —   AjaxSmack   02:57, 14 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment. There is already a dab page at Ulama. Would this be considered the primary topic for Ulama? If so, that page should be moved to Ulama (disambiguation); otherwise, this should be moved to Ulama (scholar) or something like that. Ucucha 14:41, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * This is the primary topic. Only one other page, Ulama (game) ("a ball game played in a few communities in the Mexican state of Sinaloa"), is actually called Ulama.  Therefore, the dab page should be moved to Ulama (disambiguation) as you note.  —   AjaxSmack   16:48, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Removed POV pushing in "History" section
Jagged85, the person who put the problematic material in, has been RFCed and inshallah, will not be disrupting Wikipedia in the future.

Move? (July 2010)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus.   A rbitrarily 0   ( talk ) 13:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Ulama → — Relisted.   A rbitrarily 0   ( talk ) 22:23, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Ulama is a plural word. The corresponding singular is Alim. 06:18, 15 July 2010 (UTC)—  Hamza  [ talk ]
 * Comment that may be the case in Arabic, but what is it in English? 76.66.193.119 (talk) 21:56, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support The Encyclopedia of the Middle East seems pretty certain that the English word is Alim, as its description is An alim (Arabic: عالِ "Ahleem") is a Muslim scholar. It is the singular form of Ulema.  Encyclopaedia Britannica, although not having an article on Alim, does have one on Ulama, in which it refers to the term entirely in the plural: the learned of Islam, those who possess the quality of ʿilm, “learning,” in its widest sense. From the ʿulamāʾ, who are versed theoretically and practically in the Muslim sciences, come the religious teachers of the Islamic community—theologians (mutakallimun), canon lawyers (muftis), judges (qadis), professors—and high state religious officials like the shaikh al-Islām. In a narrower sense, ʿulamāʾ may refer to a council of learned men holding government appointments in a Muslim state.  Skinsmoke (talk) 22:53, 15 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose per WP:UE/WP:UCN. English does not always translate singulars/plurals well but common usage is usually preferred even if the term is a plural in another language (cf. panini, mujahideen, Taliban, zucchini, fedayeen).  And, as User:Skinsmoke notes, Britannica uses "ulama" too.  —   AjaxSmack   04:12, 18 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Support The common usage is, in fact, Alim. But mostly the term is substituted with Islamic Scholar in general conversation in English.—  Hamza  [ talk ]  23:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose Our article here (like the Britannica article) describes a class or social group, not an individual member of that group. As such, I think the usage appears to be in favor of Ulama.  An few analogies could be made, ie. an Alim is to the Ulama as an Academic is to Academia, or a Priest is to the Clergy.  Or in another direction, think of the members of some sports teams, like the Yankees: a single member of the team is called "a Yankee", a group of such members are called "Yankees", and this is also the name of the group as a whole.Erudy (talk) 18:55, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No hierarchy
"Ulama in contemporary usage by Muslims refers to the religious elite of scholars at the top of the sectarian hierarchy" – the preceding statement is false. there is no hierarchy, and there is no sectarian fellowship in Islam, this is a biddah and not consistent with the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad According to Muhammad Asad, (1934) a Jewish-born Austro-Hungarian born journalist who reverted to Islam, who wrote extensively in the area of comparative religion, Asad says "it is westerners who identify "theocracy" with the political power exercised by an established church-organization -in their case, the medieval Christian Church and its priestly hierarchy. Islam, on the other hand, does not admit of any "priesthood" or "clergy" and, therefore, of any institution comparable to the Christian Church" (Asad, M., (1934) Islam at the Cross Roads, Arafat Publications, Delhi),. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kali20805 (talk • contribs) 06:40, 21 April 2015‎


 * Re-adding "hierarchy", sourcing with (Hanif. Islam and Modernity. p. 318.) c Ө de1+6  LogicBomb!  16:57, 14 October 2015 (UTC)


 * In Islam, Islamic scholars have the practical role of clergy whatever you choose to call them. Also while the Koran ironically refers to Christians and Jews as seeing their rabbis and priests as God, if anything Muslims are deferential and worshipful of the Ulama to an almost absurd degreed, the Ulama abuse this respect to seize political authority and set up petty dictatorships. In Christianity and Judaism we're allowed to have our own opinions, the rabbi and priests opinion is merely advisory, we're not expected to be subservient in all things, especially in political matters which they are usually wise enough to butt their noses out of. Nor do they condemn us as heretics and apostates deserving death and the slightest disagreement. The only figure in Christianity treated with as much exuberant reverence and subservience as the average Ulama is in Islam, is maybe the Pope. And the Pope is wise enough to stick to non-political matters and is more of a spiritual figure than someone you are ordered to blindly follow.


 * The Ulama are basically deferred to in all respects regarding what is the Divine Will, and people are commanded to not think for themselves and to just follow the Divine Will at all times, it's almost a totalitarian system. But they abuse this and substitute in their own will, and take on the power of the Prophet for themselves to impalement their own ignorant and irrationalist political will. They just waltz around giving uneducated, bigoted, and intolerant opinions, declaring it the divine will and commanding the death of anyone who disagrees. It's a truly toxic relationship. Islam is not the religion of Muhammad, it's the religion of the scholars, they manufactured the Hadith, and the Koranic chronology which underlies the doctrine of abrogation, in the 2nd century after his death to reform the religion into something that would place everyone subservient to them. They manufactured the intolerant, ignorant religion of they desired in retrospect, picking what they wish and abrogating what they did not, manufacturing isnad and chronology and condemning to death rationalists with their ignorant Hanbali mobs.


 * I'd also like to point out that the devolved notion of the Ulama in Sunni Islam is only really the case since the fall of the Ottoman caliph, before that the Ottoman caliph more or less organized Sunni Islam and had a hierarchy of Ulama, which he himself abused to declare his own will the Divine will. In Twelver Shia Islam in contrast things are much more organized because religious authority never devolved in the way it did in Sunni Islam.


 * BTW, anytime someone says "just the sunnah and koran", reminder that you are speaking to a Salafist and to implicitly insert "Ibn Taymiyyah" and "al-Wahabbi" into that list. The Salafists are ignorant bullies who abuse injuctions against sects and the myth of a single united Islam as a bludgeon to force everybody to bow down before their extremely deviant and innovative sect which has numerous reactionary and bigoted opinions never before seen in the history of Islam. It is depressing to what degree they have been successful. The Prophet of Salafists is not Muhammad, it's Ibn Taymiyyah, the way they waltz around screeching about how they're the only true followers of the Sunnah and everyone else is an apostate kafir worthy of death blindly following traditional madhab, while they themselves bow their heads low to Ibn Taymiyyah in all matters, citing his Fatwah with greater authority than Koran, is truly a joke.2601:140:8900:61D0:7D5D:5138:8396:3B07 (talk) 20:47, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Improving the article.
Hi, I have tried to improve the article. Considering the disputable POVs, I have presented information in a neutral way. The main issue was of the definition of Ulama itself so I have created an "Etymology" section which is the most appropriate section and quite helpful for definitions of the word upon which the entire article is based. Here I have presented both the Arabic as well as the widely interpreted meaning of the term. The connection to religion within the Arabic term and the other term not confined to religion and only based on science is focused. At the last section, "Controversial aspects," I have also explained that it is equally important to check the context in which the term 'ulama' is being used because that defines the word itself. Other editors are encourage to provide other reliable sources and content to improve the article. Should you feel the need to discuss for change or improvement please reach me on my talk page. Pixarh (talk) 16:39, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

p.s. "History" and "Functions and requirements" can be worked upon to improve better. Pixarh (talk) 16:41, 13 October 2015 (UTC)


 * You cannot add original research to wikipedia. Your cited source made no mention of this difference in the religious/scientific definition of the word alim. c Ө de1+6  LogicBomb!  17:55, 13 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello. Very logical. This is why the concluding lines were summarizing what was listed above anyway. Nothing new was added there. Pixarh (talk) 15:57, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Those lines were not summarizing the material cited. c Ө de1+6  LogicBomb!  16:45, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

2017
Let's try and improve this article. Even if I took the hypothetical viewpoint of an Islamic scholar, I would consider large parts of the article as representing blatant, uninformed propaganda. In its current form, it is a disgrace to a community which, over the centuries, has contributed far more to the advancement of science and education than we may imagine from what is going on in many countries today, and from what is sometimes written in Wikipedia. From my point of view, the article has to be rewritten almost from scratch, and furnished with reliable and relevant information. Any of those who discussed this ten years ago still alive and kicking?--HajjiBaba (talk) 18:07, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Usage of the word ‌‍‘alīm in the Quran
This section does not provide any information about the usage of the word in the Quran. There is no quotation provided. Instead, the modern interpretation of the word "alim" is discussed i.e., that a modern definition of "alim" might include other scholars and scientists as well. How could this help our understanding of the ulama? I've therefore deleted the section.--HajjiBaba (talk) 04:18, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Philosophy
There's a case for mentioning some philosophical controversies as they impacted the ulama, but we shouldn't give the impression that the term ulama normally includes the falasifa. In particular, Hourani doesn't include philosophers in the chapter The Culture of The Ulama. Lapidus' A History of Islamic Societies has a good discussion of the differences between the cultural milieus represented by the ulama and philosophers. Eperoton (talk) 13:33, 30 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I take your point, Eperoton and btw thank you kindly for your edits. Actually, I have relied largely on Hourani (2013 pb. ed., section "The part of reason", p. 75 as cited in the references). Admitted that the philosophers' and ulama's social and intellectual milieus were only partially overlapping. However, a brief look at the reception of Aristotlean and neo-platonic philosophy by Islamic scholars (who, for most parts, had gone through the traditional alim's education) will help understanding al-Ghazali and his influence on Islamic scholarly reasoning (his "restoring of the faith") after 1200 AD. However, I'll try and adapt the section.--HajjiBaba (talk) 15:09, 30 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, al-Ghazali is quite relevant here (for his influence on the attitude among later ulema both to philosophy and to Sufism). One could say that Ibn Rushd and Fakhr al-Din al-Razi straddled both worlds, and of course Hellenistic philosophy had further reverberations among Shia thinkers. We just want to keep things in perspective. Eperoton (talk) 15:21, 30 April 2017 (UTC)


 * By your edits, you've found an excellent way of solving the issue you've raised earlier. Thanks!--HajjiBaba (talk) 05:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

"Partly aristocratic"
The designation makes some sense in the Ottoman context, which perhaps influenced the word choice used in the source, but as a general statement I believe it's misleading and doesn't reflect the vast majority of RSs. To the extent that the author meant it as a general statement, I would argue that it is WP:UNDUE. Eperoton (talk) 16:26, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

For the definition, I think we should give substantial weight to standard academic references:


 * The Ulama entry in EI2, which says that the term "denotes scholars of almost all disciplines ( lug̲h̲a, bayān , ḥisāb , etc. [q.vv.]). However, the term refers more specifically to the scholars of the religious sciences ( faḳīh , mufassir , muftī , muḥaddit̲h̲ , mutakallim , ḳāriʾ etc. [q.vv.])"
 * The Ulama entry in The Princeton Encyclopedia of Islamic Political Thought, which is cited, but not really reflected: "The Arabic term ulama [...] refers to Muslims scholars specializing in the Islamic religious sciences."
 * The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Islamic World: "By implication, one is an ʿālim on account of particular religious knowledge (the Qurʿān, the ḥadīth, and fiqh or religious law) [...] This textual background has always connoted specifically religious knowledge, either in the sense of gnosis or in the sense of knowledge of exoteric religious law."

Currently, we're giving excessive weight to rather marginal sources, e.g., the Rowman Altamira encyclopedia, which is written by a single author with no academic credentials, the book Islam and Modernity, whose author and publisher I'm not familiar with, and the paper on Ottoman ulema where the tagged expression comes from. Eperoton (talk) 16:42, 30 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Parts of the article are still as they were (and have remained so for almost ten years...) before we started our edits from this version. As the re-edit goes on, I plan to include more appropriate references. The sentence about ulama being the "aristocracy" of Islamic society does not even make sense for the Ottoman Askerî, so I've deleted it without further ado. The introduction, in particular, awaits a thorough re-edit. So far, I've only deleted some parts of the text which did not make sense and rearranged the rest to create some text which is readable and not altogether wrong.--HajjiBaba (talk) 06:05, 1 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Sounds good, thanks. Eperoton (talk) 02:08, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

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Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Independent legal reasoning in Islamic law which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 18:31, 18 March 2022 (UTC)