Template talk:Spaced en dash

The code for this template
For discussions and motivations why we have the code we have for this template see Template talk:·, since it uses the same or similar code.

--David Göthberg 12:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Rename to Template:Mdash? (or similar)
It seems like this code should be left alone but renamed to Template:Mdash as a spaced en dash should only be used as a stylistic variation on an em dash. Any spaced en dash should have a non-breaking space before it, and there should be no spaced em dashes. So it makes sense to make this the M dash template. (these rules are all described on WP:DASH) &mdash;TedPavlic | (talk) 01:30, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Following the discussion at mdash, maybe it's best to rename ndash to something like spacedndash. &mdash;TedPavlic | (talk) 14:57, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Wrong spacing
Where neither element has an internal space, this template makes the spacing wrong. It should generally be unspaced. Can someone fix it, or it will need to be discontinued? 1911–13, not 1911–13. Tony  (talk)  06:31, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * In those cases, &amp;ndash; (or –) would be used instead of ndash. The ndash is supposed to handle the spaced case. It's much shorter than &amp;nbsp;&amp;ndash;. Spaced en dashes are used in ranges of spaced elements (e.g., January 4–December 2) or as a stylistic alternative to unspaced em dashes. &mdash;TedPavlic (talk/contrib/@) 17:40, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Usage
"Also, this template should not routinely be used in regular article text and certainly not where an em-dash would be more appropriate. As a rule, this template should not be used between clauses of a sentence."

Why? I understand not using it instead of an emdash but why can't it be used in normal text to replace ?  McLerristarr &#124;  Mclay1  04:34, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Just two reasons are that on many browsers it makes the spacing before and after different; and it is misused in many places where a space is proscribed; i.e., 2010–11. The template, in my view, should be deleted. Tony   (talk)  07:48, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

MOS conflict
The examples given for the template contradict the guidance in the Wikipedia Manual of Style "dashes" section and should really be changed accordingly. ► Philg88 ◄ star.png 22:36, 9 April 2011 (UTC)


 * The examples are not real examples; they're just to illustrate a point. However, this template is not for use in prose; it's for separating items in navboxes and the like in which case the examples are perfectly fine.  McLerristarr &#124;  Mclay1  03:03, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. I've also created template:spnd as a redirect. Someone make a bot fix the ~1000 articles fast! *grins* UtherSRG (talk) 21:51, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Template:Ndash → Template:Spaced ndash – Twice this template has gone to TfD because it is often used incorrectly. The consensus is that it's a useful template and that we should correct misuse, not delete the template entirely. My proposal is to move this template to spaced ndash, then have a bot go and change all instances of ndash to spaced ndash. Once that is done, ndash could become what it says on the box, and what many editors expect it be, which is just an en dash. I know that this could cause a little confusion just after the changeover period, but I would be prepared to monitor the usage of the template and let people know that the template has changed if they are still expecting the spaced version. I think in the long run this will reduce confusion and end calls for the template to be deleted. Jenks24 (talk) 03:24, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - To me, it does exactly what it says on the box (namely the documentation). There is also absolutely no need for an ndash template without the spacing, because that is already covered with  and the character toolbar. —  Edokter  ( talk ) — 18:51, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. This template is wrongly used in many places where the en dash is not spaced (e.g. 1918–26). There is an urgent need to warn users, in the name of the template, that it should not be used thus. Except in full dates (9 September 1981 – 12 October 1999) and of course as a separator in navbox lists, etc, there are very few instances where a space is required. I believe it should be called Template:Spaced en dash, by the way, to be consistent with WP's manuals of style. Tony   (talk)  02:16, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with what Tony has said. Most editors do not read the documentation of every template they use and most would reasonably expect that ndash produces an en dash, not an en dash and two spaces. Tony, I would be equally happy with Spaced en dash as the title. Jenks24 (talk) 03:11, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Support this template's existence and its name lends itself too easily to misuse, and in violation of WP:MOSDASH. I would prefer it to be deleted as a first option, or renamed as a second preference. -- Ohconfucius  ¡digame! 03:27, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment if this is renamed, a short form redirect should exist, like spndash or nbspndash or something. 70.24.248.7 (talk) 04:46, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree and I'd be happy to create them. Jenks24 (talk) 04:49, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm just going to link MoS talk to this RM, in case a wider group of editors wants to have input. Tony   (talk)  05:10, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Support I've never encountered this template before, but I would have assumed that it generated an en dash, in line with other templates for characters which may be awkward to enter. Thus hybrid generates the hybrid symbol "×" not the sequence " × ". The name should reflect precisely what it does. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:51, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that ndash is a bad title, but spaced ndash is way too long –&#32; is more keystrokes than –, defeating the purpose. How about _ndash_, or even _--_? ― A. di M.​   15:51, 21 March 2012 (UTC) Nope, MediaWiki would treat them as alternate spellings of ndash and -- respectively. How about ~-- (the way you'd input that in TeX)? ― A. di M.​   15:53, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * If length is an issue, why not something like spndash? I prefer templates that use full words (and template naming has been trending that way in the last few years), but I can see your point in this case. Jenks24 (talk) 02:02, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Support: The name is too misleading. We all know that people don't read template documentation unless they have to. Re: "if this is renamed, a short form redirect should exist" and "how about...", and "why not something like ", that's what the edit button is for; you can create whatever redirects you want, though of course creating one from Template:Ndash would be very WP:POINTy. >;-) Templates, especially those for editorial use in articles (vs. geeky WP-internal things) should generally be at plain-English names regardless what shortcuts they may have. — SMcCandlish    Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿ ¤ þ  Contrib.  16:29, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Aside, what a wonderful thing it would be if the Foundation techs and communities agreed to (1) conduct an audit of the short templates (one and two characters long) that were nabbed in the early days, often for arcane or little-used purposes, and (2) free up some of this "space" for desperately needed template syntaxes. We certainly need one for the unspaced en dash ( comes to mind), spaced en dash (  – , the hard-space ( HS undefined ), the minus sign (  , and the soft hyphen . It would make things a lot easier for editors.  Tony   (talk)  11:13, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Template:snd is not taken! Awesome! (BTW, I'd like MediaWiki to replace (except in URLs, {{code| (i.e. no space between the template's closing braces and subsequent word) is an incorrect use of the template (that "still behave[s] well"). Why is this incorrect..? Sardanaphalus (talk) 12:33, 9 August 2014 (UTC) PS Just realized this thread above asks the same – if, therefore, there's no objection, I'm inclined to remove this description from the documentation. Sardanaphalus (talk) 12:37, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 29 June 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved by. Jenks24 (talk) 01:56, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Template:Spaced ndash → Template:Spaced en dash – Align with &#123;&#123;Em dash&#125;&#125; and &#123;&#123;En dash&#125;&#125;. – Alakzi (talk) 17:58, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). EdJohnston (talk) 00:11, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: I tried to do this move once already, as a technical move, but had to undo it. Be aware that some pages which use this template through redirects will break unless all the double redirects are fixed. See User talk:EdJohnston. Some other admin more thorough than me may be able to do it successfully. EdJohnston (talk) 00:11, 30 June 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

COinS
The HTML output of is identical to the output given when hardcoding the template’s contents (“ ”). Is there another reason why this template is considered COinS‑unsafe? — LLarson &#160; (said&#8239;&amp;&#8239;done) 23:56, 7 February 2016 (UTC)


 * I’ve updated Template:Spaced en dash/doc to reflect that the template appears COinS‑safe.$undefined$ — LLarson (said &amp; done) 15:02, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Trappist says this template is not COinS safe—‌pollutes dates. What about Template:En dash, Template:Em dash, and Template:nbsp? Ping me back. Cheers!  10:58, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Both and  are safe for COinS because they contain no html or css.   is not safe for COinS because that template wraps one or more   html entities in css:
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 11:21, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 11:21, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Intended usage
Is it still intended for this template not to be used in regular paragraphs? I ask because the spaces flanking a dash in regular text should not be non-breaking. Thanks in advance for the clarification! Q·L·1968 ☿ 21:25, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't worry much about that. Editors who use the keystroke (or the en-dash button below the edit box) rarely insert the nbsp thing. Tony   (talk)  06:51, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Date ranges & justification
A date range with this template looks terrible when the page is justified—the spaces around the dash can get pretty wide.

What objections are there to something like &amp;#8239;&amp;ndash;&amp;thinsp; instead of what's used now?


 * (31 February 2017 –1 March 2017)

vs


 * (31 February 2017&#8239;–&thinsp;1 March 2017)

Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:05, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Template appears to render incorrectly on Firefox 94 on Mac
When using this template if I have spaces surrounding the template, it appears as having two spaces on one side and one space on the other. For example  renders as   with two spaces on the first side and one space on the other side. Rendered example: "Foo –  Bar" Ergzay (talk) 19:03, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

COinS (2)
The documentation claims this template pollutes COinS. But that doesn't make sense: it's just text, even if in the form of HTML entities. I don't think that's problematic, is it? Hairy Dude (talk) 17:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The metadata for the first example is incomplete (corrupt) because the value assigned to date is omitted. Compare:
 * against:
 * The keyword that you are looking for is  (value is rendered in percent encoded ISO 8601 format).
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 18:28, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
 * against:
 * The keyword that you are looking for is  (value is rendered in percent encoded ISO 8601 format).
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 18:28, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 18:28, 29 February 2024 (UTC)