User talk:Kleinzach/Archive 5

[Operis]
Opera comes from the latin word [Operis]; therefore, opera's occurred during antiquity in Ancient Rome. Opera Publica or "Public Opera" is the term used in those times. Please remove your tag or I will have to request an administrator intervene. Thank you List of marijuana slang terms 19:23, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The Roman opera publica was an office concerned with buildings. Opera just means works in Latin. - Kleinzach 23:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Seconded. Opera means works, in Greece dramas probably included music, but opera proper didn't start until the early Baroque. Mak (talk)  02:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Operetta composer
Patrick Moore has composed a number of Operettas. Both have been performed in public. I think one of the preformance even got a slot on Local TV News - down Selsey way.

Operetta definition
Actually having thought about it the bit of work I am thinking of falls into the "Amature Dramatics" category. Though it is very much in the style of G&S and owes more to musical than to Opera.

I was including it as someone famous, Patrick Moore, did write it. He does style it as an operetta.

The link on the patrick moore page in wikipedia does reference operettas - I wonder if a better link would be to 'Musical play' or some such?

I did help out at a few performances (So that might put it under the category of 'self promotion'?) however I work in Computers not acting so feel there is little connection :).

I'm sure I can dig out and send you an MP3 of one of the songs and you can see what you think?

If so what is the best address to send to?

Regards, Sean User:Seanbert


 * Thanks but I am a bit tied up at the moment. I am sure you are right about it being 'amateur dramatics rather than operetta. - Kleinzach 13:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Piano only..
Yes you are correct - no orchestra. just a piano and chorus.

Broadway operas
The discussion about deleting this category has already closed. The decision was to "delete". -- Samuel Wantman 00:50, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Once the decision is made, the category has to be depopulated and then removed.   This is quite a bit of work and takes a while.  There used to be some bots that helped automate the process.  Last I looked, they were not working and the process had to be done manually.  With that, the number of categories being renamed and deleted is steadily increasing.  So, in other works, everything is normal.  the category has been depopulated, and will disappear soon. -- Samuel Wantman 19:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe RobotG is still functioning just fine, and User:RobertG will delete the Category article once it has been orphaned. Mak (talk)  19:46, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * OK. Tha category is empty in fact. - Kleinzach 23:09, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Médée
I think it might be better if it were at "Médée (Cherubini)" for the sake of consistency, then Médée (opera) could be its own disambiguation, maybe, or it could redirect to the Médée disambiguation. Let me know what you think, Mak (talk)  14:22, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Is the Cherubini one that much more likely to be the intended target? I sang a recit-aria from the Charpentier one for my senior recital, so it's more familiar to me. It seems to me that the standard naming conventions for works are Foo (type of work) Foo (other type of work) and if there are multiple of one type of work then Foo (author type of work) unless one has a very clear supremacy over the other. Thus, Venus and Adonis (Shakespeare poem); Venus and Adonis (Dryden poem); Venus and Adonis (opera); unless you're sure that any reasonable person searching for Venus and Adonis is looking for something by Shakespeare. But this convention is a bit cumbersome, and other language wikis seem to have gone for Foo (author), which I think is good. So, unless you think Cherubini is far more likely to be someone's intended search I think the titles should be Médée (Cherubini) and Médée (Charpentier). Cheers, Mak (talk)  16:08, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Opera categories
There is a category Operas. It has sub-categories for:


 * Category:Operas by composer
 * Category:Operas by genre
 * Category:Operas by language

According to WP:CG, an article should not normally be in both a category and that category's "parent." Yet, in various spot-checks, I have seen many opera articles that are in both Category:Operas and the relevant sub-category of "Operas by ". Same story for the language and genre sub-categories.

Is this an error, or was there a Project Opera policy decision to put all operas in Category:Operas as well as all relevant sub-categories? Marc Shepherd 21:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Never mind...I see you've gone on holiday. I re-posted on the talk page for WikiProject Opera. Marc Shepherd 23:00, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler Tags
Oh sorry, didn't know about the standard. I've just been copying what I see on existing pages. I've also been adding a few cast lists in table format. Do those look okay? Are there other specific standards I should know? I looked at the Opera Project page but it doesn't give much detail on formatting. Any pointers would be a help so I don't do more stuff that has to be changed. Thanks. Dybryd 05:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Trivia
Thanks for backing me up on the removal of trivia in Carmen. I feel Wikipedia needs to offer more than just interesting but pointless information. --Alexs letterbox 06:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Peer review
Hey Kleinzach, I hope Japan is lovely. I was wondering if you would do me the favor of taking an excursion away from your purview of opera and take a look at a pre-opera article I've been working on, Concerto delle donne. The page for the peer review is Peer review/Concerto delle donne/archive1. I'd appreciate any comments you might have. Thanks, Mak (talk)  18:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Ivan Petrov
Hello Zinnober, i don't quite understand this remark. Theer is nothing strange in providing the link to the german article (incidentally written by me), because, as the latest example Ettore Bastianini tends to prove, english speaking wikipedians seem to deliberately ignore other languages, and alos because Petrov is indeed little known and bears a very common name, like John Smith, if it were. He was a very fine singer though, as the external link on Petrow will show. You should do something about Alain Lombard ((de), (fr) as well, he was a very famous French opera conductor and director in the 1970s, before sliding slowly down until being completely forgotten today. Cheers, RCS 18:36, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Zinnober? Who? A mistake? At any rate the Opera Project page really isn't the place for leaving unexplained, cryptic links to foreign Wikipedias. Please respect the way the main page is formatted. If you want to say something to members of the project then use the Talk page. In any case if a singer is little known, except to you, then the thing to do is to start of the article yourself. The point of the 'Can you help' section is to suggest names that other people are likely to be interested in. It's not for some form of personal POV promotion. Regarding your point about English-speaking Wikipedians, has it occurred to you that a lot of them can't speak foreign languages? - Kleinzach 19:16, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Klein Zaches, genannt (called) Zinnober (ETA Hoffman). Only a private joke, sorry. RCS 19:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * About the other point : neither do i speak japanese or finnish, but whenever i write an article, i provide the links - if available - to those Wikis. It's not a matter of knowledge, it is - i am afraid - a matter of will. RCS 19:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It's laborious to search 'manually' for articles in other languages. People use interwiki bots for this. - Kleinzach 20:03, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I know, but i won't let my world be (completely) taken over by machines ! Cheers, RCS 20:05, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Weisgall's "The Stronger" edit
This is to differentiate it from the Strindberg play, and other items (songs, etc.) entitled "Stronger". Using an adjective in a title is a can of worms in Wikipedia, see Stronger. My wife is working on the Weisgall and noticed it was missing from his list of works. So I discovered the can of worms. Thanx for noticing. --Schweiwikist 19:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Opera Singers
Honestly, I know of only one Winnie Böwe performance. Hilary Summers, on the other hand, is a noted contemporary British contralto.Scottandrewhutchins 12:52, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I puritani
Hi there, Thanks for your message: I've replied to on the Talk:I puritani page. BTW, the recommended list was added by User:Gladstone at 10:21, 29 January 2005, though I expanded it.

Loollee
Sorry Kleinzach i didn't mean to upset you, but since the late Lully is a french composer, i thought linking to the slightly more substantial french wiki wouldn't be a bad help for a start - people sometimes don't even think of looking somewhere else. That's why, in itself, the link was not cryptic, but very clear. Then, i understand very well that you assume that people don't necessary speak foreign languages and that they shouldn't be bothered with them. This is an opinion i cant' share (i am a professional translator in real life, from French into German and vice-versa) but that i can respect. Anyway, best wishes ! RCS 06:58, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It is very simple. If you want to express your own personal opinions, the Talk pages are there for that purpose. The main project page represents the project as a whole. Your personal crusade to get people to read foreign languages is not relevant here. As you will know, I have myself been encouraging people to refer to the German, French etc. wikis, but this must be done in a positive way. Wikipedia works through individual contributions, not by ordering and cajoling other people to work on articles that you happen to have a personal interest in. Something to think about? Best regards. - Kleinzach 07:49, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't expect you to believe me, but i certainly place the interest of the opera as a whole over my own preferences. I wouldn't have written articles about singers i don't really care of (ex : Tugomir Franc) if this wasn't the case. Using terms as "crusade" etc. is very offending. Ever heard of projection ? Cheers, RCS 07:52, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * And really, i personally am not really fond of Lully. So long.


 * Hmm. What is the point of adding relatively obscure artists to the 'Can you help?' section when the only person who is going (or not going) to contribute articles about them is you? The whole point of the section is to list singers that people will want to write about. - Kleinzach 08:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Obscure ? If you think Anton Dermota or Franz Crass are obscure, or Edith Mathis or Maria Stader, then i can only pity you. RCS 08:04, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * IMO you are missing the point. This is an encyclopedia not a magazine. (Dermota and Stader were originally on my list of suggestions so your examples are not really appropriate.) The opera project is for all opera - not just German singers of the third quarter of the 20th century.- Kleinzach 10:15, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * But of course. I assume Robert Lloyd and Thomas Stewart are distinctly teutonic people, then. Whatever you say. RCS 10:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Then i'd like you to notice that trueful translations of my articles have been made into english before i ever dared to intervene into the project : check Helga Dernesch and Heinz Zednik. But this is not the point. The point is that obviously some articles are missing and that i provide you with useful lists of names, while not wanting to write those articles myself, being already busy to do it on fr and de. You seem not to assume my good faith, but this is only a personnal matter, easy to settle. But, if i may say so, "obscurity", apparently, of continental singers, is in the eye of the anglo-american beholder, and zis is a peetee... Regards, RCS 08:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

To be
quite honest. RCS 09:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Excuse my oar
Hey Kleinzach (and RCS) - If I may shove in my oar, I thought the French link was useful, but would perhaps have been more appropriate on the project talk page, where probably just as many people would see it. RCS, we actually already have many lists of music topics which deserve but don't have articles yet, including those compiled at Music encyclopedia topics. If you want to maintain a list of singers who are more prominent and don't have an article on en but do on fr and de, perhaps those could go on a subpage, such as WikiProject Opera/Singers, rather than on the main page where only those of the highest priority should be put. As for interlanguage links, I think it is nice to include them in new articles. I found this tool which makes finding them far less laborious. I think both Kleinzach and RCS really want the best for Wikipedia, and just have different views of how to get there. I wonder whether if RCS would keep interlanguage links to the talk page, and put only the most influential singers on the project page whether that would be acceptable to both of you? Again, please excuse me if I'm shoving in where I'm not wanted, I just think we can do a lot more if we're focused on moving forward together, rather than becoming angry with those who ultimately have the same goals as us. Thanks, Mak (talk)  14:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Those are good suggestions. On my side I am more than happy to endorse them. - Kleinzach 20:19, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * My aim is to be constructive as well, but remarks like "obscure third quarter of the 20th century german singers" borders on the racist to me, hence my - yes Kleinzach - bitter sarcasm. Especially since 1) this very period was one of the best in the history of music recordings (New Bayreuth; the best years of Karajan, Kempe, Bernstein, Kubelik, Ancerl, Jochum, Böhm; of Vickers, Ludwig, Janowitz and thousand others) and 2) since i suggested articles on russian singers as well (Maslennikov, Arkhipova - now done - and Petrov ; by the way, my stubby articles on Mark Reizen appeared a long time on de and fr before the great article on en came out). Taxing me of ethnic chauvinism is really a bit harsh and says a lot about some people's priorities. But putting this aside, i am only too glad to be at least a little helpful. RCS 22:06, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I have not at any time used the expression: "obscure third quarter of the 20th century german singers". - Kleinzach 22:55, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


 * True. At one point you said "German singers of the third quarter of the 20. century" and on another you spoke about me adding "obscure singers". This gave me the whole picture. Personnally, i love the years 1950-1975, and who in his right mind wouldn't ? End of argument - i like what you do, keep on, that's all. RCS 07:46, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Mazeppa
Saw this opera yesterday, and, as it was a stub, have written it up. Sorry I haven't been about much of late! Vanished user 00:03, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes. Looks good. - Kleinzach 22:00, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The Fairy-Queen
I'm back! I've left some comments on the article's talk page. Best, Moreschi 19:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I have just had a look. - Kleinzach 22:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

hello.
know any places i can get hold of Midi files of Verdi Operas? I was going to fiddle with them and use various programs to make them sound good and upload them to all the Verdi opera article wiki pages, they wouldn't have real singing, just the notes being played by a synth, with instrumentation but i thought it might give people something to give an impression of, also linking to the MIDI's would allow people versed in tech to see the score, try to sing along to the role etc. Probably a good way of enhancing the articles.--I&#39;ll bring the food 02:44, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No, I don't know where you can get midi files. Why would you want to use midi rather than, for example, mp3? Maybe I am missing something here, but I am not very knowledgeable about sound files. - Kleinzach 22:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * MIDI is basically the score in playable form via synths. whereas mp3 files would be a recording of a sound, likely incompatible with the GFDL unless strictly granted for free use. I'm thinking a MIDI offering is better than nothing, and could even possibly pave the way for people to make their own audio recordings for us to use.--I&#39;ll bring the food 13:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Moving Standard Mandarin
I've started a thread to try to build proper consensus about whether to move Standard Mandarin to a more intuitive and perhaps neutral title or not. I've left this message at your talkpage because you've participated in previous discussions about a possible title change. Please feel free to contribute with your thoughts and arguments at Talk:Standard Mandarin.

Peter Isotalo 12:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Welcome back
Welcome back! For the moment, at least! You missed all the drama, how clever of you! If you want to know about it, check out the archives of List of major opera composers and Requests for arbitration/Jean-Thierry Boisseau, but you may want to hold off on that, since it will probably raise your blood pressure. Cheers, Mak (talk)  00:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Melodrama typo
And greetings to you too, fellow archaeologist (and I salute and follow your wise decision not to contribute archaeology arcana...it would just confuse people...and leave them none the wiser...). As for the typo, it only works as a link with all the letters capitalised, unless of course we do this: Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street Colin4C 21:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Agrippina
Thanks for the congrats. I wrote pretty much all of the article, and Folantin, Makemi, Adam (Cuerden) and others chipped in with help, style advice, referencing advice + help - the Viking cites are Folantin's and the Grove ones Makemi's, for example. Kyoko/Tachikoma was also of great assistance in simplifying my rather convoluted prose. So yes, pretty much a team effort! For GA you definitely need more than one person. Thanks again, and it's good to have you back on a slightly more active basis. BTW, for are you back for longer or are you off again soon? Cheers, Moreschi 18:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Future projects? Weel, let's see. Two I've been sizing up for a while now are Orfeo ed Euridice, or/and maybe The Indian Queen? There's good material to work with in both, so any GA push there would be less arduous than that for Agrippina, which I basically wrote up completely from stub level. Good to have you back, and see you round! Cheers, Moreschi 19:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Composer of the Month
Right-o. It should be relatively easy: Just have to copy some stuff between templates. Vanished user talk 20:32, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Done.
 * Hmm. Do you want me to make the editing function only available at the Opera Project page? (relatively easy: Just move it out of the template and into the to do box) - I ask this because the code would let it be put on the user's page, but it might be wise to not encourage editing from the user page. Vanished user talk 23:10, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, not a problem. Just wondering if I should add functionality by making a userpage version. So that Opera project denizens can see what the project is. But you wouldn't want easy editing from the userpage. Vanished user talk 23:24, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Operas
Tell me, are there any operas premiered in England ~1800 to 1900 that need images? I can't guarantee anything, but given a date of premiere I *may* be able to find a few out-of-copyright images and reviews. Vanished user talk 10:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I mentioned it briefly there, but, weel, I'm heading in to where I can try and get them tomorrow, so thought it might be wise to see if you knew of any offhand. Found a rather good Gilbert and Clay illustration (and a Gilbert and selections-from-Offenbach burlesque that later got rewritten as Princess Ida) HHaven't spotted any Offenbach proper yet, but I've only done 1869 and part of 1870 so far. (There will be Offenbach. England at that time had a theatrical culture dominated by plays and operettas translated and bowlderised from the French. Indeed, I've recently done articles on some of Gilbert's free translations from the plays of Henri Meilhac and Ludovic Halevy - The Realm of Joy, for instance, or (not mine) Haste to the Wedding. Wagner and Donizetti are also likely, though I haven't come across him yet at any further length than announcements of their operas being performed. Probably not hit close enough to their London premieres yet) Vanished user talk 11:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

soubrette/charakterwhatever
charakter or however its spelt means a comic role, a soprano who engages in comic roles is a soubrette (they also do girly characters). If you think that's bizarre you should check out the hoher bass, it is apparently a separate role from the bass-baritone but it isn't according to the bass baritone article. I'm exasperated by this. You wouldn't believe the reading I've been doing to fix all the fach articles, all the opera terminology articles. I'm also dealing with people who have weird fixations with putting pop singers into opera weight categories. It's... an experience.--I&#39;ll bring the food 22:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh i did not mean to say they only do comic roles, but i believe they do a lot of them for women. Thank you for making me clarify tho, i'll only sound like an idiot otherwise. I believe the German article had some innaccuracies. I've just altered one, Hoherbass (bass baritone) does not equate to helden baritone (heroic baritone) - according to Grove music (which is a good source).--I&#39;ll bring the food 22:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I found this which is incredibly helpful. Would you say it is a good source? It's certainly helpful, more-so than Grove music which is limited on German Facher or what-have-you.--I&#39;ll bring the food 23:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Good news Kleinzach. I found out that books by Richard Miller are in English and fully use German Opera facher as classifications. I shall obtain the books and rewrite the fach article at some point (don't hold out for any time soon though).--I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 03:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, I recently obtained "The male choir of St. Petersburg" and I reccomend it, it's got really powerful choral oktavists/profundo in it.--I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 03:17, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Info box code
Thanks for the code. Have a look at Mitridate, re di Ponto for what I've done with it - any thoughts? Also, do you think that the box is best down at the bottom, as there, or (which I think better) at top right, as in Il re pastore (the latter is what I cribbed from the Prokofiev box and doesn't use your code, though I can modify it to do so, I think). It seems to me that we need to use one or the other, but not both. Best. --GuillaumeTell 22:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, I've fixed the wide box in the Mitridate article and have dramatically reduced the width of the box in Il re pastore by changing it to one opera per line - have a look. I still have a preference for having it at top right rather than at the bottom, where it might get missed, especially in a long article.  Any idea whether there's some way of eliminating (most of the) white space above the text of the article? --GuillaumeTell 17:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, please do see if there's some way of eliminating or reducing the white space, and feel free to alter Template:Mozart Operas - it's not my personal property! Other infoboxes seem to line up OK - see, for example, the one in Osmotherley, North Yorkshire.  I've rearranged it chronologically (according to the order in the Viking Guide, rather than the order at List of compositions by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart - where I see that there's a red entry for Thamos, and that La finta semplice is a redirect to an incorrectly capitalised article (sigh!). --GuillaumeTell 18:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I thought after I'd done it that dates would be a good idea. I'll use the ones in the Viking.--GuillaumeTell 21:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. I've used the premiere dates, or approx dates of composition if not premiered in Mozart's lifetime, so not exactly the Viking order.  Any further thoughts, or shall I roll them out?  I do think that we ought to include King Thamos for completeness.  Maybe I should get up a stub for it before I add it to the template (and the opera corpus, etc.) --GuillaumeTell 21:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I've added the infobox to 16 out of 21 operas, including Mitridate from which I also removed the wide box. It seemed inappropriate where it's longer than the text (mostly stubs), where the wide box at the bottom would be better (when you've finished with it).  Plus it didn't look right in The Magic Flute, where the existing picture needs to be put somewhere else, I think, so I didn't do anything there pro tem.  --GuillaumeTell 22:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I've just added the infobox to Die Schuldigkeit des ersten Gebotes for the time being - do you really think it looks all right? On the subject of the infobox itself, I think that we can de-link both "Operas" and "WAM" in the title-bar, as this will usually duplicate the references to both in the first para of the article. As for the quality of the Mozart articles, I was thinking exactly the same thing, but, as I have other things on, I just made a mental note (I see that you've been rectifying some of the more obvious problems).  If/when he becomes composer of the month, I suggest that anyone interested should specify a Mozart opera that they will "adopt", to avoid duplication. --GuillaumeTell 21:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

"To do" boxes.
Should be able to do it: It's basically just a table with a transcluded web page. I'll poke around after lunch. Vanished user talk 13:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Or will feel ill and nap. Remind me tomorrow? Vanished user talk

How's that look? Vanished user talk 00:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Right then! As for the image in the corner: Fairly trivial to change: Indeed, for the Work Projects box, you can change it as part of the template. Just find something suitable. Vanished user talk 13:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Pastorale héroïque
I changed the article title to the more accurate "pastorale héroïque" (with the double dotted "i"). Cheers. --Folantin 18:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Renaming cats.
I agreed with both the proposed moves. Once we have stubs for all Rameau's operas, we will have at least six opéra-ballets. --Folantin 18:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)