User talk:Kleinzach/Archive 7

Verdi Articles
I'm not sure how to revert the changes... I'm afraid that I am fairly new to wikipedia and haven't figured it all out yet. All of my Verdi changes were rightly reverted back to the original form or another member has taken it upon himself/herself to go back delete any copywrited information or add citations. I appologize for any problems I may have caused. I am more familiar with the wiki rules now and I am more careful with the changes/ additions I make. If you have any other questions feal free to ask. 15:42, 12 June 2007 User:Nrswanson

Thanks for your patience. My Verdi stint was really my first attempt at adding to the wiki world and I have since learned much more about good editing. I will say though that my mistakes ultimately ended up improving many of the articles, especially in the lesser known Verdi Operas, by inspiring your editors to do more work. lol Your editors actually bothered to fill in some of the holes I filled in (albight without good citations etc.) I still think that many of the articles are lacking in information though and could use more work. (especially when it comes to the background history of the lesser known operas and many of the opera synopses are too general or have scene divisions that are incorrect).Nrswanson 10:34, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Opera singer categorization
I will gladly hold off on this but please keep me in touch with what you are doing. I was driven by an attempt to sort out the English/UK music pages (see WikiProject_Music_of_the_United_Kingdom) and basically adapting rules used in WP:MUSCAT. As I think you will agree, all the categories relating to 'classical' music seem to be in poor shape. Best regards Smerus 16:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

The New Moon
I fixed the problem by splitting off the films into their own article. Cheers, -- Ssilvers 14:40, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Photo copyright
Re your question, I would think you are correct. But I must confess that although I thought I had a pretty good grasp on US copyright law, my understanding has frequently conflicted with Wikipedia policy (or practice). So the images I've been searching and adding to opera-related articles lately are pulled from Wikimedia Commons since it is by definition a repository of freely licensed images.  Nick In BigD (Hey!) 06:12, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Garðar Thór Cortes an opera singer
Hi! Actually, Garðar Thór Cortes is an opera singer. Should the opera banner be restored? Cheers, Jacklee 13:02, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, by all means restore the banner if you think it's appropriate. It would also be a good idea to remove the infobox as these are not used for opera. Thanks. -- Kleinzach 13:06, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, why are infoboxes not used for opera singers? Cheers, Jacklee 13:17, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Record of Singing and others
Hello, Kleinzach.. Have just entered a new article for Frederic Austin (which I submit to your wisdom re categories etc) and also a short and inadequate beginning of one for Elena Gerhardt. I have just noticed that you originated the article on The Record of Singing, which is useful, especially the (rather melancholy) note by Vivien Liff. I wish this long list were instead a list with the disc titles added, as they don't appear in the books! (and I didn't buy the records in the 70s, only the books!) Do you think there is any chance of having them added in a short form? good wishes, Dr Steven Plunkett 15:24, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Lauritz Melchior and 70.69.51.111
Hi. I don't know if you noticed, but User:70.69.51.111 added an infobox again to Lauritz Melchior. I deleted it again and left another warning on his Talk Page. Jru Gordon 21:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

EDIT - I just saw your message on my Talk Page about this. I put a level 2 warning about attacking editors on his talk page. If he continues I will escalate from there, up to and including a block. If you want help with which warnings to put on people's Talk Pages, go to Template messages/User talk namespace. Jru Gordon 21:06, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * just to let you know, I have reverted the edit yet again, have put a final warning on his talk page, and have requested Semi-Protection. I'll let you know how it turns out. (This message will be posted on my Talk Page as well)Jru Gordon 08:43, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * another note, 70.69.51.111 has been blocked for a day


 * Some people put it back because they thought we being “double standard” – simply because famous operatic singers have info boxes in their articles. I just removed from Pavarotti, Caruso and Domingo. See how it goes from here. - Jay 09:56, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Infoboxes and operatic singers
The Opera Wikiproject may not like infoboxes, but webpages about operatic singers do not exclusively "belong" to this project. These are biographies typically included in WikiProject Biography/Arts and entertainment, which calls for infoboxes. I restored the infobox for Grace Moore, who was clearly a movie star and pop singer, not "just" an opera singer. (I am not particularly fond of infoboxes; I simply don't think that Opera project participants should be removing them, considering that Biography project participants think they are vital.) --orlady 13:38, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Infoboxes for opera singers
I should let you know that I posted the following message at a few relevant WikiProjects: There is currently a discussion taking place here regarding whether infoboxes should be used for opera singers. Please weigh in if you'd like. (Notes left at WP:VP, WT:WPBIO, WT:CM, and WT:MUSICIANS.) I hope you don't view this as canvassing or votestacking, as I also posted at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music, the members of which will likely have views more in line with your own (members of the other WikiProjects are a toss-up, I think). I also hope that you don't harbor any ill feelings towards me; I know this is the second of two recent disputes we've had. Know that if consensus sides with you, I will not pursue the matter any further. Finally, I hope you didn't take my comment about arrogance as a personal attack (it was not meant to be construed as such, but rather an side-argument for the use of infoboxes, albeit not a great one...I now realize that it may have been a little out of place).

Cheers, and thank you for your civility in our disputes. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 07:09, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You know, I would appreciate it if you would come to me first regarding those messages before making a public spectacle of me. As I wrote earlier, I think it falls under the "friendly notice" section of Canvassing. Like I wrote on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera, I would be happy to remove one of the two notices left on talk pages that would more likely attract pro-infobox editors. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 07:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Could you please respond to me? I'm trying to remain calm, but it's hard when I am implicitly (or explicitly) accused of bad faith. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 09:36, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Pasquale Anfossi
I've done as much as I can on this, transferring material from the German Wiki. I'm no musicologist, so you might like to look over the translation as some of it might not quite make sense. Hopefully you won't have to do too much to it! The German article is totally unreferenced, and so the English one is too - I've tagged the article, but I don't think I would be able to find the references! Next task? IGF, Cricketgirl 20:35, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Karl Erb
Bless you for this attention! I haven't quite finished with Karl yet, have something to say more about his Evangelist and his Lieder stage and recs but nearly there. One of my heroes!! best, Dr Steven Plunkett 00:31, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your latest messages, etc. I have got some nice pictures of Erb but they are in a book published 1948, and there has been a 1970s or 80s reissue, though both in German only. Can I use such pictures (from the 1948 copy) under fair use? Please advise me, can I use them here (ie not on Commons?)... Article status doesn't bother me much, so long as it gets into internet search etc. But if it would help YOU for me to inline ref one or two of these articles, let me know. In general the sources I list ARE my sources. Thanks for the tip about RoS, just at present I have other financial priorities! cheers Dr Steven Plunkett 13:42, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

John Abell
Oh, he's definitely a countertenor of some sort. Grove has a fairly lengthy biography of him. Apparently, sources from the time call him both a treble, a tenor, and a countertenor, so he was probably blending head voice in with chest quite a lot. Just what the "countertenor" voice consisted of at this time is open to debate. But yep, he's an alto; certainly his written range agrees with that. Cheers, Moreschi Talk 08:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. Done. Cheers, Moreschi Talk 12:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Max von Schillings
I've retranslated the German page and blended it with what was already there. Again, would you mind taking a look over my work - my English sometimes gets a bit Germanised when I'm translating... Cheers! Cricketgirl 21:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Opera/Opera Work List
Yes, it serves no useful purpose, so let's get rid of it. And maybe we should put the List of operas up for deletion while we're at it: none of us (AFAIK) are maintaining it, and new opera articles are being created at an unprecedented rate compared with when I joined the Project. It'd be interesting to compare the # of operas there with the blue links in the Corpus. --GuillaumeTell 00:28, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Therese Tietjens
Therese Tietjens is my latest victim. Please subject her to your usual error-erasing rubadub and I will try to do the same and make the article less colourful in the red spectrum. Any hints on the above query about pics? best wishes, Dr Steven Plunkett 00:04, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Template:Opera genres
''This is to explain that I have reverted your change to this box. The reason is that it follows the Opera Project colour coding and is listed by consensus on the Project page. In any case there really is no reason why these boxes have to conform to someone else's design - WP looks better if tere is some aesthetic variety. Have a nice day! -- Kleinzach 02:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC)''


 * You have to be kiddy me! That named color does not show up in IE6.  I'll add a rule to convert LightSlateGray to #778899.  —Dispenser 02:16, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Named Colors in HTML/CSS notes all the colors with gray will not display with the exception of lightgray. —Dispenser 02:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Aribert Reimann
Done. Lots of prizes, which I didn't really know how to format, so I've had a shot, but if that's no good and you still need help with translation, just shout. Cricketgirl 14:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I also did Johann André - shall I keep working my way along the "Can You Translate" line on the project page? Do let me know if some pages have higher priority. Cricketgirl 17:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Ford/Sullivan
I expanded the Ford article that you started. BTW, I see that you added The Sapphire Necklace to one of the opera lists. It was never performed, and most of the music and libretto are lost, so I'm not sure you want to list it, but I leave it to you. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 18:07, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Opera Corpus
Hi, I got your note. I hadn't intended to write articles on the Nicolai operas I added just yet. I do intend to write articles on some others first, like Penderecki's 'Ubu Rex' and some of the Glass operas. I guess I have assumed that the opera corpus was intended to be more complete in its content. If not, that's ok but I am not always sure which to include. By the way, great project. I am glad to participate. 13:06, 26 June 2007 Canticle

Its fine if you remove the Nicolai operas. Thank you for your courtesy in asking. And, yes, I would like to join the opera project. And also thanks for reminding me about the tildes for signature. I am still relatively new to this. Thanks again.Canticle 07:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Navigation boxes
Sure, I'll do it - Jay 04:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok done. I also added 6 more opera list in Massenet opera list in Opera corpus. - Jay 05:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I will do the navigation boxes for other composers too (from time to time based on Opera Corpus). - Jay 07:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I noticed that The opera corpus list is not complete. I just added few more list for Rameau and now, I noticed that there are few operas by Rossini not in there too. It is hard to check one by one because some of the opera titles in The Corpus opera and in the navigation box (taken from the article) are different. That is why I changed the whole list rather than adding what's not in there. I will check Rossini's list later tonight - Jay 09:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I have checked Donizetti, Rameau, Bizet, Rossini, Monteverdi, Vivaldi, Gluck , Meyerbeer , Offenbach , Grétry , Auber , Massenet – all are correct except Vivaldi. I just added “Farnace” in The opera corpus. - Jay 14:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Just added Vakula the Smith, and The Enchantress for Tchaikovsky. - Jay 15:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * To avoid similar problem like what happened to Sullivan’s, I think it is best if you could tell me which operas/ composers need to have the navigation boxes. I didn’t know about Sullivan-Gilbert special project until I was told. Cheers - Jay 04:25, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Wolf-Ferrari and others
Sure, I will. I think it is easier if you could list down composers that you think we could put the nav boxes. I will do it one by one whenever I have the time. How about Berlioz? - Jay 01:05, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I will but please read the latest discussion in Project opera talk page. That is what I was trying to avoid actually. Edit warring (bottom or top or whether it is neccessary or not) - Jay 01:23, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Various
Two points, 1. I have created a little stub for James Henry Mapleson so that he doesn't always come up in red. 2., capitalization of opera titles. I assume this has been done through general discussion somewhere that I haven't found. But surely it is mad that, for instance, La Fille du Regiment does not link, simply because the F and R are in capital letters? Anyone searching wikipedia will type in the titles with capitals. Myself, I think it is silly to give these things l.c. titles because they are Titles of works, just like 'Jude the Obscure' by Thomas Hardy would be, not Jude the obscure, or Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, not Hamlet, prince of Denmark. Hence Il trovatore is (IMO) silly! However I'm sure that has all be argued about ad infinitum elsewhere. My point is, these must surely be added as redirects for searching purposes? Dr Steven Plunkett 13:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thankyou very much for both your replies! I tried to respond earlier but the system seized up on me. I have looked at the project page and read your comments and I think I understand - the main thing being that if I find a lower case title and feel that there should be a redirect to it using capitals, its okay to add one, without altering the main article title in any way? Please let me know if NOT. I am thinking of attempting the Fernando de Lucia article which your project page is appealing for - have you anyone else working on that just now (don't want to barge in!)? best wishes, Dr Steven Plunkett 14:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much for your latest - since you wrote it/them I have added to Fernando a dissertation on the technique of bel canto as it is often applied rightly or wrongly to his singing. I believe it is not nonsense, but it may not suit the article or your project, and I haven't so much as checked if there is an article on bel canto yet (or can belto, either...)! But something of this kind is needed because de L is in that special place between both traditions and active in both, and one can't just say it without explaining oneself. If you can bear it, and if I'm not making horrible demands on you (you seem to be somewhere at the heart of wikipedia opera!), could you please look at it and perhaps come back to me with a comment? Thanks, Dr Steven Plunkett 00:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Eurgh .. getting a bit late tonight! Having looked at the bel canto article I think the gist of this material belongs in there, because all these points about the use of the breath etc resolve together in what the earlier 19th century teachers taught, i.e. the technique which later came to be called 'bel canto'. The existing article has a stab at explaining the term - it's quite a good article - but doesn't get down to the nitty gritty. Yes one could make subsidiary articles about these musical terms (some probably already there) but it is their collective import, not only in what is written down in notes, but in their effect together on vocal technique, that comes to bear on bel canto, AND on what is supposed to be represented by de Lucia. I agree, get some of it out of the de Lucia article - would you agree, try to squeeze some of it (the terminology and a little more vocal theory) into bel canto, but with possible extension into short subsidiaries? If agreeable I'll have a bash at this tomorrow (bedtime now!) best wishes Dr Steven Plunkett 01:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Message received, thanks: and p.s., I see there is some discussion about portamento on the discussion there, which I propose to join into and get another definition included (because perhaps there is more than one usage), and the article on messa di voce is already very serviceable but could be tweaked to embrace the real operatic messa di voce, and the technique as part of a true vocal portamento, properly. Then the bel canto article can have some proper rusti-gutsi in it! Now I'm off to bed to dream about it and try to remember some possible reference sources for this. Thanks for everything today! G'night, Dr Steven Plunkett 01:51, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Les Horaces
Shouldn't Groves be footnoted then?Nrswanson 10:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Assessments, ranking
Well, why not? I'll need to actually devise my own points system first, though. I hadn't registered that Moreschi had improved (from our point of view) the opera version of the "standard" assessment system, but it certainly looks better now. I'll see what I can come up with over the weekend (but I'm busy this p.m. and all Saturday). Are the Wagner people OK with me doing the two sorts of assessment as an experiment? To what extent is this just between you and me? Should we tell the Opera Project that I'm doing this, or wait until I've done it?! Reply by email if you think it best. --GuillaumeTell 12:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reminder. It wasn't lost in cyberspace - I just didn't get round to replying, but have done so now. --GuillaumeTell 17:04, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Coup de glotte
Thanks for your perfected list of terms, very useful and I will play with the contents! To begin with there ought to be an article with the above name, but at present it redirects (inappropriately, I think) to 'Glottal stop' which is a similar action but a different kind of thing. Do you have any idea how to DETACH a redirect so that I can either start a different article or else invent a redirect? I now have a copy of Manuel Garcia's Compendious Treatise on my desk so I could do a short piece on this, as he is the arch teacher of coup de glotte in singing, and he has a 'chapter' about it. Perhaps I should just create a new article 'Coup de glotte (singing)' and put a little redirect sentence at the head of the other article? Dr Steven Plunkett 15:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I stuck my nose in and removed the redirect for you, go for it! It's an interesting vocal technique/sometime ornament. Mak (talk)  16:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks Makemi. I don't know if you have seen Steven's articles - some great singer biographies. -- Kleinzach 23:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You are too kind. I wish I knew how you did that! The times I have wanted to unplug a redirect.... I was just fiddling with Maude Valerie White article, which wants enriching, but haven't enough resources to hand. I'll get on with the coup de glotte. Dr Steven Plunkett 23:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks! I see that coup de glotte is in the Concise Oxford Dict of Opera, interestingly, but without much comment. If there is really to be an exploration of vocal technique in a little series of articles (and my theory in this is definitely old fashioned and rusty, but I could make a start) then I shall start to come up with other possible article titles in due course. This task carries a responsibility of not encouraging young novice wikipedian singers to go and sing in peculiar ways which may strain their voices, and will require some caution and diffidence. They will probably all interlink, so it should be possible to track them, but I bet several of them are out there already. best wishes Dr Steven Plunkett 00:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The way it's done is to plug the redirect into the box and hit "go". Then, it will redirect you to the unwanted title, but, under the tag "from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia", it will say in small letters "(Redirected from Desired title)" and "Desired title" will be linked. Click on this and you will find yourself able to edit the page to remove the redirect and create the proper article. I wouldn't worry about harming any young singer's technique - if someone is trying to learn to sing from an encyclopedia they are already lost in the wilderness, and a couple informative articles won't hurt them any more or less. Also, Wikipedia is not censored, and probably has far more hazardous articles, such as the Bill of rights (pardon me, my nationalism is showing). Anyway, thanks to Kleinzach for his kind hosting, just wanted to keep the thread together. Mak (talk)  01:52, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, there's a start on Coup de glotte, and it leads to all sorts of other ideas. Thankyou very much to you both for all the above. Tomorrow is another day! Cheers Dr Steven Plunkett 03:51, 29 June 2007 (UTC)