User talk:Kleinzach/Archive 6

Pastoral Opera category / article
Hi! Thanks for your note suggesting an article and sources related to the new Pastoral opera category. I would be happy to create an article - but just to double-check - I see the previous message here on your talk page from Folantin, regarding the new article on Pastorale héroïque, which is almost the same thing as my "Pastoral opera"; however the operas that I categorized as pastoral are the very earliest Italian Baroque operas (as opposed to French). My source for using this terminology is the New Oxford History of Music; the criteria for calling them pastoral is similar to that in the Pastoral héroïque article - "drawing on Classical subject matter associated with pastoral poetry". The other sources that I have available to conveniently draw upon are Grout's History of Western Music and 15th edition Britannica - for Grove, however, I need to go to my public library and look at a print copy of it :) Anyway, let me know what you think regarding Pastoral opera vs. Pastorale héroïque - I will create the Pastoral opera article, with sources to back it up, if you don't think it is redundant to the Pastorale héroïque article, which was created after your message to me, as far as I can tell. Cheers, Lini 19:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Cut pastes
Heh, I only get annoyed at them because I always mess up when I try to fix them (that, and they mess up the page history). The correct way to move a page is to use the "move" tab, which is next to the history tab, and type in the new title. If it says you can't move it because there's another page in the way, it's best to just grab an administrator and have them move it for you, although I think they've made it so that non-admins can move pages over redirects, which was the case with the page you moved. Anyway, I managed to fix it without creating too many circular redirects or anything, so no harm done. Cheers, Mak (talk)  01:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

French plurals
I'll look into that. I have a feeling that hyphenated words only take one "s" (e.g. opéra-ballets) while separate words require separate plural endings (e.g. opéras comiques). --Folantin 11:17, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for invitation to join Opera project
Thank you for your friendly invitation to join the Opera project. I have done so! :) In addition to my name I've added a sentence about my current operatic interests, following the example of the Biography project membership list.

I fall into the category of those who are not experts in opera, but rather have become interested in it, want to learn more, and find Wikipedia both helpful in learning more, and in providing an opportunity for me to reinforce what I learn from other sources by enhancing what is already in WP with additional information, and/or "filling in the gaps".

I've become enthused by studying the craftmanship exercised both in creating an opera (the bringing together of libretto, composition, stagecraft, and performance) and in Baroque music in general (prolific creativity within strict structural form), so my area of interest right now within the opera project centers around the intersection of the two: Baroque opera. One interesting facet that I was unaware of before is that, when one starts to look at the history of Baroque opera, one can be drawn into reading about the craftmanship of theatre architecture as well, both because many aspects of the design of theatres as we know them today had their beginning in the late Renaissance/early Baroque, and because of the sometimes elaborate machinery necessary for the "special effects" that were popular in Baroque opera. So, one interest leads to another!

Regarding the Opera project - I have already been impressed by the level of active participation that I've seen in the project, and in the sensible consensus that the group has achieved in areas such as category structuring, the List of important operas, etc. So, I am pleased to be able to be part of such a project! Cheers, Lini 13:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Semele
No problemo. It's been good to have you back for a bit - does this mean we won't have you around until 2007 some time? Cheers, Moreschi 20:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Semele
You have destroyed work that took me two days. You make an arbitrary decision that Semele is an oratorio. It is not. You set up the Semele opera page for the Eccles alone, and then find yourself forced to tag on the Marais. What is this "split" rule? Why shouldn't a page titled "Semele opera" cover three works? How would you deal with this if the Marais were too well known to be buried in your Eccles? As it is, you are already misleading the Wikipedia reader about the Handel. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Andrew Powell (talk • contribs) 08:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

Semele and "Split" Issue
If a single page can be devoted to only one subject, how do you accommodate "Otello (opera)" or "Il barbiere di Siviglia (opera)" when these each have multiple composers? Doesn't the page have to become: -- EITHER a good narrative covering all the works (as I created and you destroyed for "Semele (opera)") -- OR a regular Wikipedia disambiguation page? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Andrew Powell (talk • contribs) 05:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

Andrew's case
I had no idea of its existance. If I remember correctly, he made some changes which I deemed to lower the quality of the article (he added some questionable POV statements and odd syntax), and he made no effort to discuss the issues on the talk page. I don't know why he didn't try to discuss the changes with me; it seems rather drastic to file such a request. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 02:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't worry about it. I wrote a short little response there, but I doubt anything will come of the case. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 18:22, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Good to see you back
Nice to have you around again. Progress report? Well, List of important operas is now featured after a great deal of work - over 300 citations(!) - and everyone is still, I think, recuperating from that, as it were. Orfeo ed Euridice is now a good article - thanks for your help there. At the moment things are on a bit of slow-down after the list got featured, as it was really quite some effort. But we certainly need to get Bellini month up and running. Incidentally, I've written a few singer biographies that have been on the Did you know section of the Main Page recently: Joseph Legros and Giuseppe Millico. Nick Clapton has done some superb work with the castrati articles this month.

Oh, and I just noticed the AMA business below. I just left this message, but the basic point is that topics which are capable of having a full encyclopedia article written on them always have their own page, regardless of whether they share that name with something else. That's true not only for opera but also for the whole of Wikipedia. If whoever at the AMA takes the case doesn't realise that, then feel free to ignore anything that comes out of the process. The AMA is a pretty discredited organisation anyway. If the mess carries on then ArbCom or, more realistically, requests for comment will sort out the problem. Cheers, Moreschi Request a recording? 13:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Alice Esty (soprano)
Hi there-- I saw you just changed this article title, and I understand your reasoning. The reason I did not name it that originally is that both notable people named Alice Esty were sopranos. I was considering (opera singer) or (operatic soprano) for the article you changed. I suppose a maiden or middle name would be ideal, since there was a slight overlap in their careers. What do you think? This disambiguation is as tricky as sorting out the two Jeannette Washingtons who sang, or the two Mike Evanses who box! Thoughts are welcome. Jokestress 22:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * They do not appear to be directly related according to any sources I have seen, but I cannot say conclusively. The younger Esty married a famous ad executive and took his name. The marriage announcement I found for the older Esty did not list a maiden name. Both were from New England, though. The older one appears to have moved to the UK shortly after marrying, while the younger one stayed in the US. Maybe someone has a good opera reference book that lists more on the older Esty. I found a lot on the younger one. Jokestress 22:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Opera titles
Hello from the Opera Project.

I see on a talk page that you intend to re-title some operas. I wonder if you could hold of on this until you have read the guidance sections on our project page. We have done quite a lot of work systematizing the titles based on WP policy and existing publishing norms. It is complex but obviously we wish to maintain consitency and avoid re-inventing any wheels. Best - Kleinzach 02:29, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Fine, but look at, for example, Template:Janacek operas and Počátek Románu. They do not agree.  -- Selket Talk 03:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Category:Operetta stubs
Hi, just to let you know, I have moved your deletion nomination to here with other stub categories up for discussion. Thanks, Malla  nox  01:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Ohio Light Opera
Dear Kleinzach,

I read your correction re Ohio Light Opera...this company performs only operetta (with the odd musical showing up since several years)

Robert Walton

Grétry and Auber
I've removed Lestocq, about which I know nothing, and added a couple of other major operas by Auber which have had recordings. Haydée can stay because it has an entry in "Viking" and I think it's regarded as one of his better pieces, although it's yet to be recorded. Cheers. --Folantin 09:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I've only just seen that. I have a copy of La muette so I can use the booklet notes as sources when I get the chance to overhaul the article. There's also a fair amount on it in the "Oxford Illustrated History", probably because that particular chapter is written by David Charlton who is a big expert on French grand opera as well as the opéra comique of Grétry and his era. If anyone could get hold of his books we could provide substantial articles on all the operas lined up for May, but sadly they've always proved elusive to me and I don't have access to a really decent academic library. I can't see any copyvios by Orbicle in that particular article - after all, you can't copyright facts. Cheers. --Folantin 10:09, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I've added the two new Aubers to the OC. --Folantin 11:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Plagiarism issues
Hi Kleinzach,

I welcome you to chime in here WP:AN where the main discussion is taking place. The problem is that Orbicle appears to be an otherwise excellent contributor but one who had either no regard for, or no understanding of, copyright issues. You cannot ever copy and paste from other websites, but that's what she/he did, as we keep finding again and again. There's a huge cleanup effort underway, covering about 250 articles, listed here: User:Gmaxwell/orbicle. I've found both new content and problem content as I've gone through these, but some other people have been doing more work than me there.

Copyright infringement is one of the gravest threats the project faces, and we're hard on it. That's why there are so many warnings around the "edit" box. When an editor denies there is a problem after being confronted, as Orbicle did here, usually the hammer comes down. At this point she/he should probably contact the unblock mailing list with a promise 1) not to do it again, 2) to help us identify other instances of copy-paste from other websites. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 15:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Re:'Wikipedia is not for plot summaries'
I'm wondering if Parkermusic misunderstood my comment when he completely deleted the plot summaries from the articles. The problem with the articles he had created was that they were completely plot summary, and they were not written with attention to the Manual of Style for fiction. It was not my intention for him to delete the summaries altogether; the only opera article of his that I edited was Signa (opera), where I put a rewrite tag on the plot summary. My wording "Wikipedia is not for plot summaries" comes from that page What Wikipedia is not. I hope my comment wasn't misunderstood as bias against opera articles, and I'll remedy Parkermusic's interpretation.  Leebo  T / C  02:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

French opera
Well, I haven't looked at it since Jamuary but I believe it is finished apart from the final touch of polish (the origins of French opera are probably more complicated than I've made out too, but the article is already slightly too lengthy). I'd be reluctant to put it up for GA though because, like many other editors, I think the whole GA process is a waste of effort. Getting Moreschi's Agrippina article to GA status was a complete nightmare and I told the GA reviewers as much at the time, so I'm probably persona non grata in GA land. I don't have the time to see it through the process this month and even if I did I don't relish the prospect of arguing over every comma and semi-colon. I'd rather we used our own rating system at the Opera Project to assess our articles. Lots of other projects seem to have given up on GA too in favour of this way of doing things. Thanks. --Folantin 14:52, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I hate most bots. I've seen some of them behave like runaway lawnmowers leaving a swathe of destruction across article talk pages which human users then have to clean up. Judging by the evidence I've seen this week I haven't got much time for Wikiproject:BIOGRAPHY either. The scope of the project is so vast it's megalomaniac, not to say perfectly useless. And don't get me started on those wretched infoboxes...Never mind, there are ways of countering clumsy colonisation by other projects. --Folantin 16:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Re: MartinBotIII problems
Hi - it's MartinBotIII which is tagging at the moment - MartinBotII's only job at the moment is to choose articles to appear in Wikipedia CD releases. As part of this work, it needs assesment data, which WikiProject Opera doesn't provide, while the Biography project is rather efficient at assessing articles. MartinBotIII and Kingbotk aren't just trawling through the Opera articles, but are going through categories indicating the date of death, and they do have consensus behind them. I notice that you are already in dicussion here, and hope that you can continue there to find some amicable resolution. Thanks, Mart inp23 10:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your concern re: infoboxes, but have no idea why you are directing them to me. MartinBotIII is not adding infoboxes, nor is it adding anything that asks for in infobox or a photo.  I invite you to take a look at the bot's contribs, and see what I mean.  Thanks, Mart inp23  11:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Comments added here. Carcharoth 12:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes - it may be an idea to continue the conversation at User talk:Martinp23, for threading purposes. Thanks, Mart inp23  12:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for my misunderstanding
Hi there, I've been wanting to tell you that I've felt bad about [|this]; that given the subsequent direction of the discussion, it would appear that I was being hasty, disregarding your stated wishes, or both; and in general those are two things I try to avoid! From my point of view at the time, I was interpreting an interval of silence on the subject as possibly tacit agreement along with a wish to distance oneself from the topic; and on the other hand felt both an expressed and implied sense of urgency to move forward with one proposed resolution to the problem in question. Finally, my intention in making an inquiry was just that (an inquiry, not a decision); to have more specific information on what would be involved, prior to a decision being made, with further opportunity open to decline.

So, although I don't fault myself here with actually being inconsiderate of others' opinions, I do fault myself with a poor attempt to "read" another's intentions, and I am sorry for that.

Hopefully the above makes sense; I did try to contact you by email requesting opportunity to explain slightly more at length, but I think my email to you may not have gone through.

Anyway, regarding the matter in question, I think it is good to let it rest for the time being; get on with working to make articles better; if, going forward, there seems to be evidence of significant "disruptive" activity, to try to carefully trace the source, and figure out possible remedies at that time.

Cheers, Lini 11:27, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Puccini
I saw the discussion on Talk:Giacomo Puccini and there was no discussion at all, only your opinion. I also skimmed through Composers Project and it is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen: no where does it say that all infoboxes must be removed from all composer's articles and for just about every person who agreed they should be removed there was another who disagreed. I don't care what you do with the Ludwig van Beethoven article, until another suitable infobox skeleton is created the old one will be staying on Puccini. NewYork1956 11:51, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Infobox
Greetings, Kleinzach. Yes: I have been watching that going on. While I believe the page is better without the box, edit wars are worse than having a page a non-optimum way, in my opinion. The experience of edit wars is one of the things that burns out good contributors--like you. I've been admiring how calm you have remained; it's a rare and fine quality here.

My feeling is that it can wait: maybe others will chime in. That's the reason I left the ghastly infobox on Josquin des Prez--it's not worth it to me to grind an axe there. Maybe we will devise an infobox specific to composers (which may be a reasonable compromise--indeed it may be possible to devise one that communicates useful information without leaving out subtleties). Perhaps then we can go through all the composer articles and replace all the boxes with a better one...

Cheers, and keep up the good work, Antandrus (talk) 04:39, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Hiller
Hi Kleinzach! I've done some more work on Johann Adam Hiller and need someone to a) look over my English and b) start work on the "Music" section in that article. I'm not familiar with Hiller's works nor do I know much about Singspiele. Is there a way to post such a request on the Opera Project Site? All the best, Matthias Röder 10:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Numa
I see that it was you who added the list of Bizet's operas, among which Numa :-) Can you remind where did you find this list? Thanks --Al Pereira(talk) 11:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Here is the French edit. More than 3 years ago!! :-) And the user was banned two years later: . I would like to join the Opera Project but my English is too poor. Thank you. Feel free to contact me about the composers whom I have worked about: Puccini, Bellini and Ponchielli. --Al Pereira(talk) 12:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Italian text

 * Yes, I can help with Italian text. Write me, if you need. Best --Al Pereira(talk) 05:09, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Unacceptable
Your deletion of my comment here (already reverted by another editor) was unacceptable. Andy Mabbett 16:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure that was an edit-conflict issue, it's not in Kleinzach's nature to delete others' comments. Mak (talk)  16:38, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The software is buggy, that can happen sometimes. Irishguy (I think it was him) once memorably wiped out half of ANI by mistake. Moreschi Talk 19:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I've done it too, on ANI and elsewhere. You don't always get an edit-conflict notice.  This ain't a bad idea, generally.  Antandrus  (talk) 20:01, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

This is to confirm that I didn't knowingly make any deletion. If I did make one in the course of editing, it was completely unintentional. --Kleinzach 00:31, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Misc.

 * I've sent an email of a couple words: please feel free to reply to that with whatever you want to send. Cheers, Moreschi Talk 14:47, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Likewise. Replied. And again. --Folantin 15:04, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Was I meant to have received anything? If so, something's not working somewhere, as I haven't. Cheers, Moreschi Talk 15:54, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Got it, though I had to rescue it from my junk: if I can't reply today UK time, I will tomorrow. The basic reply is "yes". Cheers, Moreschi Talk 19:44, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Replied. ++ --Folantin 13:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Mail! (hey, why do I feel out of the loop here?) :P Mak (talk)  02:04, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers
Please take some time to review WP:OWN. is not a "guest"; he is an editor just like you or I.--Isotope23 17:32, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Bouffes Parisiens
Hey Kleinzach, you took a lot of shit there over that one ill-considered and admittedly quite uncivil comment. Nonetheless, the response was incommensurate to the offense, particularly the borderline ad hominem attacks sent your way. Therefore, to keep wikikarma in equilibrium, I have gone ahead and translated from your wish list the article for the Théâtre des Bouffes Parisiens from the French. I invite you to review and expand it. Your wider efforts on opera are certainly appreciated. Eusebeus 06:47, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your apology
I appreciate your comments. I will consider joining one of these projects at some point, when I've had time to observe a bit more and see how they work. Gretab 07:31, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I do appreciate the note and the invitation to join the Opera project. However, in exploring the project further, I came across this comment concerning naming a category of opera in German. Could you please explain what the word "interlopers" means in this context?  Who  are the "interlopers" here? Gretab 07:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I am interested in a number of things, but I do like French music alot, especially French vocal music.  I have just created a new article about Jacques Leguerney, who was a friend of Poulenc's and wrote songs for Souzay and Bernac.

Thank you for your response. Gretab 08:29, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Signing talk contributions
Thanks for the advice, Kleinzach. Unfortunately, I keep on forgetting. But not this time Peter cohen 11:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:AIV
Thank you for making a report on Administrator intervention against vandalism. Reporting and removing vandalism is vital to the functioning of Wikipedia and all users are encouraged to revert, warn, and report vandalism. However, administrators are generally only able to block users if they have received a recent final warning (one that mentions that the user may be blocked) and they have recently vandalized after that warning was given. The reported user has not yet been blocked because it appears this has not occurred yet. If this user continues to vandalize even after their final warning, please report them to the AIV noticeboard again.

Chrisch 11:26, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

composer infoboxes
Hi! Can you show me where the consensus was reached among composer project participants where infoboxes were found to be counterproductive on composer biographies? Thanks! —scarecroe 14:57, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Official picture researcher
It sounds neat; may I know details about it? Is it for Wiki Commons? And about my question whether snapshot photos from our “legally purchased DVD”, can you check for me whether it is allowed? The priority goes to DVD opera movies staged many years back (below 1990s) – the moment that we can never substitute with anything today. - Jay 03:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Aucassin et Nicolette (opera)
Please have a look at Aucassin and Nicolette. --Tikiwont 09:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry for being too brief. I was just not sure how the comédie mise en musique relates to the chantefable. I (now) see that it they are not the same, but are they related or should they just be disambiguated in the header? --Tikiwont 09:57, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I wuld not know. Fo the moment I just added a dab notice on both pages. --Tikiwont 11:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Salieri et al.
There were a lot of Italian-born composers of that era (late 18th/early 19th century) who composed operas in both French and Italian. In some ways, I think it would be better to deal with them all as Composers of the Month for August and simply focus on a handful of their major works (I can only think of three Sacchini operas which would be more than stubs). I would remove Sarti, who AFAIK isn't part of this group, and add Piccinni and the two most famous composers in this category: Cherubini and Spontini. Maybe I'll raise this at the project talk page. Cheers. --Folantin 10:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)