User talk:Kudpung/Archive Aug 2020



I put this next quote by Tryptofish here because in view of the Arbcom case, it's practically verbatim what I would have said myself:

}\

I confess to crassness!

 * But in all seriousness Chris, I would ask that you reconsider your total retirement. Maybe a semi, whatever would fit your schedule and patience. But you are needed. Simon. Simon Adler (talk) 04:28, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 * +1 And Simon, I'll extend my appreciation for his occasional words of wisdom on my UTP and elsewhere on WP. I was also sad over the cancellation of Wikimania 2020 which was my big chance to finally meet the Kudz in person, dangit. To your ever-improving health, Kudpung! 🍻  Atsme  💬 📧 13:31, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 * In person he's an indescribable treat, especially if he can get his hands on a piano and a beer ;-) Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:02, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Green for hope
Today, we have a DYK about Wilhelm Knabe, who stood up for future with the striking school children when he was in his 90s, - a model, - see here. - Thank you for your position in the arb case request, - I feel I have to stay away, but there are conversations further down on the page, in case of interest, - in a nutshell: "... will not improve kindness, nor any article". - Yesterday, I made sure on a hike that the flowers are actually blooming ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:56, 26 February 2021 (UTC)



Arbitration Case Opened
You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Arbitration/Requests/Case/RexxS. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Arbitration/Requests/Case/RexxS/Evidence. Please add your evidence by March 13, 2021, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Arbitration/Requests/Case/RexxS/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, SQL Query me!  04:52, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Precious anniversary
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:41, 1 March 2021 (UTC) Thank you for standing up for integrity. We lost another good one. He designed this template, DYK? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:41, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Today: Carmen for TFA (on my request), with Bizet's music "expressing the emotions and suffering of his characters" as Brian worded it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:39, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

How about deleting the thread/t above? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:38, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Hope you're doing well
Hey, just dropping by to say that it's a breath of fresh air to still see your level-headed and informed responses around the site, even after that disastrous ArbCom case. Hope you have a great year,  Anarchyte  ( talk &#8226;  work ) 12:38, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you . It's refreshing to note that I'm not as evil as some people are still trying to make me out to be which nevertheless means I have to be careful what I say and where I say it! I haven't seen you around much lately but you're obviously very much on the ball and I certainly remember supporting your RfA 😀 Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 21:45, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi
Hi Kudpung,

I had a bit of free time on my hands, and I'm really not in the mood to edit so I thought I might take a moment to say hello. If I haven't told you before, I do really appreciate what you do here, and I'm glad you decided to stick around. I'll also say that I think you got a really raw deal a while back. Just wanted to wish the very best to you and yours. — Ched (talk) 23:35, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi, Thanks for the kind words. I think I got a raw deal, and if my bitterness shows through, it's only because I hope it doesn't happen again to anyone else. Trying to defend them as I do with as much caution as I can muster would get me stripped of the bit again (if some had their way) if that were possible, but right now I've got nowt to lose except the ability to make a few minor edits now and again 😉 Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:48, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I noticed this and sighed. I know you're all to painfully aware, but what wasn't said there is that "hatred has no guilt or remorse".  That's not to say your comment fell on deaf ears, there are a few folks well aware of the point being made.  I really appreciate your comments Chris. (hey - I've seen you post your own name - so no "outting" comments please - but feel free to delete if you'd like)  All my best. — Ched (talk) 23:17, 11 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Well,, sigh away - it won't help! If I hadn't stepped on two  or three toes and been stripped of the bit almost  a year  ago to the day,  last week I would have also reached the end of the proposed 10-year term and I wouldn't have minded in the slightest, and like others who reach pensionable age like I did a few years ago, would have rejoined the 'rank-and-file' with the dignity of knowing, like ,  that I had  not been lazy and that not all I did  over the years was 'very, very bad'. I've never published a full analysis of the 2019-2020 desysopings, but while I'm still sound of mind, now that I am semi-retired from Wikipedia and well into my 70s, I have nearly 40 hours a week more on my hands for other things, I probably will and now also include the RexxS case and its aftermath. It might not hit the The Guardian or the NYT best seller lists but it will be a good read for protagonists and antagonists alike, especially for them over on the Wikipedia hate sites.
 * What happens is that once someone offers a catalyst for opening  a case (and if they don't like you they will often scour your posts to find something), everything one has ever said is deliberately cherry-picked, parsed, and pulled right out  of context in order to infer something  damning that can be added as  fuel  to  the fire together with  any  anecdotal  evidence they  can dig up. It's almost a perverse sport on Wikipedia and the umpires only count the points and rubber stamp the result.
 * I can live without the admin tools (I did for years before I was cajoled into running for the bit), but the total character assassination that goes with the cases of some recent desysopings of really industrious and otherwise popular editors, is nothing less than a frenzied, collective heavy-duty PA by a pitchfork wielding mob (hang around and you'll see this post reported somewhere within the next 24 hours!).
 * Take RfA, ANI, and Arbcom as the trio of most popular fora of any kind on Wikipedia and you'll find that there is basically nothing wrong with the processes (although Arbcom has more bureaucracy than a military dictatorship). The actual problem with those venues all lies within the the behaviour with impunity, and the motivations of some of the participants. Do something about that and you've solved one of the major thorns in the project's side, and at the same time bring to book a few users who are as slippery as eels and manage to stay under the collective radar. Maybe The Signpost  will write something, but even their editors have to walk a tightrope these days and the once popular periodical (which I rescued from oblivion) has become little more than a newsletter and yet another platform for the WMF's self-aggrandising.
 * There is something decidedly dystopian lurking in the dank and steamy corridors of Wikipedia's  basements. Whether  there are people who would like to ban me for saying it, there really are some mean spirited users around - with or without advanced rights - and there are people who see themselves as Theseus and the sysops as  Minotaurs, but  throwing out the editors with the most experience, off.Wiki initiative, and institutional memory,   to damnatio ad bestias is not the kind of diversion that is needed on a serious Foundation flagship project..
 * Anyway, I won't  bore you  with  all the details, instead you, or any others (and members of this still active category) stumbling on this, might certainly wish to take 3 minutes to read  this short page now  in my archives. – Chris (Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:04, 12 March 2021 (UTC))

What a lovely image, Chris! The title, though, has an obvious spelling error. No time to read the above yet, I'll write one more article in memory of RexxS, and make a statement in the case, after all, - one diff. Not that it will change anything, - this user feels like Cassandre having said that the case would not improve kindness, nor an article. (see User talk:Hammersoft, always good reading) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:54, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Arb chat
Hey there Chris - I hope this finds you and yours doing well. I really like the picture - I might have to change mine. :-)  One other thing did cross my mind regarding the RexxS case, but I wasn't sure it was proper to mention at a case page.  It appeared to me that a couple ex-arbs were trying to heavily influence the outcome.  While all editors are encouraged to speak/type, I wasn't impressed with constant hammering at things. I know it's possible it's only my perception - but it looked like a couple folks were trying to throw their weight around as if their views should be given extra consideration.  Am I mistaken in my view? If not, did you experience the same thing?  Well, that second sort of answers itself I guess.  I know that your own case showed a heavy leaning toward one side.  IMO I'd expect a more respectful tone from an Arb (ex or not).  I would have thought time spent on the committee would teach one some balance, fairness, humility and perspective.  I'm now questioning that thought. Do you have any input? And if you'd like to speak more openly than wiki allows, feel free to respond in email. (or if you'd rather not say anything, that's fine too) — Ched (talk) 13:25, 24 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi . I have already hinted elsewhere the same thing about former arbitrators - some of it long before I was ever desysoped. Do take a look at  a couple of other threads further up on 's tp here and  here. He makes some scathing comments comments about Arbcom which  I  thoroughly concur with -  indeed, if I  were to have said  things like that they would have been dug  up and used against me on my arbcom case. This thread on 's page will also interest you. I've handed my tools in voluntarily twice in the past due to health issues, and if I were still an admin and if RexxS gets desysoped, I would hand them in in protest. Anyway, when the dust has settled -  RfC has failed and it remains to be seen what comes of  - I'll be shutting up for a while until the next popular, industrious admin is hauled before a kangaroo court by a mischievous, vindictive wannabe Wikicop. I really like,  but I'm afraid his vote will close the case; while I nevertheless respect his reasoning, there is an argument for not totally getting rid of editors like   whose Wikiwork is two-thirds  important off-Wiki activity that is not reflected in his edit count. Indeed, if all the time he has spent for Wikipedia were to be measured in ec, it would be a million, not a paltry 43K! These are things no arbcom members ever think of when voting to desysop. Some people, like , despite her initial reaction, will not be deterred from continuing to contribute, but others, and I, have things in RL that can keep us just as busy. That's all I'm prepared to say for the benefit of my 600 talk page stalkers; you have mail for the rest. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 16:34, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * One person worries me in all of this, and it's not an arb (current or ex). This person registered an account in late January 2018, and over the next 2 years 4 months made only 31 edits. Then their edit count exploded - on the first day of this new phase they made 38 edits, more than doubling their edit count overnight; in the ensuing nine months it has now passed 20,000 (incl. deleted). For somebody who did very little prior to June 2020, they seem to know a great deal about past events. They also seem to have collected an awful lot of hats too (one of them, rollbacker, was granted just eight days after they made their 32nd edit; and another, pending changes reviewer, followed just three days later) - they've never been an admin or an arb, but what might they try for someday? -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 22:13, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * You mean them who don't understand the meaning of ? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:27, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * , In my opinion, that page should be an essay, or better still an official guidance page. Even better still, it could replace the 5 Pillars. Section 4 is interesting and very often they are exactly the kind of people who won't let go. When they understand that the person they are baiting has walked away, they then make their next disingenuous move: they take the issue to a notice board determined to make believe they are in the right. They are not, of course, but they cherry-pick and take things out of context and the community believes them. I have some classic, irrefutable, recent examples of this but to mention them here would get me desysoped blocked or banned. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:30, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * , One former user with advanced rights has a behaviour pattern that would get any other admin dragged before a noticeboard - aye, there's the irony! While another stalks my edits and deliberately reads into them things I never said or intended to mean, and bullies me with them - this is a common sport on Wikipedia and it's a wicked psychological weapon. Quite a few well known people people do it and some of them have  ended up indeffed or desysoped but generally for some other reason, or quitely (or not so quietly) resigned from Arbcom and/or retired from Wikioedia. People have tried to pin the same tactics on me, but I'm not that devious, I just bluntly say what think or describe exactly what I've discovered - just doing my job being a former expert on COIN and UPE, smoking people out lost me my tools. As you say, one of the more sinister aspects of this project is that there are some banned/blocked/disgraced former admins and arbs who are ostensibly operating sock farms - nothing I can put my finger on though, but there is someone on another site who is bragging about it.  was probably the worst case in history, but it doesn't mean it can't/won't happen again, and it doesn't help if people who are good at discovering these things and who for example have access to the CU tools are constantly run off the project.  Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:30, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * , PS, I know exactly who you are talking about. It's actually blatantly obvious and what they are aiming at. They will never be an admin if I have anything to do with it. You have mail. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:03, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * , I suspect I can imagine who that might be, and if so, I fully concur.— Ched (talk) 21:09, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Why can't you directly tell ProcrastinatingReader you have a problem with them and think they're a sock? Moneytrees🏝️Talk/CCI guide 23:02, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * , because a) under today's climate if you are an admin it will get you desysoped. b) Who has said who it is anyway even if putting 2 & 2 together has the appearance of making 4? c) there's simply no sense in sending out warning signals to anyone without reasonable proof. d) If one were a user at WO, one could vent one's concerns there because that's the kind of place socks, blocked & banned users, desysoped admins, and other nasties hang out. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:16, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Somehow I managed to miss this half of the thread (laser-focused on my ping below, I guess) but if you have reasonable suspicions about an editor(s) please send them my way; if it is who I think you're referring to I will be very cross, but even if it isn't I'll do what I can do shut them down. Primefac (talk) 11:11, 26 March 2021 (UTC)


 * So RexxS has finally been desysoped. I'm sorry, despite some of the good stuff we've done together over the years, I feel I have been voting for the wrong people. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:30, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry you feel that way. To be honest, I'm not particularly thrilled with how this turned out either, though had I recused as initially planned this still would have ended up the same way (as regardless of whether I abstained or supported the motion it would have passed, and there just wasn't enough for me to oppose outright; I went through a dozen rejected draft replies to that remedy before finally reaching a conclusion). I don't think any of us ever want to sanction editors, but making hard decisions is what we signed up for. Not trying to make excuses, as I (reluctantly) stand by my position, but I hope that this one decision will not be the end of our relationship. Primefac (talk) 14:35, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I've always had a great respect for and consider him a friend and an asset to the Community–and not only because I have had the huge pleasure of meeting him in RL–and I fully understand his principle which caused the pile-on by you you and . However, such principles do not necessarily need to result in the harshest of remedies for which there is no turning back and no appeal, particularly one which in the case of some desysopings can lead to a genuine net loss for Wikipedia. Once elected to Arbcom, for some, the feeling of such immense power throws out all understanding for possible mitigation., one of the drafters, still has to vote, but it won't make any difference at this stage. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:32, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I have quite a history of holding admins to the involved policy, having filed two cases related to it myself, and presenting evidence in a few others. I take no pleasure in this but I truly feel it is one of the most important administrative policies we have. I'm aware that you and Rexx are friends and you really wouldn't like this, but I couldn't let that influence my decision. My hope is that you and others can maybe convince him he didn't need to be an admin to do most of the things he did for so long and he may actually be happier without the tools. I don't want him to leave the project entirely and I don't think anyone else on the committee does either. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:05, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * , I'm absolutely not criticising you at all for sticking to your principles, or even (whose principles are culturally bedingt) but I personally do not feel that everything needs to end in the harshest of remedies for which there is no appeal. My aim is to influence the decision of the Committee as a whole - although that sounds silly because it's made up of individuals anyway. RexxS is someone I like, is a pleasure to work with, and observe when he is working with others. Like me, he's a born instructor. He's someone whose house I would pop round to for a beer or maybe go out for a meal together with with our wives That's the kind of guy he is.


 * However - and it's a big 'however' - if I caught him doing something monstrous, it would be the end of a friendship and I would do whatever I had to do. It reminds me of some things that happened while I was in the army - worse things. The army (especially when stationed abroad in a large garrison, or in a conflict zone) is a good example because like working on a cruise ship or a large oil rig, or on a smaller scale, in a rock band or a theatre company on a long tour, it's one of those situations where people are forced to work and socialise very closely.


 * Wikipedia is becoming more and more a conflict zone, especially among the regulars (and some of the upstarts as mentioned above by ). There is something about this virtual place that stretches nerves as tight as a guitar string and  could sing us a song about that. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 22:09, 25 March 2021 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict several above but doesn't matter) I haven't followed any of the case, because RexxS left, whatever the outcome. Didn't ? In case I'd ever be cited to arbcom again, I will not participate. The one time I did was just a waste of time. I wanted infoboxes for operas and compositions, and got them in end, arbcom or not. If I learned one thing in the process it was patience - which isn't a bad thing, only the price was too high. - I miss Flyer22 and Yoninah. Three pillars of the community missing, - tough for us who are stubborn enough to stay. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:18, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * RexxS' case is a closed book,, it was as soon as the case request was made. He might, just might - and we can hope, continue his outreach work, but I doubt very much we'll see him around again on-Wiki. 's edit summary was FoF when someone doesn't participate: RexxS is gone. I'd probably better say it. I'm glad about one thing: that FoF3 totally failed and in doing so I hope it's set a precedent - it was one of the things that got me desysoped (of course there will be people who will come out of the woodwork to disagree with that). Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 22:36, 25 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pinging me, Kudpung. I haven't followed the current case, and have made a resolution not to get involved in dramahs this year (look how well that's worked out...) but I'll make these two comments, neither of them are related to desysops but are in general something people trying to go through RfA or other higher rights should remember:
 * Wikipedia is not going to be the only place on the internet where people who hate one another treat each other with perfect kindness like you'd expect in Utopia. If you come in expecting to create that, you're going to either burn yourself out or chase good people away, or most likely do both. Utopia doesn't exist anywhere, and certainly not on the internet. Learning to enforce our behavioural norms with an understanding of human nature matters.
 * There's usually a reason policies and norms are what they are, and many of the people who have been around forever remember the why. The most important thing I did when I came back was read the history behind these things and ask questions about why.
 * Some credit goes to for helping me think the last one. Not a critique on the current case or the current committee, but since we're commenting on people getting in different roles, running for RfA, etc. thought I'd add my probably overvalued commentary to the mix. TonyBallioni (talk) 01:17, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * (look how well that's worked out...) .. awww man. I said I was sorry. :-) — Ched (talk) 03:54, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * .I like your two comments. According to  one source: 'Kudpung collects people'. I'm  not  quite sure what  that  means and it's not  very  intelligent and lacks any  coherent  context, but based on  where (not necessarily 'whom') it  comes from  I'm not  surprised.  I  do however collect things to  quote. I've added your two pieces of advice to something I wrote. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 21:31, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-retired

 * Now that the RexxS issue is over and I've said my piece on a couple of adminship related RfC, I'm now taking a back seat again to let you all battle out your differences or smoke out socks and UPE without me. It's all taken up too much of my time. As always, for anything intelligent, my email is always available, and any trolling there gets sent, for better or worse, straight to Arbcom. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:19, 28 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Semi-retired- oh not again! I try to keep my head down to avoid wiki-savagery, but enjoy the company of the folk more competent than I. There seem to be fewer and fewer...ClemRutter (talk) 08:18, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Modest flowers
Thank you for what you said for RexxS --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:51, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – April 2021
News and updates for administrators from the past month (March 2021). Administrator changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg Alexandria • Happyme22 • RexxS

Guideline and policy news
 * Following a request for comment, F7 (invalid fair-use claim) subcriterion a has been deprecated; it covered immediate deletion of non-free media with invalid fair-use tags.
 * Following a request for comment, page movers were granted the delete-redirect userright, which allows moving a page over a single-revision redirect, regardless of that redirect's target.

Technical news
 * When you move a page that many editors have on their watchlist the history can be split and it might also not be possible to move it again for a while. This is because of a job queue problem.
 * Code to support some very old web browsers is being removed. This could cause issues in those browsers.

Arbitration
 * A community consultation on the Arbitration Committee discretionary sanctions procedure is open until April 25.

Discuss this newsletter

Subscribe

Archive Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:20, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

DYK for Eugénie Brazier
— Maile (talk) 00:01, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, a good one! - On this day in 1742, He was despised was performed for the first time, and when I wrote it in 2012, I didn't only think of Jesus (and now I think of you and RexxS and too many others). Andreas Scholl sang that for us, - you are invited to a Baroque stroll. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:20, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

More memories on the Main page today, Psalm 115 thinking of Yoninah, Christa Ludwig and Milva, - voices that made the Earth a better place. Sad that the psalm hook didn't appear on Earth Day as planned, but better pictured and late than going unnoticed ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:03, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Kudpung/Article deletion
Hi Kudpung! Would you be okay if I restored User:Kudpung/Article deletion and moved it elsewhere (since you evidentially don't want it in your userspace)? A couple admins link to it in their edit notice, myself included. -- The SandDoctor Talk 21:14, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi, quite honestly (I know my bitterness shows), I regret doing anything other than pure article contribution over the last 14 years, especially anything that might be useful for admins or quality control but that's the way Arbcom wanted it. I would have deleted all my essays, but most of them I stupidly moved to Wikipedia space. I expect  feels pretty much the same way about all his work for Wikipedia. Please undelete it and I'll I'll take a look at it and what links to it, and if I think it's useful, I'll move it myself - I think I still have that user right. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:04, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I am sorry that you feel that way, but understand the circumstances. My apologies for bothering you. Restored. I had written out something far longer here appreciating your various efforts for the project over time and have been rewriting for about an hour now, but trimmed it down to spare you a tldr of things you probably remember better than I do. The following is said with immense respect and meant in good faith. Regardless what some may say, please know that your work (articles, maintenance, Signpost, etc.) for the project has been invaluable. Your work to mentor others was something that I have found great respect in. As an extension of this, your comments at my RfA, for example, truly did give me pause and I believe them to have helped me become a better editor and admin. As I have learned through watching and action, being an admin or an editor is a generally thankless and underappreciated role; we don't spend enough time being appreciative of one another for their contributions and tireless efforts to improve the encyclopedia, which is a systemic flaw that seriously needs to be addressed. -- The SandDoctor Talk 03:02, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * , Thanks for the email and the kind words. and for the undeletion. I have significantly updated it (I wrote it about 10 years ago) - a lot has changed since then. However, that essay is only linked from your page as the sole admin to use it.  The only other user is  who hasn't made a single edit since 20 June last year. He didn't leave any reason for his precipitous absence, so I hope I join with many others in hoping he is OK in these difficult times especially in India. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:07, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * You're welcome & any time . Thank you for updating it. I thought I saw another admin in that list, my bad. Do you want to keep it in your userspace? If you want, I can move it to my userspace or somewhere else and update the links (or you can, of course. I'm just offering to do that work ). -- The SandDoctor Talk 05:52, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * there's nothing that needs to be further updated, I went through it very thoroughly. As you can see from the edit history, I originally wrote it only for my own use to link to when new users complained about deletions to save me having to write a lengthy explanation each time, so I never told anyone about its existence. I suppose I could just as easily have made a one-click paste-in from Typinator instead of making a user page essay. I'll obviously never have use for it again, Arbcom saw to that with great relish, but it can continue to reside in my user space and be linked to if anyone finds it useful. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:44, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Aahaan kap klaem
Hey, Kudpung! I was wondering if you'd be willing to take a quick gander at this to see if I've made any stupid mistakes? —valereee (talk) 17:24, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi, because it's you, and because it concerns Thailand, I'll drag myself out  of retirement  to  look  at  it  for you. At first  sight  there are at least  two  glaring  inconsistencies because whatever the sources say, the claims they make are totally  incompatible with  my very  broad experience here. They  may be based on older traditions that  have since died out. I've lived in  Th now for nearly  21 years with  8  years in  BKK and the rest  in  an extremely  traditional  rural are and I  have been married to  a Thai lady  now (and her large extended family) for 16  years, and since I retired from  academia 12 years ago I head up  a construction company with  over 60 employees from  all strata of society. So I  think I  know my  way around Thai  culture fairly well and although  I  might  not  be able to  find any  RS to the contrary, IMO those two aspects of the article are misleading. I'll  get back to  you  as soon  as I  can, but  I'll  first have to  consult  several people here. Take care, stay  well. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:54, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you! You take care, as well...I'm looking at the COVID stats for Thailand right now, I hope you and yours are safe and well. —valereee (talk) 16:35, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi, the claims in the article that give me pause are:
 * The term gap klaem is also used to refer to the Thai drinking culture in general. Not that anyone here in NE Thailand agrees with that. Most say that that aspect of the culture is dated.
 * beer [...] is consumed primarily by the well-to-do and for celebrations. IMO, false. Beer is typically drunk on any occasion and it is as popular here as anywhere else in the world, particularly Western countries. We have about 50 construction workers here from bricklayers to lorry drivers and they almost always sit together on the floor after work before going home, drinking beer and perhaps sharing one bottle of locally distilled rice schnapps for chasers. They might be snacking on buffalo beef jerky like one might occasionally have a bag of crisps or pork scratchings in a pub in the UK.
 * Many bars in Thailand are BYOB; customers pay for their mixers and food. Never heard of such a thing. People here are as less likely to take their own booze to a bar as Brits would to a pub.


 * That said, there is in fact no pub culture whatsoever in this country. Pubs for Thais simply don't exist. People just don't 'Go out for a drink', or 'Go up the pub'. There are no Rovers' Returns here. To be accurate, any bars that do exist are for the benefit of Western expats only and tourists who miss their local boozer or whose life back hoe revolves on going out on a binge, while the occasional Thai might wander in to see the zoo of drunken foreigners and 'lager louts'. There are traditional 'karaoke' bars - usually one in every village, often a ramshackle wooden shed thatched with coconut fronds, but these are strictly a front for the sex industry only and there is a room at the back for the purpose. Now that is part of the culture. In fact the use of Thailand as sex tourism destination for foreigners is only the tip of the iceberg. The culture is identical in the neighburing countries of Laos and Cambodia.


 * Things you would not, and could not have known: The sources in the article are mainly to books, but those books, like most books written by people on their way through the country, are OR and are rarely accurate reflections of everyday life because they are written from the perspective of a tourist or an expat. Therefore, the notability of the article rests on its sources, so I suppose 'sourced is sourced' - quod erat demonstrandum . Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:50, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Wow, thanks so much for the comprehensive comments! And, hm. That makes me question the whole thing. I got interested in the topic because it echoed some similar others -- Anju (food) for instance. So do you think it's not really even a thing, or maybe was a thing but isn't any more, or maybe is all just part of the tourist industry? I'm still the only editor, so I can just move it back to user space and maybe try to find better sources. —valereee (talk) 11:10, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * , don't get me wrong, the main thing is that the sources are there and undeniably support notability for the subject it discusses. I wouldn't dream of suggesting you put it it back into your user space, it will survive far worse than my tiny concerns. It's a good read and it informs and it's absolutely not totally wrong at all and I wouldn't be able to support my concerns about it anyway. It's well researched even if someone like me with local knowledge reads it a bit tongue-in-cheeck. Who knows? One day it might be another GA for you 🙂 Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 17:30, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, thank you. I think I'll pull back on the concerns you have, at least attribute them. No reason to include something dubious in wikivoice simply because an American who visited got a book published! I appreciate the help! —valereee (talk) 17:32, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – May 2021
News and updates for administrators from the past month (April 2021). Administrator changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg Enchanter • Carlossuarez46

Interface administrator changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg Ragesoss

Guideline and policy news
 * Following an RfC, consensus was found that third party appeals are allowed but discouraged.
 * The 2021 Desysop Policy RfC was closed with no consensus. Consensus was found in a previous RfC for a community based desysop procedure, though the procedure proposed in the 2021 RfC did not gain consensus.

Technical news
 * The user group  will be renamed to  . This is for technical reasons. You can comment at  if you have objections.

Arbitration
 * The community consultation on the Arbitration Committee discretionary sanctions procedure was closed, and an initial draft based on feedback from the now closed consultation is expected to be released in early June to early July for community review.

Discuss this newsletter

Subscribe

Archive Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 15:51, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

TfD nom
Just an FYI, I've nominate the Uw-NPR series of warning templates you've created for deletion, as they are not being used, pretty much at all. Elli (talk &#124; contribs) 20:01, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

today
See my talk today, - it's rare that a person is pictured when a dream comes true, and that the picture is shown on the Main page on a meaningful day. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:02, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – June 2021
News and updates for administrators from the past month (May 2021). Administrator changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-add.svg Ashleyyoursmile • Less Unless
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg Husond • MattWade • MJCdetroit • Carioca • Vague Rant • Kingboyk • Thunderboltz • Gwen Gale • AniMate • SlimVirgin (deceased)

Guideline and policy news
 * Consensus was reached to deprecate Editor assistance.
 * Following a Request for Comment the Book namespace was deprecated.

Technical news
 * Wikimedia previously used the IRC network Freenode. However, due to changes over who controlled the network with reports of a forceful takeover by several ex-staff members, the Wikimedia IRC Group Contacts decided to move to the new Libera Chat network. It has been reported that Wikimedia related channels on Freenode have been forcibly taken over if they pointed members to Libera. There is a migration guide and Wikimedia discussions about this.

Arbitration
 * After a Clarification request, the Arbitration Committee modified Remedy 5 of the Antisemitism in Poland case. This means sourcing expectations are a discretionary sanction instead of being present on all articles. It also details using the talk page or the Reliable Sources Noticeboard to discuss disputed sources.

Discuss this newsletter

Subscribe

Archive Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 14:45, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – July 2021
News and updates for administrators from the past month (June 2021).

Administrator changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-add.svg Trialpears
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg AGK • Eliz81 • Mulad • ThaddeusB • Vianello • Who
 * Pictogram voting rename.png →

Interface administrator changes
 * Gnome-colors-view-refresh.svg Ragesoss



CheckUser changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg AGK • DGG

Oversighter changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg AGK

Guideline and policy news
 * Consensus has been reached to delete all books in the book namespace. There was rough consensus that the deleted books should still be available on request at WP:REFUND even after the namespace is removed.
 * An RfC is open to discuss the next steps following a trial which automatically applied pending changes to TFAs.

Technical news
 * IP addresses of unregistered users are to be hidden from everyone. There is a rough draft of how IP addresses may be shown to users who need to see them. This currently details allowing administrators, checkusers, stewards and those with a new usergroup to view the full IP address of unregistered users. Editors with at least 500 edits and an account over a year old will be able to see all but the end of the IP address in the proposal. The ability to see the IP addresses hidden behind the mask would be dependent on agreeing to not share the parts of the IP address they can see with those who do not have access to the same information. Accessing part of or the full IP address of a masked editor would also be logged. Comments on the draft are being welcomed at the talk page.

Arbitration
 * The community authorised COVID-19 general sanctions have been superseded by the COVID-19 discretionary sanctions following a motion at a case request. Alerts given and sanctions placed under the community authorised general sanctions are now considered alerts for and sanctions under the new discretionary sanctions.

Discuss this newsletter

Subscribe

ArchiveSent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 11:27, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

ANI
I hope you're well - I've mentioned you at ANI (hopefully you got a ping!), this is a courtesy note. GiantSnowman 19:14, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Articles for Creation July 2021 Backlog Elimination Drive
 Hello :

WikiProject Articles for creation is holding a  month long Backlog Drive!

The goal of this drive is to eliminate the backlog of unreviewed articles. The drive is running until 31 July 2021.

Barnstars will be given out as awards at the end of the drive.

There is currently a backlog of over articles, so start reviewing articles. We're looking forward to your help!

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) on behalf of WikiProject Articles for Creation at 21:54, 7 July 2021 (UTC). If you do not wish to recieve future notification, please remove your name from the mailing list.

On UPE
I wasn’t as versed as I currently am when arbcom took that action against you, so back then when I read it I couldn’t make heads or tale of what you all were saying, however I was hospitalized for a while last week and decided to do some reading, I revisited that thread and knowing what I know now, I can see how it was particularly unfair to you, whilst I mat not support certain actions you carried out particularly regarding  and the tantrums you exhibited, I can however say without an iota of doubt that you were merely protecting the integrity of the encyclopedia. I see now that we share a similar ideology and a particular disdain for undisclosed paid editing. What I have learnt is, and this may be helpful to you(when I pray you return fully) is when leaving a UPE template on the Tp of an editor you should initiate a dialogue with the editor in question and whilst not spilling too much explain to them why you have left them the template, that way you wouldn’t be accused of “casting aspersions” or “making unfounded accusations” I can appreciate your frustration, as I have been in your shoes, in a recent ANI discussion where I was involved in, editors who I had correctly exposed for engaging in less than ethical practices saw the ANI opportunity as a way to get back at me and this mirrors exactly what you experienced in the Arbcom case. In retrospect I really do feel bad that happened to you, I mean you literally designed NPP and you were treated very unfairly. I hope you do come out of your semi retirement as your absence is felt. There’s is a dearth of anti UPE editors and I largely attribute that to the community vilifying anti UPE editors, and protecting “NEWBIES” who aren’t even “NEWBIES” honestly, is the only sysop holding down the forth. Please do return, I hope you consider this. Celestina007 (talk) 00:26, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi . Still determined to stay away from Wikipedia as much as possible (only made 20 edits in the last four months), but I happened to have my attention drawn by an email from a friend to the recent BHG issue. One thing linked to another an lo and behold, this strange individual is no other than the very disingenuous person who got me desysoped - and then immediately starts his obsessive socking and extremely unpleasant behaviour all over again under yet another new account! Heaven knows why  is so sympathetic to him. Perhaps they are not aware of his checkered past and all the destruction his blocks and socks have left in their wake. I naturally can't conceal my recompense that Sherlock has finally got his comeuppance, but it won't put right the damage Arbcom persistently does to otherwise industrious users. Mark my words however, he'll be back again with all his cunning. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:04, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I am not per se sympathetic, I am trying to be fair.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:31, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – July 2021
News and updates for administrators from the past month (July 2021).

Administrator changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-add.svg BusterD
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg Kees08 • Nickshanks • Protonk • Schissel • Ultraexactzz • Wknight94



CheckUser changes
 * Gnome-colors-view-refresh.svg TheresNoTime

Oversighter changes
 * Gnome-colors-view-refresh.svg TheresNoTime
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg ST47

Guideline and policy news
 * An RfC is open to add a delay of one week from nomination to deletion for G13 speedy deletions.

Technical news
 * Last week all wikis were very slow or not accessible for 30 minutes. This was due to server lag caused by regenerating dynamic lists on the Russian Wikinews after a large bulk import.

Arbitration
 * Following an amendment request, the committee has clarified that the Talk page exception to the 500/30 rule in remedy 5 of the Palestine-Israel articles 4 case does not apply to requested move discussions.

Miscellaneous
 * You can vote for candidates in the 2021 Board of Trustees elections from 4 August to 17 August. Four community elected seats are up for election.

Discuss this newsletter

Subscribe

Archive Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 14:18, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Wikimania 2021
As this Wikimania finished yesterday, I got to wondering what you made of it. It was originally planned to be in Thailand but ended up in Remo – a virtual venue which is so obscure that it doesn't have an article. But all the presentations have or will be archived on YouTube so you can sample them there.

I found it to be mostly just another social media platform – like Discord, Facebook, Twitter, Zoom and the like. The physical experience of a place like HK was missing – going to the recent Wiknic in rural Kent was more of an exciting expedition. But it was a lot cheaper and more convenient too. If they do something like that again, I have some ideas for making more of it.

While checking to see if you're active, I noticed you editing county. I was recently commenting at a related AfD and, in the course of that, read interesting material like Tolkien and the Counties of England, which explained the great influence of Tolkien's childhood in Worcestershire – a county that you know well, I suppose. It's a small world ...

Andrew🐉(talk) 11:00, 18 August 2021 (UTC)


 * , I applied to Eventbrite for a ticket, but I  found the whole thing  more complex and confusing  than catching  a few planes around the world and finding  my  way  round the corridors of a real life venue. Not  to  mention the actual time zone diofferences etc. I  looked at the programme and found it  wanting. Nothing  that  interested me directly, and the whole thing  was mainly  squatted by the WMF as usual, with  the usual self-aggrandising by  the paid staff, so  I  didn't  bother to  log in to  any  of it. Nothing  can replace a real event. With  the money  they  have saved for three years (becaise there won't  be a proper Wikimania next  year  either), they could make the next real Wikimania something  really  special, but  they  will probably  laud this social media fiasco as a resounding  success and decide to  scrap proper Wikimanias completely and go off on a WMF staff reward junket. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:30, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * , BTW, if you are interested in Tolkien, you might like this snippet from a good article I wrote about my home town. I left there permanently in the 1960s when I went to university in Birmingham but returned every year for a week or two for the next 50 years or so until my parents passed  away a few years ago. I'm extremely nostalgic about the region, especially the hills and the theatre, but I doubt now that I'll ever get back there - if indeed I ever make it back to Europe. The last time was at Wikimania in Esino LarioI. The local people and the organisers were very nice, the food and accommodation were excellent for once and it's a lovely alpine village, but I can't think of a less appropriate venue for a large conference and for many if us the impossible local logistics  put a  bit of a shadow over the event. I remember us Brits huddled around the TV in the hotel watching the results coming in live from the  Brexit referendum. If you bump into, do give him my regards - another Wikipedian I never had the honour of meeting despite all the Wikimanias I've been to including LDN. Taking about the Midlands, I wonder how Doug is getting on - he's nearly my age. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 22:53, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The anecdote about C.S.Lewis and the snow is good; I like his Narnia tales too. I've been to Malvern myself, when I was working in the area – stayed at a hotel up in the Malvern Hills, which was a nice place.
 * Doug attended the Wikimedia UK AGM as a retiring trustee but it was online with Zoom and he wasn't called on to say anything. I've not seen Tim since an event at the Royal Opera House some time ago but he still seems to be working away at this and that.  That's the thing nowadays – working from home.  And even if you want to go somewhere, it's not that easy.  I was planning a trip to the US this month but to do that, I'd have to spend two weeks in a non-European country first.  It's ok to go the US from Thailand but not from the UK; amazing...
 * Andrew🐉(talk) 23:22, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * , Yes, it's a nice hotel and an excellent restaurant. I've had many a luncheon there over the years while doing my research for the Malvern articles. If they ever do get round to organising a conference in Bangkok, I hope you'll come. I'll be there. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:12, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Short translation request
Hi Kudpung. I understand you are a near-native speaker of German. I will be grateful if you will offer an English translation of the byline of this Deutsche Welle article, and as much as the remainder of the article as you have the inclination for (paragraphs 3, 4, 5 are the most relevant for WP purposes). It's for use in the article Julian Assange.

Google translate gives "A key witness for the indictment against the imprisoned Wikileaks founder revokes his testimony and MPs from almost all parties appeal to US President Joe Biden - but also to Chancellor Angela Merkel."

Thanks for your help. Cambial foliage❧ 12:55, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
 * thanks for reaching out but I do not actively edit this Wikipedia any more. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:39, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Skillsets
Hi Kudpung, I didn't want to derail stuff on Clem's talkpage by going off at a tangent, but I did want to say something in response to your last message there. I'm sorry you don't want to be involved any more, but obviously that's your choice.

I can't speak to the 'power-hungry teenagers' point, but the 'can't write a decent article' thing isn't, I think, entirely fair. I like to hope I know how to write a halfway-decent article myself, and content creation is the thing I like doing most of all here. But it's not the only important thing. If we were producing an actual hardcopy encyclopaedia, we wouldn't only need to employ writers and researchers. We'd need project managers, copy editors, type setters, IT people, someone to do the accounts, probably an intellectual property lawyer or two, maybe some security staff to watch the building at night, someone to clean the offices, etc. We too need a range of different skillsets in our editor base, and in our admin corps, and on arbcom.

If, for example, someone has first-rate IT skills and is exceedingly good at detecting socks, and they want to volunteer their time to stop LTAs who want to harass our writers or vandalise our content, then I don't give a monkey's whether they are a good, moderate or even very bad writer - I'm more than happy for them to have the administrative toolset, and the CU bit, because they will probably do more good for the project overall in 30 minutes' work than I did in all the hours I spent writing my latest FA on an obscure Scottish building. There are a number of very fine writers in the admin corps, and on the current arbcom, as there should be. There are also people with different skillsets, which is also as it should be, in my view. Cheers Girth Summit  (blether)  11:40, 30 August 2021 (UTC)