User talk:LadybugStardust

Welcome!
Hi LadybugStardust! I noticed your contributions and wanted to welcome you to the Wikipedia community. I hope you like it here and decide to stay.

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Happy editing! Synorem (talk) 05:28, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Human Contraptions (April 10)
 Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Velella was:

The comment the reviewer left was:

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.


 * If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Human Contraptions and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
 * If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
 * If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Draft:Human_Contraptions Articles for creation help desk], on the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Velella&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:Human_Contraptions reviewer's talk page] or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

 Velella  Velella Talk 21:32, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

April 2024
Welcome to Wikipedia. Please do not remove Articles for deletion notices from articles, or remove other people's comments in Articles for deletion debates, as you did with Concrete TV. Otherwise, it may be difficult to create consensus. If you oppose the deletion of an article, please comment at the respective page instead. Thank you.  Velella  Velella Talk 21:33, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I added sources that established notability, so the notability template was no longer necessary. I see that you removed all of my revisions for no reason.  I restored my revisions, but the articles for deletion template is back on the top of the article.--LadybugStardust (talk) 22:13, 10 April 2024 (UTC)


 * No. You added text sourced directly from Concrete TVs own website. We can have no idea whether the quotes were true or simply invented. Removing an AFD template is considered vandalism and in general such edits are reverted in their entirety. If I had recreated the AFD script after your additional edits, it would not have tied up with the original AFD discussion which would then be in two duplicate parts.  Velella  Velella Talk 22:21, 10 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Well, the one from Boing Boing, I linked to directly from Boing Boing. The others, I am working on hunting down through Google Books.  It's very unlikely that they were invented, but I know that I have to find the original sources.  Like I said, I'm working on it.--LadybugStardust (talk) 22:26, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. It might not have been your intention, but you removed a speedy deletion tag from a page you have created yourself. If you believe the page should not be deleted, you may contest the deletion by clicking on the button that says: Contest this speedy deletion which appears inside the speedy deletion notice. This will allow you to make your case on the talk page. Administrators will consider your reasoning before deciding what to do with the page. Thank you. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 01:41, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi LadybugStardust! I noticed that you have reverted to restore your preferred version of Brendan O'Neill (columnist) several times. The impulse to undo an edit you disagree with is understandable, but I wanted to make sure you're aware that the edit warring policy disallows repeated reversions even if they are justifiable.

All editors are expected to discuss content disputes on article talk pages to try to reach consensus. If you are unable to agree&#32;at, please use one of the dispute resolution options to seek input from others. Using this approach instead of reverting can help you avoid getting drawn into an edit war. Thank you. Grayfell (talk) 18:55, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Your recent editing history at Brendan O'Neill (columnist) shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war; read about how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing&mdash;especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring&mdash;even if you do not violate the three-revert rule&mdash;should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. Grayfell (talk) 19:01, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Your recent editing history at Brendan O'Neill (columnist) shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war; read about how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing&mdash;especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring&mdash;even if you do not violate the three-revert rule&mdash;should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. Moxy 🍁 23:18, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Nomination of Concrete TV for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Concrete TV, to which you have significantly contributed, is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or if it should be deleted.

The discussion will take place at Articles for deletion/Concrete TV until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

To customise your preferences for automated AfD notifications for articles to which you've significantly contributed (or to opt-out entirely), please visit the configuration page. Delivered by SDZeroBot (talk) 01:02, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Introduction to contentious topics
TarnishedPathtalk 02:20, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Mama Lion


A tag has been placed on Mama Lion requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a band or musician that does not credibly indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the. thetechie@wikimedia :  ~/talk/  $  01:21, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Improving Mama Lion
Hi,

I see from the talk:Mama Lion that you've found some sources. Verifiability is one of the important policies of Wikipedia. Right now, the article has no sources. You will need to add them to the article. See Help:Referencing for beginners for some basic information. If you run into difficulty, I suggest you get some help at the Teahouse. -- Whpq (talk) 03:20, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Working on it right now. Someone else just nominated the article for speedy deletion again, so please remove their tag.--LadybugStardust (talk) 03:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Mama Lion
Hello LadybugStardust,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged Mama Lion for deletion, because the article doesn't clearly indicate why the subject is important enough to be included in an encyclopedia.

If you feel that the article shouldn't be deleted and want more time to work on it, you can contest this deletion, but don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. Thanks!

Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.

Hughesdarren (talk) 03:28, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Dude, we just did this.--LadybugStardust (talk) 03:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started
Hello, LadybugStardust. Thank you for your work on Oh Sun. Voorts, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with. Please remember to sign your reply with ~. (Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

voorts (talk/contributions) 02:38, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Noidan kirot moved to draftspace
Thanks for your contributions to Noidan kirot. Unfortunately, I do not think it is ready for publishing at this time because it has no sources. I have converted your article to a draft which you can improve, undisturbed for a while.

Please see more information at Help:Unreviewed new page. When the article is ready for publication, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page OR move the page back. Boleyn (talk) 16:37, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. The thread is Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Thank you. Grayfell (talk) 19:15, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

You have recently made edits related to articles about living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles. This is a standard message to inform you that articles about living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles is a designated contentious topic. This message does not imply that there are any issues with your editing. For more information about the contentious topics system, please see Contentious topics. &#126; ToBeFree (talk) 22:04, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Assuming Good Faith, Civility, and Personal Attacks
I ask you to read our policies on assuming good faith, civility, and personal attacks. Calling other editors "PC language police", evidence-free accusations of logged-out editing, and assuming that another editor doesn't like a subject are not acceptable behaviors on Wikipedia. Woodroar (talk) 16:43, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm fully aware of the policy regarding WP:PA, and I haven't made any. The admins at ANI are highly unlikely to block me for any of the so-called "personal attacks" that you cite.  And yeah, it's totally not suspicious at all that an IP address with only two other edits just happened to revert me in the exact same way that you did.  You still refuse to work this out on the talk page, which is what you claim that I need to do.  Your last edit was just hypocritically telling me not to edit war, which isn't resolving the issue over the article at all.--LadybugStardust (talk) 16:55, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * That was Grayfell who recently told you not to edit war. Buidhe also told you not to edit war earlier in the discussion. We're all different people, with 232k edits between us. It's possible that the IP address was Grayfell or Buidhe, but the place to make that accusation is at Sockpuppet investigations—with evidence. For what it's worth, I doubt it was either of them. Both have shown that they have no problem reverting your edits, so it's unlikely that they would log out to evade scrutiny.
 * I've broken down exactly why your edits aren't acceptable at Talk:Brendan O'Neill (columnist). In our discussion on my talk page, I also suggested workshopping any phrasing rather than adding it yourself. No other editors agree with you. If you really feel that this content belongs, it's up to you to build a consensus to include it, or to explore other dispute resolution options. Woodroar (talk) 17:23, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I got you confused with him. I think it's very likely (if not 100% guaranteed) that one of you was behind that IP address, but of course I can't prove it.  Again, I have repeatedly tried to work this out on the talk page.  The last edit that you made was just "I disagree", which is not helpful in any way.--LadybugStardust (talk) 17:39, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I'll be honest, I really didn't know what I else I could say. You're been trying to use sources to make claims that the sources don't explicitly state, like citing The Australian for O'Neill's free speech beliefs when they don't actually say anything in their own voice. They're quoting O'Neill, which means everything needs to be attributed. (If it were, DUE, which I don't believe it is.) Likewise, we can't use O'Neill's statements about how he would support debating Nazis (or whatever) to mean that he's a free speech absolutist. We can (and need to) paraphrase sources, but that's several steps beyond paraphrasing. We need to be careful to fairly summarize what reliable sources actually say, without reading into or analyzing them or making implications about that they meant.
 * As for the second "I disagree", I see where I perhaps wasn't clear about what we needed. When I said This section is also undue without several sources actually supporting the content, I meant several reliable, secondary/independent sources. More articles from Spiked or other debate participants (not to mention anti-abortion religious outlets that have been found unreliable at RSN) won't make it DUE. We're looking for reporting from reputable journalists/publishers that are unaffiliated with the story.
 * I really do hope this helps. We're getting away from behavioral discussions (which generally belong on user talk pages) and back into content discussions, which really belong on the article's talk page. Woodroar (talk) 18:15, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * On the first point, what about "Brendan O'Neill is a proponent of freedom of speech"? On the second point, the Spiked source was only used to back up O'Neill's POV; WP:DUE was established by the Vox source.--LadybugStardust (talk) 21:10, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * On the first, perhaps with more and better sources. We can't use the Sky News Australia source, per WP:RSP (The majority of articles labeled as "news" contain short blurbs and video segments, which should similarly be considered unreliable.) The Australian says nothing about O'Neill and freedom of speech in its own words, only in quotes from him and a headline, which isn't reliable. Reading through past discussions on RSN about The Christian Post, it appears that some editors find it reliable and others don't—meaning we really shouldn't use it until there's a larger discussion or an RFC. Personally, I'd want to see 3 or 4 unquestionably reliable, secondary/independent sources (per RSP) that essentially say "Brendan O'Neill is a proponent of freedom of speech" in their own words before I'd consider it DUE.
 * On the second, it depends on what you actually want to say.
 * Similar to the above, I'd be looking for 3 or 4 unquestionably reliable, secondary/independent sources (per RSP) that essentially say "Brendan O'Neill is pro-choice" or "is a pro-choice advocate" in their own words before I'd consider it DUE. Note that Vox doesn't say this, only that he was going to debate against the position of "abortion culture hurts us all".
 * If you're instead looking to highlight statements from the Spiked source, those 3 or 4 sources would need to do so—and I mean actually reference the Spiked source, calling out a statement like This is why I am pro-choice. I’m not pro-abortion from it. Not that Vox doesn't mention the Spiked source at all.
 * But I think all of this is putting the cart before the horse. We're here to summarize what reliable sources say about our subjects, roughly weighted by their points-of-view. That starts by assembling all of the reliable, secondary/independent sources and seeing what they say, rather than making a statement and finding sources that support it. Woodroar (talk) 21:50, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The Australian source talks about O'Neill going on Q&A to argue that "free speech is absolute". I'm sorry, but I just don't see how that isn't a reliable source which establishes that O'Neill is a proponent of freedom of speech.  Every single time that O'Neill has gone on Q&A or any other show that he's gone on, 99% of the time, it's been to argue for absolute freedom of speech, and more than half of his op-eds are arguing for absolute freedom of speech as well.  Yes, he has a hot take on pretty much everything, but this is by far his biggest thing, which is why I felt like it was more than WP:DUE to include in the article about him.  As far as the abortion thing goes, my claim was that "Brendan O'Neill describes himself as pro-choice", which is why I cited his "Why I am pro-choice" op-ed before citing the Vox source to establish that it was WP:DUE to include in the article.  If O'Neill's position on abortion was noteworthy enough to spark controversy at the University of Oxford, then surely it is, at the very least, worth two sentences in the article about him.--LadybugStardust (talk) 22:07, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * We're talking about this article in The Australian, right? Per WP:RSP, The Australian is considered a generally reliable source (with some caveats, which I think don't apply here), so that's not the issue. The issue is that The Australian doesn't say "Brendan O'Neill is a proponent of freedom of speech" in its own words. It only quotes O'Neill. If we had 2 or 3 more sources just like it, the most we could say is Brendan O'Neill has called himself a proponent of freedom of speech. It's like when Charlie Sheen made headlines for saying that he was a "warlock" with "tiger blood" and "Adonis DNA". Sources reported that Sheen claimed those things, not that he actually was a warlock or that he had tiger blood or Adonis DNA. Do you see the difference?
 * Perhaps it was O'Neill's position on abortion that caused the controversy. Or perhaps there would have been a controversy no matter who was invited to speak. It's impossible to say. Vox certainly doesn't, so we can't use it to say something that it doesn't. We also can't make our own connections between sources (the Spiked and Vox sources, for example) that they don't explicitly make. (That's synthesis, a kind of original research.) And no, sparking controversy isn't inherently worthy of mention on Wikipedia, only coverage in reliable sources is. In fact, a living person doing something controversial, like "sparking controversy", is exactly something we could never mention unless it was widely covered by the most reputable of secondary, independent sources. I urge you to read Biographies of living persons in full, and really take it in. What I and other editors are doing here isn't trying to censor Brendan O'Neill or keep important details from his Wikipedia page, but to ensure that what we do write about him (and others) is a fair representation of the available reliable sources—that Wikipedia isn't spreading gossip about him, attacking or libeling him, misrepresenting him, etc. Woodroar (talk) 23:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Someone saying that they have tiger's blood or Adonis DNA is not the same as someone saying that they believe free speech is absolute. The former is a patently false statement of supposed fact; the latter is a statement of one's personal views.  The Australian source has O'Neill saying that "free speech is absolute", which means that Brendan O'Neill, at the very least, can be said to be a proponent of freedom of speech.  But, if we're going to nitpick semantics to that extreme extent, then the sentence could easily be reframed as "Brendan O'Neill has repeatedly stated that he believes that freedom of speech is absolute."  As for the abortion source, Vox is recognized as a reliable source, and the article discusses a controversy involving O'Neill's views on abortion.--LadybugStardust (talk) 23:57, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but I'm not convinced. You're welcome to continue discussing at the article's talk page. Or here—it's your talk page, do what you want. I won't bother replying unless there are further behavioral concerns. Woodroar (talk) 00:41, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

"New Red Room" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=New_Red_Room&redirect=no New Red Room] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. NotAGenious (talk) 16:53, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Gender and Sexuality contentious topic notice
You have recently made edits related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them. This is a standard message to inform you that gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them is a designated contentious topic. This message does not imply that there are any issues with your editing. For more information about the contentious topics system, please see Contentious topics. --Aquillion (talk) 23:09, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, while the notice itself doesn't imply there's any issues with your editing, this is absolutely inappropriate. Calling something the official newspeak term now or saying that I would elaborate further, but I'm sure that, if I did so, several posters would go crying to the admins over someone spreading "transphobic hate speech" on a talk page aren't helpful ways to approach a contentious topic. --Aquillion (talk) 23:12, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * What rules did I break with that comment? None.  There are no personal attacks, no slurs, and nothing that could result in me being blocked.--LadybugStardust (talk) 23:31, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Among other things, saying that other editors will go crying to the admins is not WP:CIVIL and shows a WP:BATTLEGROUND view of the topic area; implying that what you would otherwise say would be seen as transphobic hate speech is likewise uncivil. Also, given your reaction, I do have to ask if this is your first account, since you give the impression that you're talking about what would happen from a position of personal experience. --Aquillion (talk) 23:40, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, the topic is inevitably going to be a battleground. It's always been a battleground.  And, considering the backlash that someone like J.K. Rowling has experienced for having the balls (no pun intended) to tell the truth about so-called "gender-affirming" medical mutilation, I'd say that my statement about users trying to shut me down if I elaborated any further is 100% accurate.  Which is why I didn't elaborate any further - this is not the place for a heated debate over transgenderism, and I recognize that.  As for your question about whether this is my first Wikipedia account: I'm not going to answer that because, quite frankly, it's none of your business.--LadybugStardust (talk) 01:28, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * It is mine as an Administrator. Please answer. Doug Weller  talk 15:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No, I have not had another account, but I have edited prolifically under various IP addresses (which change without my control) for years.

ANI notice
There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.Dronebogus (talk) 13:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

May 2024
 You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for persistently making disruptive edits. If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page:. Star  Mississippi  17:03, 3 May 2024 (UTC)


 * You know the comments are inappropriate and nothing in your comments above indicate you're going to edit productively with respect to transgender topics. You are welcome to your thoughts, editors are free to not have to deal with those edits in a collaborative environment. You are of course welcome to make a case for why you should be allowed to edit, but will need to answer the question about an alternate account and likely not be able to edit in areas affected by WP:GENSEX. Star   Mississippi  17:07, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * What edits of mine were disruptive, even regarding transgender issues? The last edit - the supposedly "transphobic" one - was actually asking another user how his language wasn't a violation of WP:NPA when he directly called someone a "transphobic wackadoodle" and I pointed out how, if the language were reversed, it would result in one being blocked from editing.  And no, I have not had other accounts, but I have edited prolifically under various IP addresses (which change without my control) for years.--LadybugStardust (talk) 17:36, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * And I explained how it wasn’t and you were. I can only assume you are willingly ignoring me to feign innocence. Dronebogus (talk) 17:39, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * First off, you are not an admin. Second, there is absolutely no scientific formula for determining what constitutes "hate speech" and your definition of "hate speech" might differ greatly from someone else's.  You claim that calling someone a "transphobic wackadoodle" is "calling a spade a spade", yet the exact same justification could be used for literally any personal attack.  Personal attacks are forbidden, even if they are against people that you disagree with.  I made no personal attacks; I pointed out what would happen if the language were reversed.  I have no political axe to grind here.  You clearly do.--LadybugStardust (talk) 17:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I don’t have to be an admin when you were blocked for the exact thing I reported you for. And I made myself clear at RSN. I’m not arguing with you a second time because you aren’t willing to go back and read it. Dronebogus (talk) 17:49, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I literally just responded to what you said at RSN. I could be wrong on this, but I'm fairly confident that the main reason I was banned was for not answering whether I was a sock, which I just did - no, I'm not a sock.  As for disruptive editing, I asked the admin to clarify which edits of mine were disruptive and then you chimed in with "I already told you" when I was not even addressing you and you are not an admin.  Once again, I have no political axe to grind.  I am a radical centrist.  You self-identify as a communist.  I don't think I need to say any more about who is more biased.--LadybugStardust (talk) 17:54, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Last time I checked dehumanizing trans people wasn’t a very radical centrist thing to do. Dronebogus (talk) 17:58, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * If you don't think to tell the truth about so-called "gender-affirming" medical mutilation complete with scare quotes is disruptive, I'm not sure what to tell you. Star   Mississippi  17:55, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Nomination of Mama Lion for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Mama Lion is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Mama Lion until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished. Mdann52 (talk) 11:52, 26 June 2024 (UTC)