Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pilot (30 Rock)/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 15:53, 29 August 2008 [1].

Pilot (30 Rock)[edit]

Nominator(s): [User]Jamie JCA[Talk]
previous FAC (04:45, 10 June 2008)


Since this article's previous nomination, improvements have been made to the article and a peer review has been completed. I now believe that the article meets the criteria. I'm happy to resolve any problems anyone finds in the article. -- [User]Jamie JCA[Talk] 19:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments by Sceptre (talk) 00:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments
    Overall, it looks good.
    Passes my 20kb baseline for episode articles. Below that, I feel that episodes should be GAs, but not FAs.
    Lede
    Is there any relevance to the airdate in the UK? I can understand why the Canadian airdate is included; shows such as Battlestar Galactica sporiadically get their first airing in the UK. The only relevance I can think of is that it's exactly one year after its premiere in the US. -- done
    "The pilot was originally going to be set at a cable news network, but this original idea was rejected by NBC. Then, in 2004, Fey once again approached NBC with a similar idea." - you could tidy this up. Try the use of semi-colons to remove the word "but", and the words "going to be", "then" and "once again" are dead weight. WP:1A would be helpful for you. -- done I'll take a look at WP:1A now.
    "Liz Lemon, who is" - dead weight. -- done
    The third paragraph could do with a bit of restructuring. Try something like: "Several characters are introudced in the pilot: Liz Lemon (Fey), the head writer of the fictional sketch comedy series The Girlie Show; Jack Donaghy (Alec Baldwin), the network executive; Kenneth Parcell (Jack McBrayer), the NBC page; and the writing staff and cast of Lemon's show". -- done
    Plot
    Passes guidelines at WP:WAF; reasonable length. (around 13-14wpm is fine for half-hour shows)
    How long does the hot dog scene last? Is it relevant to the plot? Also, I think you could tighten the wording there. -- done I've reworded it and the scene only lasts for the first minute or two of the episode, but it is relevent. It's refared to many times during the episode and it displays one of the characters traits, that they "hate it when people cheat, or break rules".
    "Running down Highway 405 naked." - specify which Highway (numbered) 405. As a Death Cab for Cutie fan, I instantly thought of the 405 that bypasses Seattle. Readers in Oregon and SoCal may think of their respective interstate bypasses too. -- done I assume it was New York State Route 405, that is the only New York road listed on List of highways numbered 405. I'm not familiar with U.S. road as I live in the U.K.
    Production
    "was then reworked" - remove "then" -- done
    "As part of the contract, Fey would have" - "As part of the contract, Fey was required" sounds better. -- done
    "The pilot which became 30 Rock was about the head writer of a variety show who has to manage her relationships with the show's volatile star and executive producer. The storyline evolved into one that dealt with a head writer of a variety show who dealt with both the stars as well as the variety show's new network executive." - very repetitive. Variety is the spice of life. -- done I reworded as well, the sentence was a little misleading as it wasn't really the plot which was changed so much as the characters.
    "This was until August 2006 when executive producer Lorne Michaels announced that Dratch would no longer be playing the role in the series." -> "In August 2006, executive producer..." -- done
    "Despite this, Michaels did say that Dratch would appear in various episodes in a different role" - this is linked to the last line, so write it as linked. -- done
    "As promised by Michaels, Dratch appeared in eleven of the first season episodes. Her various characters were..." -> "As promised by Michaels, Dratch appeared in eleven of the first season episodes in various roles:", and then delimit the roles using semicolons (see WP:1A) -- done
    "Greta Johansen who is The Girlie Show's cat wrangler" -> "Greta Johansen, The Girlie Show's cat wrangler". Do the same for the other few that do that. -- done
    "Additionally, an uncredited actress" - remove additionally -- done
    What is the purpose of that image, exactly? Are those screenshots from two different episodes, or two different versions of the pilot? -- done Two different versions of the pilot, i've clarified that in the caption.
    Reception
    "In the U.S., the episode remains the highest rated episode of the series, in total viewers, although..." - try removing "although" and some extraneous commas. -- done
    "...the episode "SeinfeldVision" currently holds the title of the title of highest rated episode of the series in the key adults 18–49 demographic" - repetition, and dead weight wording (specifically, "key adults") -- done
    "rating of 2.9/8 in the key adults 18–49 demographic according to the Nielsen Ratings system. The 2.9 refers to"... move "Neilsen Ratings" to before "2.9/8", to remove the awkward "according to" statement. Also, it's not within our job to explain the Nielsen system in detail; interested readers can click the wikilink. -- done
    "on episode of Ugly Betty, "Pilot"" -> "the Ugly Betty episode "Pilot"", or "the Ugly Betty pilot" would be better. -- done
    "Shepard would later direct an episode of season two of 30 Rock, named "Episode 210"." - I remember the GAR for that article; it's not called "Episode 210" (or anything). "Shephard would later direct the tenth episode of 30 Rock's second season" would be less awkward. -- done
  • Thanks, Sceptre (talk) 20:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments. I've sorted them. -- [User]Jamie JCA[Talk] 23:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on images

  • Image:30 Rock season 1 episode 1.png - The fair use rationale should indicate why it is important to have a shot from this particular scene. Who the copyright holder is also needs to be included in the description.
I'm going to replace that image with a more relevant screenshot anyway so i'll change the rationale. -- [User]Jamie JCA[Talk] 17:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Changed. -- [User]Jamie JCA[Talk] 18:15, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Replacement is better and sufficiently explained. Awadewit (talk) 20:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image:Rachel Dratch and Jane Krakowski as Jenna DeCarlo & Jenna Maroney.png - The fair use rationale should indicate specifically what the major production change was that the images are illustrating. Who the copyright holder is also needs to be included. I'm also not convinced that this comparison is necessary. The text does not say much more than that one actress replaced the other - must the non-free images be used to convey this? There already is a free image of the actress chosen.
Removed -- [User]Jamie JCA[Talk] 17:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I hope these comments help! Awadewit (talk) 15:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments. -- [User]Jamie JCA[Talk] 18:15, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image concerns have been addressed. Awadewit (talk) 20:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose—premature nomination. Poorly written; needs serious copy-editing throughout. I suggest withdrawal and the forging of new collaborations with word-nerds who are interested in this area (see edit-summaries of edit-history pages of similar articles to identify possible users). Surgery required just about everywhere.

  • Opening sentence: "The pilot episode of the American situation comedy series 30 Rock was the first episode produced and broadcast for the series." Um ... when is the pilot episode not this? Seems circular and redundant; it's not a good way of engaging the readers first up.
  • The title of the article is a real problem, or maybe I'm being dumb. Switch the parenthetical with "Pilot" and it's a little better.
  • "The idea ... first arose"—did it arise a number of times?
    done [User]Jamie JCA[Talk] 17:38, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The pilot was originally set at a cable news network"—Do you mean "pitched at"? -- I'm not sure what you mean.
  • By "pitched at", do you think that 30 Rock was originally going to air on a cable channel? By "The pilot was originally set at a cable news network" I mean that the actual series was going to be about cable news and not sketch comedy. I'll clear this up in the article -- [User]Jamie JCA[Talk] 17:38, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:CONTEXT breach in the linking of individual years.
  • "The series was then given the green light to enter production in May 2006"—Spot the redundant word.
  • "finished third in its timeslot among total viewers as well as adults aged between 18 and 49"—Was I a "total viewer", I wonder? "all" might be better.
    done -- [User]Jamie JCA[Talk] 17:42, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Use passive voice only where there's a reason to; here, it makes the sentence clunky: "The performances of Jack McBrayer, who plays Kenneth Parcell, and Jane Krakowski, who plays Jenna Maroney, were praised by critics." No, "Critics praised the ...".
    done -- [User]Jamie JCA[Talk] 17:42, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's two paras; that's quite enough to represent the issues. Tony (talk) 08:53, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll go through the article and try and fix the problems and look around for anyone who will copyedit the article. Some has been done by GrahamColm. -- [User]Jamie JCA[Talk] 17:38, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments by Moni3
  • I'm not sure I've ever reviewed a TV article for FAC. Consider yourself oh so very lucky, because I laughed out loud twice while reading this article. "Honkey Grandma Be Trippin'" has got to be the best name for a movie ever. And I'm disappointed that the government doesn't hire more chicken nugget inspectors. Seriously - those nuggets require intense vigilance.
  • Ok. I actually looked at previous FAs for television pilots. This article seems to be in good shape in comparison to those. I think I'm leaning toward support for this (and not because it made me laugh).
  • However, apart from Tracy Morgan's antics, Tina Fey's, Alex Baldwin's, and Jane Krakowski's characters aren't described in any detail. What are their characteristics? Who are they now in the pilot (vs. what they will become?). I actually know more about the varied parts Rachel Dratch plays than the qualities of the main characters from this article. Let me know if you have questions. --Moni3 (talk) 13:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the comments. I'm not completely sure how I could tackle this without it seeming forced in. Any suggestions that you have about how I could do this? Would a paragraph in the production section or a new character development section help? -- [User]Jamie JCA[Talk] 18:10, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever cited information you can find that describes the main characters of the show should probably be placed above the paragraph with Rachel Dratch's information. Since that will be then two paragraphs about characters, you could probably create the subheading "Character development". --Moni3 (talk) 18:45, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll write something in my sandbox first and add it later today. I'll do a casting section instead as it is more relevant and fits more with the information about Dratch. -- [User]Jamie JCA[Talk] 19:16, 26 August 2008
I've tried to do what you suggested, but i'm not 100% sure it's what you were looking for. I've tried to make the production section less focused on the Dratch re-casting. I'm just about to go through it and clean up the prose. -- [User]Jamie JCA[Talk] 21:42, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Oppose by karanacs for now. I've done a copyedit on the article, which will hopefully satisfy Tony's concerns. However, I think the article is not quite comprehensive. The plot summary leaves much to be desired. It goes into too much detail (although I've trimmed quite a bit) on some of what Liz is doing but, as Moni points out, does not mention Kenneth and barely describes Jack or Jenna. Considering that these characters are mentioned prominently later in the article, they should be introduced here, I would think. Karanacs (talk) 21:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've tried to add more information on Jack, Jenna and Kenneth in the plot section. I've only mentioned Kenneth in one sentence in that section because he only appears in 2 scenes in the episode, so he didn't really have his own plot, or story, in the episode. -- [User]Jamie JCA[Talk] 22:27, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The plot summary is not consistent. Sometimes, the name of the actor is given when the character is introduced and sometimes not. Some characters are described when first introduced (Liz Lemon, the head writer, etc) and some are not (Kenneth). Try to read over the summary again and see how it would look to someone who has never seen the show. Karanacs (talk) 15:33, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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