Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Say Say Say/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 17:39, 30 March 2010.

Say Say Say

 * Nominator(s):  Pyrrhus 16  20:58, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it meets the FA criteria. The article documents a collaboration between two of the most successful artists of all time; Paul McCartney and Michael Jackson. It was a number one single in several countries, and the track's short film was influential in bringing dialogue and storyline to music videos. I look forward to any comments and suggestions made. Thanks,  Pyrrhus 16  20:58, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Comments. Dab links, external links, and alt text still all good. What have you done to address the concerns raised during the previous FAC? Ucucha 21:03, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Information has been added about the song's composition and lyrics, and a wider variety of Beatles/McCartney sources have been consulted.  Pyrrhus 16  21:09, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment: I've performed some minor tweaks, and also made a correction to what I hope was a mistake in the caption: "playfully dabs shaving foam onto Michael Jackson's face in the music of 'Say Say Say'" --> "music video". I would also suggest reducing the quality of the sound clip from 124kbps down to around 70; taking a few seconds off as well would be beneficial, but not essential. - I.M.S. (talk) 23:26, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, there was a missing word there; thanks for spotting that. I've reduced the quality of the sound clip to 61kbps. Hope this helps. Thanks,  Pyrrhus 16  12:49, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Great; thanks very much. - I.M.S. (talk) 16:33, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Support although I have a minor quibble. Can you either rewrite the Personnel section in summary style or integrate its material into the rest of the article? I just always hate to see lists as sections in Wikipedia articles. Ignoring or satisfying this request will have no impact on my decision as I thought the rest of the article was fantastic, but I still think you should do it, if only to improve the article's visual appeal at the very least. You could also just remove the section entirely as it's not really that important to understanding the subject.  UBER ( talk ) 03:48, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your support. I have integrated the credits into the production section. I hope this helps. Thanks again,  Pyrrhus 16  04:35, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks much better now. Good luck! UBER ( talk ) 05:23, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Support. While I still do think that the article was FA material in it's previous nomination, the recent edits (suggested by the editors above me) definitly made the page better. From what I can see, the article is well written and sourced. Crystal Clear x3 [talk] 10:03, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Support looks wonderful now. --Legolas ( talk 2 me ) 04:28, 18 March 2010 (UTC) Comment
 * 1) References 46-51 + 19, repeat the same content in the sources. Can be definitely replaced by one Hung Medien source to save article space.
 * Done. Crystal Clear x3 [talk] 13:55, 17 March 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) Also, why are the charts divided and clubbed togetehr with the portal? Make the charts in a single table (there are not much providers) and place the portals in the external links where it is suitable.
 * Done. Crystal Clear x3 [talk] 13:55, 17 March 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) Ref 31, since you are citing Billboard magazine, needs its volume, issue, issn etc.
 * Done. Crystal Clear x3 [talk] 14:07, 17 March 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) I see the song charted at #1 in Norway, Sweden and USA. But where are its succession boxes? As per discussion at WP:CHARTS, succession boxes are deemed necessary as a means of continuing progression through the #1 peaking articles.
 * Done. Crystal Clear x3 [talk] 14:29, 17 March 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) Ref 9 ie the Musicnotes.com link should be a treelink, ie without the url, as per discussion at WP:RSN.
 * Done. Crystal Clear x3 [talk] 13:58, 17 March 2010 (UTC)


 * File:Saysaysay.jpg, remove the black borders. Upload a new version with a little more brightness. Michael is looking too much Thriller-esque.
 * Done. Crystal Clear x3 [talk] 14:46, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Ping me and let me know if these things are resolved, or if you are having trouble understanding any of them. I will lend my support over the outcome. --Legolas ( talk 2 me ) 09:51, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Oppose (for now) Sorry to be a wet blanket, but I think the article needs work, in terms of both prose and research. Sasata (talk) 16:30, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * lead: National Coalition on Television Violence - any link for this?
 * There is no article for it and I can't think of any appropriate place to pipe it to. Perhaps Censorship in the United States? Though, that might be too broad and it doesn't mention the NCOTV.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * might consider linking con artist
 * Done.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "Journalist Geoffrey Giuliano writes that McCartney stated that the song was written by he and Jackson on the top floor of the musicians' London office." judging from the placement of the possessive apostrophe, it seems like Jackson & McCartney shared an office…. is this true?
 * Yes, it appears so from McCartney's own words: "[Michael and I] sat around upstairs on the top floor of our office in London."  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "At this time, Tug of War, McCartney's first solo album after the disbandment of his group Wings, was also being recorded by the former Beatle." why use the passive voice? -> At the time, McCartney was recording Tug of War, the former Beatle's first solo album after the disbandment of his group Wings.
 * Done.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "McCartney later stated that he had a lot of fun working with Jackson, though added that the experience did not compare to collaborating with John Lennon." -> he added. I'm not sure how to interpret this statement; McCartney saying it "did not compare" is meaningless.
 * Removed the part abot Lennon.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * might be worthwhile to link pop song, as the article explicitly defines the song as being categorized as one
 * Done.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "…and sung in a vocal range from F4 to Bb5" should that be B♭5?
 * I think so. Done.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "The lyrics to "Say Say Say" are about attempting to win back a girl's affection …" is this really all anyone has written about the lyrics?
 * Yes, that's all there appears to be on the lyrics.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "The song had initially peaked at number ten in the UK and was slowly dropping in the charts. An interview was subsequently held with McCartney, who discussed the song's music video." Needs context. When was it dropping? Immediately after its release? When was the interview held? After the song's release, or after it started dropping? Who held the interview? (see here)
 * I've attempted to clarify that the interview was held after the single's decline in the charts. The sources do not state who conducted the interview or on what programme it aired.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "Screenings of the video on Top of the Pops (who only played singles that were rising in the charts and uniquely played this as it was falling)," who -> which?
 * Done.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "… and the single was also within the top ten of Austria, Australia…" within -> in
 * Done.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "later certified platinum by the Recording Industry Association of America, for shipments of at least one million units." what does "shipments" mean in this context?
 * Attempted to clarify that it is wholesale shipments to retail stores.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * spelling fix due->duo in quotebox
 * Done.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "It was filmed in Santa Ynez Valley, California, where Paul McCartney had to fly out to Michael Jackson as the younger singer's schedule was busy." who's younger sister? The previous sentence talked about an older sister. Also, according to this source, the video was filmed more specifically in Los Olivos (in the Santa Ynez Valley)
 * Noted that it was filmed in Los Olivas.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Still unclear about the older/younger sister. Sasata (talk) 04:54, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It says younger singer, not sister. :)  Pyrrhus 16  05:04, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Lol! I read that like 4 times and didn't catch it! Guess I forgot to take my brain medicine this morning. Sasata (talk) 05:11, 20 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "Jackson drinks the potion and challenges a large man, who along with Linda is also in on the scam, to arm wrestle." awkward
 * Reworded.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "After Jackson wins the rigged contest, a crowds of people"
 * Fixed.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "Upon its debut, the National Coalition of Television Violence classified the music video as too violent to be aired." Could this be expanded a bit, i.e. their justification for doing so? Reading the section on the video, I can't see anything that could be thought of as "violent", so it seems incongruous to me.
 * Expanded the detail surrounding the survey in order to clarify.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * there's more that can be said about themes in the video:
 * "blackface" performance aspect see here
 * Doing.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Done.  Pyrrhus 16  01:48, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Jackson/McCartney as child/man; cinematographic allusion to a 1931 Chaplin move (see here
 * Doing.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Done.  Pyrrhus 16  01:48, 20 March 2010 (UTC)


 * recording labels are mentioned in the infobox, but not the article text
 * Done.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * this source says the release date was Oct 15, different than what's in the article
 * That just notes the date in which "Say Say Say" reached number one in the charts, not the release date.  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * might be worthwhile to add a quote from MJ himself about his thoughts on the collaboration from here
 * Done. Thanks,  Pyrrhus 16  23:26, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the prompt fixes. I think it's closer, and have struck my oppose. I'm still underwhelmed by the prose, and hopefully another reviewer will come along who's better at massaging text than me and spiff it up a bit. Sasata (talk) 04:54, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Support (moved comments to talk page) with just a couple more things (if I find anything!):


 * ""Say Say Say" reached number two on the R&B chart and number three on the Hot Adult Contemporary Tracks chart" - which countries?

Other than anything I might find (which will surely be minor), this is a nice, well-researched article, and I'm happy to lend my support. Parrot of Doom 22:57, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your support and copyedit. I've noted that the two charts you mentioned above are US charts.  Pyrrhus 16  10:07, 24 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "Jackson's seventh top ten hit"—I'd hyphenate "top-ten" to make it easier to read.
 * Done. Crystal Clear x3 [talk] 10:23, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Why are common terms linked? "Music video", "con artists", "publishing rights", percussion, synthesiser, guitar and bass guitar, Los Angeles? orphanage? (On LA, there is no need to regurgitate "California".) An audit is required (but the links under "Themes" are good, IMO).
 * Done. Crystal Clear x3 [talk] 10:23, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "Upon" and "debut" with the grave accent could be a little pretentious. :-)  Tony   (talk)  08:13, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. Crystal Clear x3 [talk] 10:32, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


 * PS Pyrrhus, why does your signature spew bolded text all over the place? It's disruptive, I'm afraid. Tony   (talk)  08:14, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments. My signature is black and red because that is the way I wanted it when I joined Wikipedia in 2008 and there was nothing at WP:SIG stating that it couldn't be bolded. The guideline only states that signatures cannot be in  tags and   markup, or line breaks.  Pyrrhus  16  11:06, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Bolding the date is a bit much, perhaps --Jubilee♫ clipman  12:46, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps. I will remove the bold from my sig in future FACs, etc, as I can see how it can be considered distracting if one is trying to locate bolded "comments", "supports" or "opposes". Regards,  Pyrrhus 16  13:10, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Comments
 * What's that "Key moment" box thingie in there? I didn't see that it added anything, and it was distracting.
 * Why was it considered too violent? Did I miss that part?
 * The bit about Jackson buying Northern songs was interesting, and all, and I'm sure it should be in some article somewhere, but I'm not sure it should be in this one. Suggestions? &bull; Ling.Nut 15:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking a look at the article.
 * I've integrated the box quote into the prose of the article.
 * No sources elaborates as to why the "Say Say Say Say" video was specifically considered too violent. It's noted in the article that "The coalition included physical and verbal suggestions of violence, as well as acts of abuse, in their observings of around 900 music videos", which suggests to me that it could have been the arm wrestling part of the video, as the coalition appears to be comprised of the oversensitive "Won't somebody please think of the children"-type of characters.
 * I believe that the Northern Songs bit should stay, as it is an important part of the recording history of "Say Say Say", as well important to the histories of The Beatles, Michael Jackson and the music industry as a whole. The words McCartney said during the recording of this song influenced the legacies of two of the biggest acts of all time. A young black man owning the rights to The Beatles' songs was an upset for many people at the time, and was one of the reasons the British tabloid press turned on Jackson. A lot of the news regarding Jackson, including his death, is said to stem back to the music catalogue he owned, which he wouldn't have had if it weren't for the conversation that took place during the recording of this song.  Pyrrhus 16  16:43, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.