Wikipedia:Irish wikipedians' notice board/Archive09

County Dublin Map
While I hate to be inconsistent with maps, when I created the infobox for the village/suburb of Dublin, Foxrock, I realized that it was inadequately represented in relation to the city itself. I decided to highlight slightly the urban area of the county in order that we better show where these town/village/suburbs are. At least this way, we remain consistent with Traditional County graphics while providing the advantage of being able to still demonstrate relation, to that most large and important city, Dublin.  &#08492; astique &#09660; talk 16:30, 22 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, that works well. Great idea.
 * Of course you do realise that Cork will get jealous and demand the same, and Limerick will have their usual moan that half of "greater Limerick" is in County Clare and ... :) (not serious!) --Red King 18:45, 22 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, we will free the Clare Occupied Terrorities some day! Hatta al-nasr, hatta al-nasr, hatta al-Cratloe Seabhcán 14:20, 24 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Not to mention the enclaves of Raheen and Castletroy which currently comprise occupied Limerick City. The county council would do well to remember the city motto, Urbs Antiqua Fuit Studiisque Asperrima Belli. We shall take their provocative new headquarters at Dooradoyle (just outside the tiny restrictive city boundary!!!) first. /tongue in cheek
 * zoney &#09827; talk 22:58, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm afriad I don't understand Bastique's reasoning behind changing the maps of Dublin in the town infoboxes to show the "traditional" county area as opposed to what actually exists on the ground. Not only is it a departure from consistency, but quite simply the information is wrong - and creates logic errors between many of the geographical articles. By that reasoning could we not bring up maps of the Pale and show where the Dublin towns are within that? That would have about the same relevance. Perhaps this needs to be made into a debate, but these pages should be entirely consistent one way or another. The terms "traditional county" and "administrative county" (outside the legal context) are both unfortunately rooted in Government inadequacy in making an effective transition between the two; and both stem from public interpretation of elements that seem to establish pseudo-legitimacy of both. What is clear is that all that is holding "County Dublin" together at the moment is a string of poor Government policies, and Wikipedia should reflect - even expose that. 11 years ago County Dublin was abolished without any serious consideration or consultation for or with the public, and now it is the responsibility of the Local Authorities alone to "clean up the mess" so to speak. Wikipedia should not be on one side or another, but merely state the objective truth. In February 1994 it was members of the Dail who reacted ambivalently to what they themselves had created 4 months previously i.e. Deptuty O'Toole 02/02/94: "I thought I had lost my way home when I suddenly found myself in a strange county." The new county boundary signs were removed, the legislation was not touched, and Dublin essentially entered a decade of ignorance. The most amazing thing of all is that most Government Depts. including Dept. for Environment Heritage and Local Government interpreted the removal of the boundary signs as a change in the legislation, but it was only the first of a series of blunders that has made this entire issue into such a mess. Wikipedia should not attempt to pull the wool over the public eye for the sake of ease, comfort, or style of articles. If people living in Swords or Skerries for example do not like the fact that they are now in "County Fingal" then so be it, at least then they can focus their disdain on the policy makers, and be given a chance to express reservation before - how some might see it - our country is fundamentally tampered with like this again. In the meantime however Wikipedia users deserve to know exactly where they are, what groupings they are being assigned, and what unit of Local Government is supposed to be representing them. Other users have not depicted Bratislava as being in Czechoslovakia for the sake of using "traditional" national boundaries. I welcome additional comments on this issue but would move to properly depict all towns in the Dublin region accordingly. If this means showing the urban city area within the new county boundaries, fine. Also, the NI counties were not replaced with counties, there is no conflict there, and no comparison with what has happened in Dublin.

LocGov 11:56, 31 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Dude, it's not my reasoning, which is probably why you don't follow it. Why do you think there's a County Fingal map to begin with?  Somebody made it...  But I just followed up on everyone else's comments.  Try reading back--look in the archives while you're at it.  &#08492; astique &#09660; talk 11:56, 31 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Nevertheless, he does have a point, even though it was I who argued that using the new mini-counties would make a dog's breakfast of things (it sounds from what LocGov writes that this about sums up the position on the ground too!). As a compromise, how about modifying the County Dublin map slightly, to show the internal boundaries of the new metroplitan counties in the overall county map? Unfortunately, it puts pressure on you do the same in the Northern Ireland ceremonial counties and new Districts.  I wonder if we can learn anything from English practice on this one? (though that has been a dog's breakfast too, with many attempts over the years!) --Red King 12:19, 31 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Listen, you guys all decide on whether you want Dublin split into four areas and then decide on Tipperary&mdash;and then tell me what maps you want to see. I'll be here.   &#08492; astique &#09660; talk 12:57, 31 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I think the only solution is for you to provide all three forms and let the editor choose which is appropriate according to the context. Some explanatory doc to guide the choice would be helpful - maybe LocGov could provide that.
 * - Traditional county within Ireland
 * - Modern admin county/district within Ireland
 * - Traditional county with the modern counties/districts delineated.
 * --Red King 14:34, 31 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree that counties in Ireland are a difficult problem and particularily in wikipedia where accuracy is essential for the project to be seen as professional. Essentially the problem is that Ireland has three categories of county: 1. "traditional counties of Ireland" 2. "administrative counties of the Republic of Ireland" and 3. "ceromonial counties of Northern Ireland" - in addition "districts of Northern Ireland" should be considered independently as these are largly administrative and are not widely used day-to-day and maybe reformed (eg the Royal Mail PAF uses counties). All counties are at least in one categories with most in two. Personally I am for placing emphasis on administrative counties (but not eliminating the traditional counties altogetheir) in the Republic as this is most appropriate way forward, however previously when I raised this some objected rather loudly and thus we have today some indecision as to the way forward - no blame on present company. On a fundemental level what I am proposing is a recategorisation in line (eliminate Category: Counties of Ireland and Category:Counties in Northern Ireland which are a mish-mash of conflicting ideas) with above is needed to clear up any ambiguity as to status. Djegan 18:10, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Irish Collaboration of the Week (Fortnight?)
Is everyone aware that we have an Irish Collaboration of the Week? No? It seems to have fizzled with Zoney's departure from Wikipedia, as the page hadn't been updated since February. Personally...I think its time we pick a new one...and there were a couple ideas up there. If we go by overall Wikipedia standards, we're looking for stub articles and not just articles in need of attention. I do like CGorman's Irish Diaspora idea for collaboration. Anyway...We should get it going again, a/la Wikipedia Collaboration of the week standards. The Australians maybe have the right idea. Theirs is called the Australian Collaboration of the Fortnight. How bout it? &#08492; astique &#09660; talk 05:50, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Ouch! Looks like that page got archived.  Maybe we need to start the Irish Collaboration of the Fortnight, after all! &#08492; astique &#09660; talk
 * Collaboration of the Month might be more realistic. And we should give it a promonant position on the Irish Portal. The Irish diaspora article is a good candidate as its quite general and touches on many areas. But to advance it we need good info on Irish emmigration to South America and Africa (There was a surprising amount of this in the 19th Century, but its not as well recorded as US and Australia. Particularly, there was a mail-order-bride service for Irish women to marry South African boar farmers - but v little info is available) and also mainland Europe. I suggest we aim to reorganise the article a little (perhaps into sections on the periodic mass-emmigration waves, ie. "Following the famine of 1760's", "Following the famine of 1840's", "During the Economic War" (When the bulk of the southern Irish unionist population left for britan). It might also be nice to integrate the article with "Irish place names in other countries" somehow. Seabhcán 10:11, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

However it can be very difficult to keep entusiasim up and many people can find a topic boring. I think we should be a bit more imaginative; heres what I propose:
 * We call it Collaboration of the Month
 * We select two articles for the month to ensure that people don't leave the project because their interests are not covered.
 * A list of names of those interested in working for the month on each article is created - this would ensure collaboration is made easier and remind those who signed up at the beginning of the month about their initial interest.
 * Two project managers are decided upon now to basically maintain the COTM page, keep it fresh, and post reminders to people to vote - I'll offer to share the job with Bastique.


 * Maybe my propsal is a bit too different for some... any comments. CGorman 11:46, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I've had a better idea (in my opinion anyways!) I've created a much more laid back, but hopefully more effective project called Irish featured artictle drive. Take a look at it if you are interested - however if you dislike it, then im sure it can run alongside ICOTM/ICOTW. CGorman 13:06, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * ICOTx can be useful but I think it has largly been a casualty of its own success as it vastly improved articles early on but it has the effect of over concentrating - instead I think that the to do list should be overhalled and particular needs and areas identified for future expansion - move away from specific to generic and let individual or groups of contributers work towards an overall goal of expanding the quality and quantity of irish related stuff - would this work? Djegan 13:50, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I think we can have it both ways. I think people are just waiting to be able to do something... there have been a number of names added to the Irish Wikipedian lists in the last week or so, of course, they're not all watching this page.  When people get gentle friendly notes on their talk pages, however (copied over and over again from page to page, busy work, my favorite kind), then they're often more likely to help out!   &#08492; astique &#09660; talk 14:01, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * For an 'Island Nation' there are very few maritime articles. I suggest that we create a few.  My offering is Innisfallen--ClemMcGann 14:37, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Map Dots
You all might be aware of a problem with the city and town maps&mdash;if not, the dots are not lining up in the right locations. What happened is that Wikimedia fixed a potential malicious code and in return wound up messing up this template as well as a number of other, unrelated templates. The problem is being reversed. If you're interested in all the techie details, you can find it at Bug 2309.  &#08492; astique &#09660; talk 02:40, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Bug 2309 has been resolved. The dots are in the correct places on the map. You may now resume normal operation.  &#08492; astique &#09660; talk 12:17, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Copyright vio on fr:
I happened to be looking up sources on French and while reading up on County Mayo locales, such as Achill Island, it began to sound an awful lot like a travel brochure. Sure enough, the link at the bottom led me right to the site from whence the text was copied. And I though it would be a good source for information. Seems like the French tourism site has the same stuff as [www.mayo-ireland.ie Mayo on the Move's] site. So much for using French.  &#08492; astique &#09660; talk 04:11, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Help! That same person has just "fixed" all our County Mayo articles with copyright violation text, and I have to rush off to work! The source of the text is tourism Ireland website. If someone could look through and revert practically every city in County Mayo, I'd be most appreciative....  &#08492; astique &#09660; talk 12:45, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

See Tiatia.  &#08492; astique &#09660; talk 12:48, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm reverting - even if its a govt. agency, its still probably copyright, its all unwikified and it doesn't come close to the MoS if its PD. --Kiand 12:58, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * And its done. Sure, we probably should have gone through the full copyvio process for each and every page but its a waste of time really, the history has a warning and disclaimer on it and isn't spidered anyway....--Kiand 13:08, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * It's also very annoying. I was immediately familiar with the text as I've used those pages as resources for writing articles.  If I could have simply copied the text, I would have.   &#08492; astique &#09660; talk 15:48, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The user in question just from a mayo-ireland.ie email adress claiming to have permission to import the data, as they work for the site in question... --Kiand 13:12, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * The copyright on the material is still questionable whether or not the user works for the company. There needs to be a release from the company or more specifically a notice on their website permitting free distribution of the material.  Plus the articles are written with West Ireland Tourism in mind, and are not encyclopediac.   &#08492; astique &#09660; talk 14:26, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

History of Waterford
Can anyone help me finish off this article? I started it by taking text that someone had cut and pasted on the Waterford page. I edited the text a bit, but it only goes up to 1850 or so. Is there anyone here who can help with bringing it up to date? (also, some images would be good) Cheers, Jdorney 16:56, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Today FM
I was listening to Ray D'Arcy this morning. He briefly mentioned Wikipedia; apparently thats where they look for information for Fix it Friday. CGorman 13:36, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh, that was my doing - There was a discussion on that show about the scientific basis of firewalking, which was full of all sorts of spoofing. I naturally went to the Wikipedia article, and texted Ray to point it out to him. He didn't go into the content of it, but mentioned that it explained everything, and that ended the discussion. Shortly before this, he had mentioned Wikipedia as a research tool, but this may have been prompted by my (or other) texts, rather than his use of it. (Though I'd be seriously surprised if they didn't run some or all of their questions through here) RMoloney 20:50, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I thought nobody would ever answer. You're in UCD, im heading into 6th year now and strongly thinking of going there to do Commerce. Have you any warnings about it or is it the place to be? The open day was a really powerful marketing event when the best was brought to the front and (i guess) the shit was put to the back! So any comment? Thanks. CGorman 09:30, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Collaboration
"Every week, a lacking Irish topic is picked..."
 * - Can I nominate the ICOTW? :-P J OHN C OLLISON (An Liúdramán) 22:15, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Yep! Wikipedia Ireland has really collapsed over the past few months. I've an excuse (im an admin at Wikinews), but what are the rest of you at ;). CGorman 14:48, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * My excuse is I've finally reached an "upload complete" situation. Everything I know about Ireland is already in wikipedia. Everytime I read something new, and go to type it up, I find it's already there in even greater detail. Perhaps it's time to find a different hobby. Seabhcán 11:25, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Roads in Ireland
Hi all! Yes, I'm back in a sense (I'm hoping not to edit as much, and I'm not using watchlist or persistently checking articles).

Just to inform ye all what I'm up to at the minute. I've created more articles for the National Primary Routes in Ireland (see Roads in Ireland). I've also created a Regional Road article, about that classification of road, incorporating a list of "R" routes. I've been adding these routes as I come across them in other articles (e.g. towns in Ireland), by added a redirect link at RXXX road to Regional Road. The reason for this is that even some regional roads may end up having articles at some stage, for example, the R509 road (Childers Road in Limerick).

I'm going to do the same thing for National Secondary Routes, although perhaps some of these will have their own articles just like the primary routes.

If there are any Northerners here, we could do with articles for the more major A routes in the North.

zoney &#09827; talk 14:19, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Time to stand up.
It was revealed today that Minister McDowell has signed an agreement with the US government to allow US forces such as FBI and CIA to arrest, detain and question Irish people on Irish soil. Part of the aggreement is that the irish government will maintain secrecy on these actions. The Irish Council for Civil Liberties (ICCL) has called it "an appalling signal of how the rights of Irish citizens are considered by the minister when engaging in international relations". Read these:.

If this makes you angry and scared, join me in writing to McDowell, your local TD and the President, to voice your concerns. Politicians listen best to letters and phone calls, but e-mail is good too. minister@justice.ie (Office of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, 94 St. Stephen's Green Dublin 2, Telephone: + 353 1 6028202, Fax:  + 353 1 6615461)

The agreement still needs to be ratified by the Dail. Make sure your TD knows your views on this. Seabhcán 16:14, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

PS. I have posted a copy of my letter to Minister McDowell here. Seabhcán 11:10, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Christopher Columbus in Galway?
request to Galwegians:

I wanted to add a little something to the [Galway] page, namely the rumor that Columbus was there to pray in St. Nicholas' Church and that, moreover, he was given certain evidence of land existing beyond the Atlantic Ocean. I remember from my time in Galway there is a stone on the Spanish Parade (? near the bridge anyway) that says just this; if I remember correctly, the stone was dedicated to the city of Galway by Columbus' native city of Genova? Would any of the Galwagian contributors be so kind as to check this on his/her next trip to the city center?

Go raibh maith agaibh

--Robin.rueth 12:34, 26 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I do not have a source (nor am I from Galway), however I recall reading that Columbus met a man from China in Galway. He said that he came to Galway from the West! --ClemMcGann 13:09, 26 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Ask and ye shall receive: COLUMBUS MONUMENTS PAGES Seabhcán 14:12, 26 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I've found another (Creative Commons licensed) picture that I've posted there. I also added a note on the subject to the Christopher_Columbus page, it's in the Early Life section. I'd be grateful if someone with more profound knowledge could review it. --Robin.rueth 10:49, 27 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Just read that, very interesting, very bizare. But the document seems to say Columbus was off the coast of England. Where is galway mentioned? Seabhcán 11:31, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

That's just an editor's footnote, to be found in my text: "Armand defines as “English coast” the territory of Galway in Western Ireland" - one key issue would be to know a little more about this Armand.--Robin.rueth 12:06, 27 July 2005 (UTC)


 * It could also be a translation artefact. In (modern) Italian, "L'Inghilterra" usually means the UK rather than specifically England. So "la costa inglese" could mean the "British" coast rather than the English coast.  The text talks about material arriving on the current (the gulf stream), so I suppose it could be Cornwall.  But it does seem that the sages of Genoa/Genova, who have access to more detailed material, have decided that it is galway. --Red King 13:28, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

out of date article?
Can somebody have a look at Chief Herald of Ireland? there is reference to may 2005 legislation and legal problems, but the article hasn't been updated. Circeus 19:51, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

nuclear power phase-out
I would appreciate some help to extend the part about Ireland in the new article on the nuclear power phase-out. I have the politics of several other countries covered, but Ireland is still missing. Anybody interested? BTW, I also need reviews. Please post here. --Ben T/C 09:45, August 14, 2005 (UTC)


 * I've added a bit into the Other Countries section. Don't think there's a whole lot more to say about Nuclear Power in Ireland..  AndrewH 10:43, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


 * thanks. --Ben T/C 11:12, August 14, 2005 (UTC)


 * Hmmm... apart from the fact that we oppose it, and nuclear fuel reprocessing at Sellafield. Yet we're building an interconnector to buy electricity from the UK (not just NI) that in part comes from nuclear power.
 * How typical.
 * zoney &#09827; talk 14:15, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Deletion list
Hi folks,

I just wanted to let you know that there is a list of transcluded deletion debates on Ireland-related articles. You can find it here: WikiProject Deletion sorting/Ireland.

If you find this list useful, please help to keep it up to date by archiving old items and adding new ones. Thanks!

By the way, new members are needed at WikiProject Deletion sorting. Hope to see you there!

-- Visviva 17:45, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Image Request
I recently found an image for George Reavey at although I'm not sure if it's within fair use. 209.213.71.78 01:55, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Irish nationality law - Review request
I've been working on the article on Irish nationality law. Can someone with a legal eye give it a look over? There are a series of these articles in Category:Nationality law. Cheers, Seabhcán 10:50, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Requests for comment/Lapsed Pacifist
For your information. Susvolans ⇔ 08:01, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Photos from geograph.co.uk
Geograph at http://www.geograph.co.uk/ is attempting to get a photograph for every Ordnance Survey grid square in the British Isles. The good news is that images are cc-by-sa-2.0 and available for use at Wikipedia. Coverage of Ireland is unfortunately a bit thin, as can be seen from the overview map on the right, so if anyone wants to contribute that might be a good idea. Dunc|&#9786; 16:25, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Local chapter
This is just testing the water. There's long been a plan to set up a local chapter for the UK, which has also prompted thinking about the possibility of extending this chapter/work into Ireland. I've left a note on that talk page in June - no takers yet, but I'm just checking to see what people here think: is this something that people consider 1) valuable 2) viable and 3) something you would like to have a part in? Answers here or on that page - it's still pretty blue sky thinking. Cormaggio @ 23:44, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Norwood, Bronx, New York
Greetings from the Bronx. I just wished to ask for assistance related to an entry on a New York neighborhood that Irish Wikipedians may be able to help with. Basically, I'm editing an article on a local neighborhood here, Norwood, (also known as Bainbridge and Little Belfast) that for a stretch between the 1970s and 90s had a thriving population of both Irish nationals and folks from the North fleeing the Troubles (for perspective, we're the area where Black 47 first got its start).

While trying to recall some of the recent local history, I remembered that there was one bar in particular, The Phoenix, that was raided sometime in the 1990s before Good Friday, and found to be smuggling arms to the Provisionals. I was very young back then, but I believe there was a whole big international incident over the whole affair, and the folks accused of being responsible were deported (to the North or South, I'm not sure).

I believe the incident was major enough for the small neighborhood here, that I included it in the entry. However, I'm blanking out on crucial details - the exact year of the raid, who was named, what exactly was found, etc. If anyone can help with this, or knows someone who can, please contact me through my talk page. Any help would be greatly appreciated. --Daniel 22:16, September 4, 2005 (UTC)