Wikipedia:Irish wikipedians' notice board/Archive10

Duplicates?
Knock Shrine and Our Lady of Knock are imo duplicates --ClemMcGann 11:35, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

wiki.politics.ie
Apologies if this is out of order, but I would like to draw the attention of Irish wikipedians to the nascent Irish politics wiki at wiki.politics.ie, and specifically to a major NPOV dispute currently raging there.

I would appreciate any Irish wikipedian's views on this dispute, either here or on my talk page. If you've contributed to wiki.politics.ie, please feel free to jump into the debate there, but I don't think it would be helpful if people were to register simply to join the debate. --Ryano 13:12, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

county crests
I'd added a list of countys that dont have county crests on their county page. There is also County Dublin and County Tipperary that doesnt have a county crest, but sub-county ones. Is there one for these guys? Like what the GAA use for the county?Ablaze 20:01, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Here's a wee thought - how about not indulging in tedious wikitrollery by adding county crests to pages for Northern Irish counties that imply they're part of Eire? /rollseyes/ One would have thought that a basic tenet of this wikigroup is that members should avoid political bias PoV re: Northern Ireland (or is this instead what the group is for? ;-)--feline1 10:36, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Éire is the Irish language word for Ireland, but I think you mean Republic of Ireland? Notwithstanding, the crests are being added on the basis of GAA membership which is as valid as any basis for adding crests as their is no political crests such as those for county councils? Ultimately we are taking about Northern Ireland so pov is defacto anyway. Djegan 18:46, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The county crests don't have any political status in or connection with the Republic of Ireland and thus don't carry any implication that the counties are "part of Éire". --Ryano 21:11, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Ah /sighs/ it seems this *is* a bit of a PoV trolling group then... I mean come on, be serious - "Eire" most commonly gets taken to be synonymous with "Republic of Ireland" - so putting a coat of arms with "Eire" on a Northern Irish county's page is immediately dubious. And you tell me these are just from sports clubs?! The pages do not clarify this - they present it as if it was a formal coat of arms for the county. --feline1 21:58, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I hadn't seen the dispute over the Down crest when making the comment above. Certainly we should not use a crest as the county's crest if it is only used by the GAA team, unless this status is made clear.  The fact that the Down crest in question contained the GAA's symbol (and thus the word 'Éire') indicates that it is GAA-specific.  If we want to include the GAA crest for each county I have no problem with that, but this should be made explicit. --Ryano 10:26, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Someone has found the proper coat of arms for County Down now (seems to consist of tudor roses, a ship, a fish, and some bundles of wheat...) so that should get added to the page. Why on earth anyone would want to put some football team's logo on there as if it was the coat of arms is beyond me. Should we go to the Republic of Ireland page and replace the tricolour with the Dublin Tiddlywinks' Society's mascot instead?


 * While agreeing with you that GAA crests should not be presented as county crests, I don't think that's really a fair comparison. One of the primary contemporary uses for the county system is found in the GAA, so I don't think it's fair to characterise these crests as just "some football team's logo".  It's not the same as putting the Manchester United logo on the Manchester page. --Ryano 12:19, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * A better comparison would be to use English county cricket mascots - but no, it's probably *worse* than that, because Man United or cricket teams don't have any sectarian PoV connotations...! --feline1 12:36, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The crest on Cork GAA is not the one on County Cork; equally, the crest on Down GAA should not be on County Down. The wrong thing is always worse than nothing.  Joestynes 17:08, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * That County Cork crest is the one that I created for the City of Cork, this well researched website would appear to differ as well as the county council website. Again it has to be reminded that the city and county may share a name but that is all, they are distinct. In Northern Ireland it will be even more difficult as the counties have had no administrative status since 1973, (and thus their is no "official" arms) although they (the counties) are retained for lord-lieutenancy purposes. Djegan 19:33, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Why would their lack of formal post-1973 administrative status have anything whatsoever to do with it? Coats of arms and heraldry date back centuries!--feline1 19:48, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * My point is that whatever arms we use, in the case of Northern Ireland, they are still going to be traditional and not official, as the counties do not exist in their own right as legal entities. Djegan 20:06, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Well why do you worry about that? The whole ARTICLE is about something which "no longer officially exists as a legal entity"?

County Infobox


I created a infobox template for the counties. Basically i took what was their already, changed the appareance slightly, and added some things. I have it set so that it can be used on all counties, including those in NI. Figure i run it by the group to see what thought their were out their, aslo if anyone is having any problems with the rendering or the displaying of the box, let me know, i'll look into it. Two examples, ROI and NI, are on the left, coding is below, if their is no problesm or major concerns with this, i'll start rolling it out. --Boothy443 | comhrá 22:21, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Good work, suggest that we use this pdf list for any Irish language terms for counties - the document has legal standing for irish names of counties in the republic and might serve as a good basis for standardisation and confirmity as irish placenames are legendary for spelling variation. Djegan 22:38, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks, as for the name standars, i agrss, espicaly since it has an official backing, i noticed that the list only applies to Provinces and counties, is their a list that have information on cities, towns, and villages. I know for some that i have come across that did not have the Irish name, i havbe been using an OSI map that i have that has names in Irish on it as well. --Boothy443 | comhrá 23:27, 27 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Their is this page which should eventually be filled out with all placenames in the republic on a per-county basis - giving the legally recognised Irish spelling. But this will be a long term project and could take ten years - until then we will have to live with spelling variations - good or bad. Djegan 19:02, 28 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Well i suppose something is better then nothing, at least they are trying to standardise the names, and it's going thrw an official source. --Boothy443 | comhrá 20:23, 28 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Well being that their have been no major concerns or problems with the template, i plan to roll the new ones out with the names matching the information in the link above over the weekened, i'll keep the please add you reponce idea active, so if during the roll out any problems arise they can be addressed. Also looking at a couple of other things, saw some other possible use templates, ie President of Ireland, and such, as a roll them out i'll drop a note.--Boothy443 | comhrá 03:18, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

RE: Revert on titles of Dublin counties as per this topic. The 2003 Placenames Order, which apparently makes a distinction between historical and administrative counties, was solely implemented for proper use of the Irish form of these placenames and cannot be construed as affecting the status or English language title of any Local Government area. The S.I. shows how to use the titles of all counties both by themselves and with “County” in front of them. If for some counties the Dept. of RCGA did not venture far enough to include the prefix “County”, that does not mean that the S.I. has magically re-named the county – that would be illegal under all set Local Government legislation. Similarly, the S.I. listing "County Dublin" does not override the legislation that abolished the county - in a legal context the S.I. is essentially an Irish phrasebook. The titles of the Dublin counties are established in the preamble of the 1993 Local Government Act: “An Act to provide for {…} three Administrative Counties to be known as the County of South Dublin, the County of Fingal and the County of Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown.” Since the S.I. (in November 2004) Domhnaill MacGiollaeaspaig, the Chief Placenames Officer with the Department of RCGA was formally asked to give the Irish versions of the above titles to the Ordnance Survey, to which he duly did, noting the shortfalls of the 2003 S.I. They are the legal titles as per the Act and now national mapping, it is wholly inappropriate to change them.

For all its worth the 2003 Placenames Order erroneously included “Baile” in “Atha Cliath Theas” for South Dublin against the prescribed legal title. Did the County Council run out to change all their signposts and stationary?.... The 2003 Placenames Order is a curiosity for anyone interested in the Irish language, nothing more. To argue against that you would have to be prepared to somehow qualify the legal status of the Provinces…

LocGov 13:38, 08 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Your quite right this SI has no legal effect on the English title (in fact it spells Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown incorrectly). The only problem with "County of..." (which is the legally prescribed form) is 1) it is a clumsyly long form especially for Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown 2) their is no corressponding Irish term as yet for the three counties in Dublin 3) wikipedia takes the policy for the most common form, which will not always be legal. What I will do is mention the legal term in each articles text body as a trade off until final resolution. Djegan 17:45, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Well it seems to be the misterpertation and corpution of law and statutes seems to be the order of the day. Congrad in mucking things up. --Boothy443 | comhrá 19:54, 8 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Much as I'm sure I'd love to take credit for the contradictory laws and statutes, I can't. I agree with Djegan that the current form is a compromise, but it is by far the most accurate one. Feel free to direct any queries about the length of Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown's title at their County Council, they only love to talk about that. The Irish titles that the Dept RCGA provided to the OSI incorporated the "of" in them i.e. "County of Fingal" translates to Contae Fhine Gall, the extra "h" acts as an "of" because of the tuiseal ginideach. Essentially all Irish county titles read literally as "County of..". LocGov 16:40, 09 October 2005 (UTC)

Naming conventions (use English) survey
The following may be of interest to Irish wikipedians: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English). It's a survey that started six months ago, but apparently some people are still voting. -- Curps 18:46, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Irish Labour Party
This article, about what's to be fair a pretty significant topic, is a terrible mess and badly needs a rewrite using decent sources. Unfortunately I'm not really in a position to do so at the moment myself, but if anyone's got some time on their hands... Palmiro | Talk 12:01, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Irishwiki template
Why has this been added to my userpage without me being asked first? Filiocht | The kettle's on 07:19, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Leader
I say we should have a vote on one memeber to update this noticeboard regulary adn to keep it clean. This person must be on the Irish Wikipedians list. If you would like to be a candidate for Noticeboard upkeeper please reply to this message. Wikipedian231 17:07, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose I can see where your coming from Wiki231, but by naming one individual to do the work, it would discourage others from helping out, the wiki thrives on spontanous bursts of enthusiasim by different members. If a few individuals want to make it a personal aim to ensure things are kept neat, fine... but not a public 'leader' please. CGorman 17:31, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose as well. The concept of a 'leader' is antithetical to the spirit of Wikipedia. RMoloney 17:56, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Radio Telefís Éireann
I was wondering if someone who has a greater knowledge on the subject might want to take a gander at the rater sigificant changes that the annaon 83.70.239.155 made to the artiles. Some things wer moved, some were changed, some were deleted, and some new information looks as if it was added, but the extent of it is difficult to tell. BTW thw same annon that made the edits summialy blanked the talk page, which has since been reverted back to its previous form. Thanks. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 05:43, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Thelovefest
Can anyone verfiy the factual accuracy of this article: Thelovefest. Meant to be "an outdoor music festival in Co. mayo". Google didn't reveal anything, but maybe someone near the source can help.--Commander Keane 04:35, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I added an external link to that page, which seems to have most of the info you'll need. The page might need to be moved though - the festival seems to be called "Lovefest" not "Thelovefest" - I've written to a contact on the site forum for confirmation. Cormaggio @ 16:08, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Cheers. Much appreciated.--Commander Keane 16:43, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks, too -- Perfecto [[Image:Flag_of_Canada.svg|25px|Canada]] 17:00, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Irish Minister for.../Minister for...(Ireland)
Currently all articles for government ministers are in the style "Irish Minister for...", I wish to rename these to the style "Minister for...(Ireland)", thus for instance "Irish Minister for Finance" would become "Minister for Finance (Ireland)".

Whilst this proposed style does not reflect the title during the Irish Republic and the Irish Free State eras, nor does the current style which is inferior to say the least. The proposed style is more clear and relects, better, the official title of ministers today. Thus for instance Irish passports cite the title the "Minister for Foreign Affairs of Ireland", using of course the states official name, in English.

Any comments, or dissent? Djegan 19:09, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


 * What is the common style for other countries? Canada, Australia, etc? Seabhcán 19:42, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Two quick examples (direct links):
 * Minister for Foreign Affairs (Australia)
 * Minister of Finance (Canada)
 * Djegan 19:52, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Support - Go for it!  &#08492; astique &#09660; talk 21:22, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Support FearÉIREANN[[Image:Map of Ireland's capitals.png|15px]]\(caint) 21:14, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Support, good idea. Palmiro | Talk 21:46, 11 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Done, and all active double redirects eliminated so that they have no more than one redirect. Djegan 23:18, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Irish Wikipedians template
What happened to the Irish Wikipedians template? Its gone all yucky!!! FearÉIREANN\(caint) 04:47, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Whatever about yucky, it certainly hurts my eyes. Palmiro | Talk 17:22, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Forgive me!!! I have access to a tft monitor most of the time only so what looks good on this can look bizzard on a crt at the best of times (I often cross check images because of this) If its that bad revert it, lime green does seam to be a bad colour after all. Djegan 18:45, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * How about this NASA Satellite image, its clean, simple, uncluttered and shows physical features. Their should be no issues regarding legality as long as the source is sited. Djegan 18:53, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I have uploaded a new image, it may take some time to work thru' the system! Djegan 21:25, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Craic origins?
Can anyone shed some light on the roots of the word craic? There's some differences in opinion, it seems.... My Irish isn't nearly good enough to know, and I can't seem to find any definitive sources. Anyone who's got a copy of the OED or a good Irish dictionary who'd be willing to tell me what they find there I'd be most grateful towards. Blackcap | talk 07:32, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Its not Irish! Its a 16th century english word that fell out of use in England. Interestingly, an Irish friend of mine who lives in Dresden says that there is a german word with nearly the same meaning and usage. Seabhcán 09:02, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Great! Exactly what I wanted to know... Do you have a source for that, or know the original English word? Do you know the German word? Blackcap | talk 16:54, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Ah, I've fixed the article to reflect this. This is one piece of pseudo-Irish that really annoys me. Palmiro | Talk 01:41, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Nice edit. I've changed "crack" back to "craic," as that's the more common usage, it seems, not to mention the name of the article. If we're going to call it "crack" in an article about "craic," then we should probably move the article to something such as Crack (Ireland). If it is more correctly "crack," then we should have a source on that, and change the article title. Blackcap | talk 02:04, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Here's one ref - BBC and here's one for the German word gaeltacht.info. That site suggests that the german word 'Krach' means a 'Crash' or 'noise', closer to the modern english word 'crack'. However, my friend in Dresden says it is also used to describe a good night out. Seabhcán 09:13, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
 * So what should we make of this? Filiocht | The kettle's on 09:31, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Just that it's been successfully imported into Irish :) --Ryano 10:41, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
 * And is therefore no more a "piece of pseudo-Irish" than hundreds of orhter loan words are. It is now a fully assimilated Irish word. That's language for you. Filiocht | The kettle's on 08:12, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I think when it appears in English in the new Irish spelling pretending to be a word of Irish origins, then the term "pseudo-Irish" is justified.Palmiro | Talk 14:44, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Moving back over to the left... I don't know. I'd say that that's part of what happens when a word comes into another language: it changes into the form that it would take in that language. The change from "crack" to "craic" is natural. If the reason behind that is to masquerade as an Irish-origin word, then that's slightly different, however, this change seems to be what one would expect. Blackcap (talk) 14:53, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, the change from crack to craic in Irish is natural, but the change from the English "crack" to the gaelicised form "craic" in English usage in Ireland is a very unusual thing, and seems to coincide with a belief that the word expresses something intangibly peculiar to Irish culture (and maybe it does, but the use of an Irish spelling in English suggests that the word is of Irish origin, and lots of people now seem to believe that and it reinforces the belief that the concept is one peculiar to Ireland, despite the word apparently being in fact of English origin). Not sure, any more, if I am even making sense! Palmiro | Talk 15:35, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * No, I see what you mean: it's usual to have a word change when it's incorporated into another language, but highly unusual to have a word change in the parent language when the word is borrowed. Blackcap (talk) 16:21, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

AFD: Nuala caffrey
Article claims she's a Celtic princess. Can someone help verify this and share their findings at the AFD discussion? - Mgm|(talk) 11:15, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * "Nuala Caffrey" is a modern name and there is zero chance that she was a celtic princess. The IP used to creat the article has been blocked before for hoaxes. I have deleted the article. Seabhcán 12:33, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I think the IP address represents all anonymous users connecting from TCD. --Ryano 12:44, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * And we have had -serious- vandalism and hoax problems from Trinners. --Kiand 13:25, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Spent a recent weekend at a symposium in the Arts building. An ugly heap, it has to be said. Those concrete walls would drive anyone to vandalism. Plus, the traffic and rolling drunks on the streets reminded me of why it is I don't live in Dublin any more. Wexford St. at 11:00 Saturday evening is a scene from Dante's Inferno. Filiocht | The kettle's on 14:06, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * You clearly didn't see the suburbs, if you believe the Liffey Champion, Celbridge is at a danger of becoming an inferno ;) --Kiand 15:00, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Categorisation of Cork
Seems to be quite a mess: Category:Cork is super-categorised as a city and as a county, and while the category page is about the city, it contains lots of articles about the county, especially in its sub-categories. And talking of which Category:Towns in Cork contains many non-towns. I assume what's needed here is a Category:County Cork, a Category:Villages in Cork, and much re-sorting. Unless anyone has a different scheme in mind... Alai 06:10, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd suggest a split into (at least) Category:County Cork and Category:Cork City. Category:Cork could be the master cat, with those two (and others) as sub-cats. I think that your idea of having a Category:Villages in Cork cat is a good one; I'd add it in as another sub-cat. Blackcap (talk) 06:31, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I think it is better not to create a specific category for the city of Cork as this would place it as loggerheads to other Irish cities categories - Category:Cork should be reserved for the city as it uses the common name, Cork. I am all for a category Category:County Cork, if we must have a category for the city then it would have to be Category:City of Cork. Rationalisation of categories is a good principal and new categories should only be created when a category becomes unmanageable, i.e. a category gets dominated by items that in themselves require a subcategory. Djegan 19:35, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * That sounds reasonable. Blackcap (talk) 19:44, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Constituency size in Ireland
The article Parliamentary constituencies in the Republic of Ireland says that there is "one TD for every 23,598 people". This seems very precise! I assume it is an average. Are there some places in Ireland more represented than others? (I just did the figures for European Parliament constituency, which are actually quite interesting: representation varies from 71,000 to 943,000 people per seat) Seabhcán 16:13, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Your quite right, the state would have to take part in forced migration to make it that exact. Article 16.2 gives detailed provisions on the number of representatives but basically has to be between one for every 20,000 to 30,000 people. Their must be at least three representatives per constituency. Generally rural constituencies are "better represented" that urban (ie more representatives per person), this is partially due to the three seat rule. Djegan 19:26, 18 November 2005 (UTC)