Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 September 13

= September 13 =

Translation help
An IP left me a message on my talk page in Swedish, I think. Can someone who can understand translate and handle the IP's request, if possible? Thanks,  bibliomaniac 1  5  01:25, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks to freetranslation.com, he's asking if you can provide a link to the Swedish Wikipedia.  Grsz 11  01:32, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * "Hi Bibliomanic15 [sic]. Can you help me? Is there a Swedish Wikipedia. Could you give me a link to it if it exists? I can't find it. Thanks."  (talk) 06:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Diacritics
I would like to know where the diacritic marks go in the following Russian names so that I can add them to the respective articles: Кронрод (Alexander Kronrod), Болтянский (Vladimir Boltyansky), Вершик Anatoly Vershik), Гуков (Sergei Gukov), Суслин (Andrei Suslin); I guess the answer will be: Кро́нрод, Болтя́нский, Ве́ршик, Гу́ков, Су́слин. Could anyone also confirm that the diacritics I have added to the following two articles are correct: По́ппе & Ми́лин ? Thanks. --Omnipaedista (talk) 04:34, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Did you check the corresponding articles at Russian Wikipedia? It usually gives stress marks. —Angr (talk) 06:03, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I had already searched not only at Russian Wikipedia but also at many other online Russian databases and encyclopedias (www.psevdonim.ru, www.megabook.ru/, www.mathnet.ru/, encycl.mail.ru/) before I posted here, but found nothing. Some of the databases give stress marks but do not have the names I am looking for. Others had the names for but did not give stress marks. I guess only a native russophone that has actually heard them pronounced could really help. As I said, I would like to add diacritics to the wiki-articles, but I should be completely certain about them before I edit. --Omnipaedista (talk) 07:47, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * See sl:Aleksander Semjonovič Kronrod. It says Кронрод is stressed on the first syllable: Кро́нрод. About Болтя́нский, Ве́ршик, Гу́ков, Су́слин, Ми́лин - I'm reasonably sure they're correct, because -ский, -ин, -ов, -ик are certain adjectival and diminutive affixes that usually cannot carry the stress. Поппе looks very much like a Russian transcription of a German name (double letters are not found in native Russian words), hence По́ппе. By the way, why do we insert diacritics to Russian texts on Wikipedia? Readers might assume they are obligatory in Russian writing, but they're actually only displayed in books intended for foreign learners or small children to help them pronounce the word, and even there they might be omitted in obvious cases. --Theurgist (talk) 08:07, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Grammatical gender in English as to states
With respect to grammatical gender in English, especially in formal or ceremonial English, sometimes states have gender.

For instances, in the International Court of Justice's Case Concerning the Preah Vihear Temple (Cambodia v Thailand), "...Thailand is under an obligation to withdraw any military or police forces or other guards or keepers stationed by her at the Temple..."

Because in general English, states are referred to by "it," "its," etc; so, how could we know the gender of a state in English?

203.131.212.121 (talk) 05:45, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The Homeland article says: "When used as a proper noun, the word, as well as its cognates in other languages (i.e. Heimatland in German) often have ethnic nationalist connotations: Fatherland, Motherland, Mother country, each having some distinct interpretation according to nationality or historical usage." Which suggests that each nation/state/country has gender (or not) determined by its cultural view of itself.  Wiki Dao   (talk)  06:01, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I've never heard of a country referred to as "him" though. Wiki Dao   (talk)  06:04, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Right. In English any nation can be referred to as "it" or "her", whichever the writer prefers.  Native English speakers never refer to a nation as "him", regardless of culture. Looie496 (talk) 06:07, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * As for the USA whose nickname is "Uncle Same," so, will the USA be referred to as "him"?
 * 203.131.212.121 (talk) 06:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * That's "Uncle Sam", but more to the point, the USA would never be referred to as "him" except in a sentence like "Uncle Sam wants you to help him", where the meaning is indirect. Looie496 (talk) 06:33, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * America is a "she".  Wiki Dao   (talk)  06:43, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * But Uncle Sam is not (unless he's one of those "special uncles"). You could mix them up if you were so minded: "Uncle Sam wants you to help him; your country will be grateful for any help you can give her".  --  202.142.129.66 (talk) 06:46, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the U.S. is Uncle Sam, too, I guess. You'd still never see the U.S. referred to as "him" -- either as "it" or else ("poetically") as "she".  Here are some more National personifications, btw.   Wiki Dao   (talk)  06:56, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Presumably in the USA's case the "she" can be taken as a reference to Columbia. 87.82.229.195 (talk) 13:38, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's a reference to anything in particular, it's just something we do out of habit (grammatical gender usually is). As people have said multiple times already, the US is not unique in being referred to as "she", so it's highly unlikely that it's a reference to anything special. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 13:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * States, like ships, are female. The ship of state would be some kind of bloomin' 'ermaphrodite if it were otherwise. DuncanHill (talk) 11:44, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Other vehicles as well, if the speaker feels a particular closeness or pride in them, can be referred to as "she". I can't think of any case where an inanimate object would be referred to as "he", apart from when it is actually made to look like a man (a statue, or robot). --ColinFine (talk) 21:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * See also the following archived discussions.
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 February 12
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 February 2
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 May 22
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 January 13
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 January 23
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 September 22
 * —Wavelength (talk) 00:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

1st place ‘from’ 2nd place, 'from' 3rd
Can anyone flesh out this phrase, last heard in Sunday’s F-1 race? "Alonso from Button from Massa". . . meaning, Alonso 1st, Button 2nd and Massa 3rd. If it helps, the way the announcer uses it, there is a lot of stress on each "from." DOR (HK) (talk) 07:56, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Another way of putting it is "Alonso is in front of Button, who in turn is in front of Massa...". The word "from" is a neat way of saying "in front of". --TammyMoet (talk) 10:10, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Interesting. May I ask where you're from? My experience has been that British English speakers say this, but not people from other English-speaking countries. DOR (HK) (talk) 10:16, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It is a contraction of "has the lead from" - as in "Rainey has the lead from Alex Barros, Schwantz and Mick Doohan" (1993 British motorcycle Grand Prix). I don't know if this construction is only found in British English. Gandalf61 (talk) 10:37, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * DOR I'm British. Another statement it could be is "is leading from" (I only thought of that one after I'd gone away from the computer!). --TammyMoet (talk) 13:20, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Many thanks to all. I'm going to put this one down as "probably British usage." DOR (HK) (talk) 10:02, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps "racing usage." I commonly hear that form of phrase at the end of the calls of horse races.  Perhaps someone with the OED handy could confirm that use of "from."  Zoonoses (talk) 13:41, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Is this a word?
Is static-y (see ) a perfectly cromulent word? If not, what would be the proper word to use instead? -- 78.43.71.155 (talk) 10:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * It is, in so far as it replaces the more technical but longer and distinctly less favourable electrostatically charged. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:00, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * FWIW, I would spell it staticky, as here: . Marnanel (talk) 11:59, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * According to SOED: staticky adjective (US colloq.) subject to or affected by static; resembling static: M20. staticness noun M20. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:51, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Wiktionary has staticky but not staticy. Lexicografía (talk) 13:12, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The list of words at Words Ending In cky : Words Ending With cky includes colicky, frolicky, garlicky, hystericky, panicky, phthisicky, physicky, picnicky, pilgarlicky, plasticky, rheumaticky, rollicky, staticky, talcky and zincky. They all appear to be adjectives formed by adding ky to words ending in c.  For definitions, you can try OneLook Dictionary Search.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 15:04, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "Phthisicky"? Yikes. Matt Deres (talk) 15:25, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * There's a general English rule that if a noun ends in "c", to add a suffix that starts with a vowel, you add a "k" too. Picnic -> picnicking, garlic -> garlicky, bivouac -> bivouacked, static -> staticky. Although "arc" seems to be an oddball, with 'arced' and 'arcing'. Lexicografía (talk) 15:55, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I found [four dictionaries with] Definitions of arcked - OneLook Dictionary Search and [four dictionaries with] Definitions of arcking - OneLook Dictionary Search. Also, I found [six dictionaries with] Definitions of Quebecker - OneLook Dictionary Search.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 16:15, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * [I am revising my message by inserting "dictionaries with" in three places.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 16:33, 13 September 2010 (UTC)]


 * Then I suppose Merriam-Webster neds an update. Lexicografía (talk) 16:37, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * This is probably to prevent the c becoming soft, as in plasticize. I'm not sure why we don't apply this rule to arc. Perhaps we just couldn't be arced. 213.122.69.236 (talk) 20:00, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Indeed it is. Sorry for not making that clear. Lexicografía (talk) 20:03, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The fact that someone thinks "hystericky" is a word is hysterical. And also kind of appalling. ☯.Zen  Swashbuckler  .☠  16:58, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * It is a word, and I'd suppose it'd be fairly useful when someone wanted to use a hysteric-related adjective without making the reader think that something was incredibly funny. Lexicografía (talk) 17:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Forgive my imprecise phrasing or dickish bombast - I acknowledge that it is a word (even a word that people use, though I've never read it until now, nor heard it spoken). I am simply unable to come up with a context in which I'd use it instead of hysterical or in hysterics.  When you say of someone "Boy, he's really starting to become hysterical," I think it's clear you don't mean his comic delivery is rapidly improving.  ☯.Zen  Swashbuckler  .☠  19:05, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I suppose it all depends on context. . . Lexicografía (talk) 19:06, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I could hazard a couple of suggestions for why "arc" doesn't take a "k": 1. because it ends "rc", and I cannot think if a single English word containing the (rather Dutch looking) "rck"; 2. it is one of very few English words that end in "c" but not "ic". On the other hand, the same comments (mutatis mutandis) would apply to "talc" and "zinc" which are in the list above. But actually I think that if I wanted to write the words, I would write "talced" and "zinced" rather than "talcked" and "zincked". --ColinFine (talk) 21:48, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * "zinced" makes me wince. 213.122.29.136 (talk) 22:38, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought it was "zought". L ANTZY T ALK 05:03, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Seduce
I need a word which means "to seduce by looking at". Not bedroom eyes —Preceding unsigned comment added by Espratiro (talk • contribs) 15:26, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Fascinate? Mesmerize? Put the glamour on? 81.131.28.196 (talk) 16:03, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Leer? Ogle? Make eyes at? Mitch Ames (talk) 12:39, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I think in Romance novels they usually use 'entice', but that's second hand info - I've never actually read one. -- Ludwigs 2 19:54, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Limited number of words
I remember reading about a language which was created which had only 1000 words or something small like that. Does anyone know what this language was? Would a 1000 word language be usable? Are there any naturally occurring languages with very few words? AwesomeRSS (talk • contribs) 15:40, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you perhaps thinking of Basic English? AndrewWTaylor (talk) 16:03, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Or it's sinister offspring Newspeak? Some non-verbal languages for people with communication difficulties such as Makaton or Blissymbols can get along with a very small vocabulary. Apparently the core vocubalary of Makaton has 450 signs, but there are 7,000 in all. I once met a youngster with Cerebral palsy who could only communicate by pointing at a grid of about 30 Blissymbols. Alansplodge (talk) 17:01, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Me again. A quick Google shows that the Na'vi language has about 1,000 words. Alansplodge (talk) 17:18, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * In comparison, the Oxford English Dictionary has about 600,000 definitions and most sources consider the actual number of English words to be higher; although on a day-to-day basis, only about 3000-5000 of those words are frequently used. Lexicografía (talk) 17:23, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The original vocabulary of Esperanto had only 900 root words (although these could be expanded with various prefixes and suffixes).
 * As for whether there are natural languages with few words, it depends on what you consider a "word", since counting the size of a vocabulary is complicated by issues like compound words, morphologically-related words (e.g. "brave", "braver", "bravest", "bravely", etc.) and some languages (like Esperanto) might have few "words" but many affixes for modifying them. My intuition is that the languages of technologically primitive societies who have little contact with the outside world (such as Sentinelese) probably have relatively small vocabularies, compared to English (which has one of the largest vocabularies, due in part to rampant borrowing from other languages). r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 17:38, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

There was until recently at least one language that was arguably less unnatural than one invented for a movie and that is said -- by a respected linguist, not merely a language pundit -- to have made do with a remarkably small number of words for describing a full range of subjects. The language was Damin and the linguist was Ken Hale. The constricted vocabulary, etc, are briefly described on pp 201-202 of Nicholas Evans' book Dying Words. -- Hoary (talk) 10:12, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Recently I read an essay on knowledge and education by Betrand Russell (1872–1970), who wrote: "In America, for example, educational commissions point out that fifteen hundred words are all that most people employ in business correspondence, and therefore suggest that all others should be avoided in the school curriculum." The essay is several decades old, but it still illustrates that a language of the size the OP describes could be functional. — Anonymous Dissident  Talk 11:04, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Wittgenstein only needed four ;) r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 12:13, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh really? If I in the asbestos-removal business and you in the wine importing business and two others in, respectively, the renting-out-studs-to-mares business and the toner-cartridge-refilling business were each to use 1500 words in our correspondences -- a set of sets whose union would be rather over 1500 -- and also happen each to have a flat in the same block, then when the flat became dowdy how would we discuss its redecoration? For that matter, when we became hungry, how would we discuss where and what to eat? (Is it possible that Bertie was pointing out the crassness of American educational commissions?) -- Hoary (talk) 12:34, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll defer to your expertise. Are you suggesting that 1500 is an unrealistic minimum, or that I'm misinterpreting Russell's remark? — Anonymous Dissident  Talk 12:42, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * For the record, yes, the excerpt was taken from a lamentation on the state of Western education. And nevermind, I see your point. Words used in business discourse do not a language make. — Anonymous Dissident  Talk 12:47, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's assume that any given person needs 1500 words to do business in English. (I have my doubts, but for the next few minutes I'll smother them.) First point: These sets will be very dissimilar, so the set of all of them will be a lot bigger than 1500. I was going to bring up a second point, but come to think of it, may well be rendered superfluous by the first. -- Hoary (talk) 14:57, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Chinese girls named Fenny
Why is Fenny mainly an anglicized Chinese girls' name? Where did the name come from and how did it come to be mainly used by the Chinese? What is the Chinese name (romanized please) that is commonly anglicized to Fenny? The Hero of This Nation (talk) 19:27, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know the answer to any of these questions, but I will just point out that it's not uncommon for Chinese people to adopt English names that are, while not necessarily "wrong", a little bit...off. As in, names that aren't really commonly used. These range from names of classical Greek heroes (Hercules, Athena) to names that exist but don't seem to be very common these days, at least not where I'm from (Freya, Vicki, Wilber, Gigi, Eason) to stripper names (Kitty, Candy) to non-names taken from fruits, animals, or other things (Apple, Fish, Harlem). Sometimes there is some phonetic relationship between their Chinese name and the English one they adopt (for instance, Will/Wilber Pan's given name in Chinese is Weibo, and Eason Chan's is Yixun in Mandarin), and sometimes there's not (Kitty Zhang's is Yuqi, Vicki Zhao's is Wei, Gigi Leung's is Yongqi in Mandarin). And then there are just people who, left to their own devices, make up any old name (I once had a student who named himself "Double Billion" because he wanted to become a billionaire...I didn't have the heart to tell him that that was weird, and that "double billion" is not a number). Who knows... r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 22:11, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you, that is very interesting. I would still like to know about the name Fenny/Fennie, if anyone knows anything about it. The Hero of This Nation (talk) 13:00, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * My theory would be that it is a mispronunciation of the more usual (yet archaic) English name 'Fanny'. Mandarin Chinese speakers tend to have difficulty hearing/reproducing the sound /æ/ (not present in Mandarin), and it is often realised as /ɛ/ or even /e/ (neither of which are present in Mandarin - except /e/ in diphthongs). Spelling it more like how they 'hear' it would also stop people from pronouncing it as 'Funny', which would be embarrassing. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  13:44, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * That is definitely a possibility. (I can attest to the /æ/-/ɛ/ difficult as well; a pregnant Chinese friend of mine told me she was naming the baby Madison, and I thought she said Medicine, which seemed like a strange name for a baby girl.) The only other thing "Fenny" brings to mind for me is Fenchurch... r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 14:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * You mean Medicine would be a good name for a boy? :)   The other thing I wonder about is this: Chinese people are stereotypically reputed for their inability/indifference to end plurals with the requisite -s ("three dollar" etc.).  So, if they name a child James or Charles, do they call them "Jame" or "Charl"?  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   19:48, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * No, why should they? Chinese doesn't share the obsession that European languages with whether you are talking about one or many, so there is nothing in Chinese corresponding to a plural ending. (There are ways of explicitly saying one or many if you need to, but that is different). "James" or "Charles" they would learn as words (though I think many speakers would have difficulty with the final clusters). --ColinFine (talk) 23:58, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Fenny is a nickname for a name used in Victorian Britain, where they would name girls after plants and herbs - it's short for Fenugreek. Not as common as Rose, Violet, or even Aster, but it was used, and would probably be listed in older dictionaries of English names, and may have been picked up in China given the British influences there.  -- Ludwigs 2  19:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It's mostly Hong Kong Chinese who have English names, so the British influence idea makes sense. Rimush (talk) 09:45, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Not true. Almost everybody who does English at primary school/junior high/high school/university has English names, whether they are in mainland China, Taiwan, HK, or wherever. They are either given them by their teacher (who may be a native English speaker or not) or they choose their own. In any case, most people get them, and then use them as much as possible. I taught at a university in China, and I had to give my students names. There were a lot of them, and it was very difficult coming up with unique names for each person - nobody wanted to be given the same name as anyone else. Luckily, English has a lot of variations in the spellings of names (Catherine/Kathryn/Cathryne, etc.), so this made things easier (and fun at times). Then you have huaqiao living abroad. They tend to give their children both English and Chinese names, and, contrary to what you may think, they do not always follow the naming conventions of the local populations: I knew a girl born in the UK whose parents were from mainland China, and her name was Apple (I'm hoping she doesn't marry a Scot called McKintosh). I also briefly met a girl from mainland China whose name was Pizza - though my contact with her didn't last long enough for me to ask her why. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  13:27, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Apple was in imitation of Gwyneth Paltrow's daughter, I would assume... AnonMoos (talk) 14:11, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Apple seems to be one of the more common silly names; I've met several Chinese(/Taiwanese/Singaporean) girls named "Apple". They tend to not like it when I call them 苹果... r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 14:20, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * with any luck, Pizza has a sister named Beer. -- Ludwigs 2 14:21, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, I really would like to tell you her family name, because in conjunction with Pizza it was just ridiculous - but I can't. Not on a searchable googlable page on the internet. It's not nice. And don't try and guess. Please. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  16:58, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Myhart? Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:07, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Pai? Rimush (talk) 17:16, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Neither. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  19:20, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I meant that HK Chinese use their names officially, see for example Donald Tsang and such. This is also common in Taiwan and Singapore, apparently. But you're the expert. And anyway, I once met (and liked, but she didn't wanna go out) a girl from Guangzhou who had an English name. Rimush (talk) 17:19, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * In Singapore it's common for the official name to be something like Annie Zhou Wan Yi, whereas here in New Zealand it's notated as Wanyi (Annie) Zhou, although it's not standard. On this general topic, I suppose lack of the subtle cultural awareness that is needed is what causes Chinese people to choose names that are either really frumpy or the other end of the scale. sonia ♫  04:20, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Fenny could be a contraction of Fenella, a Scottish/Celtic girl's name meaning "white shoulders". Gandalf61 (talk) 13:46, 15 September 2010 (UTC)