Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China/Archive 25

AfC submission - 19/05
Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Hu Xueyan. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 02:14, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi . I have done an initial edit on this and will take a further look tomorrow. Prima facie he appears notable but I'd like to find a couple more Chinese sources. Philg88 ♦talk 16:32, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Cleaned up and accepted. Philg88 ♦talk 09:50, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

AfC submission - 21/05
Draft:Great Golden Peninsula. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 15:13, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Per my comment on the draft, I have never seen this translated as "Great Golden Peninsula", it's Nanyang as far as I'm aware. I will do some more digging. Philg88 ♦talk 16:34, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments. Cheers, FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 17:29, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Declined with the suggestion that the content is merged with Nanyang (region). Creator notified. Philg88 ♦talk 09:13, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I guess since the content is already there at the AfC, we could probably already start to merge the contents there into the Nanyang article. Whatever is missing, we can just slowly fill up as we see fit. That Nanyang article could use a bit of an expansion (it seems a bit empty), and the AfC contents are considerably detailed. -- benlisquare T•C•E 09:39, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Indeed, there are also a lot of circular links in the draft that need to be sorted out. Are happy to take care of this one? Best,  Philg88 ♦talk 09:53, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm going to tidy it up a bit - overlinking is a bit of a problem ("Nanyang" and "Singapore" are linked dozens of times), but overall there should be no big problem. -- benlisquare T•C•E 09:54, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Another thing: Should Nanyang be moved to Nanyang (disambiguation)? Is it arguable that there is a primary topic for this title/name? -- benlisquare T•C•E 09:57, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Probably not. Nanyang, Henan is a prefecture-level city with 10 million people, historically highly significant too. -Zanhe (talk) 10:13, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Righto. -- benlisquare T•C•E 10:24, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

One thing I've noticed regarding the author of the draft: These letter-number usernames remind me of school projects; I've come across cases in the past where students were required to write articles on Wikipedia as part of their school course, and these users often had letter-number usernames. These users are often new users with redlink names and no other edits elsewhere at all, which really bears resemblance to what we're seeing right here. If this is so, then in the case where the educator cannot find the article, the student cannot be awarded marks. Would it probably be a good idea to write up some sort of explanation? -- benlisquare T•C•E 11:22, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Pinging, the creator of the draft article, so that (s)he is aware of this discussion and is welcome to comment. Philg88 ♦talk 15:31, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

British School of Beijing - Two schools or one?
I remember the British School of Beijing indicating two campuses, one in Shunyi and one in Sanlitun.

But now when I look at the websites, they give the idea that the two campuses are now separate schools:
 * http://www.nordangliaeducation.com/our-schools/beijing/shunyi/our-school states that the facilities are on a "single campus"
 * http://www.nordangliaeducation.com/our-schools/beijing/sanlitun/our-school/welcome shows two "campuses" of the Beijing school.

So is it true that they are now separate? Are there any news articles about a split? WhisperToMe (talk) 13:16, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Many Chinese schools have multiple campuses. The main (or founding one) is the topic of the article while the other campuses are dealt with in their own sections. Both of course, require notability before inclusion. Philg88 ♦talk 16:13, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll write about them as one campus. By the way if a school has a high school level component (education to age 18) in AFD it's presumed to be notable, but if there's no high school then significant coverage in reliable sources is necessary. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:45, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Ancient cities and towns visited by HT.
Hi All, I split an article into two clearer defined articles, one being Ancient cities and towns visited by Hsüan-tsang, there has now been a deletion tag placed on this article, as I have no real buy-in or knowledge of the significance or not, or any way to currently verify or reference this article, could someone with more Chinese history experience and knowledge add some input, I am fine with this article being deleted (or merged into an appropriate historic existing article) if it adds no real value, but it would be remiss of me not to bring it to the correct portal for review.

Than you The Original Filfi (talk) 03:17, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi . I'm afraid there is no way that article should be allowed to survive proposed deletion (PROD) as it is unreferenced and gives no context as to why this is any way notable. Adding more info or references (if they exist) isn't the way forward as it can be incorporated into the Xuanzang article without the danger of creating a content fork. If even if Ancient cities and towns visited by Hsüan-tsang survives PROD, it will be picked up for deletion discussion and indubitably zapped or merged. What I suggest that you do is add the list to the Xuanzang article if it doesn't already cover this topic. The PROD will run its course and all will be as it was before. A couple of other things to note:


 * When splitting an article you should use the split from and split to templates to maintain traceability of contribution history - see the template documentation pages for more info.
 * English Wikipedia uses pinyin, not Wade-Giles for China related articles - so it's Xuanzang, not Hsüan-tsang. See the Chinese style guide for more info.
 * I hope this helps. Cheers, Philg88 ♦talk 05:58, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Great work, thank you Philg88, I will also re-comment this to the articles talk page. The Original Filfi (talk) 06:31, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Requested articles on Japanese scholars on China
I found that on the Japanese Wikipedia there are some articles on Japanese scholars of China and/or literature: Is anyone interested in starting these? WhisperToMe (talk) 12:42, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Tatsuhiko Seo - ja:妹尾達彦 - Made comments about The Tale of Li Wa
 * Masaru Aoki - ja:青木正児 (currently "Masaru Aoki" redirects to Hajime no Ippo)
 * Issei Tanaka - ja:田仲一成 - zh:田仲一成
 * My guess is that these people would also be of interest at Wikiproject Japan. Philg88 ♦talk 09:53, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. I contacted them too about it WhisperToMe (talk) 10:28, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Somehow they are related to China. So I have added them to my creation list.  Occult Zone  ( Talk ) 12:45, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Seo wrote an analysis about The Tale of Li Wa. Aoki wrote a book on Chinese plays (See: The Peach Blossom Fan). Issei Tanaka wrote about Chinese drama (see Tale of the Pipa) WhisperToMe (talk) 10:25, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
 * ✅  Occult Zone  ( Talk ) 11:10, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much! WhisperToMe (talk) 11:58, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to OccultZone these three have been written! When finding the pages of the sources on Google Books I found a list of more Japanese scholars of China here: Also: Would anyone mind posting a transcription of the Japanese characters of these names? (they are on the book page) WhisperToMe (talk) 12:09, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Yoshimi Takeuchi (already has article)
 * Haruo Sato (may be Haruo Satō (novelist)) -- ja:佐藤春夫 (has articles in German and French, but nothing in English)
 * Wataro Kaji (typo for Wataru Kaji)
 * Takeo Oda 小田武夫??(not sure about this one)
 * Wataru Masuda
 * Shigeo Matsueda ja:松枝茂夫
 * Taijun Takeda (already has article)
 * Takeshiro Kuraishi ja:倉石武四郎
 * Shinobu Ono ja:小野忍 (currently points to soccer player Shinobu Ohno)
 * Tamaki Ogawa ja:小川環樹
 * Taro Hatano 波多野太郎

Wiki Loves Pride 2014
You are invited to participate in Wiki Loves Pride 2014, a campaign to create and improve LGBT-related content at Wikipedia and its sister projects. The campaign will take place throughout the month of June, culminating with a multinational edit-a-thon on June 21. Meetups are being held in some cities, or you can participate remotely. All constructive edits are welcome in order to contribute to Wikipedia's mission of providing quality, accurate information. Articles within Category:LGBT in Asia may be of particular interest. You can also upload LGBT-related images by participating in Wikimedia Commons' LGBT-related photo challenge. You are encouraged to share the results of your work here. Happy editing! -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 21:12, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

K-YBS500
FYI, there's a notice at WT:MILHIST about Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/K-YBS500 -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 06:09, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I've added one Chinese reference and there are others out there. I'm afraid I don't know enough about the topic to make further improvements. Philg88 ♦talk 08:14, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Sinology publication describing Chinese views of literature
In Hightower p. 313 I found out about: Six conferences sur la litterature chinoise, a series of lectures that had been delivered in 1926 in Paris. In 1937 Geuthner first published them. The author is Alexéiev.

Does anyone know more about these? They were describing the Chinese views of literature. WhisperToMe (talk) 16:17, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Request for chinese characters
Over at Brand blunder is a discussion of how Coca-Cola is written in Chinese, including some legend translations not actually used by the company. I'd appreciate if a Chinese speaker could put the Chinese versions of these phrases ("Bite the wax tadpole") into the article. Thanks, Ego White Tray (talk) 06:03, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi . You can copy and paste this into the article at the appropriate point: Here's a reference in Chinese too if you need one. Cheers,  Philg88 ♦talk 07:27, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

The article also mentions "female horse stuffed with wax" - how would that be written? Ego White Tray (talk) 02:38, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm... While the "bite the wax tadpole" story is probably true based on its appearance in Chinese sources, I'm not so sure about "female horse stuffed with wax". I found one Chinese website that mentioned "骒马口蠟" as a possible translation, which fits the English in a literal sense but would be pronounced "Kema Koula". I don't think that a Chinese speaker would ever make such a mistake with the "m" sound. In a nutshell, I think that beyond Coke's initial "wax tadpole" mistake, the rest of the alleged slogans are probably apocryphal. Best, Philg88 ♦talk 04:51, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Leaflet For Wikiproject China At Wikimania 2014
Hi all,

My name is Adi Khajuria and I am helping out with Wikimania 2014 in London.

One of our initiatives is to create leaflets to increase the discoverability of various wikimedia projects, and showcase the breadth of activity within wikimedia. Any kind of project can have a physical paper leaflet designed - for free - as a tool to help recruit new contributors. These leaflets will be printed at Wikimania 2014, and the designs can be re-used in the future at other events and locations.

This is particularly aimed at highlighting less discoverable but successful projects, e.g:

• Active Wikiprojects: Wikiproject Medicine, WikiProject Video Games, Wikiproject Film

• Tech projects/Tools, which may be looking for either users or developers.

• Less known major projects: Wikinews, Wikidata, Wikivoyage, etc.

• Wiki Loves Parliaments, Wiki Loves Monuments, Wiki Loves ____

• Wikimedia thematic organisations, Wikiwomen’s Collaborative, The Signpost

For more information or to sign up for one for your project, go to: Project leaflets Adikhajuria (talk) 14:54, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

is proposed to be renamed to Mao Zedong Thought, for the discussion, see Talk:Maoism -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 04:15, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

New River, Nanjing
New River, Nanjing, previously deleted via a deletion discussion, Articles for deletion/New River, Nanjing, is now being discussed at deletion review: Deletion review/Log/2014 June 25.-- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 15:13, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

RFC discussion relevant to Chinese song/album titles
Please see Talk:Damaged Lady, admittedly that is a Korean song, but the RFC is intended to address songs like 月亮代表我的心 as well. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:58, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Correction, actually 月亮代表我的心 is a bad example because the RFC specifically doesn't address songs with decent Google Books sources. Sorry, 乐天派 would be a better example. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:04, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Marxism-Leninism-Maoism ‎
Does fall under the purview of WPCHINA? -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 05:51, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Uyghur people
Currently I'm having in a problem with someone on Uyghur people who seems to be impervious to reason on his edits in the Education section. If anyone is interested in offering an opinion by contributing in the talk page, or help with the editing, please do. I'm rapidly losing interest in editing a page when he keeps reverting back to a badly written and sourced section, especially after I spent a long time trying to find sources for the edits. Hzh (talk) 17:37, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Vary Peri
I would be happy if someone assessed this.--BlackGaia02 (talkpage if you dare) (talk) 08:34, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

China-related books that may be eligible for Wikipedia articles
I found a list of China-related books from 2004-2005 which have book reviews. Any of these books are eligible for an article if they meet WP:GNG.

Is anyone planning to expand Wikipedia articles about related subjects? If so, it may help to also write Wikipedia articles on the books used as sources so editors can find the book reviews that are used to determine how best to use the source (what mistakes did the source make?). If anyone is interested and has access to university library accounts or wishes to use WP:RX to get reviews...
 * Chen, Fan Pen Li. Visions for the Masses: Chinese Shadow Plays from Shaanxi and Shanxi. (Cornell East Asia Series, 121.) xv, 262 pp., 17 plates. Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 2004.
 * Dikötter, Frank, Lars Laaman, and Zhou Xun. Narcotic Culture: A History of Drugs in China. xi, 319 pp. London: Hurst; Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2004.
 * Dudbridge, Glen. Books, Tales and Vernacular Culture: Selected Papers on China. (China Studies.) xii, 325 pp. Leiden and Boston: E. J. Brill, 2005.
 * Jones, Stephen. Plucking the Winds: Lives of Village Musicians in Old and New China (CHIME Studies in East Asian Music, 2.) ix, 426 pp., CD. Leiden: CHIME Foundation, 2004.
 * Jorgenson, John. Inventing Hui-neng, the Sixth Patriarch: Hagiography and Biography in Early Ch’an. (Sinica Leidensia, 68.) xxiv, 862 pp. Leiden and Boston: Brill, 2005.
 * Gerth, Karl. China Made: Consumer Culture and the Creation of the Nation. xvi, 445 pp. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2003.
 * Michael, Thomas. The Pristine Dao: Metaphysics in Early Daoist Discourse. (SUNY Series in Chinese Philosophy and Culture.) xi, 170 pp. Albany: State University of New York Press, 2005..
 * Poo, Mu-chou. ''Enemies of Civilization: Attitudes toward Foreigners in Ancient Mesopotamia, Egypt, and China. (SUNY Series in Chinese Philosophy and Culture.) xviii, 211 pp. Albany: State University of New York Press, 2005.
 * Reardon-Anderson, James. Reluctant Pioneers: China’s Expansion Northward 1644–1937. (Studies of the Weatherhead East Asian Institute, Columbia University.) xvii, 288 pp. Stanford: Stanford University Press, 2005.
 * Tian, Xiaofei. Tao Yuanming and Manuscript Culture: The Record of a Dusty Table. x, 319 pp. Seattle and London: University of Washington Press, 2005.
 * Wang, Zhenping: Ambassadors from the Islands of the Immortals: China–Japan Relations in the Han–Tang Period. (Asian Interaction and Comparisons.) xvi, 387 pp. Honolulu: Association for Asian Studies and University of Hawaii Press, 2005.

If anyone wants to write an article on one or more of the books please let me know WhisperToMe (talk) 11:32, 8 July 2014 (UTC)


 * This is a wonderful initiative! I just created an article on Wilkinson's "Chinese History: A New Manual" which I hope will be useful to this China Project. It sells for a little over $32, so many of us should think about getting it and using it as a reference for practically any topic in Chinese history and civilization. ch (talk) 20:02, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the kind words! The reason why I believe it's important to write about the books can be found in these sections: The_Spirit_Catches_You_and_You_Fall_Down and Hmong: History of a People. An editor of Hmong articles cautioned me about the use of the history information from The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down because it originated from Hmong: History of a People which he said was flawed. I checked and found what Hmong scholars and book reviewers had to say, so I wrote the sections using the secondary information. By having the articles on the books, the average Joe can trace the scholarship and Wikipedians can determine the best way to use sources. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:52, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

From doing research on Hmong: History of a People and reading a critique of the mistaken identity of a "Hmong King" by Entenmann (Hmong Studies Journal) I found some more possible things to write: WhisperToMe (talk) 15:34, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
 * François Marie Savina and his book Histoire des Miao - The former is a French missionary who worked in Indochina with Hmong there, and the second is his book, the first Western language account of the Hmong people
 * Jinchuan Wars - a war between Qianlong and the Jinchuan region
 * The section Ten_Great_Campaigns can be expanded and split off into a new article
 * Gyalrong - ethnic group, also known as the Jinchuan Hill peoples: The PRC government classifies them as Tibetans
 * Sonom (Tibetan: "bSod-nams") - Jinchuan king (Article exists on the Chinese Wikipedia: zh:索諾木朋楚克)


 * I agree and like your idea of giving priority to the "Response" or "Reception" sections of articles about books which the average Joe (or Zhou!) is likely to read. This is an important and unique function of Wikipedia. The Fadiman book is a good example because many Book Clubs and reading groups will feature it.
 * Is this a greater priority than academic books? My feeling is "yes." Academic readers are more likely to read or find (or write) the reviews for themselves. Undergrads, though, do need help.
 * When it comes to academic books, maybe one way to decide which ones are worth doing an article on is to check something like Google Scholar or JSTOR to see how many times it is cited. Cheers!ch (talk) 17:15, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Those are great ideas! Starting articles first on books for the average reader will help introduce the public to this idea!
 * I mainly do books already cited in subjects that interested me and ones which I had made Wikipedia edits on: So this means I've started articles on several average Joe books which I've cited. Also I personally write about academic books which are cited in articles that appeal to the average Joe. Liceo Mexicano Japones (a Japanese-Mexican private school in Mexico City) cites Masterson's The Japanese in Latin America and that book was crucial to having its notability proven in the Spanish Wikipedia AFD: es:Wikipedia:Consultas de borrado/Liceo Mexicano Japonés. A Spanish-language Wikipedia editor on his own accord started a Spanish translation of the English article of the Masterson book: es:The Japanese in Latin America
 * Writing about academic books and wikilinking names of the people reviewing them can help people learn more about the academic and what they stand for. Evelyn Hu-DeHart for instance reviewed Masterson's book and I've seen her name around several places.
 * One more thing: It may be important to let the Chinese Wikipedia know that the issue of Sonom being mistaken for a Hmong king needs to be covered over there too, so academia in China and academia in the US are on the same page!
 * User:WhisperToMe 14:01, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Editor removing any suggestion that Hui generals were Muslims from articles
We have a new editor,, removing any suggestion that there were Muslim Hui generals., and others. He basically says that this was all started by Bai Shouyi and tried to discredit him by adding unsourced criticism. Dougweller (talk) 13:49, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
 * If he is removing valid references, ask him to provide reliable sources that support his objections. Then we can rewrite those lines to say "Suchandsuch was considered by Whoandwho to be a Muslim, but this has been refuted by Blah" or similar. But if the academic consensus is overwhelmingly against the Muslim claims, then we can leave that out completely. A good place to start may be the Dictionary of Ming Biography, 1368-1644 _dk (talk) 06:29, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

chinese questions
What is the transcription of the Chinese of File:HongqiaoNewHighSchool.jpg? I can't find the Chinese name from the English. Also File:ShanghaiUnknownES.jpg and File:ShanghaiUnknownSecSchool.jpg

So 上海市澄衷初级中学 would be Shanghai City Chengzhong Junior High School, right?

WhisperToMe (talk) 10:49, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Shanghai Chengzhong Middle School would do it. Philg88 ♦talk 12:02, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I'm awaiting the other Chinese transcriptions WhisperToMe (talk) 16:44, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Chinese people
On 15 March 2007, a disambiguation-cleanup tag was removed from Chinese people and replaced with a stub tag. Since that time, the only really substantive [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chinese_people&diff=617399266&oldid=115181655 change] that I can see (ignoring many small changes and improved referencing) is to split PRC and ROC from one bullet into two. The page still looks like either a really poorly formatted DAB page or a really insufficient stub, despite being rated TOP importance. Does anyone have any ideas about how it might be improved? Is there really an encyclopedic concept to be written about? Probably there is, but I'm not sure what that concept is and how it relates to, say, Zhonghua minzu. Cnilep (talk) 02:10, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi . Thanks for flagging this. How "Chinese people" see themselves is a complicated cultural issue. From a nationalistic perspective, yes, they are Chinese and wouldn't deny that. However, generally-speaking and based on my experience in the country, people tend to describe themselves either as Han Chinese or as one of the other 55 ethnic groups (this, incidentally is how official biographies are written, with a single character indicating ethnicity.). In short, there isn't a lot that can be expanded in the Chinese people article and it would be better to remain a DAB page where Zhonghua minzu is the key topic. Cheers,  Philg88 ♦talk 05:15, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
 * If there are various groups that could be called "Chinese people", then we need to explain the circumstances under which these groups are or are not so described. This falls under WP:DABCONCEPT - it is not an "ambiguous" term at all so long as it is possible to explain the relationship between the various definitions. bd2412  T 15:45, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I've [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chinese_people&diff=618062142&oldid=617399266 had a whack]. Go ahead and change it as necessary. Cnilep (talk) 02:04, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

If anyone around here was looking for something to do
The new article on Kuaiji Commandery could use material available to be translated at zh:会稽郡 and Baidu Baike's article. I don't think it's quite good enough yet to list on WP:DYK but could easily be, with some of the lists filled in. — Llywelyn II   12:36, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Koxinga and the imperial Kingdom of Taiwan
An IP editor keeps changing references to Koxinga to "Lord Koxinga", saying he became emperor of the "Kingdom of Taiwan" on Koxinga-related articles. Please help. _dk (talk) 09:05, 22 July 2014 (UTC)


 * For your information, Lord Koxinga was both the founder and the first monarch of the monarchy known as the Kingdom of Taiwan, that is a historical fact. And the term "Lord Koxinga" is the historically accepted British and European usage of his name. "Lord Koxinga" is used in many European publications. Most importantly the European and Dutch academic sources specifically use a longer version of the term "Lord Koxinga" which was used in Europe. If you want to confirm please look at the official Treaty between Lord Koxinga and the Dutch Government here:

http://www.taiwandocuments.org/koxinga.htm

It specifically mentions a "LORD TEIBINGH TSIANTE TEYSIANCON KOXIN" and further down on the official treaty it specifically mentions "Lord Koxinga," please take a look at the official Treaty between Lord Koxinga and the Dutch Government following the defeat of the Dutch:

Treaty made and agreed upon; from the one side, by His Highness the LORD TEIBINGH TSIANTE TEYSIANCON KOXIN, who has besieged Castle Zeelandia on Formosa since 1st May 1661 up till this 1st day of February 1662; and from the other side, as representing the Dutch Government, by the Governor of the said Castle, FREDERIK COYETT, and his Council, consisting of the undernoted eighteen Articles:

Article 2

Castle Zeelandia, with its outworks, artillery, remaining war materiel, merchandise, money, and other properties belonging to the Honourable Company, to be surrendered to LORD KOXINGA.

Article 4

All private movable property inside the Castle or elsewhere belonging to officers of the Dutch Government, shall first be inspected by LORD KOXINGA's delegates, and then placed on board the said ships.

Article 10

The said LORD KOXINGA shall now return to the Company the four captured boats, with all their accessories.

Article 13

So long as the Honourable Company's people remain on land before embarkation, no soldier or other subject of LORD KOXINGA shall be permitted to enter the Castle (unless...on service for the Company), to approach the outworks nearer than the gabions, or to proceed further than the palisades erected by order of His Highness.

Article 16

As soon as this agreement is signed, sealed, and sworn to on both sides, each according to his country's customs, LORD KOXINGA shall deliver to one of the Dutch ships two hostages, viz. the Mandarin or Captain Moor Ongkun and Pimpan Jamoosje of the political Council. On the other side, and as representing the Company, LORD KOXINGA shall receive custody of Mr. Jan Oetgens van Waveren, an official second in rank to the Governor, and Mr. David Harthouwer, also a member of the Formosan Council. Each of these hostages shall remain in a previously fixed place until everything has been carried out in accordance with the terms of this contract.

Article 17

Chinese prisoners at present in the Castle or on the Company's ships shall be exchanged for any of our people who have been seized by the subjects of LORD KOXINGA.

And at the very end of the official treaty it is officially signed by both parties as:

LORD CHEN CH'ENG-KUNG,   [L.S.]

FREDERIK COYETT,   [L.S.]

75.182.34.113 (talk) 12:01, 22 July 2014 (UTC)


 * (@75.182.*) I don't see why it's necessary to include a title before his name within articles here. We don't use "His Holiness, the Dalai Lama" or "Sir Winston Churchill" every time those two names are mentioned, we just write their names. What an old treaty document from years back says doesn't really matter for these cases. -- benlisquare T•C•E 12:14, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * This is discussed at MOS:HONORIFIC, where the guidance is not to include honorific prefixes, except in certain cases that don't apply here. Kanguole 12:23, 22 July 2014 (UTC)


 * This is for historical accuracy, he titles should be mentioned in the first sentence of the article and then can be omitted in the rest of the article for simplicity. But they should be mentioned at least in the first sentence for academic accuracy.
 * We shouldn't be referring to contemporary Dutch sources, who had little understanding of the Chinese bureaucratic structure, the proper terms of address, or the politics of the time, for historically accuracy. If you want to support your argument that Koxinga became something more than the Prince of Yanping, please use secondary sources since Dutch records are considered WP:primary sources. _dk (talk) 13:10, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not surprising that the Dutch surrender document applies an honorific to the victor, but that's not the usual form of his name in English-language sources, which is what we should follow. Kanguole 14:23, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Look at Wikipedia's policy on reliable sources. We should not base our edits on documents form the 17th century but rather from modern secondary and tertiary works. Turning to a primary source and creating your own interpretation without reference to available modern secondary sources is original research which we don't do here. "Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources." Wikipedia bases itself on reliable sources not original research or personal interpretations of historical documents.

Secondly, this is the English Wikipedia and we base our names firstly on English language sources where they are available. There are plenty of English language sources about Koxinga so we need not and should not be translating Dutch. The English sources may in part be using the Dutch source, but it has been passed through skilled translators, fact checking, professional editing and had a scholar place those facts within the context of all the other sources and information in a balanced and proportional way. If we look at some modern English language sources:


 * Statecraft and Political Economy on the Taiwan Frontier, 1600-1800 By John Robert Shepherd mentions Lord Koxinga" once only when quoting the Dutch treaty but uses simply Koxinga'' the rest of the time.


 * Likewise, Lost Colony: The Untold Story of China's First Great Victory over the West By Tonio Andrade mentions Lord Koxinga twice, again within quotations from Dutch documents, but uses vanilla Koxinga over 100 times throughout the book.

Based on these and other sources, our article Koxinga should only use the word Lord within the section quoting the treaty with the Dutch. For all other mentions of Koxinga he should be untitled. Rincewind42 (talk) 15:22, 22 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Yep. A mention of his official title is possibly required in the treaty section but nowhere else. See also WP:COMMONNAME - I've only ever seen him referred to as "Koxinga" in English sources. Philg88 ♦talk 15:57, 22 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The user has switched to another IP at after I hit him with a 3RR warning and continued to revert our reversions even with the above discussion thread. As I am not very experienced with dealing with IP-hopping vandals, what should be our next step, I ask? _dk (talk) 03:10, 23 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I'd say you can go to WP:ANEW and argue that 3RR had been breached, after all, both IPs are located in South Carolina (one of them a public library), and any WP:DUCK test would point to both being the exact same person. Until this person learns how to properly engage in community consensus-building as opposed to shouting the same words over and over again like a broken record, I don't believe that they are capable in making good faith contributions. I could have assumed good faith before, but as soon as the change in IP took place (and after a 3RR warning, at that), I don't think assuming good faith is relevant anymore. -- benlisquare T•C•E 11:37, 23 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Since Wikipedia is a public encyclopedia, we are obligated to ensure that historical accuracy is maintained for all articles. Perhaps in the USA you do not have the tradition of titles and aristocratic names but in Europe we have always been accustomed to the noble usage of titles, aristocratic and royal lineages, coat of arms etc. So what I propose is that we just use "Lord Koxinga" in only the first sentence of the article and then use just "Koxinga" for simplicity in the rest of the article.  In this way we make a reasonable compromise between simplicity and ease of reading vs. maintain historical accuracy.  And just in case some editors don't know, research into history is NOT done exclusively by studying contemporary "modern" sources, when we historians study history of ages past we must look at the actual documents and writings of the people who lived during the time period in which we are studying.  And once we have learned as much as possible from this old sources then we can write new books and post new information to modern sources of media. Modern sources are also studied, but keep in mind that the authors of these "modern" sources have also extensively studied the old original documents and writings in order to gather the information necessary for their "modern" source. 75.182.34.113 (talk) 10:47, 23 July 2014 (UTC)


 * If you want to propose something, discuss it here and wait for an outcome, do not edit war at the same time. See bold, revert, discuss for more details on what you should do; continuing to make reverts against the status quo whilst a discussion is going on, despite multiple requests for you to stop, constitutes disruptive editing. -- benlisquare T•C•E 11:48, 23 July 2014 (UTC)


 * @ Wikipedia is emphatically not a place for new historical research. Original research is forbidden. Wikipedia is written based on secondary sources. We should not be looking at writings of people who lived during the time period in which we are studying. Assessing primary sources is a complex task for professional historians to undertake. Wikipedia's job is merely to summarise existing published knowledge on the subject. If you don't agree with this policy, then Wikipedia is perhaps not for you. No original research is one of the core content policies along with neutral point of view and Verifiability. If you think you can argue and change the policy, then do so at no original research policy's talk page not here. Rincewind42 (talk) 13:57, 23 July 2014 (UTC)


 * For your information, the original document of the Treaty between Lord Koxinga and the Dutch is an official document that has been verified by numerous historians. Second, using the original VERIFIED document as a source does NOT qualify as so-called original research. Third, it seem that some of the editors on Wikipedia, I refrain from embarrassing anyone out of civilized conduct as we are gentleman and not savages, are the prime culprits who are editing against historical accuracy and thus preventing a neutral point of view from even being established. Wikipedia must maintain historical accuracy in order to uphold the integrity of it's purpose as a freely accessible encyclopedia for the general populace of the world. Please refrain from trying to input modern cultural notions into these historical articles as we need to maintain academic truthfulness! Thank you! 75.182.34.113 (talk) 22:34, 23 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I regret to say that we cannot have a discussion when one of the concerned parties has no concept of a primary source vs a secondary source and has the gall to lecture us about historical accuracy. Excuse me while I laugh like a savage. _dk (talk) 01:48, 24 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Besides, Lord Koxinga is a tautology. Rincewind42 (talk) 01:54, 24 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Heh, never thought of it that way, but it makes sense now that you mention it. The 爺 in "Lord 國姓爺" already means lord, this is one of those cases on par with ATM machine, PIN number, or RAS syndrome. -- benlisquare T•C•E 01:59, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

In addition to adding Lord to Koxinga, the IP is changing any mention of the Kingdom of Tungning into Kingdom of Taiwan, which though it appears in a small number of sources, it is by an far dwarfed by frequency of use of Tungning as the common name. The following pages are affected: Kingdom of Tungning, History of Taiwan, Template:History of Taiwan, Kingdom of Middag, Siege of Fort Zeelandia and Koxinga. Rincewind42 (talk) 02:10, 24 July 2014 (UTC)


 * For your information, the Kingdom for Taiwan is the commonly used standard name in the Western European countries as well as in the USA. Nobody knows Tungning in the West.  Traditionally, Western historians have made names more accessible to the Western non-Chinese speaking public which is the reason why Kung Fu Tse is known to the West as Confucius, Cheng Chen Kong is known as Koxinga and Kingdom of Tungning is known as Kingdom of Taiwan by Western history academics. It is not in any way "far dwarfed" by the use of "Tungning."  It turns out that in the West nobody uses "Tungning" and that Kingdom of Taiwan is used with the highest frequency in the West because it is more easily accessible to the American and European public. Exactly the opposite of what you said! 75.182.34.113 (talk) 11:00, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * You are going to need to provide sources to back up your words. I have seen Kingdom of Formosa sometimes, but almost never Kingdom of Taiwan; though Tungning itself is slowly being replaced by the pinyin Dongning too nowadays. _dk (talk) 12:30, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * If you think that the Kingdom of Tungning article should have a different title, the appropriate course is to open a Requested Move discussion at that article and present your evidence there. Kanguole 08:31, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The IP seems very keep to tell us what the differences are between the western countries and eastern countries as if we have know idea ourselves. His idea that editors here only know eastern culture and don't understand the west is really odd. I'm sure that many of the editors here, no names, have an extremely good idea what is common in the USA and Europe because that is most likely where they were born and/or live. A simple search on google books, in English, yealds, 89 results for Kingdom of Tunging and 20 for Kingdom of Taiwan. This should be further reduces as many of the reference to a Kingdom of Taiwan are about a completely different times. For example: one calls the Japanese occupation the Kingdom of Taiwan, another calls Chang's rule the Kingdom of Taiwan, a third is referencing a time during the Sui dynasty, a fourth is talking about Taiwan's cinema culture in the 60s and 70s, a sixth is a modern company of that name, etc, etc. I only count 8 out of the 20 that actually referencing Koxinga's time period.


 * As Kanguole says, if you really want to change this you should follow the Requested Move procedure rather than repeatedly revert edits. However, in that process you have to provide real evidence. Just stating your personal opinion or feelings is insufficient. Rincewind42 (talk) 10:48, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Languages in censuses and Race and ethnicity in censuses
Pleas add information about this country to this articles.--Kaiyr (talk) 14:22, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

See RfC on traditional vs. simplified characters in infobox
The RfC Template talk:Infobox Chinese/Chinese is likely to be of interest to regular participants here. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  02:19, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Mass removal of ROC from China-related templates and articles
Refer to Special:Contributions/Uaat - this user has made unexplained removals without any edit summaries, for instance removing modern ROC(T) from History of China. After I reverted and asked them to make a clear explanation, he reverted me, again with no edit summary. -- benlisquare T•C•E 11:34, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Luo Yigu at FAC
Hello all. Just to let you know that I have nominated a WikiProject China article, Luo Yigu, over at FAC, if any of you would like to take a look and offer an opinion. Luo was the first wife of Mao Zedong, whom he married many years before he became famous; thus little is known of her and it is a fairly short article. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:00, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

The Single character administrative divisions
Recently, I just changes on the format of single character administrative division in multiple articles of "List of administrative divisions of ..." and the single character administrative division articles itself [examples Pi County → Pixian (county), Jiao Distirct/Subrban District → Jiaoqu, & Mang City → Mangshi (city)] for the "List of administrative divisions of ..." and the single character administrative units such as Pi County article showing [Pi County or Pixian] in the heading. Rincewind42 disagree with my changes and believe it is a form of tautology on my talk page.

For my opinions, I believe it is not a form of tautology because Pi County is actually transcribe as Píxiàn not Píxiàn County, Pí Xiàn or Pi County (official webs; another example: Shanxian official webs). The later three of Pi County are wrong because one character county/city/district in pinyin always combined as a single unit not two units also the are always transcribe as as "Example"xian not "Example"xian County, "Example" County or "Example" Xian. The edit I made on the "List of administrative divisions of ..." are not tautologies I just indicating the common transcription the bracket ...xian (county) just to shows it is a county not a city of a district. If it was tautology I would have use Pixian County not Pixian (county). The word county is also not capitalize which indicate is not not part of the proper name because Pixian alone is ambiguous to non Chinese speakers/readers. Try google Pi County, Pixian County, Pi Xian and Pixian or Mang City, Mangshi City, Mang Shi and Mangshi the most common conventional Latin alphabet spelling is always Pixian and Mangshi not the other. Also, I would like to point out the convention on single character administrative divisions is not uniformed such as Chengqu, Jincheng instead of Cheng Distirct, Jincheng or Urban District, Jicheng / Nanqu instead of Nan District or South District, etc.— ASDFGH =]  talk? 08:01, 31 July 2014 (UTC)


 * So that we are all on the same page, we are discussing this edit on Pi County and this edit List of administrative divisions of Sichuan among many other similar edits made to Counties and lists of administrative divisions throughout China. In total I count about 123 individual articles affected. Also to make it clear that this is not a new topic. there is an existing guideline at NC-CHINA.


 * Using Pixian is not a tautology. Using Pi County is not a tautology. However, using Pixian (county) is a tautology. It makes no difference whither the 'c' in county is capitalised, whither there are brackets or not or whither you put as space before xian or not it is still a tautology. Look at WP:NC-CHINA which gives examples also look at some other examples that show the normal practice for non-counties:


 * Mount Tai not Taishan (mount)
 * Huai River not Huaihe (river)
 * Mang city not Mangshi (city)


 * Secondly, why only names with single characters. The changes ASDFGH made would apply to names with two letter characters just the same as it would do to three letter names and so on. Single character names are not common in China so it may sound odd to some ear to here a short name. I know I prefer to say Taishan than Mount Tai but I would never ever say or write Taishan (mount) or Taishan Mountain. Same goes for Pi County. It may sound odd to your ear because you usually only say the name in Chinese. However if Pixian is correct then why not Changlixian or Jingxingxian? Only putting xian onto single character names is inconsistent.


 * All place names in China are commonly followed by a classifier such as 市, 区, 省, etc. In all English language pages we omit these words, and their translations except where disambiguation is required. In many of the changes ASDFGH made, there is no need to disambiguate the names. Where disambiguation is required, WP:NC-CHINA already says to add the English word county, province or city. It gives the example "Pan County 盘县". In Wikipedia articles we never add the pinyin of the Chinese word such as xian, shi or sheng. We use the English word in preference of the pinyin.


 * The edits also create duplication. Take for example Pan Count. It now begins with the line "Pan County or Panxian (Chinese: 盘县; pinyin: Pánxiàn)" Here we have Panxian repeated twice: once before and again within the brakets. We really only need it once so within the brackets is quite sufficient.


 * -- Rincewind42 (talk) 06:11, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The ...xian (county) was only use to disambiguate the type of division for those "List of of administrative divisions of ..." articles not the others only those specified articles. The main purpose of the "List of  of administrative divisions of ..." is to show the divisions and the type of divisions and disambiguate is needed for those articles.


 * It is not duplication, the main problem is WP:COMMONNAME. See heading for Stone Forest, Chao Lake, Pearl River (China), Dian Lake, and many other similar articles.


 * You point out why it is call Pixian is correct then why not Changlixian or Jingxingxian. The simple answer is 郫县 (Pixian) is a proper name, while 郫 (Pi) just a character in Chinese. On the other hand 昌黎县 (Changli Xian) or 昌黎 (Changli) both are proper name of Changli County the 县 is optional for Changli but not for Pixian.


 * For example, it is call Dehong Mangshi Airport not Dehong Mang City Airport or Dehong Mang Airport also Pixian Doubanjiang not Pi County Doubanjiang or Pi Doubanjiang a type of Doubanjiang. — ASDFGH =]  talk? 17:33, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

"1978年9月26日，国务院批转文字改革委员会、外交部、测绘总局、地名委员会《关于改用汉语拼音方案拼写中国人名地名作为罗马字母拼写法的实施说明》第三条规定：“在各外语中地名的专名部分原则上音译，用汉语拼音字母拼写，通名部分（如省、市、自治区、江、河、湖、海等）采取意译. 但在专名是单音节时，其通名应视作专名的一部分，先音译，后重复意译. 例如珠江，须翻译成“Zhujiang River”."
 * Comment Interestingly, the Chinese Wikipedia article on Hanyu Pinyin gives this interesting tidbit about single character place names:


 * This rule is apparently written into ISO 7098, but I have not verified this. _dk (talk) 12:58, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Also under Hanyu Pinyin nouns that are monosyllabic prefixes or suffixes are linked a lot of the Wikipedia articles on places are not accurate. — ASDFGH =]  talk? 20:11, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Just a quick note to remind everyone that usage in reliable sources takes precedence over Wikipedia editors' desire to eliminate tautologies. I expect the two are rarely in conflict, however there are a few geological features in the Rocky Mountains called Table Mesa, even though mesa means table in Spanish. (There are no Table Mesa Wikipedia articles as yet.)--Wikimedes (talk) 15:44, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * If the Pinyin is wrong in the article – edit the pinyin in column No.4. I note that the pinyin is still spaced there. But leave the English word county in column No.2. Note that the word county is capitalised that thus part of the proper noun according to English grammar rules. E.g. Pi county would be wrong but Pi County is correct.


 * As for Wikimedes' comment, a search on Google books for |Pi County and |Pixian comes up fairly evenly split but slightly higher on the Pi County side. I only found Pixian County in two cookery books (not reliable sources) and I found one instance of County of Pixian. Thus Pi County is a common English language name for this entity. Lets have, "English name (Chinese script; Hanyu Pinyin)..." as it was before and not duplicate the pinyin in bold outside the brackets. If the pinyin shouldn't have a space, the remove the space in the pinyin section. Rincewind42 (talk) 15:41, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for indulging my rather tangential comment. That's about what I get from Google Books as well.--Wikimedes (talk) 19:58, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Question about how to determine the actual hanzi of a Malaysian Chinese copilot of MH17
At Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Malaysia please see my question on how to determine the hanzi of a Malaysian Chinese MH17 copilot. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:20, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Swordswoman Riding West on White Horse
I am proposing a rename on this article; join in discussion. --George Ho (talk) 19:38, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Renaming more Jin Yong novels
Here are more related discussions: Talk:Other Tales of the Flying Fox and Talk:Blade-dance of the Two Lovers. --George Ho (talk) 05:14, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Hundred Family Surnames
There is a storm brewing over at Hundred Family Surnames where editor tries to convert the layout to a table form instead of the current form with Ruby characters. (Compare and ) I have reverted him, citing my concerns and preferences, and then he came to my talk page to discuss the issue further (User_talk:Underbar_dk. I suggested to move the discussion to the article's talk page after it has been made clear that we need more input from others since we clearly disagree. But since there has been no input on that page since, he has reinstated his edits with some kind of warning . According to WP:BRD, I believe we should have let the discussion run its course before the article is edited again. Please join in the discussion. _dk (talk) 09:13, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but it is indeed better to have a chart, I think. I apologise that I am trying to start an edit war, and I make an oath to not touch that article until the matter is solved. I wanted to put it into a chart as both types of Mandarin is still used. I understand that the text was written during the Song Dynasty, but in whatever case it is, it is still unfair to just depend the text on Traditional Chinese. Thanks, Nahnah4  |  Any thoughts? Pen 'em down here!  |  No Editcountitis!  05:10, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
 * There is no need to reiterate your points in three threads, let's keep the discussion in one place on Talk:Hundred Family Surnames where you can try to convince others as well. _dk (talk) 07:43, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Johnson_South_Reef_Skirmish
I like your input. Is it improper to state: "Over 70 killed; Vietnamese figure: 3 killed and 74 missing" (like this ) in the infobox of the article or should the "over 70 killed" be combined. --Cold Season (talk) 02:16, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Chang'e 4 & return module
Is the new lunar Earth reentry module part of Chang'e 4  ? From my understanding Chang'e 3 does not contain an orbital component to bus this new module, but Chang'e 4 will still repeat Chang'e 3's mission profile, lacking a component from which to perform the sample return capsule test. So is this new mission Chang'e 4 or some other mission? -- 65.94.169.222 (talk) 07:44, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Online Chinese Wikipedian magazine
The new Wikipedian online magazine is available for download here in simplified or traditional format. More information can be found here. Philg88 ♦talk 06:43, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Zangfu
Template:Zangfu has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. DH85868993 (talk) 09:43, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Chinese Spring Offensive
FYI, there is a notice about this article at WT:MILHIST -- 65.94.169.222 (talk) 06:49, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Chinese names needed for Kweilin Incident
In regards to the Kweilin Incident Chinese names are needed for "Chungking" (the rename of the airplane), Lieu Chung-chuan (copilot of the Kweilin incident flight), and Changyiby (where is that?). It may help to find Chinese and Japanese sources on the incident WhisperToMe (talk) 14:04, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

DOI Check when you cite journal articles
You can add DOI numbers to journal article citations with this tool: http://www.crossref.org/guestquery/ - Many articles rely on journal article citations. Users from Mainland China may not be familiar with North American or European academic journals, so the DOI links can help them become familiar with these sources. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:58, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Transcription of address in Chinese requested
Hi! Here is a South Korean address written in Chinese at the bottom of the page: http://www.pelicana.co.kr/global/chinese/index.php?c=peli&d=corp - May I have a transcription of this address?

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 19:03, 21 August 2014 (UTC)


 * @WhisperToMe:  忠清南道鸡龙市豆磨面旺垈里257番地  Philg88 ♦talk 17:49, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I should add 鸡龙市 = Gyeryong and it's a company that sells ground up soy noodles—although I've no idea why anyone would want to do that. Philg88 ♦talk 17:53, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, I think it's a Gyerong speciality: 豆磨面 = ground chicken noodles or similar. Philg88 ♦talk 17:59, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much! I added the Chinese address to zh:百利家乐. It's a Korean fried chicken restaurant. I visited the Shanghai restaurant (you can see it in the photograph I posted for the article) and the food tasted great :) WhisperToMe (talk) 18:22, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll take your word for it :) Maybe give it a try next time I'm in Shanghai. Philg88 ♦talk 22:02, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Lists of lighthouses
I just started List of lighthouses in China and List of lighthouses in Taiwan exists. Just letting you know. I stay out of such issues. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:55, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Question about Shaxian delicacies
I started writing about Shaxian Delicacies - But I became a bit confused. Is "Shaxian Delicacies" a chain, or is it just some kind of branding? The logo is like a red Pac-Man.

English sources:
 * "What makes Shaxian Delicacies so popular?" (Archive). CNTV. December 15, 2011.
 * "Shaxian Snacks Strike Chinese Stomachs with Flair and Flavor" (Archive). China Radio International. April 28, 2012.

Somebody also started an article: Shaxian snacks

Once it becomes clear I can start a Chinese Wikipedia stub on it.

WhisperToMe (talk) 15:51, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * According to this article, the term "Shaxian Delicacies" (though I would translate the term "沙縣小吃" as "Sha County Snacks") is just a type of regional cuisine that originated in Sha County, Fujian. Restaurants selling the regional food spread out of Sha County by coincidence, not according to any well-organized corporate or government plan. It did not originally refer to a specific or trademarked restaurant chain, though the article says that a government-supported association, the "Association of Shaxian Delicacies", recently trademarked the term and uses it to license independent Sha County restaurants operating across the country.Ferox Seneca (talk) 23:38, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I'm going to start an article on it on the Chinese Wikipedia WhisperToMe (talk) 09:46, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

The English article on Shaxian snacks needs to have improvements in the language but I'm not sure whether to clean up the text or whether someone should rewrite it anyway WhisperToMe (talk) 10:22, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Recreation of State of Yang (Yang Kingdom)
This seems to have been deleted recreated - and doesn't link into either zh.wp or our own articles. Similar odd creation of a "new" Vietnamese-Chinese Yang dynasty during the Third Chinese domination of Vietnam new article linked in here. And a Cheju kingdom in Korea, but that's for WikiProject Korea I guess. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:16, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Looking through the author's other contribs, I don't know what to think. Draft:Later Sui Empire attempts to use pages from an "alternate history" Wikia as citations. -- benlisquare T•C•E 06:31, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Largest fast food chains in China
I found an interesting list of the largest fast food chains in China: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2014-07/28/content_17932826.htm

Several of these companies had no articles on Wikipedia in either English or Chinese. CNHLS (Hualaishi or "Wallace") is the largest Chinese-owned fast food company in the country and No. 2 overall, and yet it had no article in either English or Chinese until very recently. Also those lacking articles in either language until now: Pala Hamburger and Master Kong Chef's Table (the latter is of Ting Hsin which also owns Dico's). Kungfu (restaurant) had an article in Chinese but only recently got an English article. And someone needs to start Jiangsu Da Niang Dumpling Co Ltd, LEM hamburger, Shanghai Shihao Catering Co Ltd (owns Gil Wonton).

In addition, in the case of CNHLS and Pala Hamburger if someone wants to add info from the English article to the Chinese article, please do so.

Thank you, WhisperToMe (talk) 10:18, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * One down, two to go. Da Niang Dumplings already existed in Chinese but now it's in English too WhisperToMe (talk) 10:13, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

This article mentions another chain: "Country Style Cooking" which seems to be big in western China WhisperToMe (talk) 10:41, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * "Chinese fast food firms challenging McDonald's." China Daily. October 29, 2013. p. 1 (Archive).

More: This mentions HeheGu, another fast food Chinese company, but one not on the top 10
 * Chen, Yingqun and Hu Haiyan. "Chinese chains rise to challenge" (Archive). China Daily. June 15-21, 2012. Page 13.

Others not on the top 10: WhisperToMe (talk) 12:18, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * zh:贝克汉堡 (no article yet) Bèi​kè Hàn​bǎo http://www.bkhb88.com/ - From contact page (Archive): 北京盛世源动力餐饮管理有限公司（北京总部） - 北京市通州区地铁八通线九棵树站对面瑞都国际中心2003室 - So this company is headquartered in Beijing
 * zh:快乐星 (no article yet) KDS - Contact info (Archive): 上海斗石餐饮管理有限公司: 金沙江西路1555弄慧创 国际16号楼2层
 * zh:牛仔芭比 Cowboy Barbie http://www.1314666.com/ and http://coffee.1314666.com/ - Has article on Baidu Baike: http://baike.baidu.com/view/4509188.htm?fr=aladdin - Contact Info (Archive): 长沙台众品牌策划有限公司 湖南省长沙市芙蓉区韶山北路文化大厦15A18室

List of annual events in China
I just started List of annual events in China and it's a bit of an overlap with Traditional Chinese holidays and Public holidays in China.

I made it because there are plenty of other List of annual events in XXXX so it seemed like a good idea at the time.

So, what now? Limit its scope? Delete it? Merge it? Expand it? Ignore it? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:47, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

RFC: Ethnic minorities in the Philippines and Vietnam
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Territorial disputes in the South China Sea. Thanks. Rajmaan (talk) 16:19, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The usage of is under discussion, see Talk:Aidi (footballer, born 1990) -- 65.94.171.225 (talk) 16:29, 25 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Apart from 艾迪·弗朗西斯 Àidí·Fúlǎngxīsī also 阿蘭·達瓦卓瑪 Ālán Dáwǎzhuómǎ could do with more eyes. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:19, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Revising Human Trafficking in China Wiki Article
I am a student from Rice University in Houston, TX, and I am looking forward to extensively editing the page on "Human Trafficking in China" as part of a Wikipedia project for my Poverty, Justice, and Human Capabilities class. I would like to revise the current page and bring it to a “Good Rating” by adding new information, restructuring the article, and condensing current information. The page lacks adequate references and derives most of its information from a single source. The banner of the page lists multiple issues such as compromised neutrality, lack of links to other articles, and reliance upon a single source. I would like to condense the information on the current page and add new sections/topics that help to create a more cohesive and encyclopedic entry on human trafficking in China.

I would appreciate any input in deleting and restructuring information on the page, especially since this is an article that is listed as biased. I would like any advice on approaching the topic of editing this page and would be more than welcome to any feedback since this is my first time working with Wikipedia. Please let me know if you have any questions, comments, or concerns before I start my project and edit the page.

Dwang41 (talk) 06:11, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Animal breed
We are having difficulty determining if the Guoxia is a real horse breed or other authentic "type" of miniature horse native to China. Can anyone here look into Chinese language sources to see if there is independent verification of a small horse named some equivalent of "Guoxia" or "Chinese dwarf pnoy" or "Under the Fruit Trees Pony" or whatever? All our searches are turning up only Wikipedia mirrors or references to our only "real" source, a work by Hendricks. The FAO, which usually is generous in its listings, does not list such a breed. Can anyone help? A very small horse/pony like this should turn up if there is one. Montanabw (talk) 16:13, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal
Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Help with an article?
I need some help with the article Umbrella Man (Occupy Central Movement, Hong Kong). It's about a specific photograph that is related to the OCM and it needs some serious TLC. It was up for a speedy (which I've declined) but I'm thinking that a merge to the main OCM article would be best due to the limited amount of coverage that I could find. However, I did want to ask around to various WikiProjects to see if they could help out some when it comes to finding foreign language sources or sources I may have missed. Anyone interested? Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)   08:15, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Sure. I'll do some work on it later. Philg88 ♦talk 12:21, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I've done a copyedit and left a comment on the article's talk page. Philg88 ♦talk 06:32, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion notice
There is a discussion at Talk:Chang Tso-lin about whether or not the page should be moved back to the Hanyu Pinyin form of his name, "Zhang Zuolin". Please participate if you are interested.Ferox Seneca (talk) 12:44, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Currency template
There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan about how to disambiguation between "¥" for Japanese yen and "CN¥" for Chinese yuan. Please feel free to contribute on that page.  Stepho  talk 10:04, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Disability in China
I am hoping to start a new page titled "Disability in China", focusing on various aspects of disability as related to citizens in China. I am structuring my page using "Disability in Australia" and "Americans with Disabilities" and currently hope to cover the topics of "Prevelance", "Trends", "Law" (specifically the ways the One-Child Policy and United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities" affect individuals with disabilities), "Education", "Advocacy" (highlighting the work of Deng Xiaoping's son, Deng Pufang), "Organizations" (such as the China Disabled Persons' Federation), and "Sport" (such as the 2010 Asian Para Games and 2008 Beijing Paralympics).

If anyone has suggestions about what information I should add or remove or are interested in any of these sub-topics, please let me know! I would appreciate any assistance or feedback! Thank you! -- Appleangel11 (talk) 15:15, 2 October 2014

WP:VG comments subpages cleanup
Hi, there is currently a discussion taking place at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games regarding whether it would be acceptable to permanently shift all comments subpages associated with WP:VG articles into talk. This shift would follow the recommended approach given at WP:DCS. The WikiProject China articles that would be affected by this action are these: If you have objections related specifically to WikiProject China's use of these subpages, please make this clear at the discussion so that other unrelated talk pages can be cleaned up where appropriate. Thank you. -Thibbs (talk) 15:55, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Online gaming in China

之乎者也
is under discussion, see Talk:Zhi Hu Zhe Ye (Lo Ta-yu album) -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 21:16, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Why is RoC different to Kosovo?
I've opened a discussion at Talk: Taiwan about how to describe the Republic of China consistent with how Wikipedia describes other partially recognised states like Kosovo. Participation welcomed. Frenchmalawi (talk) 19:16, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

All China Women's Federation
Hello WikiProject China members. Shelby McPherson nominated the article All-China Women's Federation here, but she is inactive as you see here. Could anyone step in and make this article GA? Cheers! Brandon (MrWooHoo) • Talk to Brandon!  21:59, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Proposal: TaskForce Language, Diaspora and Ethnic Chinese
Per the above section, WPCHINA banners are being removed from articles that involve locations outside of China. So a specific switch should be added to the banner to indicate the topics are in scope -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 06:19, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree that the scope needs to be indicated in the banner and in the project's front page! WhisperToMe (talk) 07:34, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
 * If a  ;   ;   activates a message saying "" which will give visual information, and coding information (well viewed from source mode, showing a switch activation) that would improve the banner, and give explicit coded indication. -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 06:41, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with this. Let me know if/when it is put in. Once it is, I will restore the China banner to Chinese in Greater Vancouver (it should still be at this title) and I will notify Skookum1 that the project has decided that the WikiProject banner belongs at this article. WhisperToMe (talk) 06:55, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Talk:Chinese Canadian is also missing the WikiProject China banner. The project members need to make it clear that diaspora articles are a part of this project. Should this be on the front page? WhisperToMe (talk) 06:11, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Move request: Chinese_Canadians_in_British_Columbia to Chinese_Canadians_in_Greater Vancouver
Hello. I have submitted a move request for Chinese_Canadians_in_British_Columbia to be moved to Chinese_Canadians_in_Greater Vancouver. Another Wikipedian believes it is improper to have ethnicity-based articles focusing on a city, so he moved Chinese_Canadians_in_Greater Vancouver (I created this article with the intention of focusing on the Chinese community in Vancouver) to Chinese_Canadians_in_British_Columbia. My move request is here: Talk:Chinese_Canadians_in_British_Columbia. You are welcome to discuss whether it is proper to have an article focusing on a Chinese ethnic population of a particular city or metro area, or whether there should only be such areas focusing on prefectures/provinces/states.

For full disclosure, both I and the Wikipedian who moved the page are together currently involved in an editing dispute regarding Indo-Canadians in Greater Vancouver and Indo-Canadians in British Columbia over whether the articles should remain separate or be combined together. You may see the pages of this dispute here: WhisperToMe (talk) 04:43, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia_talk:Canadian_Wikipedians'_notice_board
 * Wikipedia_talk:Canadian_Wikipedians'_notice_board
 * Wikipedia_talk:Canadian_Wikipedians'_notice_board
 * Talk:Indo-Canadians
 * Talk:Indo-Canadians_in_Greater_Vancouver
 * No_original_research/Noticeboard
 * Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_British_Columbia
 * Wikipedia_talk:Identifying_reliable_sources
 * The user hads also removed the WikiProject China banner from this page. WhisperToMe (talk) 06:47, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Neither Vancouver nor BC are part of China, that's why.Skookum1 (talk) 07:11, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * WPCHINA covers the Chinese diaspora and ethnic Chinese, per prior discussions on scope here at this project. -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 06:12, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

This notification is contrary to guidelines and includes editorializing which falls under WP:POLLING; this is underscored by the last part of his post about the China template.Skookum1 (talk) 07:08, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Polling is not a substitute for discussion has to do with taking votes, not about notifying people about the discussion. This project has and does cover the Chinese diaspora which is why I notified this project. Even though Vancouver is not in China, the Chinese community still has connections with China. WhisperToMe (talk) 09:24, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * As replied to elsewhere, perhaps POLL is the correct WP-acronym for "seeking support in multiple forums by editorializing announcements of discussions", and editorializing here, as you have done is against guidelines....in fact I believe it's policythat you are violating, over and over and over; your whole multiple-discussion campaign is also AGF in origin, and highly presumptuous.Skookum1 (talk) 05:43, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Move request for T'ai chi ch'uan
I am proposing a move to the more common name of Tai chi. The discussion is here: Talk:T'ai_chi_ch'uan. Cheers, --Tom (LT) (talk) 22:13, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Portal name "Shenism" or "Chinese Folk Religion"
There is a discussion at Portal Talk Shenism as to whether the best name for the portal is "Shenism," as it is now and has been since March 2014, or "Chinese Folk Religion." ch (talk) 04:31, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Portal "Chinese folk religion" over "Confucianism" portal et al;?
Sorry to be bothersome, but I see another question which may be over my head. I may be wrong, but it seems to me looking at the beautiful new portal "Portal: Chinese folk religion" that it is the general heading, under which the other Chinese religions are listed in parentheses: "Portal:Confucianism," "Portal:Falun Gong," "Portal:Taoism" -- which seems to imply that these are subvarieties of Chinese folk religion, just as "Christianity" and Islam are followed by parenthetical "in China" for the Portal:Christianity in China portal etc.

Shouldn't there be a "Chinese religion" portal to subsume "Chinese folk religion" and the portals that are now listed under it? Or am I missing something? Or would it just be too much work?

Are there just too many portals?

Cheers in any case. ch (talk) 22:41, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Chinese hamburger chains in Africa and Myanmar?
I found a Blog entry which says that two Chinese burger chains, LEM (乐而美) and KDS (快乐星）, are opening stores in Myanmar, South Africa, and other African countries: http://minimeinsights.blogspot.com/2014/04/chinese-chicken-burger-chains-taking-on.html

Of course this isn't an RS, but it would be an interesting thing to research. If we can find reliable sources we can start articles on LEM and KDS in English and Chinese. Perhaps also in African languages and/or Burmese too... WhisperToMe (talk) 16:43, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

CN¥ vs RMB
There is a discussion at Template talk:CNY about whether the template should display '¥100' or 'RMB 100'. Please feel free to discuss it there.  Stepho  talk 13:17, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Discussion: Wuism or Chinese shamanism or Shamanism in China
There is a proposal at Talk:Wuism to move Wuism to Chinese shamanism or Shamanism in China. ch (talk) 06:41, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The page has been renamed to Chinese shamanism -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 06:08, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Pakapoo
Anyone can figure out what the original Chinese text for Pakapoo is? That certainly isn't pinyin, peh-oe-ji or jyutping, but I get the feeling that it's dialectal (probably Cantonese, Teochew, or Hokkien). -- benlisquare T•C•E 10:33, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I think it's 白鴿票, which in some dialect or other is likely to be pronounced "Pakapoo". Philg88 ♦talk 10:51, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Wow, that was fast. Thanks! -- benlisquare T•C•E 11:13, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

RFC on Gojoseon about the founding legends
Feel free to discuss it at its talkpage. --Cold Season (talk) 01:51, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Draft:Yang Yanbao
Dear China experts: This AfC submission could use an assessment by someone who can evaluate the references, which are not in English. &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 16:20, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Hey, long time no see! I'll take a look and leave any comments on the draft. Best, Philg88 ♦talk 16:50, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * ✅ Certainly notable so moved to main space. A bit more work needed, which I will do tomorrow. Philg88 ♦talk 17:38, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I hear that people in China do not want to read, nor can read, articles at English Wikipedia
Please see Talk:Typhoon Hagupit (2014).

Thank you. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:47, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

. I'm sorry. It was not fair of me to post here. Only part of the reason for posting here was to get project members to speak up and say that people in China read English Wikipedia articles. But, part of the reason was that I was annoyed at the statement and wanted to draw attention to it. I am sorry. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 15:59, 8 December 2014 (UTC)