Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indonesia/Archive 5

More nl.wiki articles brought over
Here are a few more articles brought over from the Dutch wiki. In some cases for the sake of brevity I just g-translated the ledes and and put an "expand from Dutch" tag on the stub. I also formed a few new categories:


 * Mimika Expedition‎
 * North New Guinea Expedition‎
 * Etna Expedition‎
 * Category:Forts in Indonesia‎ several pre-existing applicable articles and developed tree
 * Category:History of New Guinea
 * Fort Du Bus‎
 * Central New Guinea Expedition‎
 * Boven-Digoel (penal colony)‎
 * Carstensz Expedition‎
 * Indian Committee for Scientific Investigations‎
 * Society for the Promotion of the Physical Exploration of the Dutch Colonies‎ <-- not sure this is the best English title

MatthewVanitas (talk) 22:45, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for letting us know - it is appreciated SatuSuro 03:55, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Asia template
The Indonesia project may be interested in this. Why Yogya, Jakarta and Aceh are treated as entities separate from Indonesia in the template evades me. Note that this template appears on thousands of articles. WHo'd like to start the Military of Yogyakarta article as red-linked here? --Merbabu (talk) 08:42, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe it's because of the somewhat autonomous status of the Daerah Khusus Ibukota and Daerah Istimewa. Papua and West Papua are also listed. Military history of Yogyakarta should either redirect to Military history of Indonesia or Military history of the Dutch East Indies. Arsonal (talk) 16:08, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The Asia template family should have never been allowed to exist - it is a travesty - Mil hist of DEI and Indonesia as spearate arts / categories sounds like a good idead SatuSuro 11:23, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

?? So what use is that to anyone - it is a figment of someones fertile imagination - it does not exist in any other form of reality, since when do qatar and philippines have anything in common other than this template? SatuSuro 07:09, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

GA reassessment of Indonesian National Revolution
I have conducted a reassessment of the above article as part of the GA Sweeps process. I have found some concerns which you can see at Talk:Indonesian National Revolution/GA1. I have placed the article on hold whilst these are fixed. Thanks. Jezhotwells (talk) 18:45, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Outline of Indonesia
There's a bit of redirecting and un-redirecting going on with this page. I tend to agree with those trying to redirect it - it's redundant to the main article, but perhaps I don't agree with the process of redirecting instead of afd. However, I don't think afd will succeed. Would be happy to hear the thoughts of others. cheers --Merbabu (talk) 11:03, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Big problem is that outlines were made for all countries regardless of whether they had pre-existing lists of their own - the original project list has not been updated (or pruned of unnecessary red links) for about 1 years if I remember well.


 * Neither list is adequate or sufficient for a project like the Indonesian list (The Outline list had headings that there were never articles for in the project history) - a merge would have been far more sensible than for either to get a delete - its a really many hours issue for a dedicated team or obsessed editor to get either of the lists to correlate properly to the existing category tree to adequately catch the range of the articles in the indonesian project -


 * Please discuss here before reverting or redirecting again SatuSuro 14:24, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I would prefer to keep it. I agree that it takes time to develop, but it doesn't mean that it needs to be deleted or merged just because it's not used extensively. Otherwise we'll have the same issue we did as with the portal. I am a structurist after all. Arsonal (talk) 18:09, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


 * As this article issue is part of a much larger cross wiki interpresonal stoush between Transhumanist and Verbal - I see no reason why the Indonesian project has to be a pawn in their particular issues - I personally consider the matter closed and left as it is - as the Indonesian project will not benefit from editors issues like these being projected onto this project. They should have resolved their issues with due process well away from article space a long time ago - as they have not used due process - I see no reason why this project need be involved SatuSuro 01:33, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Outline of Indonesia
1 General reference 2 Geography of Indonesia 2.1 Environment of Indonesia 2.1.1 Natural geographic features of Indonesia

2.2 Regions of Indonesia 2.2.1 Ecoregions of Indonesia 2.2.2 Administrative divisions of Indonesia 2.2.2.1 Provinces of Indonesia 2.2.2.2 Regencies of Indonesia 2.2.2.3 Cities of Indonesia

2.3 Demography of Indonesia

3 Government and politics of Indonesia 3.1 Branches of the government of Indonesia 3.1.1 Executive branch of the government of Indonesia 3.1.2 Legislative branch of the government of Indonesia 3.1.3 Judicial branch of the government of Indonesia

3.2 Foreign relations of Indonesia 3.2.1 International organization membership

3.3 Law and order in Indonesia 3.4 Military of Indonesia 3.5 Local government in Indonesia

4 History of Indonesia 4.1 By field 4.2 By period 4.2.1 Early kingdoms 4.2.2 The rise of Muslim states 4.2.3 European colonialism 4.2.4 The emergence of Indonesia 4.2.5 Independent Indonesia

5 Culture of Indonesia 5.1 Art in Indonesia 5.2 Sports in Indonesia

6 Economy of Indonesia 7 Education in Indonesia 8 Infrastructure of Indonesia 9 See also 10 References 11 External links

List of Indonesia related topics
1 Indonesia 2 Cities in Indonesia 2.1 Lists 2.2 Cities 2.3 Jakarta 2.3.1 Disturbances and disasters 2.3.2 Lists 2.3.3 Areas of Jakarta 2.3.3.1 Subdistricts of Jakarta

2.3.4 Buildings and structures in Jakarta 2.3.5 Transport in Jakarta

3 Communications in Indonesia 3.1 Mobile phone companies of Indonesia

4 Indonesian culture 4.1 Indonesian architecture 4.1.1 Traditional architecture 4.1.2 Buildings and structures in Indonesia 4.1.2.1 Buildings and structures in Jakarta 4.1.2.2 Shopping malls in Jakarta 4.1.2.3 Palaces in Indonesia 4.1.2.4 Prisons in Indonesia 4.1.2.5 Shopping malls in Indonesia 4.1.2.6 Towers in Indonesia

4.1.3 Architects

4.2 Indonesian art 4.2.1 Indonesian artists 4.2.1.1 Indonesian painters 4.2.1.2 Indonesian photographers

4.3 Balinese mythology 4.4 Cinema of Indonesia 4.4.1 Indonesian film directors 4.4.2 Indonesian films 4.4.3 Indonesian actors 4.4.4 Indonesian comedians

4.5 Indonesian clothing 4.6 Indonesian cuisine 4.7 Dances of Indonesia 4.8 Indonesian folklore 4.9 Languages of Indonesia 4.9.1 Indonesian language

4.10 Libraries in Indonesia 4.11 Indonesian encyclopedias 4.12 Indonesian literature 4.12.1 Old Sundanese Literature 4.12.2 Old Javanese Literature 4.12.3 Kakawin 4.12.4 Malay literature 4.12.5 Indonesian writers

4.13 Malay culture 4.14 Museums in Indonesia 4.15 Indonesian music 4.16 Music of... 4.16.1 Music composers 4.16.2 Music styles 4.16.3 Indonesian musical groups 4.16.4 Indonesian albums 4.16.4.1 Peterpan albums

4.16.5 Indonesian musicians

5 Economy of Indonesia 5.1 Indonesian businesspeople 5.2 Companies of Indonesia 5.2.1 Banks of Indonesia

5.3 Mines in Indonesia 5.4 Ports and harbours of Indonesia 5.5 Trade unions of Indonesia

6 Education in Indonesia 6.1 Schools in Indonesia 6.2 Universities and colleges in Indonesia

7 Environment of Indonesia 7.1 Natural history of Indonesia

8 Geography of Indonesia 8.1 Bays of Indonesia 8.2 Beaches of Indonesia 8.3 Headlands of Indonesia 8.4 Islands of Indonesia 8.4.1 Bali 8.4.1.1 Balinese language

9 Geology of Indonesia 9.1 Volcanoes of Bali 9.2 Java 9.3 Sulawesi 9.4 Sumatra 9.5 Lakes of Indonesia 9.6 Maps of Indonesia 9.7 Metropolitan areas of Indonesia 9.8 Mountain ranges of Indonesia 9.9 Mountains of Indonesia 9.10 National parks of Indonesia 9.10.1 Alas Purwo National Park

9.11 Parks in Indonesia 9.12 Rivers of Indonesia 9.13 Straits of Indonesia 9.14 Subdivisions of Indonesia 9.14.1 Regencies of Indonesia 9.14.1.1 Counties of Indonesia

9.14.2 Subdistricts of Indonesia

9.15 Towns in Indonesia 9.16 Volcanoes of Indonesia 9.16.1 Volcanic calderas of Indonesia 9.16.2 Volcanoes of Halmahera 9.16.3 Volcanoes of Java 9.16.4 Volcanoes of the Lesser Sunda Islands 9.16.4.1 Volcanoes of Sumbawa

9.16.5 Volcanoes of Sumatra

9.17 Indonesia geography stubs

10 Government of Indonesia 10.1 Foreign relations of Indonesia 10.1.1 Indonesian diplomats 10.1.1.1 Ambassadors of Indonesia

10.2 Presidents of Indonesia 10.3 Military of Indonesia 10.3.1 Indonesian generals 10.3.2 Special forces of Indonesia

11 Health in Indonesia 11.1 Healthcare in Indonesia 11.1.1 Hospitals in Indonesia

12 History of Indonesia 12.1 Pre-colonial Indonesia (before 1602) 12.1.1 Srivijaya (3rd century–1400) 12.1.2 Melayu Kingdom (4th century-13 century) 12.1.3 Sailendra (8th Century-832) 12.1.4 Kingdom of Mataram (752-1045)

12.2 Kediri (1045–1221) 12.3 Singhasari (1222–1292) 12.4 Majapahit (1293–1500) 12.5 Sultanate of Demak 12.6 Mataram Sultanate (1500s to 1700s) 12.7 The Dutch in Indonesia (1602–1945) 12.7.1 Anglo-Dutch Java War (1810–1811) 12.7.2 Padri War (1821–1837) 12.7.3 Java War (1825–1830) 12.7.4 Aceh War (1873–1904) 12.7.5 National Revival (1899–1942) 12.7.6 Japanese Invasion (1941–1942)

12.8 Japanese Occupation (1942–1945) 12.9 Independence (1945-1950) 12.9.1 1950s

12.10 1960s 12.10.1 Overthrow of Sukarno (1965–1966)

12.11 New Order (1965–1998) 12.12 Revolution of 1998 (1996–1998) 12.13 21st century 12.13.1 Terrorism in Indonesia 12.13.2 2004 Indian Ocean Earthquake (2004–present)

12.14 Archaeological sites in Indonesia 12.15 Crime in Indonesia 12.15.1 Indonesian prisoners and detainees

12.16 Disasters in Indonesia 12.16.1 Earthquakes in Indonesia 12.16.1.1 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake

12.17 Elections in Indonesia 12.18 History of Java 12.19 History of Sumatra 12.20 Years in Indonesia

13 Indonesian law 13.1 Law enforcement in Indonesia

14 Indonesia-related lists 15 Indonesian media 15.1 Indonesian publishers 15.2 Newspapers published in Indonesia 15.3 Indonesian radio 15.3.1 Radio stations in Indonesia

15.4 Indonesian television 15.4.1 Television stations in Indonesia

15.5 Journalists

16 Indonesian people 16.1 Christian Indonesian Theologian 16.2 Indonesian people by ethnic or national origin 16.3 Indonesian monarchs 16.3.1 Sultans of Yogyakarta 16.3.2 Susuhuans of Surakarta

16.4 Indonesian people by occupation 16.4.1 Indonesian astronauts 16.4.2 Indonesian criminals 16.4.3 Indonesian singers 16.4.4 Indonesian television personalities

16.5 People of Indonesian descent 16.5.1 Indonesian Americans 16.5.2 Indonesian Australians 16.5.3 Indonesian Germans

16.6 Indonesian people stubs

17 Politics of Indonesia 17.1 Political parties in Indonesia 17.1.1 Youth wings of political parties in Indonesia

17.2 Indonesian politicians 17.2.1 Indonesian communists

18 Provinces of Indonesia 18.1 West Java

19 Religion in Indonesia 19.1 Javanese beliefs 19.2 Islam in Indonesia 19.2.1 Mosques in Indonesia

19.3 Places of worship in Indonesia 19.3.1 Buddhist temples in Indonesia 19.3.2 Hindu temples in Indonesia

19.4 Roman Catholic dioceses in Indonesia

20 Science and technology in Indonesia 20.1 Ships of Indonesia 20.1.1 Tall ships of Indonesia

21 Indonesian society 21.1 Ethnic groups in Indonesia 21.2 Organizations based in Indonesia 21.2.1 Youth organizations based in Indonesia 21.2.1.1 Scouting in Indonesia 21.2.1.2 Indonesian student societies

22 Sport in Indonesia 22.1 Football in Indonesia 22.1.1 Indonesian football clubs 22.1.2 Indonesian football competitions 22.1.3 Footballers in Indonesia by club 22.1.3.1 Semen Padang F.C. players

22.1.4 Indonesian footballers 22.1.5 Football venues in Indonesia

22.2 Golf in Indonesia 22.2.1 Golf tournaments in Indonesia

22.3 Indonesia at the Olympics 22.3.1 Olympic competitors for Indonesia

22.4 Sports governing bodies in Indonesia 22.5 Indonesian sportspeople 22.5.1 Indonesian archers 22.5.2 Indonesian badminton players 22.5.3 Indonesian boxers 22.5.4 Indonesian chess players 22.5.5 Indonesian poker players 22.5.6 Indonesian racecar drivers 22.5.7 Indonesian tennis players 22.5.8 Indonesian weightlifters

22.6 Sports venues in Indonesia

23 Tourism in Indonesia 23.1 Tourism Guide Books 23.2 Airlines of Indonesia 23.3 Airports in Indonesia 23.4 Visitor attractions in Indonesia 23.4.1 Gardens in Indonesia 23.4.1.1 Botanical gardens in Indonesia

23.4.2 Surf breaks in Indonesia 23.4.3 Theme parks in Indonesia 23.4.4 World Heritage Sites in Indonesia 23.4.5 Zoos in Indonesia

24 Transport in Indonesia 24.1 Bridges in Indonesia 24.2 Transport in Indonesia by city 24.3 Rail transport in Indonesia 24.3.1 Railway stations in Indonesia

24.4 Roads in Indonesia 24.5 Water transport in Indonesia

25 Indonesia stubs 26 See also

Politics of Indonesia
I have recently noticed that on pages using the "Politics of Indonesia" template, such as Politics of Indonesia and Cabinet of Indonesia, there is a huge blank area at the top of the page, with the article only starting after the template. This is true for Firefox and IE, and is independent of font size. It is not the case for other articles using templates based on the "politbox" template such as Politics of Canada (or for articles using the "History of Indonesia" template). Does anybody know enough about Wiki Markup Language to fix it, because it looks silly. Davidelit (Talk) 15:29, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed. The template clear was causing it. Please see the template page for its proper usage. Arsonal (talk) 17:55, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

National Parks of Indonesia
I've been doing some work in the past 6 months on National parks of Indonesia articles (16 new articles/stubs, article expansions, locator maps, navbar, 5½ DYKs), and would much appreciate independent assessment of all articles in this category in terms of WikiProject importance and quality. This would help define future priorities for bringing some to GA/FA status. Many thanks. Elekhh (talk) 01:24, 28 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Good work - a lot will need to be done for some of the stubs! SatuSuro 00:27, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Certainly so. That's why I am offering the Environmental Barnstar for significant contributions as outlined on the reward board. Elekhh (talk) 23:32, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Nikoi Island, Indonesia
This article has been prodded. Maurreen (talk) 06:38, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

For Indonesia which has an amazing number of admin cetagories
Oh sleeping giant of Indonesian noticeboards - something to stir you all with enthusiasm no doubt:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_March_14#Cities.2C_towns_and_villages

SatuSuro 02:20, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Unreferenced living people articles bot
Okip  00:45, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

The Dream article
The sort of list that every project dreams of having - extensive embedded ext links, red links all carefully structured so as to confound this projects usual practice of questioning the processes of lists that have more WP:NOT criteria than leopards have spots:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Indonesia

any thoughts? It is neither Afd or keep - but what the hell - maybe we need the remaining active editors to comment? SatuSuro 13:30, 20 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Some of those deserve articles, better create those, then easier to prune the rest. Sumbuddi (talk) 14:07, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Suharto
I've listed this for a peer review. Just thought you would all like to know. :-) --Merbabu (talk) 14:19, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * As long as it is not british peers in the parliamentary sense - they (the Brits) used to sell him hi tech equipment for suppressing his own people SatuSuro 14:27, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Pageview stats
After a recent request, I added WikiProject Indonesia to the list of projects to compile monthly pageview stats for. The data is the same used by http://stats.grok.se/en/ but the program is different, and includes the aggregate views from all redirects to each page. The stats are at WikiProject Indonesia/Popular pages.

The page will be updated monthly with new data. The edits aren't marked as bot edits, so they will show up in watchlists. You can view more results, request a new project be added to the list, or request a configuration change for this project using the toolserver tool. If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know. Thanks! Mr.Z-man 02:39, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Page move for Western New Guinea?
Discussion is > here < --Merbabu (talk) 23:54, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Valued pictures candidates
Two historic images of Bandung from the Tropenmuseum collection have been nominated as Valued Picture Candidates. Feedback regarding the encylopaedic value of these images according to the Valued picture criteria can be provided here. --Elekhh (talk) 03:36, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Project Page
As the Indonesian project has items on its page that were 3 to 2 years old, I have taken the perogative to remove items that have been sitting there - including items placed by banned users. It is very close to a dormant project - due to the lack of regular editors - and lack of activity beyond a very few editors, please - if you can think of anything to either encourage regular help at this project or elicit help with project management - please leave your ideas here. Thanks SatuSuro 12:20, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Is good to see some improvement here. The same way the Portal was pretty abandoned, and consequently lost its Featured status about a year ago. Over the last 9 months I managed to "revive" WikiProject Architecture from almost no activity. I think keeping the page tidy and up to date is a key element, but also constantly recruiting new (and fresh) members is important. The number of articles taged as part of this WikiProject is relatively low, and from those with a tag a third are not assessed. I see a lot of potential in that area. --Elekhh (talk) 21:06, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Non notable item
Someone with skill has created the astonishing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:2010_SMA_Negeri_1_Wringinanom_Events - bit like the East Bondi tram, or West Rottnest railway - notability out there in other words - will leave it open for view before suggesting deletion of category and related article SatuSuro 00:16, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Straight-to-the-point deletion candidate for me. Pageant is limited to a local level. Arsonal (talk) 18:23, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons
The WikiProject Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons (UBLPs) aims to reduce the number of unreferenced biographical articles to under 30,000 by June 1, primarily by enabling WikiProjects to easily identify UBLP articles in their project's scope. There were over 52,000 unreferenced BLPs in January 2010 and this has been reduced to 32,665 as of May 16. A bot is now running daily to compile a list of all articles that are in both Category:All unreferenced BLPs and have been tagged by a WikiProject. Note that the bot does NOT place unreferenced tags or assign articles to projects - this has been done by others previously - it just compiles a list.

Your Project's list can be found at WikiProject Indonesia/Unreferenced BLPs. As of May 17 you have approximately 58 articles to be referenced, a 3.3% reduction from last week. The list of all other WikiProject UBLPs can be found at WikiProject Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons/WikiProjects.

Your assistance in reviewing and referencing these articles is greatly appreciated. If you have any questions, please don't hestitate to ask either at WT:URBLP or at my talk page. Thanks, The-Pope (talk) 17:30, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Notice: Chinese Indonesian rewrite project
Good day! This message is being cross-posted on WikiProjects which consider the article on Chinese Indonesians of moderately high importance. Earlier this year, I began a project to rewrite the article because there are glaring issues currently with the article that cannot be corrected with just a simple edit. The difficulty of this subject can be glimpsed at an archive of the article's talk page. I believe that I now have the sources necessary to complete the rest of my rewrite and am seeking help from other contributors in the following ways:


 * Review of available media: Determine photos, maps, graphics, etc. that will significantly contribute to the article. The recent donation from the Royal Tropical Institute has greatly increased the amount of material to work with.
 * Review of infobox: Determine whether it should include Indonesian, Chinese (and perhaps Dutch) equivalent names. Determine the appropriate image(s), with the option of selecting only one generic image or several notable figures. Determine how the population figure should be described, given the issues surrounding "accurate numbers".
 * Review of related material: Determine which related articles, external links, material in other projects (Commons, WikiSource, etc.), and portals should be included.

Though I do appreciate offers to help me in writing the article, I hope that you will find another way in which you can contribute at the moment. This is in the interest of avoiding conflict and hasten the writing process. Of course, in keeping with the policy on ownership, the article will be fully open to contribution once it has reached a mainspace-worthy version.

Please direct all comments regarding the project the special discussion page I have created. For other comments not directly related to the project, please use my talk page. Thank you. Arsonal (talk) 20:54, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Dysfunctional link
As I have had too much involvement in trying to make it not being a classic candidate of an example of WP:NOT

could some one please review the current state of List_of_television_stations_in_Indonesia - my belief is it is a monster in need of either pruning or reducing in size or perhaps other issues as well. Any help would be appreciated SatuSuro 11:16, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It's probably worth trimming the list of cable channels received and leave it to mention the service providers only. Otherwise, I don't see how this is any worse than other lists of stations. It could probably do with a bit more prose. For example, Television in the People's Republic of China. Arsonal (talk) 17:33, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Indonesia Portal
Anybody interested to revive the Portal:Indonesia? I could suggest quite a few good images, articles and news events... --Elekhh (talk) 01:37, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Considering the absurd attempt to delete it some time back (dumb) - this is the best suggestion I have seen at this noticeboard for a while - the answer yes - however portal architecture has some very odd bits to negotiate - we might need more than one person to fix new changes SatuSuro 14:03, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've been adding more images for the weekly rotation. We have a lot more quality images now than 2 years ago. Biography of the week is going to be tricky since I don't think we have that many quality biography articles. Arsonal (talk) 20:20, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Good to see some interest already, and thanks Arsonal for the images you already provided. I agree that we'll be able to select very nice pictures on a weekly basis while by biographies that would not be sustainable. There are two ways around it: (a) change from weekly to monthly frequency or (b) select a pool of articles which than are randomly displayed. The pool can be amended whenever needed. I also think a much stronger link with the WikiProject would be mutualy beneficial, in a similar way as some portals&wikiprojects are interlinked on the German, French or Spanish Wikipedias (example). Particularly portal content issues I think should be discussed here. How about redirecting some or all discussion from the Portal talk page to this page? --Elekhh (talk) 04:08, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Good ideas being putting forward here - please help anything that might lure or even encourage a new generation of editors prepared to assist or even comment if nothing else - here in the project - I am tired - very tired of seeing my sig predominately in this noticeboard archive - it would be great if we had new blood by any means - specially if the issus of maintaining this project are brought up - look at this: -

It is worth considering that regionally Indonesia has the largest article count but not the largest un-maintained or unassessed collection of the three.

Anything that can possibly incite any interest in the portal - then the project - and then possible involvement is to be encouraged!!! SatuSuro 05:03, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Interesting comparison indeed, although few will take pride of beating Malaysia :). Unfortunately I see most portals on English Wiki are strugling, I think in part because the main portal page has an outdated design which does not help the ca.200,000 readers per month navigate to their topic of interest. As a result there was a decline trend in the use of the main page portal in the last two years from ca. 250K to 150K readers/month, while the much smaller wikis with better structured main portals page like the French and German are currently having 200K+ visitors. --Elekhh (talk) 07:06, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Portal - Selected biography
Following the above discussion, to remove the last redlink, I've been bold and implemented option (b): a selected biography pool of articles which are now displayed randomly on the portal. The proposed selection criteria is: at least C-class quality rating and Mid-importance for WikiProject Indonesia. The pool should be expanded with articles which qualify under this criteria. I only found 9 articles to qualify and there is an apparent bias for politicians, so it would be good to have more quality biographies from the arts and sciences. Feedback welcome. --Elekhh (talk) 07:13, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I think there should be some exceptions to the rules. Some articles are underassessed, so what's more important is writing quality and its depth. For example, Kassian Cephas would be a good candidate for the portal, but I only assessed it as Start/Low (probably because I have somewhat high standards). Arsonal (talk) 17:20, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I was thinking that setting a minimum quality criteria might provide an incentive for editors to work on an improvement of articles from start to C-class. In terms of importance rating I would find it OK to make concessions for the purpose of having a broader coverage (i.e. for the above mentioned underrepresented professions). I think Cephas is a good candidate and you were a bit too harsh with yourself when assessing it as start-class. Is rated C-class now. --Elekhh (talk) 23:30, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * We'll need to find some articles other than Presidents or politicians as well. Biography articles in this project seems to be heavily biased towards politicians. Arsonal (talk) 22:44, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Added Chephas. Now there are 6 presidents and 4 non-presidents. Would need another 10 nominations of mostly non-politicians to have a broad range of biographies. --Elekhh (talk) 23:23, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * What do you guys think of Agnes Monica ?, rated C-class, mid-importance... --Elekhh (talk) 23:00, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * On prose alone, I would support it. Unfortunately, it suffers from several flaws. At a brief glance, I did not see any sources that meet WP:RS, and I'm not certain if the images meet the requirements for the license that is provided for them. I am weakly supporting her inclusion. I also wouldn't mind including Lolo Soetoro or Tan Malaka Arsonal (talk) 03:17, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Is this page needed
Is WikiProject Indonesia/Members/Member activities really needed? I just removed some users but aside from that it has only been edited on 3 occassions since May 2007. And it seems redundant when users can cite their interests next to their names on WikiProject Indonesia/Members. Perhaps it should be deleted? DiiCinta (talk) 17:28, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * One page seems sufficient to account for all members and their activities. I find the proposed simplification beneficial, so I support deletion per above argument. --Elekhh (talk) 23:06, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Clarify: When I stated the above I assumed that, (a) as ususal, there should be at least a week allowed for input from all participants, (b) upon consensus, content from the page proposed for deletion be moved to the Members page. --Elekhh (talk) 01:06, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I have reverted the change - this user has not made any attempt prior to this to communicate with the other members of the project and has been constantly deleting their talk page - as a new user I do not think such a process is valid yet - I would like to know what the agenda of a constantly deleting talk page as well as deleted user page. I think it would be beneficial to see more of what the user is up to before allowing or agreeing to spring cleaning with a vengeance.SatuSuro 00:35, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Most projects are encouraged to keep lists of users - however slight a contribution however long ago - as a means of being able to check on a project page rather than trawling through page histories - which can be quite time consuming - specially when user names are changed - as with some that were deleted- and also when some users are blocked or banned SatuSuro 10:45, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Photo request
Is there anyone in Jakarta who is able to take a good photo of the National Library of Indonesia on Jl. Salemba Raya? This article was surprisingly non-existent until I created it today. The current photo is from a cellphone and of poor quality. Arsonal (talk) 20:12, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

For some
This is what we have been battling for years in this project (in relation to what WP:NOT is about) -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_television_stations_in_Indonesia  - is it that we now give up that it exists like this? SatuSuro 00:34, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Reverted to 23 June revision without sortable tables. Looks like the IP created an account solely for this purpose. It might have hit the spam blocker for editing too much in a small amount of time. Arsonal (talk) 04:23, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Would not be suprised if its a reincarnation of a previous editor who focused on TV articles as being weekly viewing guide. Gnangarra 07:47, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Category:Project-Class Indonesia articles

Categories created by non-gnlish speaker
In a current attempt to cleanup new categories created in a flurry recently - I have come across quite a few that do not read well - I would be interested if anyone else agrees that they are not termed the way in normal english: -
 * North Sumatra culture for instance

Any comments on this would be appreciated - as we may have a few to change terms if there is consensus that the titles are not normal english SatuSuro 12:33, 18 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed. People from Batak ethnic groups stands out like a sore thumb. What's wrong with Bataks, or Batak people? Davidelit (Talk) 14:02, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Image request
The English Wikinews project has published an article about the new censorship of Internet sites displaying pornographic material, and we would like to illustrate it with a screenshot of what Internet users in Indonesia now see when they try and connect to such sites. You can contact me on my English Wikipedia or English Wikinews talkpages, or on the article page. As Wikinews does work to a deadline, unlike Wikipedia, a swift response would be highly appreciated. Regards Alexandr Dmitri (talk) 15:14, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I have forwarded your request to the Indonesian Wikipedia as they might be able to help you more there. — Arsonal (talk + contribs) — 21:24, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

European influence and ramifications prior to and at time of Portuguese and Dutch arrivals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Middle_Ages specifically states European context - but we have Borobudur http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABorobudur&action=historysubmit&diff=379003246&oldid=368008126 and surrounds popping up as a medieval site - any thoughts from fellow WP In editors on this tagging? SatuSuro 07:06, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I never heard of the term "middle ages" applied to Indonesian histories. I have on occasion heard of the word "classical" applied to certain periods and areas of Indonesia, but never Middle Ages. I'm happy to be correct, but is this a clumsy and out of context application of European/other historical concepts to Indonesia? --Merbabu (talk) 07:12, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Doesn't seem to make sense to me given that the Middle Ages article refers to European history and the Decline of the Roman Empire, neither of which are relevant to Borobudur. Davidelit (Talk) 07:55, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Concur with everyone. I usually hear something along the lines of classical kingdoms period. — Arsonal (talk + contribs) — 08:15, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Middle ages is a descriptive applied to period from the fall of the roman empire through until around the spanish inquisitions for areas that encompass Europe and some of the middle east and parts northern africa. This was then followed a period of european colonialism, of which much of the current indonesia, malaysia, and other SE asian countries were a part of. I did ask the person that was tagging WPMA to cleanup they're erronous work rather than leave it to others Gnangarra 08:51, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

2010 census
Just a friendly notice. It appears that Badan Pusat Statistik (BPS) has begun rolling out census data. Current estimates stand at 237 million. You can get a more detailed look here (PDF). Stay tuned for more comprehensive data next July! — Arsonal (talk + contribs) — 09:11, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Endless onslaught of Football BLP stubs
There is at present a fairly continual addition of a large number of football player stubs being added - that belong to the Indonesian project - they are ranging greatly in quality - and in most cases are also WP:BLP issue related incomplete stubs - there may well be a counter action - please keep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/Indonesia on your watch - as recent deletions have had no regular WP Indonesia project members making any opinions there - cheers SatuSuro 11:12, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Jalak Harupat Stadium
There are two articles with similar names: Si Jalak Harupat Stadium & Jalak Harupat Soreang Stadium. It seems like they're both the same stadium. If so, one of them should be deleted. And I would also like to request a photo of the stadium as well. Obviously for the article itself but also to put in the 2010 AFF Suzuki Cup article. Banana Fingers (talk) 17:36, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Transport in Indonesia - Category rename to meet other Asian countries
Maybe you like to vote at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_September_9 TruckCard (talk) 01:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)


 * It would be good to see some regular Indonesian project editors add their comment there SatuSuro 10:51, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Pilih Bahasa
On http://www.mandalaair.com/

I found "Bahasa" and "Pilih Bahasa" as options. What is Pilih Bahasa? WhisperToMe (talk) 09:51, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

It could be intrepreted as chosen language - or language of choice - but hey there are other native speakers around - they will be here a bit later.... SatuSuro 11:26, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Alrighty - I look forward to what they say :) WhisperToMe (talk) 15:01, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * "pilih bahasa" means "choose language". Regards Davidelit (Talk) 15:35, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. I thought it was some third language I had never heard of. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:36, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Central_Jakarta
Would someone mind looking at Talk:Central_Jakarta? It's about listing corporations based in the municipality of Central Jakarta. In the meantime I'll see what I can find in English. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:01, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, now the development of the Economy section is progressing. If anyone knows Bahasa, though, it would be helpful :) WhisperToMe (talk) 15:26, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Discussion: Walkopedia
Hi all,

In my first time editing Wiki I think I may have stepped on a few toes, so apologies. I would like to propose a section on walking in Torajaland (therefore the Tana Toraja Regency page?): it is thus far overlooked, and has some really beautiful,unknown(!) walks!. I may have unintentionally edited in a way that caused it to be deleted a week or so ago.

Where do you suggest a good starting point would be (understood, if you would prefer it left alone)? For your information walkopedia (a reference to which I edited into the article) is not a commercial website, selling anything, but an walking-centric information store much like wiki. My hope was that other similar sites woould follow suit, so that the walker has all the information they could want at their fingertips...

Suggest as an external link as opposed to section in the article's main body? Alternatively I could post on this forum another version of some wording for you to review?

Best,

Billjohnsonwalko (talk) 13:36, 17 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I think you would be better at wikitravel . Walking information is generally not what you would expect to find in an encylopedia, except where walking is the thing the place is known for. Which is not true in the case of Tana Toraja. Also there is a general antipathy to third-party websites on Wikipedia, it's not a place to add third-party links except where they are necessary for sourcing or if it's an official website. Sumbuddi (talk) 15:05, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Indonesia articles have been selected for the Wikipedia 0.8 release
Version 0.8 is a collection of Wikipedia articles selected by the Wikipedia 1.0 team for offline release on USB key, DVD and mobile phone. Articles were selected based on their assessed importance and quality, then article versions (revisionIDs) were chosen for trustworthiness (freedom from vandalism) using an adaptation of the WikiTrust algorithm.

We would like to ask you to review the Indonesia articles and revisionIDs we have chosen. Selected articles are marked with a diamond symbol (&diams;) to the right of each article, and this symbol links to the selected version of each article. If you believe we have included or excluded articles inappropriately, please contact us at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8 with the details. You may wish to look at your WikiProject's articles with cleanup tags and try to improve any that need work; if you do, please give us the new revisionID at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8. We would like to complete this consultation period by midnight UTC on Monday, October 11th.

We have greatly streamlined the process since the Version 0.7 release, so we aim to have the collection ready for distribution by the end of October, 2010. As a result, we are planning to distribute the collection much more widely, while continuing to work with groups such as One Laptop per Child and Wikipedia for Schools to extend the reach of Wikipedia worldwide. Please help us, with your WikiProject's feedback!

For the Wikipedia 1.0 editorial team, SelectionBot 23:10, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Circumventing general policy?
In a series of articles relating to Liga Indonesia - the lead sentence makes no pretence to adequate WP:MOS guidelines about WP:LEAD and simply state: -

Statistics of Liga Indonesia in season...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996–97_Liga_Indonesia_Premier_Division - is a classic example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Liga_Indonesia_Premier_Division - so basically wikipedia is holding close to mute/unleaded lists for the soccer enthusiast?

I wonder if the Wp Indonesia project is really a soccer scoreboard or not? Not a word of text - the average outsider - non Indonesian soccer enthusiast cannot see anything in the lead para or sentence about what on earth it is? SatuSuro 13:41, 26 September 2010 (UTC)


 * it's not been created by/for wp indonesia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nameless_User likes to create these articles every country in the world it seems. If there's a problem, it's certainly not specific to indonesia..... Sumbuddi (talk) 22:33, 26 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for checking - for these articles to remain, and be legitimate - they need reasonable context creating lead paragraphs otherwise they are as meaningless as what they appear - just tables of figures - SatuSuro 02:26, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

English names for Indonesian football clubs
There have been a long debate about English names for football clubs in Indonesia, as you can see in my user talk page. This issue is actually interesting and might be important for the sake of consistency. As you know, there have been common improper acronym-ization of Indonesian football clubs, for instance: the full name of Jakarta-based club is Persatuan Sepakbola Indonesia Jakarta, which is often acronym-ized as Persija. Both names are fine, however, media and even the Football Association of Indonesia often carelessly transform the name into Persija Jakarta, which is improper considering that the city name "Jakarta" is used twice.

An alternative proper abbreviation is suggested for Persatuan Sepak Bola Indonesia Jakarta, such as: PSI Jakarta, PS Jakarta or even Jakarta FC (using the term football club (FC) as English-literation of persatuan sepakbola). However, the last altnerative (Jakarta FC) seems to be unnecessary, as name prefix for sport clubs may use the original language, as in AS Roma (Italian club) or TSV 1860 Muenchen (German club).

Please let me know if you have suggestion or proper references about this, since now many articles related to Indoensian football are inconsistent in names. Thanks! Guybrush1979 (talk) 21:52, 28 September 2010 (UTC)


 * okay, i chosen that Persatuan Sepakbola Indonesia Jakarta will be abbreviated to PSI Jakarta. but, I want to mention it as Jakarta FC. because, Jakarta FC is English name of Persatuan Sepakbola Indonesia Jakarta. in Wikipedia, Jakarta FC can be used as title, then the lead sentence of Jakarta FC page will explain "Jakarta Football Club (Bahasa Indonesia:Persatuan Sepakbola Indonesia Jakarta) commonly known as Persija.


 * because the club based on Jakarta, so naming Jakarta FC is not matter. though, PSI Jakarta sounds like originally, like Puteri Indonesia in English Wikipedia.


 * sometimes, original name may be changed to English for searching easier, such as Kuwait clubs, Al-Kuwait Sporting Club. the original name is in Arabic. in first sentence of page, arabic name is mentioned.


 * in Indonesia, people said Persija Jakarta, because of using daily. maybe, PSSI don't care about it. if PSSI known it, they should tell press to write the name completely, Persatuan Sepakbola Indonesia Jakarta, or abbreviated correctly as PSI Jakarta, so city name is showed. people doesn't like Persija, because the abbreviation closed the city name. i suggest, "Jakarta" is showed but not with Persija. PSI Jakarta is better than Persija Jakarta. or write completely, Persatuan Sepakbola Indonesia Jakarta. or, if the club want to declare Persija as name (not abbreviation), club can named Persija Jakarta, like Persisam Putra Samarinda. in Persisam Putra Samarinda, Persisam can not be expressed, because Persisam Putra Samarinda is merger club between Persatuan Sepakbola Indonesia Samarinda and Putra Samarinda. the name can not be writen Persatuan Sepakbola Indonesia Samarinda Putra Samarinda. Persisam is the name, not abbreviation.


 * with Persija, PSM, Persib etc are abbreviation, so the name should not be followed city name. PSM should be abbreviated to PS Makassar, while Persib might be abbreviated to PSI Bandung, not Persib Bandung.


 * incorrect abbreviation is PSSI's responsibility. PSSI should soon suggest to media to write correctly the Indonesian football clubs. media will be update the league table in newspaper, so the name must be responsible. say Persatuan Sepakbola Arema or PS Arema!


 * say Persatuan Sepakbola Indonesia Jakarta or PSI Jakarta!
 * say Persatuan Sepakbola Indonesia Balikpapan or PSI Balikpapan!
 * say Persatuan Sepakbola Indonesia Jakarta Utara or PSI Jakarta Utara!
 * say Persatuan Sepakbola Surabaya or PS Surabaya!


 * don't say Persija Jakarta, Persiba Balikpapan, Persitara Jakarta Utara, or Persebaya Surabaya.


 * i think, recent officer of PSSI don't know much about football. you can see page Wikipedia of 2010-11 Indonesia Super League, section League Table. there are writen that ranking 1 will qualify to AFC Champions League. honestly, AFC is currently under review. AFC is evaluating domestic leagues of Asia. is Indonesian will representative the AFC Champions League in 2011? the announcement is expected November 2010. now, we don't know, will Ranking 1 qualify to AFC Champions League 2011 or not. no body care about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deyede (talk • contribs) 06:26, 29 September 2010 (UTC)


 * For Arema, it shouldn't be a problem, since they have already published their official name in English (with prefix/suffix FC): Arema FC or previously Arema Indonesia. But for other clubs, the prefix should stay as it is. Many non-English speaking countries clubs also do not need to translate the prefix into "FC".


 * In fact, acronym is actually fine. Therefore, calling the club as only Persib is acceptable. This is mentioned in the ISL page in FIFA.com http://www.fifa.com/associations/association=idn/nationalleague/standings.html. They use only Persib, PSM without city name. The only problem is that this kind of acronym may lead to ambiguity, as in Persiba (in Balikpapan) and Persiba (in Bantul).


 * Another thing, city name can be translated into English but can also stay as it is. Indonesian city name should be just the same in English (unlike many German/Italian name, which have different names in English, such as: Roma->Rome, Milano->Milan, Köln->Cologne, München->Munich). Clubs with ONLY CITY NAME in their name shouldn't be translated to English since it's part of the name, as in AS Roma (not AS Rome or FC Rome), FC Torino (not FC Turin), FC Köln (not FC Cologne). However if the name involves other words, the city name can be in English, as in FC Bayern Munich (originally FC Bayern München), Internazionale Milan (originally Internazionale Milano), and so on.


 * Interestingly, some Indonesian clubs have names like: Persatuan Sepak Bola Kabupaten Bandung (Persikab), Persatuan Sepak Bola Medan dan Sekitarnya (PSMS), Persatuan Sepak Bola Pekanbaru dan Sekitarnya (PSPS). How to translate it? and I think it should be translated.


 * About the AFC review, I think they did it last year for this season. So the upcoming assessment will be for the competition next year. Shouldn't be like that? Guybrush1979 (talk) 10:03, 29 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I did little observation on football club names and found similar cases as in Indonesia:


 * AZ (a Dutch football club) is often redundantly called as AZ Alkmaar in which AZ itself is an abbr. of Alkmaar Zaanstreek. In its EN WP page, it's just titled as AZ.
 * MVV (another Dutsch football club) is an abbr of Maastrichtse Voetbal Vereniging. However, since the abbreviation 'MVV' is more popular/common/officially-recognized, they don't changed it into Maastrichtse VV for example, or even Maastrichtse FC. In many cases, people also often put redundant name as MVV Maastricht. Seems that it's similar case with names like PSM, PSPS?
 * A club from Finland is known as HJK Helsinki. The abbr. HJK is actually Helsingin Jalkapalloklubi. HJK Helsinski is also a redundant naming, since the word Jalkapalloklubi means football club in Finnish language.
 * Other observation, (probably) all clubs in Malaysia have original names in Malay language. For example: Persatuan Bolasepak Selangor. However, they have official English name as Football Association of Selangor or Selangor FA. Either in Malay or English, they both use Selangor FA to mention the club.
 * Guybrush1979 (talk) 13:46, 29 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I just noticed that changing the way Indonesian clubs abbreviating/acronyming their name may be risky. For example: Indonesia has now both Persijatim (now Sriwijaya FC) and PS Jakarta Timur. In some news, I also read that PSIS (Semarang) will manage both Semarang FC and PSIS.
 * So any conclusion about this? since pages like Template:2010-11 in Indonesian football need to be consistent as others.
 * Guybrush1979 (talk) 09:34, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Medan
Hi, the second paragraph of the lead section in this article, Medan, is in slightly broken English, it seems to conflict with itself and is unsourced. It involves the mayors of the city and some corruption scandals in the last five or so years. Does anyone here know the relevant sources to confirm and describe more clearly what went on? I wonder also if a corruption scandal is appropriate in the lead of such an article. Is the city absolutely rampant with corruption? ~ R . T . G  14:36, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Batak (Indonesia)
Although there may be some undue weight to the cannabalism section and some confusion over words in the Indonesian langauges in the latter sections, this seems to be a Good Article. When you next review some articles you should review this one. Couldn't take a lot of work for GA. ~ R . T . G  15:55, 8 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Disagree. The preoccupation with cannibalism is pretty offensive, and the article is basically a mess. It mainly discusses Batak Toba and Karo, but Karo have a separate article, and there's little on the other Bataks. A separate Batak Toba article is clearly necessary, as noted in the talk page over four years ago.


 * There's lots on Christian Bataks, but not much on the Muslims, nor is it explained the geographical distribution and breakdown of the respective religions. Discussion of modern Hinduism is also basically absent.


 * There are six million+ Bataks, quite a few of them significant business and political figures, but this article could have been written 100 years ago, as there's nothing dealing with the modern Batak. Numerous cultural aspects are missing - Batak architecture is not really mentioned, music, which is extremely important and distinctive, ditto the significance of ulos and other traditional clothing - the earrings pictured are no longer used - culture has moved on - a picture of a modern Batak wedding, which is still distinctively Batak, but not frozen in 1925, would be useful.


 * The first task should be to sort out the mess of what is 'Batak' and what is speficically 'Toba', and therefore what does and doesn't belong in this article, this might be a starting point. Mr. Ginting speaks here also: Sumbuddi (talk) 20:03, 8 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Well I accept that as I really know nothing of the subject but I still say this is a good subject for Good Article and the building blocks are there. I found it interesting even if a lot of it focused on cannibalism. I read the whole thing except for the theories on creation and I don't often do that even on articles I am very interested in. It really made me wonder new about the origin of Indonesians... ~ R . T . G  02:07, 18 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Basically the problem is there are six distinct peoples covered but the bulk of the article (the 'traditional Batak religion' section) considers only one (the Toba) with a little of a second (the Karo). While it might be accurate of all, the text does nothing to convince me that it is so.
 * Second problem is Indonesia is basically an amalgamation of tribes glued together with a bunch nationalist propaganda, and 'Batak' are very much a people of the now, with their own (first!) languages and culture, and the article seems to be stuck in the past too much. It's not like an article about the Picts or something, where it should be a history, this is a living people. Sumbuddi (talk) 14:46, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion
The Indonesian soccer (football) additions to the Indonesian project now outweigh all other added items on the alex new article bot - I suggest that this project create and establish specific criteria to assist editors to understand why and how their machine like additions are within scope or not.

Is anyone prepared to assist with a policy (that will have to have bilingual text due to the limited english of some of the more enthusiastic editors) ??? We need something by which we can give guidelines -= as it is we get these amazing technicolour tables/lists with not a single WP:RS in sight.

I do not think that this project should be a free soccer table service - I do think some sanity needs to return to the incessant additions - with credible reliable sources - and a very clear sign that some items are simply not suitable on wp en SatuSuro 12:36, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Because the new articles are being created by non-native speakers with usage of Indonesian spelling of province names rather than the anglicised versions (Sumatera is repeated all the time), stadia as a plural of stadiums, and the lack of correct spelling in titles (lack of understanding of plurals etc), and the lack of identifying project tags makes the general maintenance of new soccer articles and blocks of multicoloured names and lists a somewhat tedious process. SatuSuro 00:02, 18 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Isn't this basically just one editor? User:Iha9c I suggest you speak to him to try and explain the relevant policies (sourcing, etc.) Sumbuddi (talk) 15:02, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Look at the talk page - never responded to or answered (many indonesians with poor english refuse to use talk) - also there have been over the last couple of months a number of IP's and short duration editors who also play with the lists and in most cases they all look like non-english speaking tinklers - viz my concern that it needs to be bilingual comments/policy. For a good example of the extent to which the situation gets to - see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_2010-11_Indonesia_Super_League_Top_Scorers#List_of_2010-11_Indonesia_Super_League_Top_Scorers   SatuSuro 03:01, 19 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I think this Indonesian football project need more efforts to fix the language issue. Not only those tables, even clubs' articles are mostly still poorly written. Well, my English is not the best, but still I could find so many errors. I will try to help you with this mess, also citation problems, for sure. Guybrush1979 (talk) 03:31, 19 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok there are actually a few of them:


 * Special:Contributions/Kacang_Mahal
 * Special:Contributions/Iha9c
 * Special:Contributions/111.95.114.88 http://toolserver.org/~chm/whois.php?ip=111.95.114.88 (plus some other IPs)
 * Special:Contributions/Sam Bio


 * Maybe some of them are socks? Not sure... Sumbuddi (talk) 12:29, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Going too far?

 * 1) Wildansyah
 * 2) Jules Basile Onambele
 * 3) Jacques Joel Tsimi
 * 4) Nyeck Nyobe
 * 5) David Pagbe
 * 6) Park Chan Young
 * 7) Kim Kang Hyun
 * 8) You Young Woo
 * 9) Samsul Arif

It is my belief that the one liner bios that are being generated daily from Jakarta (probably the Liga Office?) are neither WP:N or capable of sustaining issues of WP:RS or general relevance to Wikipedia - and the silent non talk editor is probably an employee of Liga Indonesia - just loading and either ignoring messages or wanrings and deletions and just carrying on as if nothing happens.

I suggest either a demand for a talk - and if so far not a squeak - then possible blocking for loading non notable one liner BLPS SatuSuro 03:53, 21 October 2010 (UTC)


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:ATHLETE - is a guideline that needs to be applied to the BLP oneliners with some veracity SatuSuro 05:37, 21 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Suggest you take it to WP:AN or similar, it's pretty dead here. Sumbuddi (talk) 21:19, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Non english titles for articles

 * 2010 Indonesia Women Football Tournament, List of 2010-11 Indonesia Super League Foreign Player

we now have some classics - that show little understanding of english usage - any suggestions of what to do? SatuSuro 15:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Status of National parks
For anybody interested, I created an overview of the current status of the 50 national parks of Indonesia articles here. The sortable table is a good tool to establish priorities for those who are interested to contribute. --Elekhh (talk) 06:51, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject cleanup listing
I have created together with Smallman12q a toolserver tool that shows a weekly-updated list of cleanup categories for WikiProjects, that can be used as a replacement for WolterBot and this WikiProject is among those that are already included (because it is a member of Category:WolterBot cleanup listing subscriptions). See the tool's wiki page, this project's listing in one big table or by categories and the index of WikiProjects. Svick (talk) 20:24, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

generic business hotels
is this really within scope? Hermes Palace Hotel Sumbuddi (talk) 03:39, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Jakarta Symphony Hall
Someone created Aula simfonia Jakarta here at the English Wikipedia in the Indonesian language, and someone else is trying to get it speedily deleted. If anyone is willing to translate it into English, that would be a good idea. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 15:40, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Issue
It is now time that with the almost incessant addition of one liner stubs about either soccer players or teams - that a well seasoned soccer editor from the football project needs to review the steady stream. As the editors appear to have limited if little english capacity (the creeping in of indonesian words or usage, or the minimum text one liner stubs with WP:ONESOURCE notably the liga indonesia website - and no corroborating WP:RS) - the Indonesian project is faced with something the average editor has neither the time or interest to glean the rubbish from the appropriate.

As the editors (who already have been identified above) never respond to the queries at their talk pages - and they simply keep adding their unsourced material - it really shows the lack of a reasonable policy or approach to be able to sort things out. I suggest that responses from others would be worth putting here - as I have more or less quit trying to cope with the issue.

So here it is - the project has been flooded with more or less pointless soccer info - most of it falling into WP:NOT territory - and the editors remain unchecked. Something has to be done SatuSuro 12:57, 17 November 2010 (UTC)


 * try an/i Sumbuddi (talk) 13:08, 17 November 2010 (UTC)


 * What it happening is that industrious IP numbers slave away at copying word for word from the Indonesian wikipedia articles -

for instance: -
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persija_Jakarta
 * http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persija_jakarta

what a complete waste of time and energy - on WP id - there is no policing or reversion of material on the grounds of lack of WP:N, WP:V or WP:RS - there is the replication the total article here in WP en - surely most of the articles in this project should be reduced in size and context to the actual verifiable material (which is very little) SatuSuro 13:16, 17 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I can't get too exxcited about it, but maybe try removing all unsourced content, then perhaps they can learn to provide sourcing etc. Sumbuddi (talk) 14:24, 17 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Nah I have no excitement whatsoever in any way - it is just going to pollute the project by the constant atrittion which they are applying - when you see the red link names in the articles - they might want to do more one liner unreffed BLPS for all of those as well! - anyways I have mentioned it - I have off wiki things to attend to SatuSuro 14:33, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Ideally - some editors prepared to work via http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Task_forces_and_sub-projects and have some effort at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Notability and a few others SatuSuro 16:02, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

indonesian-language editor(s)
See Sumbuddi (talk) 04:54, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Portal maintenance
Just wanted to drop a short note that I no longer will be able to regularly contribute to the maintenance of Portal:Indonesia in 2011, so if anybody is interested to keep it alive is welcome to contribute. Current maintenance tasks entail keeping the News section up to date, Picture of the week nominations, and Selected Article and DYK sections. The Selected biography section has been set up in the course of this year to random display one of a number of selections (see previous discussion above), so it does not need any maintenance, however the pool of articles could be expanded. An option would be to change the other sections to a similar system (now used by many portals) which would greatly reduce maintenance requirement.

As a background info for those not yet involved: Portal Indonesia has been set up in August 2006 and immediately promoted to Featured status. However, starting 2008 and throughout 2009 it hasn't been maintained and became increasingly outdated, and consequently lost its featured status. In 2010 some effort has been done to revive it, and at least eliminate the redlinks and outdated info. As a result the number of views started to increase again surpassing 3,000 per month and the page ranked top 500 of over 6,000 pages within the scope of the wikiproject. Its future is in your hands. --Elekhh (talk) 00:17, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Galungun festival in Bali
According to what several Balinese people told me, Galungan is not a holiday to celebrate the coming (and going) of Balinese gods to earth, but rather a visit by ancestors of the Balinese. Does anybody have a reference on this?Robert van der Hoff (talk) 03:02, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem with the article as it is written http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galungan - because the day falls on a day in the balinese calendar - it is focused on the calendrical sequence rather than any other aspects - it (the article) is also very close to being either WP:COPYVIO or WP:OR as it stands SatuSuro 03:12, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Where is this project going?
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indonesia_Super_League&action=historysubmit&diff=402153360&oldid=402072578

It seems fast towards one vast soccer table - where text and explanation go and are replaced by lists and tables. SatuSuro 23:04, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Another small issue
Indonesian villages Are not by any means notable simply because they exist (inherent notability (( ie if a village exists it deserves a stub?)) would see literally tens of thousands of pointless stubs) - two examples: -
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koor,_Indonesia
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batuan,_Bali

neither article actually has any inherent notability - as there is neither WP:RS or sufficient WP:V to verify anything that makes these localities any different from the tens of thousand other villages of Indonesia - some editors have been creating stubs for localities that seem to have no clear notability - any comment on this matter would be appreciated - SatuSuro 04:24, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I've tagged them for notability. If nothing is done soon, I suggest we AfD them. Davidelit (Talk) 04:31, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I didn't participate in either of the two examples above, but Batuan, Bali would seem to be notable if in fact it is the source of the adjective "batik". Gold mining at or near Koor could reasonably justify the article. Generally speaking, I expect to find a listing for any place, however so humble. The ten-thousand mentioned above reminds me of the slogan let a thousand flowers bloom. --Bejnar (talk) 04:45, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * In the case of the specific articles:

please - if you know of context that can justify the stubs - please add material (ie WP:RS for WP:V to save the stubs - it is simply beyond any one editor in this project to actually expand the untended articles beyond their impoverished state - as for the thousands of flowers - that association was not inferred or intended in any way - thats your memory or association! - for this project to assume:- Generally speaking, I expect to find a listing for any place, however so humble - in all WP: AGF and WP:CIVILITY - you really have to be kidding (maybe you dont understand WP:ABOUT or WP:NOT )- there is no practical functional reason why the Indonesian project should have the name of every village in the country on wikipedia, a clear misreading and understanding of what this project (Indonesia project or Wikipedia in general) is about - it is not a gazzetteer SatuSuro 04:59, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see any great claim to notability. But I don't see any harm either. I think it would be a waste of time to afd them. --Merbabu (talk) 06:16, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Look wider. For example, Wikipedia has 52328 pages under Category:Villages in Poland. It even has 14823 pages under Category:Geography of Antarctica. I think other parts of the editorial community are using different criteria from the ones you propose to apply to Indonesian Villages. Sincerely, Oguk (talk) 07:42, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * This is partly why I am a bit ambivalent to the question. I know Australia also has articles on even the smallest localities (as does Poland as you point out). But on the other hand, Indonesia is a much bigger country than most with a massive number of villages and I share SatuSuro's and Davidelit's concern about never finding reliable sources to say anything more than it's name and location. I think there's more work and angst in deleting, and they will keep coming back. I would never create these stubs, but on the other hand, do they do harm? --Merbabu (talk) 08:07, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I was reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Common_outcomes#Places which contains the observation: "Cities and villages are generally kept, regardless of size, as long as their existence is verified through a reliable source". Reliable sources would, I presume, include http://www.geonames.org/ Regards, Oguk (talk) 09:29, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Geonames is not a reliable secondary source in the sense of WP:RS - it does not indicate where or on what basis it compiles its data, and it's not even difficult to find non-existent places, places which do exist but not in its database, and straight out errors. Orderinchaos 02:54, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As confirmation that Geonames is not a WP:RS, it evidently picks up information from Wikipedia, including false information. Over two years ago, a hoax article about a non-existent Shropshire village called "Monvilla" was deleted at WP:Articles for deletion/Monvilla, but it is still there in Geonames, complete with the words of the hoax article. Geonames has got Bunaka too, an Indonesian hoax we have just deleted. To be fair, both those say in small print: "no records found in geonames database, showing wikipedia results", but someone using Geonames as a source, particularly in automatic or semi-automatic mode, might miss that; and the Wikipedia data for Monvilla is still there two years after we deleted it, and if we trusted Geonames could well be used as a source to reintroduce it. JohnCD (talk) 18:24, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The geonames database is a reliable source, so far as I can tell it is a dump from the nga gnis database. What you are talking about is the site, which can and does report other things, for which the source, that they provide, must be checked. --Bejnar (talk) 23:56, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Good luck in trying to delete these articles. I only started the major villages in Papua and Maluku. In fact I added more text to a few of them and sources like Galela and Tobelo. You gonna try delete does too?. They don't stand a chance of being deleted if they are verifiable settlements. Sorry. Satusaro if the regencies are a serious problem I suggest you highlight to me what exactly needs doing and for what provinces the sub stubs lie in. We both know that regencies should have decent articles.♦ Dr. Blofeld  10:52, 19 December 2010 (UTC) Koor, Indonesia is perfectly acceptable and by labelling my valid stubs as "pointless sub stubs" you really ought to read what wiki means. I adde dmore content and sources in five minutes flat.♦ Dr. Blofeld  11:22, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Point taken - a stub is started and nothing is really added to verify that - I did not start this discussion in relation to deleting anything - what I object to is finding stubs that have no inherent clues as to why they are started - as you have shown - they can be added to - there is never followup on this project unless something like this happens - (too few editors and very very little followup on the more outrageous errors) - so thank you for showing what you have started actually has menaing beyond what the original state of the stub reflected - I do think it is on the onus of the original editor to put even a single wp;rs or something to offer a potential to review the status of a stub - rather than have project members or others wondering why a particular one lined stub might exist SatuSuro 12:19, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Maybe the current status of Koor, Indonesia and a new article of mine on a Kecamatan, yes SatuSuro a Kecamatan!!! Sausapor are evidence that maybe more localised places in Indonesia are more notable than you might think. If we had an article on every Kecamatan on english wikipedia like Sausapor I doubt you'd be complaining. What we don't want is this. Indonesian, Vietnam, Burma, Cambodia and Laos are my area of focus anyway so I'll try to make my work on Indonesia ongoing and improve quality. But the biggest obstacle is time. I work on African topics, Latin American topics even expanding US/UK village and European architecture so there is only so much time I have to contribute to Indonesian articles. I really wish you would all follow my example and get writing instead of moaning... If we want quality then deleting every short/undeveloped article in sight is unlikely going to work as they are likely to be recreated equally as badly at some point. If we want quality we have to be prepared to research articles and spend the time writing. Otherwise don't complain about the lacking additions of others.♦ Dr. Blofeld  19:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

There's no reason why eventually we couldn't have a half decent article on every kelurahan of Indonesia if sources are apparent. Of course sourcing is the main obstacle but from what I've seen so far information can be gathered to start at least some of the sub districts as I've demonstrated with Sausapor, Bontobahari, Pitumpanua‎, Masamba and Larompong. Priority though is the regencies of Indonesia. There's no excuse for not having articles on them initially, they should be expanded/started asap. Thanks you've inspired me to generate tons of articles on Indonesian places...♦ Dr. Blofeld  22:45, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. (but would you mind not inserting little flags in the infoboxes per WP:MOSFLAG). cheers --Merbabu (talk) 23:50, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * PS – and of course, they should be inarguably verified by reliable sources *upon creation* even if they are only 1 sentence stubs. Otherwise, it just wastes everyone’s time and only supports case for afd. cheers --Merbabu (talk) 00:29, 20 December 2010 (UTC)


 * For anyone interested - the items at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG#Notability of Indonesian geography follow on from this thread SatuSuro 07:31, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Article alerts re-jigged
Has found this intriguing issue - I have never seen Times atlas used as a reason to delete an article that has existed for 3 years - please add your comments - those who have this on your watch: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunaka cheers SatuSuro 00:04, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * An (uncited) "winter" water temp of 15 degrees celsius and "summer" temp of 35 degrees sounds dubious to put it mildly. These are equatorial seas. The article's essentially an orphan with no references. The author is still active. What do they have to say? --Merbabu (talk) 00:20, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I doubt the water reaches either extreme. Even Perth's water rarely gets below 16°C, and we're temperate. On the other hand water warmer than 32, even in Indonesia, would be highly unexpected. Anything above 26 in open ocean tends to produce cyclones/hurricanes, and various references suggest that 32 is an upper limit in Indonesia. Orderinchaos 03:03, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I almost removed everything but the first sentence from that article as "uncited bollocks", but then realised that showing said uncited bollocks helps the case for deletion. Settled by the Balinese who remain the dominant population – yeah, right. Google shows nothing. That editor needs a serious talking to (indef block if it was up to me). --Merbabu (talk) 03:07, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

LOL @ "uncited bollocks". Yeah its a hoax, I've speedied it but no admin has deleted yet.♦ Dr. Blofeld  10:31, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I just deleted it Nick-D (talk) 10:44, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Kecamatan
I notice red link lists of kecamatan are appearing in regency (and other?) articles. Looks good. Could we get the sources cited? It is presumably coming from somewhere and not the editor's head. many thanks --Merbabu (talk) 10:43, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Western New Guinea
Western New Guinea redirects to West Papua (region), but we have Category:Western New Guinea and several similarly named subcategories. We should either rename the article to Western New Guinea, or move the categories to Category:West Papua (region). I think the article move would be better. –Moondyne 02:13, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Referring to the geographic region of the western half of New Guinea island, I think Western New Guinea is better. I don't understand why Merbabu capitulated to the recent article move push, when arguments seems to me where on his side. I would support moving it back. To summarize the arguments: (1) Western New Guinea (or West New Guinea) are far more often used than West Papua to refer to the geographic region, (2) West Papua is very ambiguous as its most common use is for the province of West Papua (which is only a part of West Papua region), and is not to be confused with the West of Papua Region in Papua New Guinea, (3) Western New Guinea is not politically loaded whereas West Papua is. --Elekhh (talk) 03:55, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * My arguments exactly - and they are better arguments (of course). However, at the time I seemed to be almost (completely?) alone in making them. The argument for the move was (1) that's what independence supporters want (and they're poltically correct, and not to mention morally and fashionbly correct too, right?) and (2) as people with little experience of the issue found through google it's what the BBC and ABC use and (3) broad historical and academic use of West/ern New Guinea was completely irrelevant. go figure. So, rather than fighting fruitlessly against the trendy and morally correct mob I just capitulated on the title and then got on with improving the article, for which no one else seemed interested. --Merbabu (talk) 05:49, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Neutrality should take priority to "political correctness" of the day, and from encyclopedic perspective IMO "ecosystemic correctness" too. I know sometimes a week can seem an eternity, but I am afraid you closed that move discussion too early. However maybe is better to have a fresh start. --Elekhh (talk) 06:36, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * A very close read of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:West_Papua_(region) might be of some assistance in this ongoing issue - and the players involved SatuSuro 05:56, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As far I am concerned we should follow WP:NPOV which is -remember- one of the five pillars of Wikipedia, and which renders any "player"'s personal POV irrelevant. I see West New Guinea has 7,000,000 hits on google whereas West Papua has 629,000 (some of which refer to the newly established province). That places anecdotal links to ABC/BBC's "West Papua" into perspective. Most importantly we talk about a region that is a geographically clearly defined area, whereas politically its labels have been in constant change. We face now the issue that among categories there is a mix of the two terms which can really confuse readers. --Elekhh (talk) 06:23, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * well stated - on that basis it should be moved SatuSuro 07:06, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

So what to do? --Merbabu (talk) 08:35, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry I missed finding the earlier discussion, if I had I probably wouldn't have raised the issue again so soon. My concern was more about making the article and the categories consistent with each other.  I agree "West Papua (region)" is a slightly ambiguous term and hence favour "Western New Guinea" which clearly tells the reader this is a non-political/geographical descriptor.  I have no depth of knowledge in this area but reading the comments here and at the discussion I think the consensus is saying WNG.  –Moondyne 08:54, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Moondyne, sorry to have not addressed your initial question on the categories. We should get resolution on the name first. Ideally, if we change back to WNG, then we will have the following pages and related categories along the lines of:
 * Western New Guinea – the geographic region. The western Indonesian ½ of the island of New Guinea
 * West Papua (Indonesian province)
 * Papua (Indonesian province).
 * cheers --Merbabu (talk) 21:49, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Either reopen the old move request or start a new one. This time it will have to be closed by an admin, since the move will require deletion of the old page.--Elekhh (talk) 20:42, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Would you or Moondyne be kind enough to start that process? I agree with what both of you are saying. Might look better than me re-opening it!. cheers --Merbabu (talk) 21:49, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I am going to take a Wikibreak shortly, therefore I would prefer doing it in January. --Elekhh (talk) 22:15, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry this took so long, I posted the request for move here. --Elekhh (talk) 06:23, 17 January 2011 (UTC)